Transcript of my conversation with Tony Leepeters (Part 1) 4/10/2022

(0:00 - 1:20)

Hello everybody and welcome to another edition of Knocked Conscious. I do want to put a slight disclaimer on this before we begin. We are going to be talking about a very sensitive subject.

The subject is suicide. If you do feel uncomfortable, if you feel like there's something that you don't wouldn't want to hear about this podcast, I'd ask that you either listen to it with a friend or possibly avoid listening to it altogether because it is a very sensitive subject. Today, who's joining me? Tony from MJ News Digest.

He's across the pond in Europe, in England, in the UK. Tony, how are you doing out there? I'm doing really well, Mark. How are you? I'm doing great.

I've been wanting to talk about this for a while. So thank you for bringing this topic to our attention. And thank you for inviting me back.

It was a real honour to be invited the first time. So yeah, this is a sequel. Thanks.

Thanks, Mark. Absolutely. Before we continue, and we don't have to do it here, we can always do it later, but you said a couple of things on the last podcast that kind of came to fruition in the UK.

(1:20 - 1:52)

Did you want to just say I told you so or anything before we move forward? About COVID and the passports? Yes. Yeah. So yeah, that's a thing in the UK now.

So if we want to go to a pub or if we want to go to certain sporting events or concerts, we have to have our vaccination passable and prove that we've been vaccinated before we can enjoy ourselves. Isn't that fun? My mom and my dad are 77 and my dad's about to turn 81 this year. Wow.

(1:52 - 2:12)

They were anti-vaxxers until this decree came out. My parents are so afraid that they are going to shut it down for travel and flight that they just got the vaccination. And I was like, oh my gosh, if my parents can be scared into it, you know what I mean? Or convinced, whatever the term is, you know, strong-armed, I don't know what the correct term is.

(2:12 - 3:08)

But surely vaccination should, the incentive should just be to be vaccinated. It shouldn't be, there shouldn't be any other incentive. I agree.

I agree. So we had your I told you so moment. Thank you.

Thanks, Mark. Yeah, absolutely. You know, we say a lot of bold things on our show too, and a lot of it's not right or anything, but it's, these are opinions.

And when they do come true, hey, it's great to call your shot, you know? Exactly. So we're going to talk about some serious stuff today. We are going to make this a two-parter, Tony, as we had talked, we're going, this part's going to be more about the science behind the numbers, the data, the information, how to detect it, all that stuff.

And then we're going to kind of have a very personal story or share our personal stories. And we're going to broadcast that a week later. But if you do have a couple of stories that you can sprinkle in here, I do have a couple of stories to sprinkle in this episode.

(3:09 - 3:19)

But, you know, feel free, however, you're at your discretion. I know you have a few stories and I have one that that will be a long one as well. And I also have a couple of emails from listeners as well on the topic of suicide.

(3:20 - 3:49)

So it'd be great to read those. That would be excellent as well. Yeah.

So how did we want to start, sir, with some of these statistics? Yeah. So the World Health Organization say that one person in the world dies from suicide every 40 seconds. That was data, I think, from 2019.

So I'd imagine that since the pandemic, that's probably increased. In America, suicide is a 10th leading cause of death, and that's for all ages. And there's one suicide death every 11 minutes in America.

(3:50 - 6:09)

In the UK, the rate for females under 25 has actually increased by 93.8% since 2012. And the highest rate is still between men at the ages between 45 and 49. And that's increased since 2018.

And there are 18 suicides a day in the UK. So it's this is a conversation that definitely needs to be to be had and to be heard. Right.

And that's in the UK alone is 19 a day. 18. Yeah, it's 18 suicides a day.

Yeah. That's unbelievable. Yeah.

And these are real things. I mean, it's and it's and has increased, right? We've we talk we'll talk about social dilemma and how social media has affected it. And we'll talk about that.

How would you like to break it out? Do you want to start with certain demographics? Or what are your thoughts on that? Well, there was an interesting article in what's it called nature, nature, human behavior, and it was regarding the impact of the COVID pandemic on suicide rates in Japan. It was it's called increasing suicide following an initial decline during COVID-19 pandemic in Japan. Yes, I pulled that one.

I'm pulling that one up right now. Yeah. And it talks about this increasing concern that the coronavirus pandemic could harm psychological health and exasperate suicide risk.

But interestingly, the first five months of the pandemic, in Japan, suicide risks actually declined by 14%. And that could be because perhaps government subsidies, there were reduced working hours because of social distancing and various measures put into place for COVID. But during the second wave, so between July and October 2020, the monthly suicide rates actually increased by 16%.

And most of those the highest increase was for females, adolescents and children, which is really alarming. Wow. What do you think about that? Why do you think? So I actually have a thought about that.

When the pandemic started, and people we started working from home, I'm assuming you had this similar overall protocol. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

We, I think a lot of people got to kind of tidy up their house a little bit in between time between work. Yeah. So the first where the dip happened is kind of where people were very productive at home.

(6:10 - 6:30)

And then I think after that, those home projects tours got tidied up now that now you got inside your own head. Yeah, too much. And then it, and then you know, because you're kind of, we're always constantly improving, right? So when we have nothing else to improve, we start thinking about the, you know, the thought the mental part of it becomes overwhelming.

(6:31 - 7:12)

Hmm. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think a lot of people had too much time to think and also being at home to begin with was great.

But then, like you say, there's only so much you can do at home. Absolutely. Yeah, it's pretty, it's unbelievable, right? And I wonder if that's just going back to Japan, the increase during the second wave with females and children and adolescents.

Could that be? I guess for like a traditional housewife, that's putting a lot more pressure. The fact that, you know, the whole family is at home, schools aren't open, your husband can't go to work or your wife can't go to work. So perhaps that's to do with the pressures of keeping your home going.

(7:12 - 7:26)

Yeah, that too. I mean, have you ever taken a long trip with a, with a, you know, a significant other and like day six, day seven, you're like, yeah, I think we've been together pretty much just a minute too long. Yeah, definitely.

(7:26 - 8:04)

I don't get that ever, Tony, just because Megan listens. So, but no, you know, I understand what you mean by that. Do you think there are any other contributing factors to this, to this like dip and then increase? I think with the increase as well, for a while last year, I worked in a mental health crisis service.

And I definitely saw an increase in suicide, suicidal ideation and the pandemic. There was a lot of anxiety around the pandemic and that seemed to be fueled by the fear mongering, you know, in the press. And I think it just took its toll on people.

(8:05 - 8:37)

Yeah. Well, negativity does certainly work as a tactic, both in politics, in commercials, right? Like fear. Yeah.

Fear is a very, it's probably the most powerful motivator for people to evoke action or to, you know, incite some kind of emotion, right? What was that really good documentary series? You and Chris spoke about it once. I think you had a couple of episodes devoted to it. Yes.

I think, was it the, was it the BBC one? Century of the Self. Century of the Self. Yeah, Century of the Self.

(8:38 - 9:53)

It is an unbelievable, I wouldn't even recommend to listen to the podcast about it. I would recommend just watch the four hours of it. It's on BBC, it's on YouTube.

It doesn't cost anything. It is the most interesting piece on how we've been manipulated in that way. And I would recommend you watch each episode and then listen to the podcast that deals with that episode because it's like the bonus features.

It's great. There you go. Thank you, sir.

I appreciate it. We're always plugging each other, my friend. And follow all the Michael Jackson news on MG News Digest, of course.

Well, thank you. But yeah, to that point, like I said, I think it's, it's funny because I think initially any kind of self-reflection is good and then it gets, then it's too much, right? There's, it's like balance, like anything in the world. We, you work in the mental health profession.

I've, they just removed solitary confinement, I think in the state of California or New York. And I'm not a hundred percent sure which one. I think it might've been New York.

Cuomo may have removed it. And, and what they're finding is solitary confinement creates the schism, creates the break in your brain. That isolation of you with only yourself does not generally work very well for you.

(9:53 - 11:11)

No, a lot of people aren't comfortable in their own skin or perhaps uncomfortable spending time with themselves. Correct. Right.

And then that gets exacerbated, right? Because when you don't feel good, you withdraw, but the withdrawing increases the feeling of not feeling well and it snowballs, right? Yeah. It's like a vicious circle, isn't it? It's pretty nasty, pretty nasty. So how, do you want to move on to, what are your thoughts, the final thoughts on this, on the Japanese study? It's very interesting because what was it, what was the increase on that? 93% or? No, it was a 16% increase during the second wave.

Yeah. A 14% decrease. But females, yeah.

An increase in females, adolescents and children. Yeah. And that's where I feel like for us, if you notice like some of our themes, like children to me are, are victims in a lot of ways because they don't even know, you know, the, with the lack of consent, having who they don't get to choose their parents, right.

They don't get to choose their, their, their environment. It's tough. And I've seen so many increases with the social media aspect of it.

Right. Yeah. And you kind of touched on that with social dilemma.

(11:12 - 11:29)

Yes, exactly. Would you like to, would you like, do you mind if we kind of transition a little bit to that and then we'll talk about possibly, actually, how about this? Let's do this. Do you have a story of someone that you lost that you'd want to share with us? And we'll, then we'll go into this and then I've, I'm happy to share a story as well.

(11:30 - 13:09)

Yeah. So the first person I lost to suicide was a good friend called Mark. We were childhood friends.

I think we connected mostly because I had a traumatic childhood. He had a traumatic childhood and he was the only person that I kind of, you know, would talk about those kinds of things too. But unfortunately that followed him throughout his young life.

So in his twenties, he has real trouble with relationships. He tended to get involved in relationships a little bit too much. His girlfriend split up with him and he couldn't cope with it.

And he hung himself from a flagpole on a beach and yeah, just absolutely devastating. That is awful. That's awful.

And, and how, do you mind if I ask when's the last time you spoke with him before that? Before he did that? It was quite a while before that. It would have been a couple of years. And so of course there's guilt that, you know, had I, had I, had I continued to keep in touch with him and perhaps that wouldn't have happened.

But I think guilt is something that we all go through in terms of suicide. Guilt drives a lot of mine as well. Yeah.

And I'll share mine. Like I said, we're going to, we're going to have some deep, deep conversations about a couple of our stories. That's the one for sure.

But you know, look, everything's changed. I mean, we don't have our high school friends, our childhood friends, and I know you know this, but the guilt, it's such a tough thing, right? It's so hard to let go. Yeah.

I don't feel the guilt now. Maybe that's maybe just because I've grown up or maybe my mental health training, but yeah, for a period of time, a lot of us felt really guilty. But as I said, that's a completely natural reaction to losing someone in that way.

(13:09 - 13:27)

And there's also the survivor guilt. It's, it's even beyond losing that person, right? So for example, I was in a pretty bad car accident and the person who drove the car pretty much walked away unscathed. And he was definitely on kind of like a watch, right? Like a survival watch.

(13:27 - 13:40)

Yeah. Because I was in pretty bad shape. Yeah.

So it, it's such a, such a big thing. And how long did it take him to, to resolve that survivor guilt? Well, I got, I mean, I, I only broke my femur. It just seemed really bad at the time.

(13:40 - 13:56)

So, I mean, all, all in all, it wasn't as bad, but I don't think he ever got over it himself because he, he knew better, but you know, look, we all make, we all, we're human. We make mistakes. It's not, he put that on himself a lot more than anyone put it on him, you know? Yeah.

