Transcript of our conversation with Taj Jackson & Jess Garcia 8/16/2020

(0:13) Hey, everybody, and welcome to a special episode. It's our Square One episode of Knocked Conscious. (0:26) We have two very special guests with us.But before we introduce them, I'm very excited (0:31) because I want to hear the true stories of everything. But before we introduce them, (0:35) I wanted to share something I said a couple months ago. It was after watching Leaving (0:41) Neverland.And obviously, Square One's getting a lot of buzz on Twitter, debunking a lot of (0:47) what Leaving Neverland was. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to play that clip first. (0:52) And then I'm going to talk about how I got to watch Square One and then my change of (0:57) heart through a Facebook post.And then we'll introduce our special guests. So here's the (1:02) recording of the Facebook, not the Facebook, but the podcast that I did. It was in the (1:07) Catholic Church interview.But here is what I said. Late last year, I watched an HBO special (1:14) called Leaving Neverland. Yeah, I saw it too.Had similar content. It was two episodes, (1:24) like two episodes that were long, though. I think I watched them one per day.So I think (1:28) I watched one and watched the other. I was with my girlfriend. And I was impotent.Shut (1:36) up. I could not perform. No, I couldn't perform for a couple days.No joke. I looked at her (1:45) I'm like, I am so disgusted. It just all felt dirty.I know it sounds fucked up. But you (1:52) know, that's, that's, it all felt dirty. So let me just say since then.It's my choice. This is (2:01) why this is why I don't understand. You can get out.You have choice you the one you're in (2:09) fucking America. The one two things you have are speech and choice at least Anglin's. Look, (2:16) you have fucking choice.I have not listened to an adult Michael Jackson song. Since that since (2:27) that documentary. Alright, so that's what my feeling was about how I felt about things in (2:35) this topic after watching Leave a Neverland and it was pretty nasty.So I'd like to introduce (2:42) our first guest. Her name is Jess Garcia. Jess, are you there? I'm here.Hi. How are you? I'm (2:49) doing well. How are you? We're doing awesome.Thank you so much for coming on here. And it is (2:54) absolutely because of you that we're even sitting here because you and I connected somehow on (3:00) Twitter. Yes.How did this happen? You found me somehow and I had 30 followers at the time. So I (3:06) don't know how you even found me. I'm a podcast nerd.And so I was following podcasts. And you (3:12) guys, you DM to me and asked me to check out an episode. I was like, Okay, cool.We'll check out (3:18) this documentary called square one on Amazon Prime. We'll do a trade. He's clear about the (3:22) same length and time.And I guess that's how it happened. That's, that's exactly how I remember. (3:28) It's it's funny, you followed me and I wanted to thank you for following.And I we like I said, (3:33) we did one on, you know, this is a very personal topic for me as well. And this was just a really (3:38) close topic. And I had asked you to watch that on the Catholic Church.And you had asked me to watch (3:42) square one. And I thought square one without reading anything about it. I thought it was going (3:46) to be like leaving Neverland 2.0. I thought it was just going to be a pile on.So I'm really glad (3:51) that you had encouraged me to do it. So I read I watched the documentary. And I'm going to read my (3:57) Facebook posts.And then we're going to introduce our second special guest. And we'll, we'll talk (4:02) about the documentary and we'll have some questions. So on Facebook, right after watching (4:09) square one, it was really late at night, I wrote right or wrong.I'm a person who has an opinion (4:13) about almost every subject. Because I am so bold in my stances, it's vital that I continually (4:18) question my own thoughts, opinions and ideas. After watching leaving Neverland, which is an (4:23) emotionally driven story on HBO, I felt that there was little reasonable doubt about Michael Jackson's (4:30) guilt.My response that I stopped listening to any adult Michael Jackson songs. I listened to the (4:35) music he created when he was a child as I felt he was victimized in his youth. As an adult, he had (4:40) the ability to choose whether you'd hurt someone or not.So I decided that I would not support any (4:44) of his adult accomplishments. Last night, someone had asked me to watch square one on Amazon Video. (4:51) I saw it advertised but was not interested in hearing any more about MJ, mainly because I'm (4:56) physically disgusted by child abuse.After watching square one, it is my updated opinion (5:00) that if I were on the criminal jury regarding MJ, I would have absolute reasonable doubt of his guilt (5:06) and would therefore declare him not guilty of any alleged charges. That said, I have resumed my (5:12) appreciation for adult MJ songs. Admittedly, it was challenging to avoid any of his music in the (5:17) first place as I admired his music so much.I even bought the microphones that he used to record (5:22) Thriller to use on my podcast. Not his actual mic, but the ones based off of his. I do have, (5:30) I do leave myself open to changing my mind again if faced with compelling evidence to the contrary, (5:35) but in my mind, the defense team of MJ has provided reasonable doubt in my mind regarding (5:40) a criminal verdict.In addition, the criminal jury, there was only one criminal case found him (5:45) not guilty on all 14 counts. I write this as proof that we have the responsibility to question (5:50) ourselves as much as we question each other. Perhaps we can bridge more gaps with introspection (5:55) rather than attacks on others.I sure learned a lot this week. So there's my Facebook post. (6:00) I'm going to shut up now because I talked too much.But Jess, thank you so much for bringing (6:06) this to me. And now I'd like to introduce our other special guest, Taj. Tell us a little bit (6:12) about yourself.I'm Taj Jackson. I'm the son of Tito Jackson and the nephew of Michael Jackson. (6:20) And I'm honored to be on this podcast.Well, thank you so much for coming. Yeah. Thanks.(6:26) We're so great. We're so great to have you. And it was very interesting because our conversation (6:30) with Jess escalated when I was speaking with her and she was so passionate about this (6:36) that I wanted to just ask, Hey, do you want to come on the show? And I didn't even know (6:41) she was very excited to do it.And she reached out to you without us knowing. So we're excited (6:46) to have you. Yeah.I said like, I just want to maybe someone else who might know a little bit (6:49) more about it. And he goes, yeah, just get your associate or whatever. And then I was like, (6:53) it's Taj.Like, oh my God, it's Taj. It's Taj. Yeah.I'll be honest. I mean, the thing is, (6:59) you know, don't get me wrong. I'm a Michael Jackson fan, but what's more important here is justice.(7:05) Yes. So my focus on this part is about this particular instance and clearing, clearing, (7:13) you know, Michael's name as best as you can and everything. Yeah.So, so either of you would like (7:20) to start on how, how did you get involved with Danny Wu or how did the whole process (7:24) to the, to the, to the documentary start? Well, I can start with myself first since I kind of (7:32) became quote unquote, the spokesperson, which I of everything, which if anyone knew me beforehand, (7:40) if you would have picked, you know, probably that one of the shyest members of the family of the (7:44) Jackson family, I'd probably be on the top of the list. Me and Brandy Jackson, who also did her (7:49) rounds and, you know, talked and stuff like that. And it was just, as you said, I, I, I hate (7:56) injustice.And it was something that having spent thousands and thousands of hours with my uncle, (8:02) ever since I was from a baby, him holding me to probably the last, you know, three months before (8:09) he passed, I was always close to him. And as someone that had been sexually abused on my mom's (8:15) side of the family from an uncle, I see things differently. I see, I see things through the lens (8:20) of a sexual abuse victim.And I also see when, you know, things don't add up as well. So I felt (8:27) like, yes, I, you know, people can claim I'm biased because I'm a family member, but at the same time, (8:32) if I thought that my uncle was even a point, point, point zero percent chance of him being, (8:37) you know, guilty of it, I wouldn't be supporting him. I wouldn't waste my time.I would be quiet, (8:43) you know, and that was one of the things, but I ended up, you know, going into the lion's den (8:48) because I started in the U.S., you know, doing interviews, whoever would listen, basically, (8:53) because it was literally felt like an assassination attempt on his, I guess his (9:01) legacy, basically. And we never even knew that Leaving Neverland was coming out. They never even (9:07) approached us.They never gave us the chance to combat it in a way. It was like, okay, it got (9:13) rushed into Sundance. Here it is.And in the audience was all these journalists and sexual (9:19) abuse survivors. So it was, the deck was stacked against us from the beginning. And all that time, (9:26) I was like, can I at least, can the family see it so we know what we're dealing with? You know, (9:30) who are the, because at that time, we didn't know who the two quote unquote accusers were.And I, (9:37) in my gut, knew that one of them was Wade, but they weren't saying anything at that point. And (9:41) then once I heard that one of them was Wade, I knew, okay, I know what this is now. But (9:48) Leaving Neverland was designed pretty much to be, you know, just like horror movies, (9:54) you know, there's something called torture porn in horror movies, like those kind of movies like Saw (9:58) and the ones that Eli Roth does.And they're designed to really make you feel this nasty (10:04) emotion, this like gut-wrenching emotion. And that's what, to me, what Leaving Neverland was, (10:10) especially the wording that they used in terms of how they describe stuff. You know, (10:14) if you don't know Michael Jackson, or if you don't, you know, weren't associated with him, (10:18) that's