(13:57 - 14:12)

So, and, and that's, that, that's how it works. Right. But well, thank you for sharing your story about Mark.

Thank you. Are you in touch with anyone who knew Mark still? Yeah. Well, not now, but I was in touch with his brother for a while.

(14:12 - 14:29)

But yeah, I think it was just very hard for his brother. I know sometimes when people pass away, whether through suicide or any other death, you know, family members want to connect with friends and learn a little bit more about, you know, who they've lost. And that, that certainly happened for a while.

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Yeah. It happened in my story as well. We had like a beef and beer with his family, you know, after.

(14:36 - 15:01)

So yeah, I'll share, obviously, like I said, we'll talk about that. Okay. Well, thank you again for sharing.

I'm sorry for your loss. What, how long ago was that? That would have been around 1992, 1991. Okay.

So obviously people aren't talking at that point. I mean, that's such a taboo. Oh yeah.

Yeah. To discuss. I mean, I mean, it's still, I guess it's still taboo to, to a certain degree, but Absolutely.

(15:01 - 15:37)

The veil is definitely lifting, isn't it? Regarding suicide. We're definitely much more open, at least about our shortcomings. Right.

I mean, and that's the thing is we need, we need to be able to, to express our shortcomings without them actually being a negative thing that we have them. Exactly. It's just, it's just an accessory to our clothing.

You know what I mean? Like it's, it's my hair color. It's my, my, whether I have freckles or not, you know, it's just, it is part of who you are. Yeah.

We're multi-faceted beings. Extremely multi-dimensional at times too. You'd be surprised.

(15:40 - 16:21)

So going, going on to the social media, as we discussed, do you mind if I share these statistics off of that, that article I sent you from the sun? Yeah, go ahead. And what we'll do is I think, I think we'll just add all the links to the, to the header notes or to the liner notes as well, Tony, so that everyone can look at this. Um, this is one of the most shocking things that I saw statistically, you know, statistically, um, with social media.

So there's a documentary called the social dilemma. Chris and I did a, did an episode on the social dilemma. We did a deep dive, um, got some good response because we, we talked about some angles, you know, that other may others may not have this number among young women, girls.

(16:21 - 16:49)

I have to say girls, right, Tony? I mean, 10 to 14. I, I want to say young women, but that goes, yeah, girls, right. Um, the suicide rate since social media was available on mobile devices in 2008, between a women, between the ages of 15 and 19, the suicide rate has increased 70%.

(16:49 - 17:14)

Wow. And this is women 15 to 19. I mean, I remember 15 to 19 worrying about girls and maybe being able to drive someday, you know? And, but this, the real shocking one, it's a lower overall number, but the rate is what really shocks me is girls aged 10 to 14, the suicide rate increased 151%.

(17:14 - 17:18)

That's horrific. One and a half times. Wow.

(17:18 - 17:42)

And then what's interesting after that though, there's also a second study. It's just about hospital admissions for non-fatal self-harm. So I would assume possible, not enough pills or not, not enough cut, not deep enough cut.

Right. Or something like that. Right.

Where it's not fatal. Um, uh, girls 15, 19 is plus 62%. So it's right along the same rate as the suicide rate.

(17:42 - 17:53)

Okay. However, girls age 10 to 14, the suicide rate is 151%. The self, the self-harm rate rose 189%.

(17:54 - 18:15)

Jesus. Almost double. Why? Why'd you think? And they go through in the social, social dilemma for sure, because you're, you've got filters, right? And you're trying to look like somebody you're not, you're trying to look like a Kardashian, right? Aren't they in a lot of trouble right now for being poor or somebody saying they're not billionaires anymore? I don't keep up with the Kardashians.

(18:15 - 18:19)

I don't either. It just, sometimes it pops into my head because somebody's talking. Okay.

(18:19 - 18:32)

Somebody's talking about it, but they're kind of under some heat about their elitism, right? Well, this is kind of what that is, is you've got these filters on these women. And in one of the examples, it was like, oh, wow, you look great. You look great.

(18:32 - 18:46)

And then you get that one comment. Oh, your ears stick out too far. Right.

Yeah. And all you do is focus on that one, you know, one thing. Because I'm, I, we, we've talked about the school of common sense, right? Yeah.

(18:46 - 18:58)

We are animals, sir. We did evolve. Tribalism is real.

Fitting in is real. Like it used to be survival, right? Now it's self-survival in a weird way. No, it is definitely.

(18:58 - 19:20)

Yeah. Because if we feel outcast, you know what I mean? We, we definitely wouldn't survive in the wild, in the wild. Yeah.

In a sense, we're all looking for our tribe, aren't we? We are. And not only that, whatever we meet, we're trying to fit into any tribe almost. It feels because culturally it's almost like, I wish our tribe was just humans.

(19:21 - 20:17)

I mean, I, I don't understand why we can't have that just big tribe. Yeah. It doesn't make sense to me.

Now I do understand evolution in some of those things, but I think we can out, we can slowly remove those consciously. What are your thoughts? Yeah. I mean, let's hope that we can do that.

I definitely share that, that we should, we should be thinking of us as humans rather than British or whatever, you know. But it is hard though, because, you know, a lot of the technology, the advancements that we got are through civilization, through countries, through, you know, through these, through war, how many, you know, quote unquote advancements came out of war, like advancements in flight and safety and things like that. That's not a good thing.

It just happened to be hand, you know, hand in glove kind of. There's also a lot of advancements, especially tech, technologically that came from aliens. Yeah, true.

(20:18 - 20:34)

So where does it end? Are we humans or are we just beings? Yeah. And what's interesting, farming actually leads the field in like, fertility, because they did a lot for like cows, cattle and things like that. Fertility was a big, it's a big driver in the farm industry, for example.

(20:35 - 21:04)

Wow. So what is it? So it sounds like there's a lot of, especially regarding social media, it's teenagers comparing themselves to other people. I would guess that that is it.

Or if they see it's there, it's the desire to fit in so much with everyone that they focus on the one person with whom they don't fit in. Right. Isn't that interesting? And think about that.

It's very easy when you get a ding with a negative comment, right? Yeah. I mean, you've been on Twitter. Yeah.

(21:04 - 21:25)

I have to admit, I only use Twitter for like, happy birthdays, congratulations on downloads, and talking about either sharing your podcast or someone else's if someone's looking for something or whatever, right? That's what I use it for. But you've seen those holes that they go down. I mean, they drop grenades.

(21:26 - 22:34)

Yeah. It's a toxic place, Twitter at times. Yeah.

I mean, I tried to have a friendly conversation with someone. It didn't turn poorly, but the problem is our communication between each other is already poor. You know what I mean? So for example, somebody made a comment about Joe Rogan being an anti-vaxxer or something, get that anti-vaxxer, blah, blah, blah.

And I said, could you please clarify, because my understanding, he's not an anti-vaxxer, but he may have a concern or question about this vaccine, right? And the guy goes, so I said, do you mind if you enlighten me on what his stance is? And he goes, you'll have to ask him, but he has guys like Alex Jones on. And I'm like, what does that have to do with the vaccination comment that you made? You know, it's that conflation that we do, you know? So we push it all together and we all get mad at each other. And look, people are a lot more sensitive.

Some people are more sensitive to confrontation than others. Do you think people are more, maybe teenagers are more sensitive now than teenagers used to be, say 20, 30 years ago? Absolutely. This is my general feel about where we've gone.

(22:34 - 22:46)

And I just picked up a book called The Coddling of the American Mind. It's by a gentleman named Thomas Haidt, H-A-I-D-T. I think he's either American or he's like Nordic.

(22:47 - 23:03)

And he's been on Joe Rogan before, and I've just watched some interviews with him, and he's very intelligent. So I'm very looking forward to that. But it's my opinion that growing up, I think getting material goods was much more challenging.

(23:04 - 23:14)

Like we didn't have everything at our fingertips, right? Amazon here can deliver. I've actually ordered something and gotten something between 4 a.m. and 8 a.m. the next day. Wow.

(23:15 - 23:24)

That's a little too easy, right? Let's not kid ourselves. That was not an easy thing back in the day. So I think we just had thicker skins in general because life was a little more challenging.

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And then as our basic needs got met, as these things got easier, we need to next look at the next thing to fix, right? Yeah. Everything is too immediate at the moment. But I also think we should all love each other and care for each other.

So I'm in a really weird spot here. What are your thoughts? We need to heal the world, Mark. That's what we need to do.

(23:49 - 24:01)

You know, it would be great, wouldn't it? Oh, yeah. So you tell me, what do you think about it all? What, regarding social media or? Yes. In the social media, that was a tangent, I'm sure.

(24:03 - 24:46)

Yeah, definitely. I think there's a lot of comparing and I completely agree with everything that you've said, but also things like, did you watch that? It was heavily promoted on social media. There was a series, I can't remember how many seasons they had on Netflix called, it was about teen suicide.

Was it 13 Reasons Why? Yes, I did. I watched all of those seasons. And there seemed to be, I mean, it was kind of put out as if this is suicide prevention, we're having a really, and yeah, there was merit with that, that they were doing a, I guess it was educational, but there was also at the time, there was a lot of kids being influenced by that.

And which again, I find really alarming. It almost heroicized her. Exactly.

(24:46 - 25:05)

In a way, is that kind of what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, and that, I don't know if you ever had that, but I've heard of stories where like young teenagers get into like a fertility pact and they all get pregnant together at like 16 or 17. Okay.

(25:06 - 25:25)

It kind of reminds me of like, that's kind of what this does. Like, it's almost like, hey, let's all get together and do this because she did it, you know? Yeah. I don't know.

And I felt the first season was pretty good, but I felt like it went very dramatic after that. It got, it almost got too cartoonish in a way, like too extreme. That was like all the things were happening to everybody.

(25:26 - 25:30)

Yeah. I only stayed around for the first series. I thought it was good, but yeah.

(25:30 - 25:48)

The first one was good. The first one was the best one of the group. But I don't know.

I do wonder why, was it put out to shine a light on suicide or was there something underneath that? That's a good question. And you and I tend to pull back the veil, don't we? A little bit. Well, we try to.

(25:48 - 26:02)

You know? And that's the thing. So these are the statistics, right? We've obviously seen some demographics. Obviously you and I, what, middle-aged white guys? Yeah.

(26:03 - 26:19)

Can you share that statistic again? The one 45, was it 45 to 49? 45 to 49, yeah. What was that one again? Because I'm smacked out right in the middle of that one. Just that it's the highest rate of suicide between 45 and 49 in the UK.

(26:20 - 26:41)

I don't have any figures for that. What are your thoughts on why that is? I think one of the reasons could be perhaps someone or a man is finding it difficult to cope with the pressure of providing for his family. Perhaps there's work issues.

(26:42 - 27:15)

But also, I think as well as men, we tend to find it really hard to open up and talk. And also, we don't promote our own weaknesses or believe that we can be weak. We should be strong men.

But as we were saying earlier, there's so many facets to everyone and they should all be embraced. And I think for some men, it's really hard to open up and discuss these kind of things. Not only is it hard for the man, but it's hard for other people to, I think sometimes to have those conversations about men.

(27:15 - 27:32)

Traditionally, women tend to be able to talk about emotional things a little bit better than men do. So I think there's a lot of work around that. And I'm guessing that's probably some of the reasons why there is such a high amount of men of that age group committing suicide.