the reaction you're supposed to have, because you're hearing these people (10:21) talk about the disgusting act.And you're, of course, you want to take a shower after and you're, (10:26) you know, you, you know, or you can't perform, you know, in that way, because it's like, (10:31) it really affects you mentally in that way. But that was what it was designed to do. And, (10:36) you know, it was very heavily organized that way, almost like an onslaught.But once you (10:43) actually take a step back and actually listen to what they're saying, you see that they (10:47) contradict themselves from their own depositions under court. And they also, their stories change (10:53) over time and not change in a way that, oh, memories, you know, naturally will evolve. No, (10:59) they change in terms of circumstance, and when it benefits them.And so we'll talk more about that (11:04) later. But I just became someone that was thrust into the spotlight, you know, having had a music (11:10) career with 3T. And, you know, in that I was always like the George Harrison of the group.I was (11:16) never the one that wanted to, never, I always said my brother, you know, that's one, I mean, (11:21) my name's Taj, but one of the places I've always wanted to go. But I always, I never liked the (11:28) spotlight completely on me. I was like, okay, that's for my brothers, you know, let them have (11:32) it.I'll just be in the background and that's fine. But with this, it just, it irritated me (11:38) so much, especially since I knew Wade. I was friends with Wade.I helped Wade get into the (11:42) memorial, my uncle's memorial. I helped, you know, Wade get to see the kids afterwards and all that (11:49) stuff. So I felt really not only betrayed, like kind of like an idiot in a way, and it like duped.(11:57) And then once I started finding out why he was doing that and the sequence of events, (12:03) which we'll go over to over as well, it's just like, it really became apparently clear that this (12:08) guy was just, he was like a disgruntled worker that wanted to just get revenge on, you know, (12:14) on, I don't want to say my uncle, because in his mind, he's probably thinking Michael's dead. So (12:19) it's not affecting him. You know, I'm just going after the money.But it was just, yeah. So that's (12:24) how I kind of, you know, I went to the UK kind of had to, and I don't like to use the word defend (12:30) my uncle. I stood up for my uncle because he's no longer here.He's not here to defend himself. (12:36) Right. Yeah.It's tough because I mean, the instantaneous defensiveness, (12:41) it's going to come through because being a family member makes it challenging. (12:44) It makes it challenging in that way. And people are like, you know, people always question, (12:48) oh, well that they're supposed to do that.They're family, you know, they have investment in it. And (12:52) it's like, no, I'm doing what is right. And what, you know, if you know someone, just like if it was (12:57) someone else's family member, if it was your family member, and you knew that they weren't, (13:01) they weren't capable of that, or they did not do that, and you have evidence of it, (13:04) and facts of it, you would support it too.You would be like, I'm going to scream as loud as I can, (13:10) you know, to write this wrong. But the media basically, which is why I'm so appreciative (13:16) when I go on any kind of podcast or any kind of YouTube kind of thing, or just a national network, (13:24) is just them hearing my story, hearing who my uncle truly was, or why leaving Neverland, (13:31) you know, is the lie that it is. And because we were shut out, we literally were shut out for (13:37) a good portion of it, of a lot of the mainstream media would not pick up the story or the falsehoods (13:43) of leaving Neverland because of the timing of the Me Too movement and the Time's Up movement.(13:48) It was, you can't question victims. Right. Well, that too, plus they double down, right? (13:54) You and I are a year apart.Chris is about two years older than I am. So we're within a three (14:00) year range of each other. And I was an adult 2021 when the trials were going on.So I'm very (14:07) familiar with how or the information that was fed us. Right. Oh, yeah.And the one thing about (14:14) this was really frustrating to me is, you know, you've got the NBC, ABC, CBS, all these big (14:19) affiliates, you know, just burying your uncle. Yes. And now Square One is getting such attention (14:28) outside of the mainstream media.They're going to come back to you and we need not to give them (14:32) that satisfaction of of cashing in on both ends of it. You know, they're they're going to they (14:38) vilify them. And now they're going to you know, there's going to be a point here because Square (14:41) One is taking off like crazy, which it should.Yeah, it should. And with Michael's birthday (14:46) upcoming, I mean, it's going to get this global attention again. Yes.And it's and it should (14:52) because it was done extremely well. And I always joke about it. It was not only fact checked by (14:58) people that were critical of it, but it was fact checked by the fans.Like