(27:32 - 28:10)

And also, I think as well, if you get to maybe statistically between the ages of 45 and 49, there might be more people that are split up or that have ended relationships or marriages. And at that point in your life, you're probably thinking to yourself, well, am I going to find someone else? So that's going to add an extra layer on top as well. Again, that goes back to comparing maybe, you know, comparing yourself with your friends who are in relationships.

What are your thoughts? Why do you think it's so high for men? Yeah. So to your point, you had mentioned it earlier, the comparison thing. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who was credited with the quote, comparison is the thief of joy.

(28:10 - 29:04)

Ooh, that's good. Have you ever heard that? Never heard of that. Yeah.

So it is a very good thing. Now it's funny because like you and I both have podcasts, right? And we look at our metrics, but I never use the metrics as a comparison to another podcast because I don't know what they provide and who their audience is, right? They could just be more popular, right? They're better. That's an okay thing.

I like to measure against, but if you ever do it as a comparison, you will always be disappointed, you know? So I try to do it like with a measured metric kind of from a logical point or from a, you know, pragmatic point, not from an emotional, oh, they're better than us kind of way. Yeah. But to your point, everyone's doing that, right? Did you see, have you noticed that they have these studios that you can rent out that look like corporate jets so you can take a picture on them and put them on your Instagram? No.

(29:05 - 29:32)

I mean, they've got full studios that are built that make you look like you're- Oh, that's crazy. That's crazy. Right.

So everyone wants to be the best, right? So they're, it's all this fake and that's what's sad. It's like, it's almost like our currency. It's digital now.

You know, it's not real. And when you compare yourself to Vanessa, what's the Vanessa Rabbit from Roger Rabbit, right? Like if you're going to, or Jessica Rabbit, you're not going to, you're not going to win, right? I'm sorry. You're just not going to win.

(29:33 - 30:01)

Yeah. But I don't think you're not, you're not going to win if you compare yourself to anybody. To anyone.

Correct. Thank you. Excellent point.

But to the point about the, the middle-aged, so there's a couple of points of this, and this actually recently came to my attention. I'm a, I'm a constitutionalist. I'm a libertarian.

I am a second amendment guy. So it's, it's very hard for me to talk about this, but I'm going to be honest. I will be sharing that canopy website that I told you about.

(30:02 - 30:21)

There is a show called Suicide Examined and the statistics are as such, 60% of gun violence deaths are by suicide. Wow. 60% of United States deaths by handgun or by gun are suicides.

(30:24 - 30:31)

Wow. So here's the thing. Men tend to be better at doing it when they do it or when they attempt.

(30:32 - 31:15)

Because if you notice women attempts, I think are higher than men. Okay. But men, when they cut, they cut deeper.

When they, when they go, they use guns. They don't use pills. Right? So the example was a woman who takes a handful of pills still has like maybe an hour.

She could call for help and get her stomach pumped. Right? You could go through your process of, I don't want to die. Right.

I don't know how much a jumper, how far after they jump decides I want to live. Right. But at that point it's obviously too late, but with the way women kill themselves, generally they haven't like carbon monoxide pills, things like that.

(31:15 - 31:28)

They can actually get help before it's over with a gunshot. You pull the trigger. It's such a short time and the immediacy of the effect, you don't have that chance to actually change your mind.

(31:28 - 31:39)

So why do men go for that immediacy then? Men, I think that's a biological thing. Men are more assertive, violent, physical. Okay.

(31:40 - 31:48)

That's my opinion. I could be wrong, but I think to your point, men being less emotional, right? They're like, well, this is now a task I need to do. Yeah.

(31:49 - 31:52)

Um, if that makes sense. That's interesting. Yeah, that is interesting.

(31:53 - 34:02)

So what I've noticed is just men are more aggressive with the decision once they make it. Okay. And they have less of a time to really change.

Now, but to your point, not just talking about it would help, you know? You've mentioned it and what's interesting about this is like, where do you feel that you can interfere with someone or where can you feel you can help someone or intervene? Like at what level, how far can you go? I think you can go all the way. You can talk someone out of their suicidal ideation. I've always said that every suicide is preventable.

I'd like to think that every suicide is preventable, but it starts with that conversation. I was talking to someone a couple of days ago and they were talking about the life and soul of the party. Like how do you, I've had examples in my life with friends who have been the life and soul of the party and no one knew that they were going through whatever they were going through and had someone, you know, maybe picked up on a certain sign because typically there are signs that someone is thinking about ending their life.

Typically, if they could pick up on that and then start that conversation, I believe, or it's my opinion that we can talk those people down. It might not be immediate. It might take quite a period of time, but it's just important just to keep hammering away at that conversation.

Are you okay? I've noticed that you're not quite yourself. Do you want to talk about that? And actually talking about suicide as well. There's a real myth that if we mention the word suicide to someone who's contemplating it, that that's going to trigger them to kill themselves.

It's not. I think the more you talk about suicide, the more you mention the word suicide, it takes away that taboo. It does.

It almost takes away the power of it. Exactly. Exactly.

(34:03 - 34:34)

Oh, well, to your point, it's funny. You were talking about life of the party. Do you remember Robin Williams, for example? Yes.

Yeah. You would never have guessed that that person was hurting. And it's my opinion because I'm semi-Robin Williams-like, not as obviously I don't have the talent that he had, but I'm that like scatterbrainy.

I could see that easily happening. I think he had some kind of heart condition that turned and then it happened. It kind of happened interestingly for him.

(34:34 - 34:43)

Didn't he have some brain condition, didn't he, that was diagnosed after he died? Yes. He probably had some CT as well. And that's something I'd like to talk about.

(34:44 - 37:14)

Do you mind if I sprinkle in one of my personal stories? Go for it, Mark. Sprinkle away. So Megan and I were heading back to Philadelphia.

I'm from the Philadelphia area and we flew back and there's a German club that we're part of and my family is and everything. And it was October of 2019, very early, the first week. And I used to play soccer growing up in the German club.

We were actually very good. I think our 34, 35 majors were in the world or state or country championships or something. Unbelievably, we had exchanges with Germany a lot because we were a German club.

So this kid was the star player and his dad was a coach and he was a junior. So it was this guy, junior. I come home and I was like, yeah, I was thinking about running into this guy and that guy.

And my mom said, oh my gosh, someone said there was a funeral for that name. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that guy's dad died. I just, you know what I mean? I went right to the father, right? Oh, what a shame.

Turns out it was the junior who killed himself. And 44, 45, the same age as I am. I grew up, you know, with him.

I always bumped into him. It's, you know, at school or the German club or whatever, because we played, we were teammates and everything. I was never really close with him, but he was like a pretty popular jock.

He'd actually played soccer at Temple University, I think. And I think he had played soccer at, he was a coach at somewhere. But it's my opinion that he had two kids, right? And you're like, how does he leave his children? But I saw a picture of him and the kid that I saw, you know, I feel like emotionally, he physically started looking like he felt emotionally.

He looked awful. And I don't mean that with any disrespect or judgment, but he wasn't the person I remember seeing growing up. You know what I mean? He'd like let go.

And I personally think it's why we did an episode on CTE and TBI and brain damage and things, concussions. Those are a big play. And I think it's soccer actually, or football in your case.

That actually is a very underdiagnosed condition. CTE is a big one. There was a, have you heard of Troy's story? No.

(37:14 - 37:51)

Yeah, it was, there was like a website. I think it started off with a blog post. It was a wife set this up after her husband passed away.

He was, I think he was a school administrator, really successful career, great family, absolutely adored his wife, had a really close network of friends. And she received a call one day to say that her son, her husband had killed himself. And it turned out that through like investigating why it happened, it was because he had had this, was it CT? Yeah.

CTE. Yes. CTE.

Yeah. I think that was- I just pulled it up as well. Yeah.

(37:51 - 38:06)

It was after like a concussion from an accident and he'd been addicted to opioid medication because the pain that he was experiencing was so great. And he was scared that this addiction was going to, was going to be uncovered. Yeah.

(38:07 - 38:29)

Yeah. It's pretty crazy. And so just to let you know, and I don't know if you listened to that episode, but in our, we, there was one article that was published with 111 NFL players, ex NFL players.

110 of the 111 had signs of CTE. Wow. And that included a kicker and a punter, I think at least one kicker and one punter.

(38:30 - 38:36)

Right. And we're talking only one of 111 people did not have it. That's crazy.

(38:36 - 39:02)

And then we obviously have different varying degrees, right? To that end, I actually think when is somebody going to use CTE as the, I killed my wife and kids defense? Like OJ could seriously have CT. I'm not defending the actions of OJ Simpson, but he, it could easily have been due to that lack of, it's really impulse control that you have. Yeah.

(39:02 - 40:23)

But, you know, once again, it's just, I like to bring up ideas and tell, you know, tell me what you think. Yeah. I think that's really interesting.

There's definitely merit. There's definitely merit there. So I don't know what to say to that, Mark.

I mean, I haven't really heard much about CTE and but there definitely seems to be some something there from what you're saying. And I will admit, I think that's part of our age group. Yeah.

Is there any statistics around that and suicide? There is statistics around CTE and suicide. I'll pull some things together. You know what? Maybe we'll do one.

If we do a follow-up, maybe in a few, maybe three, four months, a couple of months, we can do a follow-up and do it, maybe sports related and show because you and I shared some stories this week that happened or recently, right? Yeah. Do you want to share that, the football player or the footballer, the soccer player? Yeah. I don't follow football.

This came from a mate, but there was, I think his name was Lee Collins, I think 31, 32. He was found dead in his hotel room. I can't remember how he killed himself.

I don't know if they reported that. But yeah. You shared something as well, didn't you, Mark? Yeah, I did.

This week alone, there was an ex-NFL player. His name is Phillip Adams. He gunned down five people and then killed himself.

(40:24 - 40:45)

Wow. And his sister, right? Here's the clickbait, okay? He wasn't a monster. Sister of an ex-NFL player, blah, blah, blah.

She says, she claims that it was because of all the injuries that he went through, the head injury. His mental health degraded fast and terribly bad is what they said. Wow.

(40:47 - 41:52)

And it's underrated, right? This warrior sport stadium bravado thing, right? Yeah. It's just, it can have detrimental effects that we're seeing. And it's actually pretty prevalent among women as well.

Concussions among women in soccer specifically with head balls and accidental kicks to the head are increasing, or at least the reporting of it's increasing pretty greatly. Wow. And then you've got guys like a wrestler, professional wrestlers, right? Chris Benoit killed his wife and two children and then killed himself.

And then you look at him and obviously he had PEDs, steroids, whatever, but there was also the CTE from night after night getting dropped on your head. Wrestling obviously... Oh, sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say there was a documentary on Netflix.

I can't for the life of me think it was... Yeah, I think it was Netflix. I can't remember who it was about, but it was a sports personality in America. And I think he had killed a couple of people and it turned out after his death that it was to do with some injury that he had to his head.

(41:53 - 42:00)

Yeah. There was one of the clock tower, if you're familiar with the shooting in Texas and the clock tower in the sixties. Yeah, I'm familiar with that.

(42:00 - 42:44)

So that gentleman, there was actually a brain, there was a tumor growing on his head, pressing against a portion of his brain. Wow. So that when they found that out after obviously, because what happened was he started having some behavioral changes.

So obviously there are many times it's emotional, right, Tony? But we're finding that there's some physical ailments that can actually exacerbate these conditions as well. Yeah, it's really interesting. And just going back to what you were saying earlier about guns, do you think that if the gun laws weren't as they are in America, that there would be less suicides or do you think? Um, well, I think maybe the attempts would be higher than the results.