the fans don't want (15:02) misinformation out there, you know, because it gives us a bad name at the same time. And so it (15:08) was, you know, it was double it was doubly critical. I don't want to say criticize.It was (15:13) doubly, you know, we were doubly critical about it. Absolutely. Yeah.And and and like you said, (15:18) I'm sorry for whatever you went through with your sexual abuse. But as from victim of sexual abuse, (15:25) sometimes we want to go on a witch hunt, right? Yeah. So so when you have a victim of sexual (15:30) abuse coming and saying, I don't see this as what I experienced that holds even more, you know, (15:38) it's got more teeth to it, it actually holds more water.And that's why I felt I had to be the one (15:43) out of everyone in the family because I have I was in a unique situation. And that way where they can (15:48) use the words, Oh, well, you don't know what it's like. No, I do know what it's like.And I (15:52) it was someone on on my mom's side of the family, who did this to me. And so I know what true (15:59) victims go through. And that's why I was sympathetic.That's why I, if you noticed, (16:04) and I mean, people can go back to my old tweets, I never attacked, you know, me too, or time's up, (16:10) I always just said, Hey, can we talk? Or can you listen to my side of the story? Because I didn't (16:15) want to sabotage true victims and what they're going through, because it does take courage (16:20) to come out and say something. But at the same time, I've lived this life, you know, for 40 (16:26) something years of my uncle being a target. And I'm not I'm just saying with, you know, (16:30) with fake allegations for child molestation, but, you know, we're talking paternity, (16:35) you know, fake paternity cases, you know, where people would say that they were married to him, (16:41) or people said, Oh, he stole my song.I mean, he was constantly getting, you know, in court (16:46) for things that I grew up watching and going, okay, you know, there's a lady named Billie (16:52) Jean who claims that she was married to him, or blah, blah, blah, or this person says they're (16:57) Michael Jackson's kid. So it's not in our world, it's not anything uncommon, you know, (17:03) but to other people, it's like, Oh, well, allegations don't, you know, fake allegations (17:06) don't really exist. Well, they exist in my world plenty.Yeah, I can only imagine when you're I (17:12) mean, your, your uncle was the king of pop, where else do you go from here? I mean, you're, (17:18) you're the top mountain, everybody's gonna try to take a piece, right? Well, you look at every (17:22) famous person in the world, and they have fake allegations, you know, in some way, and one side, (17:28) if it's political, you know, we'll lean towards that the other side will try and defend that. (17:33) And so it's just it's just how it is, because you're an easy target. (17:38) I agree 100%.So I definitely want to get into square one. Taj, are we okay? If we talk with (17:44) Jess about Oh, yes, you know, Jess, do me a favor, could you're in the credits of square one in (17:51) multiple places. Can you give us your credentials, your connection with Danny and how you like, (17:56) what's your backstory and how you got into this? Well, um, I am a true crime nerd, I kind of (18:02) mentioned podcasts earlier.And I just growing up, I had always assumed that Michael Jackson (18:09) had did something, but I never wanted to look into it. So I was really liked his artistry. (18:15) So at one point, I was like, I'm just gonna grow up, just face it and see what he did once and for (18:19) all.And like, that was pretty devastating experience, because I was like, there's no way (18:25) that he went through all this shit. And he didn't do anything. I felt horrible.I felt so bad, (18:30) because the more and more you look, the more innocent he becomes. So after leaving Neverland (18:36) came out at this point, I already knew he was totally innocent. And I had already known about (18:40) Wade and James because I've done this research.And so I had a meltdown. When that was airing, (18:46) I couldn't believe that they were taking away voices of actual victims, including myself. (18:53) And I just kind of went on the internet and try to find everything I could find.And then I found (18:58) Danny Wu's YouTube channel, and he had a few videos. They were awesome. And then I had seen (19:06) he was going to be interviewing someone that knew the first accuser.And so like I had made a (19:15) connection with someone else for him to potentially interview, but it didn't work out. (19:19) But we just stayed in touch. I sent him information here and there.And he and Shania, (19:27) I don't know if it's Shania or Shania Kumar, they're the two people that put it together. (19:33) They brought me on board and we just helped out more with the Amazon version. But (19:39) yeah, I mean, I'm so, so grateful to both of them to be involved with the project, but (19:46) yeah, I don't know.Sorry. No, that's perfect. (19:51) So are you familiar with, I mean, are you in the world of child sexual abuse or anything? (19:58) Is that something near and dear to your heart as well? (20:01) Yeah.I was four and I had, it was someone, he was married to my aunt. That's what I refer to (20:10) him as. And I was going to wait until he died to tell anyone because I didn't want to tear the (20:16) family apart.I knew if I had told anyone when I was four, like my dad would probably be behind (20:22) bars for murdering him. So when Leaving Neverland came out, I had a meltdown and I got drunk and I (20:28) went on Facebook Messenger and told all my aunts. What's the most surprising thing to me is that no (20:34) one was surprised.And it turns out that two other cousins of mine were also victims of his. So he's (20:40) no longer in our family, but. I'm really sorry to hear that.Just, yeah. I mean, and that's the (20:48) thing. Both of you come from this world and see the darkness and evil that it is, but you also (20:56) realize that going on a wild or on a witch hunt or after people who are falsely accused (21:02) is just as detrimental to the cause as it is finding the true justice, right? (21:08) A hundred percent.And we have a history of that in this country of, I guess, false accusations or (21:17) the wrong person behind bars in that way. Just because, I don't even want to say it's satisfying. (21:24) It's just, you know, sometimes you just want justice for something and in that way.And so (21:29) my whole thing with Leaving Neverland was like, you know, take a deep breath and let's, you know, (21:34) and because it was such a gut punch in a way that it was designed that way that you really, there (21:40) was no air for any other kind of like conversation. But once now with some distance, which I think was (21:46) perfect with Square One, there's now some distance and time in between that people can start, (21:51) you know, at least accepting, you know, another conversation, another side to something. (21:58) So it was perfect timing, but also, you know, it was led with facts, you know, and that always (22:05) helps too.And facts and knowledge, basically. And as opposed to, you know, and the thing was (22:13) Leaving Neverland, you know, the problem that I have with it mainly is they don't even care (22:20) if it was true or not. Like, you know, in terms of with the whole Brett Barnes situation where, (22:25) you know, he was trying to sue to get himself, his name taken out of the movie because he's like, (22:29) that never happened to me.And I strongly defend Michael. They gave him the, you know, the legal (22:35) middle finger and said, well, we don't care. You know, we're using it anyway.And so they took his (22:40) privacy. This is a person that's, you know, didn't even want to be named in anything. And now, and (22:46) just spread him all over the world in that way, implying that he had been sexually abused by (22:52) Michael Jackson, because it fit their narrative.And so that's the kind of stuff that frustrates (22:56) me is that they really don't care. It was all about money. And I said that in the beginning, (23:00) when people didn't believe that they were suing the estate before this came out.And, you know, (23:06) they made it this crusade, like, oh, no, we care about victims. And we're going to be, you know, (23:11) forefront people for the victims. Well, once their interview started contradicting, (23:18) and they realized that it could hurt their lawsuit, they were mighty quiet, they basically shut up.(23:22) And they haven't been, you know, been interviewed since because they know it's going to hurt their (23:27) legal chances of winning money. So their hearts not even in the right place in that. (23:33) Yeah.It's interesting. There's one thing that stuck out to me about leaving Neverland. (23:39) That, you know, like I said, it was so driven emotionally to make you kind of feel dirty about (23:45) Michael Jackson.That's just what it felt like. Oh, 100%. Well, I think it was Wade's Wade said (23:51) he just wanted it to be on the record.And I looked at my girlfriend who was watching with me, (23:55) I said, Why is he suing for $12 million? Why not sue for $1? Like, yeah, we like I said, Chris, (24:02) Chris had a best friend who was a victim of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. (24:08) And he just wanted it on the record. They kept throwing money and money after him.(24:13) And it got up to $2 million where the where the lawyer said, Okay, and he's like, I want it on (24:20) record, you know, sue for $1 if that's if you're you know, you have a career, sue for $1 and let (24:27) you know, you'll you'll write a book and you'll make so much money off the back end. But I didn't (24:31) understand why the monetary number was so high. If if all he wanted was justice.That's the one (24:37) thing that stuck out to me. Mark, you said 12 million. It's far more than that they're suing (24:43) for.Yeah, it's around 100 something. Oh, holy crap. Yeah.Okay. I thought I thought in the (24:49) Leaving Neverland, there was like a $12 million suit or something. I could be wrong.Not with (24:54) Okay, yeah. Please for I it's been I only watched that shit show once so (25:00) Yeah, you know, for me, it was really hard to like, I haven't watched it fully. I've watched (25:05) clips of it because I literally want to take my shoe off and throw it at the screen just because (25:10) you know, there's certain things I see that other people probably won't even see (25:14) just knowing Wade so well, but also just being a victim myself, like no parent in their right mind (25:21) when they're reminiscing about, you know, Michael Jackson, are they smiling or happy? You know, (25:26) this is someone that molested their kid.Why is you know, Stephanie, you know, (25:32) giggling and happy and smiling about, you know, Michael Jackson stuff like that's a monster to (25:38) her. At one point, she says that she's like, he doesn't know this, but I would like to listen in (25:43) and then sneak away. What mother would do that if she knew that her son was being sexually abused (25:48) behind that door? Why would she be laughing about that? That makes no sense.(25:52) Yeah. And that's the thing. And Wade's, you know, mom, same thing.It's like those kind of things, (25:58) you know, as a parent, you're, you're thinking of it and you look back and you're like, (26:01) he tricked us. He made us feel like a family. He made it, you know, you're, you should have (26:05) anger inside of you, not happiness, not joy.But what they did was very smart. Dan Reed, (26:11) he basically, he, he told some truth in the beginning, which is how they met, (26:16) you know, Michael Jackson. So you, you, as a viewer, you, you trust these people.You're like, (26:21) okay, there's genuine emotion here. They met Michael Jackson. Okay.I get it. I trust them (26:26) because their story checks out and I can see that they're happy. And then they switch it on you.And (26:31) you don't even know that they switched it on you. And that's the trick. That's a trickery that they (26:35) did, but it's like, so in a way it was ingenious, but I mean, I saw right through it because (26:41) I know them.I mean, I, I know Wade very well. And James, I never in interviews would talk about (26:48) because I don't know him. I never knew him.So I never felt comfortable talking about James, (26:54) but then when the train station lie hit, I felt very comfortable about talking about James in (27:00) that way because he, you know, there's a bunch of other lies that he had told. And so I was just (27:04) like, okay, now I know enough that I know he's lying as well. Mm-hmm.(27:08) Taj, this is Chris. I'm the quiet one. So my question for you at this point is, (27:14) would you agree that Leaving Neverland was basically all for ratings? (27:20) I think it was all for, I would hope it was all for ratings.You know, the thing is, is that it, (27:25) for me, it was a hit piece. It literally was, you know, it had big muscle behind it, (27:30) had HBO behind it in the States. HBO at the time, if you don't remember, (27:36) it was in its last season of Game of Thrones.And so no network, no trade, you know, whether it's (27:44) Hollywood Reporter or Daily Variety wanted to go against HBO because there goes their access to (27:49) Game of Thrones, you know? So everyone was on HBO's bidding. I mean, we know what that last (27:55) season ended up being, but at that point it hadn't come out yet. And so they really were scared to go (28:01) against the big HBO.So they, everyone was tweeting about HBO and it got all the support. (28:06) And then they got Oprah on board to sell it, you know, as well. And so it was really a hit piece (28:12) in a way designed to destroy a legacy.So yes, it was for ratings, but every time they use my (28:18) uncle's name, it's usually for ratings. It's like, they don't want anything positive. You know, (28:23) they won't talk about anything positive.They'll always talk about, you know, the scandals or stuff (28:29) like that, that, you know, once you look beyond, you'll see that they have no weight to them. (28:35) Okay. Gotcha.As, as I suspected. (28:39) Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean this whole, I think that what's more disheartening.I can't (28:45) even say the word correctly. It's heartening. Yeah.It was a lot longer than I thought it was, (28:51) was that, you know, when you have reputable networks that now, because of the whole (29:00) TMZ blog kind of atmosphere, they have to keep up. They have to get the clicks as well. So (29:05) now they're starting to do things that, you know, we used to think, oh, they were straight and arrow.(29:10) And now, no, now they will, you know, they will imply stuff or they'll get, they'll put a heading (29:15) headline in there to grab attention. That's not true. And so it really, I always knew the media (29:21) was like that, you know, because I saw that in 2005 with my uncle, you know, I lived at Neverland (29:26) when the trial happened and I would literally have the TV on flipping through channels and (29:33) see all this stuff about the testimony.And then Tom Mesereau, which, who was my uncle's (29:39) lawyer would come back to, to Neverland with my uncle. And I would ask Tom privately, (29:44) like, how did it go today? And he'd be like, oh my gosh, it went so well. This person got (29:48) caught in the lie.And this person got caught in a lie. This person, you know, admitted