(42:44 - 45:09)

Right. Yeah. There'd be a greater gap because they try it a different way.

And the way it makes sense is like you have, when you take pills or when you're doing carbon monoxide or something, there's time. Time is a very important element, obviously, to get to make, you know, to keep you from dying, right? If there's a longer time between when you start your attempt and, you know, the end that gives you that cushion, whereas gun violence wouldn't. Personally, I, this is, I have a weird thing about guns.

I hope maybe this one's going to bite me in the butt and I'm okay agreeing to disagree, but in America, the freedoms about this, the freedom of speech and the freedom of the bearing of arms kind of go hand in glove for me. And it sucks that people are irresponsible with guns. They should not be.

You need to be a responsible gun owner. That said, it's kind of like speech, right? You can't just remove freedom of speech because one person saying crazy shit. Yeah.

Yeah. I agree with that. But why, why is that? I understand freedom of speech, but why does there have to be a bearing of arms? What? Yes.

Well, there is a tipping point of that point, just to be clear. I want to be very, to your point, very common sense. Like I'm wondering at what point that I would go, okay, now it's too much.

Right. Like, cause, cause I do don't, I don't want bad for anything. Ultimately back in the day, the right to bear arms was really the last, it was kind of like to, so that we wouldn't have another dictatorship.

It was really the last, it's the last check and balance on the, of the people against the state. Plus back then they had to be part of the militia, right? They were minute men. Like they, they didn't have an army yet.

And they also hunted bear. I mean, they hunted for food. So everybody had guns.

Like guns was not really a thing to worry about, but it's a very nuanced question, right? Yeah. Without, without digging too much of a, putting my foot too much in my mouth, but I'm wondering if bearing of arms is still, still relevant. You know, we're not, we're not hunting Well, it does bear the question, but because ultimately like, if what's our way of protecting ourselves against like a military force, such as the United States military with a peace shooter, like it's just not going to happen.

Right. So logically that doesn't really make sense. Right.

(45:10 - 46:21)

So I'm very open to, I, it's my opinion that there should be like a test for it. Uh, in some way, like I took like an 800, like 800 question questionnaire to be a pizza hut driver. You know what I mean? There's no test to buy a gun.

No, there's no test. I can walk in right now and buy one. Wow.

I could do it. I could have, I could probably get, well right now because of the gun stuff they're trying to thing, there's probably a couple of lines out there at all the stores, but I could within a couple hours, I could, I could send you a picture of a brand new gun that I purchased. Wow.

Yeah. It's look, I'm not, is it too easy? Yes. Absolutely.

Like if you're asking me if there's better ways to do this, yes, this shouldn't just be like, I can just be me and just walk in and go, hi, you know, I don't agree with the way it's done. Correct. You know, it's interesting.

I would like to do, you know, maybe we should do a, a constitutional one and we can, you can shit on all our constitutional rights. Damn it. No, but, but I think that's something I'll always be open to talk about.

(46:21 - 46:42)

I promise. I think that's only fair because didn't you do an episode on the Royal family? I did. Yeah.

So actually Chris and I did. Well, wait, I'm looking forward to our next one. We're going to do UK versus us.

Yeah. That should be fun. So yes, but back to guns, let, um, to your point, it, there needs to be something changed.

(46:44 - 48:30)

I, but we're not, see, no one wants, no one wants to talk about what needs to be changed. They just want to put their piece on it. Right? Like I want it to be X and these other guys want it to be Y, but no one's talking in the middle and saying, can we agree on something? You know what I mean? Yeah.

Both parties are digging their heels and look, we, we can't get together and move forward together until, I mean, compromise sucks, but compromise is compromised for a reason. Right? Exactly. So anyway, um, yes, but I, to your point, yes, I think gun violence would, or obviously changes.

Now what's the question on that? How would you want to change it? Just remove it altogether or, or, or what on the suicide, on the, on the suicide subject? Like how, how would we implement some kind of gun removal or gun prevention? Well, from a, someone with suicidal ideation from having a gun. Okay. But I mean, like, would you test for it or? Yeah.

I mean, when you need to have a mental health test before you buy or get a license for a firearm and there should be some more stringent measures in place to buy a firearm. But then I guess if it's all to do with bearing of arms and free speech, I can see why there isn't. Yeah.

But there's an interesting part of that because I've read that second amendment and it says the right to bear arms shall not be prohibited, but it says for being, for a well-regulated militia. So they already had some kind of regulated militia piece in there. And I'm wondering, can they use the regulated part as their loophole to make some kind of testing to make, to regulate it? Maybe.

(48:31 - 49:07)

You know, I, that's what I was always curious about. Cause once again, I will dissect anything. I will talk about any subject openly.

Cause I don't have an answer till, till it's finalized, right? Like every answer is possible until we have the final answer. So, um, I, it needs to change though. I think I absolutely believe like, look, I think that having children should be licensed, Tony.

So I don't know. I mean, we do it to drive. I mean, you're talking about, you're talking about creating someone and, and, and like molding them into what you do for 18 years and then sending them out.

(49:08 - 49:33)

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point.

It's pretty dangerous, right? It could be. But anyway, so back to this. So I think 45 to 49 men, I, this is one of the weird subjects.

And please tell me if you think I'm a little off, but we feel like we're not the contributors that we used to be to the world. Ah, okay. Cause I feel like we're told that we're not the contributors that we used to be the world.

(49:33 - 49:43)

Do we have to be the contributors to the world? No, we don't. But if you think about our age group and when we grew up, we were right. That was our childhood probably.

(49:44 - 49:49)

Yeah. I think they're being told that they're not as important as they used to feel they were. Okay.

(49:50 - 50:25)

I don't, I, I really think it's like a misunderstanding if, if I were to be clear about it. Um, but imagine like, I don't know an example. Let's see.

Like, well, you mentioned your childhood a little bit. Did both of your parents work or? Uh, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So you and I are probably in that weird transitional generation where we both had both parents working at some point in some way or another, but prior to us, right.

There would have been that, you know, men bring home the bacon, that BS talk that we had back in the day. Right. Yeah.

(50:25 - 50:35)

And I think with that change, that's where a lot of that mentality change, but it's hard to change culturally because when you're growing up, you're kind of living in a vacuum in your family. Right. Yeah.

(50:35 - 51:15)

It wasn't until I left my house and went to college that I really saw gray in the world other than black and white myself, you know? So, but I'm also biased, Tony. I'm a white guy. No, it's an interesting point.

It is an interesting point. And it's one that I think I need to try and get my head around a little bit more. Yeah.

And look, I, these are opinions, nothing. I will sit with anyone and have a conversation about anything. Now what's interesting, like, I don't know if you're, are you familiar with like the meritocracy argument? I've never heard that phrase until today.

(51:16 - 55:37)

So meritocracy. Yeah. So meritocracy basically is saying whoever can get the job done, it doesn't just tell me who, you know, who has the merit to get it done.

Right. Well, the problem with that is there is a bias to it because not everybody starts at the same point. Right.

Like I, I have an advantage living in a suburb over someone like in a, in a deep city who doesn't have the same school budget that a suburb might have. Right. So our starting points are different.

So meritocracy is really hard to say everybody equal or just on their merits because not everybody's equal to start. But that's also life though. Right.

I mean, I, I broken my leg before and that sucked, but I dealt with it. Right. And I'm not, that's not to belittle any of the other stuff.

I'm just, these are all the ideas coming up, right. All the ideas are bubbling up and we have to kind of hit them one by one in that way, in my opinion. Yeah.

So any final thoughts on the 45 to 49? No. All right. Are you exhausted already? I'm quite interested in the females and like you were talking about younger girls and teenage, teenage girls, young women in mental health.

I definitely see in the last 10 years, I've seen a rise in personality disorders, personality disorder. There's various different personality disorders. I don't need to educate anyone on those, but with personality disorder, especially chronic variations of that comes an increase in suicide, suicidal ideation or attempts very often.

And you're absolutely right. Very often it will be females and they will make an attempt, but it won't lead to suicide. And I wonder if the higher rate of females under 25, I wonder how much of those are experiencing personality disorder.

I think there's a bit of a trend at the moment, especially with social media and various TV series or Netflix series that some teenagers hold mental health or personality disorder as a bit of a badge of honour. I can remember it was about five years ago, there was a real increase in young people being diagnosed with depression and anxiety. And that seemed to be fuelled by social media and global trends, I guess.

But what are your thoughts on personality disorder and women? Do you think that could be why the rates are so high? There is also social media. Suicide is a mental problem. It's much more of emotional than a physical issue.

Would you argue that point? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay.

With that, there are a couple things in my opinion. I hope that I, I always talk too much, Tony, so I apologise. But let's start with diet and the child being born.

I think the food is not as natural as it used to be. Yeah. People in formula versus breastfeeding, different, you know, additives and I don't know, pesticides or whatever to, to meals, GMOs being in food.

Have you noticed that women seem to be, what's that called, maturing quicker? Possibly? No, I haven't noticed that. So there's a little bit of a, like, physically maturing quicker because of, say, steroids or hormones in foods or things like that. Okay.

I think that diet is a huge thing that's under, under, undervalued in this. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So nutrition, the benefits of nutrition on mental health.

Right. So I think that the, many of the children start off on a really bad foot with all the distractions that parents have in the world. So, you know, they get fast food or they get easier meals, right? It's just an easy thing to do.

Let's throw a, you know, a, whatever pre-made thing in the oven and be done with it. Um, microwave, right. That can do some, we don't know all those effects.

(55:38 - 58:03)

So I think diet is part of it. And then I do think the, it's my opinion that the culture of this victimization, like being a victim is all we can be now. Yeah.

And it seems like the bigger victim, it gets the bigger attention, right? The squeakier wheel gets the bigger grease. Yeah. So if you've noticed, everyone's been a victim, even look, I'm a F I'm an affluent middle-aged white guy, middle-class, very content in love.

And look at me. I'm, I said, I was a victim 10 minutes ago, right? Like that. I think that's part of it to your point.

The badge of honor is a great point. It's how much different can I be? And I need to make you accept me. Yeah.

And that goes, that's exactly what you were talking about at the beginning, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's unfortunate.

Um, because I, when you get, I think you can run a country with a billion people. If you run it, like China runs it. I mean, I'm not saying it's good, but it's effective, right? We're talking about working efficacy, efficacy, efficacy, with that, whatever, whatever that word is, but we're, we're 300, for example, the United States, like 330 individual victims right now.

It's a very hard to agree on anything. When we're so individualized, I'm not, that is not a statement to go the other way because freedom and I'm always about personal and individual freedoms. But I also wish that we would recognize that we need community too, in a way, you know? Um, I'm in a, I'm this weird guy.

Like I I'm a pro choice guy. I used to be pro death penalty. Now I'm against it.

Um, I I've never been on the church, the God side, but I also understand that God, like the whole church was about community. And I wish we could find something to replace God in today's world and, but keep a community, right? That makes it our tribe and we can all hang out together and it'd be great. Tony, we're all humans, right? Can't we just be the human tribe? And right now we can't, can't we just all get along? Can't we? Rodney King did say it best, my friend.

(58:04 - 58:55)

What are your thoughts on that part of it? Or on what, on the nutrition and just the general kind of cultural change that we're going through? Yeah, I do. I do agree with that. And I think, but I think also that that, that change is always going to happen.

So that, so if, if things like nutrition and community changes is affecting people's mental health and suicide rates, then that's only going to get worse as the years go by because food is going to get faster. Life is going to continue to change. Right.

And, and to your point, um, I think, I think that we've chemically or slightly changed our genetic or our mental structure with our diet or with our nutrition in a way. I mean, that's part of it, right? That's not all of it. Oh yeah.

(58:56 - 59:38)

And not just suicide. Obviously I'm thinking, I'm saying mental illness start, in my opinion, can, you know, nutrition plays a part in the mental illness. Mental illness can grow, exacerbate, and then turn to suicide, right? Yeah.

In this case, what are your thoughts about the multiple personalities or the personality disorders that you experience? What are your thoughts about, what are your thoughts about all of that? What, what could be causing all of that? I don't know. I've never really thought about what could, what could be causing that. Generally, most people that come into our services or the services that I've worked, worked out throughout the years have had some kind of traumatic experience in childhood or perhaps a head injury, you know, like we spoke about before.

(59:42 - 1:00:29)

It's interesting because personality disorder, I think it was only recently, it was actually classified as a mental health condition. And I can remember at least 10 years ago, personality disorders, they weren't so prevalent within the service. We'd be dealing more with schizophrenia, bipolar depression.

But now it seems to, it seems to be that personality disorder is kind of taking over those traditional mental health conditions. And I don't know why. I don't know the reasons why it could be, it must be a whole variety of different things.

It could be like you say, from diet to social media, to influence, to the way we've been brought up. But there's, yeah, there's definitely something going on there with personality disorder. Really interesting, but also it's a horrific condition to be suffering from.

(1:00:31 - 1:01:49)

And what's what I found interesting now, I could be incorrect. Do you find it more prevalent among female, the female sex and the male sex, or we're talking biology here, not gender, or I'm completely biological. Yeah, there's definitely more females.

Or I've come into contact with definitely more females with personality disorder than males. Not to say that, you know, I haven't worked with males with personality disorder, but yeah, definitely more females. But there's also the theory that mental health is increasing to do with the pharmaceutical industry.

And that perhaps, excuse me, that perhaps not everybody that goes to see their doctor is actually experiencing mental health problems, but they're given a shitload of tablets and things just get worse. Yeah. And that goes into kind of nutrition on my end, like supplements, any kind of medication, mental health, things like that.

Cause I've, I've noticed an increase. Well, I've certainly noticed an increase in the dispensing of mental health pills. And I'm wondering if maybe someone goes in with a condition, gets handed these pills, the pills actually create a change in the, in the way the person feels a chemical change that somehow gets ingrained and then could get passed on.

Who knows? Right. We don't know. Right.

(1:01:49 - 1:03:44)

And also you might be given a certain medication, but then you might have to take another medication to offset the side effects of the original medication. 32 medications later, you have an itchy left ear, right? It's like the weirdest thing, right? One of my favorite commercials, there was some anti-stroke thing. It said a side effect could be stroke.

And I'm, I'm like, I, I guess you have to say that. And that's more like the legal part of it, right? Like there's to your point, there's no common sense. Exactly.

Where has common sense gone? Yeah. And that's, that's Mark. And why do you think suicide is such a taboo subject? Among men because of the shame to your point.

I, it's my opinion that we are supposed to be the strong people, right? We're supposed to be the ones who don't have problems. We're supposed to carry the weight, but that's a very antiquated thought process, isn't it? It is. Yeah.

It's a thought process that's been carried down from generations. Right. And with the increase in technology though, the change from that mindset to the new one was so drastic that I, I feel some people got left behind a little bit.

And I don't know if that makes sense, but you know, it's kind of like you got to catch the bus, right? Or else you're, you're, you're not getting to your destination or you're left behind. Right. Yeah.

And I feel the people who left behind probably feel more loss and they're also in that old school. So they don't talk about it. That then snowballs, right? How about you? How about you? What do you, what do you think? What do you attribute it to? Yeah, I think, I think it's, I think it is shame.

(1:03:44 - 1:04:33)

I think it's, there is a degree of feeling like we said before, not, not just men, not just for men, but for women as well, of admitting to weakness or of admitting to the underlying things that are bringing on their suicidal thoughts. You know, it's one thing to admit that you're suicidal, but it's something else to admit what's going on underneath. And also it's such a personal thing as well.

Suicide. Yeah. Yeah.

And I'll, one more thing I'll share like is hormones is some extent too. I had my blood work done and I've had some, I haven't felt great, like not physically not great, but just more like mentally cloggy. I've had some physical intimacy things as a middle-aged man would.

(1:04:34 - 1:05:26)

Low testosterone, my friend. So I found out I was like below the lowest number. So I started doing some TRT, testosterone replacement.

The last, this is my fourth week. And I will say that my cognition has upticked slightly and my sharpness is uptick slightly. Wow.

So I think that, that health, there is a definite body, mind, you know, emotional, physical condition as well. Definitely. And we don't even realize like as our body, as we get older, some of those hormones get less produced and we're wondering why we feel sluggish or this or that or the other.

And I will say I, I started taking that and it's, it's definitely shown slight uptick in that, in my, in my mood for sure. Wow. So you think that the hormone decreasing was because of age rather than.

(1:05:26 - 1:05:46)

It's age and time. Yes. Over time testosterone does.

I had a vasectomy at 34. So it's my opinion, my body already knew that I didn't need as much testosterone for the other stuff. So I like the range is 300 to 1000 and I just got tested about a month, two months ago and it was like 236.

(1:05:46 - 1:07:00)

Wow. So I was below even the bottom number. So he's like, Hey, let's do this.

And I said, let's try it. And it's definitely had an uptick for sure. So, you know, getting checked with a professional doesn't hurt either, you know? Yeah, exactly.

And also there's a real like just going back to the body and the mind's connection. There's a, there is a definite correlation between that. I've started up a walking group on Facebook and I've noticed within myself, if I walk say 15 kilometers, walk for an hour and a half, my cognitive abilities are increased.

I feel a lot better. And I don't think it's just because of endorphins. I just think that there is, there's increased blood flow.

You're getting more oxygen to every place. I mean, there's so many benefits to walking for example. Yeah.

Yeah. Exercise is a great stress reliever as well. Definitely.

So that's a good point for the, to help with combating if you feel this way. Right. But unfortunately it is, but I think that only works at perhaps the initial stages, because I think once you really get deep into those, those feelings, when you go down that rabbit hole, motivation goes out the window.

(1:07:00 - 1:07:11)

And absolutely. You start, your reality becomes, becomes a bit skewed, I guess. Very myopic, right? You get a very like, you're the walls close and you see one option.

(1:07:11 - 1:07:49)

Yeah. Tunnel vision. So to that point, this was my thought.

Let's, I'd love to go through some of the warning signs and then I think we should talk about how if we see someone in this situation that we think might feel suicidal, how, how to approach them or how to talk to them. Would that work for you? Yeah. And one of the emails from one of our listeners talks quite a lot about what to do in those situations.

So it'd be good to include that as well. Yeah. So let's do some of the warning signs and then we'll do, we'll, we'll introduce the email and then we'll talk about the other ways.

(1:07:49 - 1:08:27)

Okay. So in your, in your experience, what have you, what are some of those warning signs that you've seen and researched about that are really important that we need to be aware of? Getting their affairs in order is quite a big one. Like giving away possessions, giving away prized possessions.

Also being more helpful than they've been before. And that, that sounds a bit strange because really everyone should be helping each other. But if you notice a dramatic change like that, that someone's actually, you know, taking the time to be, to be a little bit more helpful, there could be something else going on.

(1:08:27 - 1:09:16)

And normally there isn't just one, one sign is that there's, there's a variety of signs. So getting their affairs in order, perhaps they might make a will or give away things, talking about suicide, or maybe not talking about suicide, but saying things like, maybe in a jokey manner, oh, I'll just be better off dead. Or I wish I hadn't been born.

I think if you hear those kinds of things routinely, then that could be a cause for concern. Isolation, withdrawing from others is a big one as well. I know that in my experiences, or during one of those, that, that definitely happened.

I completely isolated from family, from friends and from people. Do you want to share a little bit about that, or do you want to table that for later? We'll table that for later. Okay, excellent.

(1:09:17 - 1:09:43)

And just feeling like helpless and hopeless or feeling that they're trapped, they might say, well, there's no way out of this situation, or they might feel that they're in a situation that is going to be a lot worse than it is. What about you? What kind of signs can you think of? So all of those that you mentioned, I just pulled up a list. So I'm, I've, I cheated.

(1:09:45 - 1:16:11)

But increase of dependent substances, like drugs or alcohol is a big one. I, you know, I've noticed it among people close to me and as well as myself, right? And the drug can be anything. Like, like I mentioned, mine is food.

And I'm happy to share. I'm happy to share that once we go through these two pieces, because I don't want to, you know, this is very important. But acting, to your point, you're talking about being more helpful.

One of the signs, like day of or with in a very short timeframe is an increase in mood, like a positive uptick. Because the decision has already been made in their head. Yeah, it can bring a sense of calm and Yeah, relief, relief is one.

I've heard, I've heard the story of, I heard that Chris Cornell, the, the musician, the night that he killed himself, he was super affable and super like, gregarious and came out, I think even came out for an encore, like something that he would never have done in his normal troubled state, or, you know what I mean? What he thought was a troubled state. So I found that interesting. Isolating is much not sleeping enough or sleeping too much, right? Yeah.

Pulling the covers over your head, very big sign of depression or the inability to sleep because you're just burdened, right? Yeah. Mood swings, those types of things. I don't want to say funny, it's interesting.

I was talking, I was driving with Megan, we were going to a store and I pointed to my head about something. She goes, are you going to shoot yourself or something? She was making like a weird giant go. Yeah, actually let's do it.

Let's just get it done with now. And like I made a self-deprecating joke and didn't even realize it. Right.

You know, so it's always in there somewhere. You know what I mean? It's always something that's always not, it's not at the immediate, but it's in my reach that I need to keep away, you know? Yeah. The last one I'd like to have is that talking about being a burden to others.

Have you, I feel like I've experienced that one a lot where even though they're the helpful ones, they feel like they're the ones draining, right? Yeah. Have you had any personal experience with anything like that? Yeah. Definitely felt that I was a burden for other people, that the world would be better off if I wasn't around.

And that ties in with this feeling of, I guess, self-loathing and self-hatred or that's a strong word, isn't it? But feeling that you're not worth, you're not worth much. Right. These are feelings.

I mean, it doesn't make it a reality. These are exactly, exactly. Yeah.

These, these are feelings, but like we said earlier, once you get into that state, those feelings completely take over you and they become your reality. I remember during one of my attempts, I felt that, yeah, I felt that I was a burden, but it got to such an extreme level that I felt that I, I was diseased and that if anyone came into contact with me, they, I would pass this disease onto them. Yes.

And that's completely illogical, but. Right. And that increases the isolation on top of that.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. I can't even, yeah.

I know what you mean. And my, do you mind if I share mine really quickly before we move on? So mine was never, I've never had a direct attempt. I've had ideations out the wazoo, but I've never had a direct attempt.

But what I did growing up was I had a really bad car accident when I was 13 and I gained 70 pounds over a two-year period. And I basically just decided that food would be my drug. So food was my crutch, anything emotional I'd eat.