that. (29:53) And then I would be like, I don't see any of that on TV.So either it was not on television. (29:58) Oh, it wasn't at all. And I was like, so either he's overly confident and just trying to tell (30:03) me something that I want to hear, or they're just lying out of their teeth.And I switched (30:06) through every channel trying to get a fair assessment and there just wasn't any. And so (30:12) I don't blame the public. I really don't, because at the end of the day, they only saw one side to (30:18) the point where they're like, yeah, he did it because we got told that he did it.We got told (30:23) about this story about, you know, this maid saw him in the shower, you know, with a boy, but then (30:29) that maid gets on the stand and Tom cross-examines her and she's like, oh, maybe it wasn't, you know, (30:35) maybe it was just Michael. Maybe it wasn't the boy, you know? And it's like, it's like, but (30:39) they don't report that. They just told, oh, Michael found in the shower with a boy, you know? So (30:43) those kinds of things, you know, really irritate me because it's like, you know, they don't, (30:49) they stuck around for all the gossip, but not for the truth.And that's what we're seeing with, (30:53) you know, this whole Leaving Neverland. It's like the story's been told. I've been told that (30:57) by media, oh, we already talked about Leaving Neverland.We don't need your side of the story (31:03) anymore. We got all we can out of it. And I'm like, that's not how it should work.You know, (31:08) if there's some, if you, you should revise it. If you found out there's lies in there, (31:12) like the train station and the Grand Canyon and a particular dinner that I was physically at that (31:20) they claimed, Wade claims that he went to a dinner before his testimony, the day before his testimony (31:29) and saw my uncle and how he interacted with his daughter Paris. And he was like, really like out (31:35) of it and whatever.And that's when Wade decided he had to lie and protect his friend. And I'm like, (31:42) that dinner happened after his testimony. And I said that on Twitter, and sure enough, (31:49) it got cut out of the UK version.So it's like, they're not even, they're lying. And then when (31:55) they get caught, they make edits. And this, the original HBO thing, it's a lot shorter now than (32:02) it was when it first got aired, because there's all these lies that have been cut out of it.And (32:07) so I think that's very dishonest. And it's in, I'm very upset at the media for not highlighting that. (32:17) So the media is basically catering to the masses for ratings.(32:23) Yes. (32:24) Like they, and which they're still doing today. Which, which just with different subjects, (32:29) which they, which they've always done.(32:31) They've always done horrible. (32:32) And, and your point about TMZ and how they've changed the world. And now HBO is the new TMZ.(32:39) That's a, that's a, what a great point. I mean, that's, it's really, it's sad, but so, so accurate. (32:47) And it's, you know, someone that is all about justice.It bothers me because there's nowhere (32:53) that you, I mean, you're, you're starting to have to go to like places like YouTube and podcasts, (32:59) you know, to get the truth. And that's, you know, I'm happy that they exist. And that's (33:04) exactly what we did.You know, when Leaving Neverland came out, it was like, Oh, (33:09) a lot of the YouTube and podcast people, you know, would hear our side of the story. (33:14) And that's kind of how I met Danny was Danny. Basically he's like, would you and Brandy (33:20) be willing to be interviewed by me? And I didn't know this guy at all, you know, (33:24) and I didn't even really care what his numbers were anything.I was just like, (33:29) if he's willing to hear my side of the story, then I'm willing to, you know, be there for it. (33:34) And so, and that's how I met Danny. And yeah.And that's kind of our philosophy on it as well is (33:40) we've had some guests on that speak some pretty radical things, but that's not, (33:45) that's not our job to keep someone from expressing their beliefs or their thoughts. (33:51) Exactly. You know, so we're, we're always open to having people over.And what we're finding is (33:55) back in the day, there was no internet. There was no decentralized point of information like there (34:00) is now you had two or three news organizations all getting their source from the same place and (34:06) feeding it to us like just sheep, right? They're just spoon feeding us all day. Now we're finding (34:11) that we're information can be decentralized.So it's not always CNN and NBC and Fox or whoever (34:17) that have this information. The challenge with that though, like to your point is with me too. (34:23) And with these types of cases, you get some people who cling on to that, right? Cause they (34:27) want attention or something.So you just have to be more vigilant about the data that you get, (34:32) but we're so blessed now to have these different modes of information. (34:37) And, and, and, and that's why I hope the ample pot amplify those, you know, (34:41) because it really had been it was really frustrating when, you know, places that I knew (34:48) had millions and millions of viewers, they were, would not allow me or Brandy to be on their (34:53) channel, you know, telling another side of the story. It was almost like, you can't question (34:59) these guys, you know, you can't, this is the narrative and we're going with it.So, (35:03) you know, just shut up. And, and so it kind of forced us in a good way too, because it came, (35:08) it became at the same time, more organic and homegrown in that way, in terms of who we got to (35:14) talk to and everything like that. And it was a, you know, almost like a grassroots kind of thing (35:20) in terms of this change that happened from the combativeness of, of leaving Neverland.