And I'm only five foot eight. I got up to about two, I got to 297 pounds is what I remember on the scale. Wow.

And I'm, there's pictures of me where I'm complete, I'm unrecognizable. And as a matter of fact, I posted on Facebook 17 years ago. There's a picture of me with Coolio in Las Vegas and a picture of me just last week.

And if you look at the difference, you can see, I, I feel like I exude the health or the, you know what I mean? The health that I, that I feel now. Yeah. I look different.

So my, my thing was always, I'm just going to eat myself to death. I'm going to have a heart attack at 40. No big deal.

You know, I, it was just a passive way of doing it. And did you actually say that was a conscious thought that you were going to eat yourself to death? Oh yeah. I remember John Candy dying at 43.

I remember seeing the, the thing, John Candy. I go, I'll beat him. I think that was the first thing I said when I saw that article or whatever I read.

I said, I'll be, I'll beat him to the grave. Right. And I said it kind of jokingly, but I, no, I don't, I didn't want to be here.

I'm not going to lie. I just didn't, I didn't feel like I wanted to be here. That's interesting.

There is a, there was a term for that. I can't remember what it is, but there's a word for someone who in effect commits suicide over a long period of time, because traditionally we think of suicide as being quite an immediate thing. Correct.

You think it was an attempt, right? An attempt and either a failure or a success. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm going to look that up as we talk. Yeah. And that's what it was.

And can I be honest with you, Tony? I couldn't, I don't know if I could kill myself with my parents still alive. Right. And what causes the mental problems in my brain is what causes me to keep from doing that worst thing that you could possibly do.

Right. Is just shame. If I brought shame upon my family, like, I don't know if I, I couldn't live with that.

Literally. I know that sounds awful, but you know what I mean? Like I, I literally could not do that to my family. So it's interesting that the committing suicides brings about this feeling.

I mean, committing suicide is infused with shame, but then if it's completed, it then brings shame onto the family or to the loved ones. Yeah. Because our, our family was, I mean, my parents were both born in Germany.

(1:16:12 - 1:17:00)

So 1940 and 1944, you kind of know that time period in Europe. Yeah. When they came here, they met here and the pride of Germany, you just couldn't do wrong.

You know what I mean? You had to show what you show people, what you show people outside is not what was really going on inside. Yeah. So when you heard, when you heard really interesting comments like, oh, your ex is such a great person, whatever, and you're like that person, how come I don't see that? You know, everyone else is telling me that, you know, that's kind of our family, you know, that you had to put up that facade of perfection and the shame that goes with any of that other stuff.

(1:17:00 - 1:19:39)

Yeah. Because the judgment, the Germans are extremely personally judgmental in that way, you know? So it's a, it was a culture thing for me for sure. And is that still prevalent now? Yes, but I've kind of stepped a lot away from my family.

My family's I'll share that probably with you a little offline. I'm happy to talk about it. I just don't want to record it quite yet.

I've got thoughts about doing, doing episodes on that, but I will say this, my parents, they, they truly do love me. I am fortunate. I'm blessed.

I was blessed to have the childhood I had, but there were some challenges too, right? Just like anything else. Yeah. So, and it's, it's how we process them as well.

But I will say I've, I've had to the point of like physical harm, I've had three real cases where I had traumatic trauma or traumatic injury to my brain. I had a hatchback car door slam on the back of my head, like top of my head when I was like seven or eight, someone closed it when I ducked my head in. And then I had, I flew out of a car at 50 some miles an hour, hit my head then.

And then I had a car where I was really scooted up in the front seat and an airbag blew up in my face on the passenger side. So it kind of knocked me like pretty loopy. So I, I feel like those, those do create some scars and those haven't, you know, those are always mental, those will create mental issues down the road.

So I do, there is a big physical, mental, I mean, the physical and mental go hand in hand and glove as well. Yeah, definitely. So we went over, sorry, go please.

No, no, go on, you go. Oh, that was it. I was just going to move on.

So, so are you concerned that mental health, your mental health is going to be impacted in the future? And if so, is there, what can you do to, to try to offset that? Or um, I don't know if you want to know that answer. Cause I've had conversation with, with Megan about it. Um, I don't know if, if what we're talking about is outside of the realm of my possibility at some point in my life.

It's all, it's, it will be when I, when I'm at the point where I feel like my personal pain is too, is too great. And the burden on others is too great. Yeah.

And you bastard, you got to make me think about that. Don't you? Um, yeah. So we're going to have a two minute drying eye period.

(1:19:40 - 1:20:25)

But is that burden a reality though? You know, we kind of talk about when we're, when we're, when we're in that point, we do think that that burden is a reality, but perhaps it isn't actually, you know, real, like you say, it's feelings, isn't it? You're 100% correct. And I think there's a, there's a range of that, right? Like would I want Megan to sit at my bedside 24 hours a day, dipping, dipping a, a sponge into water and putting on my lips? No, no, that, that takes away her life. Right.

Like that's where I would, like, for example, that's one example. Right. Yeah.

And that's not exactly a life for me either. No. Lying there, having my lips dabbed with a wet sponge for two years.

(1:20:26 - 1:21:20)

God, that's a lot to deal with, isn't it? It really is. And that's, that's why this is very important because there's a very fine line between like, I, you know, assisted suicide, like euthanasia, when you're at the point you're, you're 82 years old and you've got so many health problems, you know, you just want it to go away. And before that point, you know? So, and I don't know, it's, it's a, that's why we're talking about it.

Right. Yeah. But in, in your, in your experience, in my experience, we've lost very close loved ones that we know we could have helped or have helped or had helped.

Right. Yeah. And we'd want to keep that.

We want to continue that. Yeah, definitely. So once we see the warning signs, Tony, this is where you, this is where I think you really added to a lot of things because I don't know how to talk about it.

(1:21:22 - 1:24:01)

So what do I do, man? Well, if you see the warning signs. Yeah. Yeah.

What do I do? Don't, don't be judgmental. Try to be sympathetic and listen and don't just listen, but listen effectively. It's a different kind of listening than when we're just having a chat with our mates, you know? It's just really listening and trying to pick up on, on, on maybe body cues or pitch in voice.

I think everyone should have listening training or effective listening training. It really helps in, in, in all kinds of different situations, but it's also really important to take the person seriously and not to minimize what it is that they're saying. I shared with you a while ago when I was going through something, reaching out, I reached out to a friend and her response was, do you know what, Tony? I've got too much going on in my life at the moment.

I can't deal with your shit or words to that effect. And, you know, I wasn't taken seriously, but also what that did for me was it, it fed into this feeling of being a burden. So, yeah, that didn't do me, that didn't do me very good at the time, but it's really important to take the person seriously and to ask them direct questions, ask them, are you thinking about committing suicide? There's also like a level of suicide risk.

So by asking certain questions or direct questions about suicide, you can kind of gauge where they are on that level. If someone's at a low level, they might just have fleeting suicidal thoughts. They've definitely got no plan.

Is that like a scale or is it just a general kind of idea? Yeah, it's kind of like we talk this during suicide prevention training or suicide training. So I guess it's a general scale. So yeah, so low would be that they wouldn't have a suicide plan and that they're not actually going to attempt to do it or thinking about attempting to do it.

They've just got some, maybe some low level ideation. Moderate would be that they do have some suicidal thoughts and a vague plan. High would be that they do have a specific plan.

They do have suicidal thoughts, but they're not actually saying when they're going to commit suicide or that they actually will do it. But you want to watch out for severe. That's when they've got their suicidal thoughts.

They've got a specific plan. They know how they're going to do it. They've made arrangements and perhaps they've even got a date or a time of when they're going to do it.

(1:24:02 - 1:24:20)

Also, it's important that it's not just about us talking to people and trying to talk them out of it. It's following that process up. So it could be helping someone to arrange professional help and maybe going along with them for these sessions or maybe it's a telephone call, whatever.

(1:24:21 - 1:24:42)

Just being there for that person. It's really important that someone who is feeling so empty and so on their own and so wrapped up in their, I don't want to sound negative, but so wrapped up in themselves, they can't help that. It's really important that they have someone with them for that journey because it could just get them out of it.

(1:24:42 - 1:26:42)

Yeah. So have you, obviously you've been instrumental in approaching others with that. Would you say, have you ever approached a complete stranger or have they all been somebody that you've known, that you've noticed? The majority of them have been during my professional career.

So when I was working in the crisis service, yeah, in effect they were strangers because the crisis service would be someone perhaps has been admitted to hospital because they've tried to commit suicide or they're at crisis point and then they come out of hospital and they go to the service for a short period of time. It could be anything between three days and two weeks. So as soon as you meet that person, you're sitting down, you're assessing that person, you're talking to them about their crisis.

So yeah, I guess they are strangers. But I guess it's easier in that setting because there's a process and it's not just you, you've got your work colleagues to also give some input as well. Right.

Now these people have been, have come to your location. Yeah. Correct.

Or were assigned in some way. So I'm wondering like out in the world, you're noticing someone who's kind of in the corner or something. I mean, how bold have you been to walk up to a complete stranger and say, hey, you okay? Everything all right? I've never done that.

I've never done that. Yeah. I feel like that's the one, those are the ones that are really helpful if, if we have the guts to do it.

Right. Like, cause that, obviously we, it, it's hard to talk with friends, but it's way easier with friends and like, you're going to talk to a complete, someone you've never walked up to and go, Hey, are you all right? I noticed you're not feeling great or something. But also at the same time, I think when you do, I think it's easier to talk to a stranger about these kinds of emotional issues than it is to a friend.

(1:26:42 - 1:27:04)

Yeah. I think it's easier to talk, but I just don't know what that initial, right. The, the first contact, I guess, in a way, but you're right.

It is because it is anonymous then almost. Right. Yeah.

And now I'm thinking about all these times that I've seen, maybe someone sitting on a, on a bench by, by the beach on their own. And I could have gone up to them and just said, you're right. But yeah, I didn't.

(1:27:05 - 1:27:28)

Yeah. It's weird. Cause I start playing those through my head too.

You know I, I'll, I'll share some of the stuff on that. You know, we talked about having that second kind of episode that we'll do. So yeah.

So, but it's vitally important. You have to talk to them. Just say, Hey man, are you okay? Yeah.

(1:27:29 - 1:28:04)

And I know a lot of people, everybody's a little different, but if there's someone, you know, you might know, you might have the correct sensibility of a way to talk with them and connect with them, use that, that friendship, use that familiarity with them as, as your tool to help connect. Yeah. And just let them talk, you know, and then they'll probably say something that you don't agree with, but don't, you know, don't judge them, try not to act shocked or lecture them on, you know, and definitely don't say anything like, Oh, pull your socks up or, you know, just snap out of it.

(1:28:04 - 1:28:07)

Just do it already. That's always a good one. Yeah.

(1:28:08 - 1:28:34)

I've seen it, but you know, I mean, and that's the thing is, I think another thing we can help with this is we're on the other side of it, right? To your point, your friend's point. She's like, I don't have time for this shit. Yeah.

Words to that effect. Right. I have since spoken to her about it and, and yeah, she, she did apologize, but she was going through an extraordinary amount of shit herself at the time.

(1:28:35 - 1:28:52)

I can only imagine. And I absolutely get that at the same point though, we all should know that we're going to be in that same place that that person is now and how much we could use someone when we're going to be in that place. Yes.

(1:28:52 - 1:29:02)

Good point. But also, but also we shouldn't be driven to do something just because we might be faced with that in the future. We should be driven to help people because we want to help people.

(1:29:02 - 1:29:09)

Not. Yes. I just meant a general compassion, not in a, not in a pet robbing Peter, pay Paul, like you owe me.

(1:29:10 - 1:29:14)

It's not an you owe me thing. It's more of a, well, all of us are good. Let's put it.

(1:29:14 - 1:29:22)

Yeah. In a broader sense, all of us are going to be struggling at some point in our life. It's good to help each other when we go through it because we'll eventually be there at some point.

(1:29:23 - 1:29:26)

Yeah. Kind of. I mean, I guess it's more of a compassion.

(1:29:26 - 1:29:33)

I'm trying to come at it from a compassionate sense, but I'm an American, Tony, we do things totally different. We noticed that. And we're going to talk about that.

(1:29:34 - 1:29:42)

You've got guns. Yeah. You know, I'm going to, like I said, I'm very open to talk about it, but it's, I'm, I'm weird about that one.

(1:29:42 - 1:29:58)

I don't know. Anyway, back to the. Are there any tips that you can think of? You know, I, to your point, you just have to say, I'm concerned about you.

(1:29:59 - 1:30:22)

That's what I say. And the, I think this plays into a little bit of alcohol and, and, or, um, suicide and, and, uh, addictions kind of play a little hand in glove, right? Yeah. Like mental problems you hide with drugs or alcohol or food, and then that makes it worse.

(1:30:22 - 1:30:24)

So your mental get worse. Right. And then it spirals.

(1:30:24 - 1:30:42)

Right. Um, I think, I think we have to be very careful that be very aware of that, but when we see something, you know, it's best to pull them aside and say, uh, man, I'm, I'm a little concerned about, you know, is everything okay. Hmm.

(1:30:43 - 1:30:46)

But it's hard. It's hard. And you and I've talked about it.

(1:30:46 - 1:31:27)

What about you've met somebody who you've done it before and you run out of tools in your toolbox, you know, the fifth, sixth time you're talking to the person, what do you use? You know, how, how much more, how many more resources can you get? I guess you just try to in the moment research and, and, and just find other, uh, other utilities in your toolbox to help. And actually another thing that really helps as well is this idea that whatever someone is going through is transient. It's not always going to be like this because when you are in that moment, possibly one of the reasons why, uh, cause there's, there's always more than one reason why someone wants to kill themselves.

(1:31:28 - 1:31:45)

So possibly one of the reasons could be that they just don't want the pain to carry on, or they can't see that their future is going to get any better, but to let them know that what you're going through is transient. It won't always be like this. This is a moment in time, uh, that's really valuable.

(1:31:46 - 1:32:05)

Um, I've definitely found that professionally and, and personally to be a quite valuable bit of a toolkit. That is an excellent point. Um, and the other thing too, uh, like we had talked about made the disclaimer, Hey, if you're feeling like this could trigger, you don't listen to this alone.

(1:32:06 - 1:32:12)

Listen to it with a friend who cares about you. There are some amazing documentaries. I saw one, the choice to live.

(1:32:12 - 1:32:28)

I think I shared with you. It's about people who attempted suicide and, and went through and found this new lease on life out of it, right? They realized, Oh crap, I didn't want to do this. And now they have a whole new lease on life to, to really live their best life.

(1:32:29 - 1:32:41)

So it's, it's interesting seeing the viewpoint of people who have survived attempts. And often a lot of people that survive really serious attempts go on to help other people. Absolutely.

(1:32:42 - 1:32:45)

Yeah. Absolutely. 100%.

(1:32:45 - 1:33:18)

Um, if, okay, so we've kind of covered that. I think the last part that we should probably cover is like, if you're feeling a little off, what, what do you do if it's you and you're listening to this and you're going, Hey, I kind of resemble some of that. Would you, you have any advice for anybody who's kind of feeling this way? What would be the first thing to do, or a couple of steps to take? The first thing to do, sorry, the first thing to do would be to talk to someone, talk to someone that you feel comfortable in talking to.

(1:33:18 - 1:33:29)

It could be a family member or a friend, or it could be, I mean, here in the UK, I'm sure you have a similar service in the U S the UK. We have a service called the Samaritans. So you can phone them 24 hours a day.

(1:33:30 - 1:33:42)

It's a free phone call. And they're qualified. They're trained to talk people through any kind of suicidal ideation, depression, any kind of crisis that they're going through.

(1:33:43 - 1:33:50)

They're a really valuable and important resource. Do you have something similar in the U S I'd imagine you would. Yes, we do.

(1:33:51 - 1:33:59)

I think we have, what's like a suicide hotline of some sort. And I think there was actually a pop song written. Maybe two years ago, three years ago.

(1:33:59 - 1:34:04)

It's like one 800 something. That's the actual number to the suicide hotline. Oh, wow.

(1:34:04 - 1:34:22)

So if there's a pop song, it starts, it's like one 800. And then the number that's actually in regards to suicide. And then we obviously had a couple of brushes with, with artists, right? We had Chris Cornell followed by the guy from Lincoln park, right? Chester Bedingfield.

(1:34:22 - 1:34:57)

And they had a close relationship. So it's very interesting how, how the one taking his life, I don't know if that re-triggered the other guy's evaluation on his own, you know, but yeah, uh, the one thing for, for me, to your point, the first thing you do, if you feel anything, like if you resemble any of this, talk to your closest person that you know, or the one that, to your point that you trust the most, if you don't feel like you have that, get professional help. Yeah.

(1:34:58 - 1:35:01)

Get professional. It saved my life. I'm not going to lie.

(1:35:01 - 1:35:16)

Yeah. Um, I, um, with my story, I was, you know, I, like I said, I was going to eat myself to death, but I'm not going to lie. It did just start increasing in, in my early, uh, right at 39, 40, you know, those thoughts started getting more and more.

(1:35:17 - 1:35:32)

Um, and I felt to the point where I needed to just talk to somebody and I'd never talked to a psychologist, psychiatrist, anybody. I went and I saw a gentleman, uh, who's an NLP, which is neuro-linguistic programmer. Yeah.

(1:35:32 - 1:35:49)

Are you familiar with that philosophy or that discipline? So they go through your subconscious, like semi-hypnosis-ish kind of just meditation-y kind of stuff. Um, I walked into his office the first time he looked at me and he said, he cocked his head, he said, you're different. Wow.

(1:35:50 - 1:36:00)

And I lost it. And, uh, he saved my life. And you lost it because somebody got you.

(1:36:00 - 1:36:03)

Yeah. Or someone connected on that level. Yeah.

(1:36:03 - 1:36:11)

Yeah. Wow. And he, well, the thing was, the thing is in my head, I'm sure that's what I thought, because he's such a professional.

(1:36:11 - 1:36:17)

He realized that that's what I was missing in my head. Yeah. Does that make sense? Like he, he knew what to say.

(1:36:17 - 1:36:21)

Yeah. It doesn't mean I felt like I was right. Like no one got me.

(1:36:21 - 1:36:24)

I'm sure people got me. I might not have felt that way. Right.

(1:36:24 - 1:36:41)

But he knew the exact thing to say, to get me to literally like, I like snapped back to reality for a second. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then I work with him and, um, I never did, I never did, uh, any kind of pills or supplement.

(1:36:41 - 1:36:50)

Um, but I, and it wasn't until after that, like I never was into anything. Food was my only drug. It was crazy.

(1:36:50 - 1:37:12)

But, uh, I, it's, what's interesting is we talked about, I was 297 pounds and all I needed to do was address my, I was probably 250, 260 when I met him, 270. But all I needed to do was address my emotional side and my weight literally melted off because it was no longer my crutch. Wow.

(1:37:13 - 1:37:18)

And how directly those were connected. It's unbelievable. I'm now sitting about 215.

(1:37:20 - 1:37:48)

So I'm still like a bigger dude, but I've always been like a thicker kid. So, um, but when you, when you say that the weight just melted off, were you doing anything because your emotional state had changed? Were you more motivated or were you doing more exercise? Were you looking at what you were eating? Yeah. What's funny about it? It, it, I had such an emotional calm that anytime, any stress where I would have reached for food, I didn't.

(1:37:48 - 1:37:53)

Wow. But it wasn't, it's so not conscious. If that makes sense.

(1:37:53 - 1:38:04)

Like I wasn't, it's my opinion that diets fail because all you think about is the diet. So when all you think about is a diet and food, guess what you're going to gravitate towards. Right.

(1:38:04 - 1:38:17)

Yeah. When I address my emotional stuff, the food became unnecessary. So were you able to address, were you able to address your emotional side yourself or was that through the help of.

(1:38:17 - 1:38:20)

No, that was through the help. Yeah. I needed a lot of help with that.

(1:38:21 - 1:38:29)

Okay. But we also talked about some of the other things that I experienced during that. And that really changed my whole path in life.

(1:38:29 - 1:38:33)

Wow. So I'm a weirdo, man. No, that's a real profound change.

(1:38:35 - 1:38:45)

Yeah. Yeah. And if, if I, and it sucks because you don't always feel like you have the choice when you're in that state.

(1:38:45 - 1:38:56)

Yeah. But if you took it, you'd be, you'd be, you'd be helped. If you take the first step, just the littlest first step, you will get the help you need.

(1:38:56 - 1:39:00)

I think most in most cases. Yeah. So.

(1:39:00 - 1:39:20)

And it's, so for our point of view and trying to help someone, it's trying to elicit that first step, isn't it? It is. Or even just being kind of like an ambassador for that first step by showing someone that, you know, there is someone that's there and there's someone that's listening and taking them seriously. That might then carry them further up the steps of getting professional help.

(1:39:22 - 1:39:32)

I've used, I've used this before. I've, I know someone who is very close on the edge. And I said, I know it's your life and you have every choice, but you're going to be missed and loved.

(1:39:33 - 1:39:38)

You're, you're loved here by me. At least me. I know there's at least, I could give you a handful of people.

(1:39:39 - 1:40:12)

You will be missed if you're gone. That's, I, because the isolation is the one that I think is the real battle. And there's an interesting experiment where, and it's a little bit more to do with drugs or dependency, but it does fall in the hands of this is, have you ever heard of like the rat colony where they took like 20 rats and they had them all isolated into individual boxes and they had a, like a rat community where they could all intermingle? No, I'm not familiar with that.

(1:40:12 - 1:40:20)

So I'll, I'll send a Ted talk. Maybe I'll put it on there. But basically what it was, was they had like a rat community, Ratville, and they had two types of water.

(1:40:20 - 1:40:37)

One was regular water and one was laced with like a drug. And in the community, in the rat community one, the majority drank the regular water and every once in a while went to the other one. But in the one that they were all isolated, they almost systematically hit the one with the, with the drug in it.

(1:40:37 - 1:40:42)

Wow. And it's just, you know, it's just a social thing, right? Yeah. We are social.

(1:40:43 - 1:40:58)

I mean, the whole point of the tribalism is out of the social hierarchy, right? We need that connection. And the first thing I tell somebody is, if you're gone, I'll miss you. Yeah.

(1:40:59 - 1:41:03)

And it can be a stranger. Cause I miss, I feel humanity, man. I feel the world.

(1:41:05 - 1:41:36)

You know? So have you been in situations where you have approached a stranger then and had that conversation with them? Yes. And on that point, do we have every, cause that's the story of Jay that I'll share on the next, what we'll do is we're just going to take a quick pause, obviously, and then we'll, you and I'll come back. But is there anything else about this part of it that we'd like to talk about before we share our stories? Um, yeah, I'd like to read the two emails.

(1:41:36 - 1:41:43)

Please. One of them does have quite a few tips and it's from someone who's been in mental health for quite a long time. They're quite long.

(1:41:44 - 1:41:48)

So bear with me. Not a problem at all. I am muting my microphone.

(1:41:48 - 1:41:58)

Okay. So this is from Daniel. Daniel is a good friend and he has worked in mental health for 11 years and Daniel works in my team, actually.

(1:41:58 - 1:42:26)

So Daniel says that he's worked within mental health for 11 years and suicidal thoughts and ideations and attempts on life. He's come across quite a few of those during the years and they've been primarily linked with mental health conditions such as depression. Many people with depression can turn to self-coping mechanisms like Mark mentioned, an example of which can be alcohol consumption, which can then fuel the depression and that can then increase the suicidal thoughts.

(1:42:27 - 1:43:01)

Men find it really difficult to talk about their feelings and thoughts and how this could negatively impact their mental health. But why is it that men won't talk to their friends? Surely this is the biggest question to be looking at with the number of men and young men, especially who lose their lives to suicide each day. Dan says, is it pressure on men to provide for the family or is it a fear of being viewed as a failure? Dan goes on to say that women are more open to talking about emotions and feelings than men are finding it hard to start that initial conversation because they fear that they could be judged.

(1:43:01 - 1:43:26)

In Dan's professional experience, he's found that women tend to have more suicidal thoughts and they voice them, but the death rates are higher in men because they don't voice them or talk. Dan says that he once worked with an outreach client who always vocalised about wanting to end their life. But she said that the one and only thing that always stopped her was thinking about her children and not wanting to leave them behind.

(1:43:26 - 1:43:43)

And often a parental or family member suicides can lead to increased risk of suicide within the family down the generations. A larger percentage of men who commit suicide don't actually have dependents. So maybe that's a reason not to live.

(1:43:44 - 1:44:14)

And often the life and soul of the party can be excellent at hiding how they feel and present as having the perfect life. They're always joking and laughing, but actually what they're doing is they're using that to distract and disguise how they're feeling. Some reasons that Dan has come across for these suicidal thoughts through depression could be things like losing employment, not being able to provide for loved ones, feeling inferior to friends or loved ones and not making the grade or not feeling part of the group or viewing yourself as not making the grade in comparison to friends, family or colleagues.

(1:44:14 - 1:44:39)

Dan says that his dad and his granddad were raised to believe that showing emotion is a weakness and traditionally it meant that weakness wasn't an option as a man. Given the right, excuse me, given the right environment and space, men will talk about their struggles, pain, concerns and feelings. There is a solution to every problem and men need to look after their mental health to talk it through and see a light at the end of the tunnel.

(1:44:39 - 1:45:06)

But they might not be able to do this alone and they shouldn't need to feel that they're doing it on their own. Three quarters of suicide by men in the UK, I think what Dan's trying to say is that three quarters of the suicide rates in the UK are by men and the thoughts of being a burden and loved ones being better off are the highest factors and men's repetitive thoughts leading to this tunnel vision thinking can be a factor. Men often feel they need to be the tower of strength.

(1:45:07 - 1:45:24)

Maybe your own thoughts continuously going around in your head leads to wanting peace to end it all. It's imperative to get these thoughts out of your head. If you can't talk to friends or family, talk to a stranger, talk to your dog, just sometimes just talking and vocalising your thoughts and hearing them out loud can help.

(1:45:24 - 1:45:43)

So what more can we do to change this? What can you do to change this? Well, asking someone how they are can be the quickest conversation of our days. But revisit this, asking your friends, are you really okay? And let them know that you are that person that they can tell stuff to. Just let them know that it's me and I'm here.

(1:45:43 - 1:45:59)

Families, loved ones and friends take on the pain when someone takes their own life. And the pain for that person may be over, but talking and seeking help for that pain can leave before taking that path. Could mental health on school curriculums be the answer? Possibly.

(1:46:00 - 1:46:22)

Let's encourage care and compassion from an early age and encourage talking and inform young people about depression and mental health issues. It's no longer a taboo topic. And Dan ends with, ask a friend today, how are you doing? Are you really okay? That kind of carries on with what we were talking about, Mark, about it's not just asking if someone's okay.

(1:46:23 - 1:46:36)

It's about carrying on that conversation. Yeah, the follow up, right? Like, okay, you say you're okay, but are you? Why? How? Okay, how aren't you okay? Right? Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

(1:46:36 - 1:46:52)

Oh, continue, please. Was there anything in there? Was there anything in there that jumped out that maybe we haven't covered? Absolutely. I think the overall, I think it was a great summary of kind of everything we discussed, right? Getting help and asking.

(1:46:53 - 1:47:00)

Who is it, Daniel? Yeah. You said he's been in this for about 10, 12 years? 11 years. 11 years.

(1:47:00 - 1:47:10)

That's right in the middle. Thank you, Daniel, for sharing that. Do you have anything to add to that portion before you share the other email? Just to thank Daniel for that.

(1:47:10 - 1:47:14)

I thought that was really insightful and hopefully. Absolutely. Thank you.

(1:47:14 - 1:47:18)

Okay. So this is from another dear friend. This is from Jess.

(1:47:18 - 1:47:32)

Jess says that suicide has touched her life in a number of ways. And she thinks that this is a subject of conversation, which is much needed at the moment. So Jess has been touched by suicide in a number of ways.

(1:47:32 - 1:47:46)

Her aunt and her two friends ended their lives. And Jess herself has made pretty violent attempts in the past to do the same. Jess says that I think to consider suicide and to reach the crossroads where that is considered an option is clearly tragic.

(1:47:46 - 1:48:17)

However, there is help to those struggling with finding a handle on emotions. And Jess has been fortunate enough to find professionals with whom she could talk freely, openly and honestly with without the fear of being told what to do or any kind of judgment or even just judging about suicide plans. And I think for someone just coming off from what Jess has written, I think for mental health professionals, I guess it's easier to talk to someone with suicidal ideations or talk about suicide plans without being shocked.

(1:48:17 - 1:48:33)

But if you haven't had that kind of training, and you're talking to a friend, and they're talking to you about their plans, that can be really shocking. But you can't approach it from any level of like shock or judgment. Anyway, so just going back to Jess.

(1:48:33 - 1:49:10)

Jess says this sensitive and empathetic response is key to providing a safe space to talk. And in doing so, it paves the way for a level of self acceptance. And it helps with the time to slow down thoughts, enabling more reflection and hopefully inner peace.

I think people who are carers, friends, family of someone in the midst of suicidal feelings often feel a sense of paralysis and want to do. As someone who is frantic for someone to sit down and have a couple with, it's often the low key engagement with another human being that can make a massive difference. For me, finding a friend to share an enthusiasm for gardening was a great source of strength.

(1:49:10 - 1:49:36)

Finding this common ground made me feel immediately more relaxed and in my own time gave me a stronger command of my feelings and have accepted them in their full human range. I think to feel accepted in suicidal feelings is absolutely key, both your own self acceptance and the wider acceptance of others close to you or part of your community. As someone who has lost people to suicide, I think it's important to allow your feelings to be felt fully and not punish yourself with a time frame for grief.

(1:49:37 - 1:49:58)

It's also possible to feel a surge of anger and rage and also to elevate them as a hero or a flawless person. There are of course going to be substantial unanswered questions and I think the not knowing and never knowing is one of the hardest aspects. There is the possibility of reliving and your memories being drastically different to the decision that the person made to commit the suicide.

(1:49:59 - 1:50:13)

For example, he was always a life and soul of the party and you're left with disbelief as to how he could do this. But this is an enormous challenge for family and friends and for anyone going through this. I can only say I feel your pain and grief and that all your feelings count.

(1:50:14 - 1:50:32)

Thank you very much, Jess. Thank you, Jess. Something did certainly stick out and you touched on as well is when you speak with someone, measured response, non-emotional, because that can exacerbate their emotional state.

(1:50:33 - 1:51:00)

Yeah, exactly. Thank you, Jess, for sharing that. That was a beautiful thing.

To the point of gardening too, it also gives you something to do. It does become probably a healthy distraction. Yeah, definitely.

Anything like that, anything that can be a distraction. It's about getting yourself out of your inner mind and dealing with external stuff. Especially if we feel that we're not contributing or we're a burden, what's better than doing something that contributes? Exactly.

(1:51:01 - 1:52:13)

You know, being productive, like gardening, you're creating at that point, which is a beautiful thing. Thanks for letting me share those, Mark. Thank you for sharing.

Thank you for doing this with me, Tony. We're going to actually cut it here and then we're going to have our second part of this, which is going to be, we're going to share some stories on the next Not Conscious. It'll be a week after we release this one.

Do you have any closing thoughts or anything, Tony, before we do the stories? Just for people to be kinder to each other, be kinder to yourself, be kinder to other people, look out for people. If you feel, if you get an impression that someone is struggling, just take time out to speak to them. Amen.

And if you feel the slightest bit of any of what we discussed, I'll put it this way. It's easier to fix a car problem when it first happens and when you let it create problems elsewhere. So if you feel the littlest touch of just even disappointment or sadness, feel free to express it with your closest friend right away.

(1:52:13 - 1:53:06)

You know, we should be able to discuss every state that we feel without it being judged. But it's a tough world sometimes, right? It is. Mark, do you have an email account for Not Conscious? I do.

Feel free. So I'll share it with everyone. It's info at notconscious.com. Or if you want Gmail, my Gmail, I don't check much, but it's notconsciouspodcast at gmail.com. Excellent.

So maybe if anyone wants to reach out for any further resources that we could. Yes. I was going to actually offer my Twitter because I am on there daily.

That's how you and I actually primarily communicate, which is great. I'm at notcon. K-N-O-C-K-E-D-C-O-N.

(1:53:06 - 1:53:20)

If you feel alone and you don't feel like you can talk to anyone, I can't promise I'll respond the second you send a message because I don't know. But if I see it, I will respond. That's fantastic.

(1:53:20 - 1:53:52)

I'm here. Look, I love the world. And I might be a curmudgeony grumpy dude, but the humanity is a really dichotomous thing.

But the beauty side of it is so beautiful. So and one more thing, like I watched in talking about this and researching this, I looked at a lot of philosophers viewpoints on suicide. And regardless of how they felt about why or why not, they all tend to lean towards choosing life.

(1:53:53 - 1:54:04)

And I mean, choosing life, not choosing death. I mean, choosing it, not having it happen to them. So it's interesting that I'll share that one article as well that that spoke about that.

(1:54:05 - 1:54:08)

Excellent. Tony, good chat, Mark. Thank you.

(1:54:08 - 1:54:27)

Thank you for bringing bringing this up. Once again, this has been another Knocked Conscious. We did talk about suicide next week.

It's going to be the second half of this. This podcast is going to be Tony and my personal stories with some some some just really touchy things. So we're going to be having some waterworks, I think.

(1:54:29 - 1:54:38)

Thank you, Tony. Again, thank you, Jess and Daniel, for sharing your emails. And any final words, Tony? Just take care of everyone.

(1:54:39 - 1:54:41)

Excellent. Thank you very much, guys.