(35:26) Yeah. (35:26) Wasn't there an interview, Taj, that you were supposed to do, but (35:29) did it work out or something like that? (35:31) Yes. Good morning, America.Basically in the afternoon, I was just driving around killing (35:37) time. And, once it was supposed to be me and Brandy and they received a call from, (35:44) and I'm not going to name names because, but you can probably assume from someone very high up, (35:50) you know, a talk show host, very high up that basically from their office that said (35:55) that killed our interview. And I just- (35:59) That is unbelievable.(36:00) Well, it, you know, it just showed me that they weren't interested in the truth. They're just, (36:05) you know, it was about selling a story in that way. And that frustrated me more than anything, (36:12) because it was like, I was looking forward to it.I had been on Good Morning America back in the day (36:17) with 3T and it was a huge opportunity and stuff like that. And Brandy, who has been hidden from (36:23) the media in that way, because she kills Wade's narrative about, you know, Wade dating my uncle, (36:30) which is ridiculous because Brandy dated Wade for over seven years during the teenage years, (36:37) from puppy love all the way up. (36:39) Wow.I didn't even know that. So thank you for sharing. I'll be honest.I'm really, (36:45) my concern is justice and truth. And trust me, as big a fan as I am, I'm not, you know, in the world (36:53) like some fans are. So that's amazing to me.So Wade and Brandy dated for seven years? (37:00) Over seven years. I told her to say seven years because I didn't want it to be like, if it was (37:06) seven and a half years or eight years, I didn't want to be accused of over-exaggerating. (37:10) Right.And you don't want to be caught like, oh, it's seven and a half. It's like, (37:14) oh, it's only seven. So they're going to get you on semantics, right? (37:16) Exactly.But yeah. (37:19) Tosh, how did they meet? How did they find out? (37:22) Yeah, I was just about to get to that. So Wade, you know, Wade did a lot of stuff with like LA (37:26) Gear, the promotion with my uncle and so did Brandy.And so Wade developed a crush on Brandy (37:32) and asked my uncle if he could invite Brandy to Neverland so that they could get to know each (37:37) other. So Brandy and Wade met through my uncle, basically. My uncle set them up, (37:43) which is completely the different narrative of how Michael was jealous of girls, you know, (37:48) talking to his quote unquote, you know, victims and all that stuff.It's baloney. And (37:53) Wade and Brandy dated all the way up to, I call it the, well, I don't even know, (37:59) you probably don't even know the story. (38:01) I don't.Look, this is your time. I love story time. We actually have like a special (38:06) thing for story time.Can we play it? Hold on. We've got it for you. (38:10) Sure.(38:11) Okay. We're going to play it now. It's time for story time, ladies and gentlemen.(38:19) All right. Go for it. Go for it, Tosh.(38:22) Well, I was just saying that, you know, Wade dated Brandy all throughout his teenage years (38:27) and all that stuff. And it's known. That's why he's never, he can't question Brandy and (38:32) neither can his friends, you know, because they know it's the truth that Brandy and him (38:35) dated for all that time.But not only that, Wade, the reason Brandy and Wade broke up is (38:41) because Brandy, Wade cheated on Brandy with a famous singer. And this famous singer, I mean, (38:48) you can say Jess, I won't say it, but this famous singer. (38:51) We don't want to name drop.I mean, we're here. We're all in good faith here, right? (38:55) Oh, no, it's already known. (38:57) Oh, okay.(38:58) I guess. (38:59) So share it because now I want to know. (39:02) Well, Britney and Justin Timberlake were like the two biggest items at that time.(39:06) And it's known that someone came in and basically, you know, Britney cheated on someone (39:14) and broke up Justin and hers relationship. That's where the cry me a river comes from, (39:18) that video and whatever. (39:20) No way.I love the inside stuff. This is good. (39:24) And that person was Wade Robson, who was choreographing for NSYNC at the time.(39:29) And so that was the thing. That's the reason why Brandy broke up with Wade. And that's the (39:34) reason why Justin broke up with Britney was because of Wade Robson.And Wade went off to (39:40) choreograph with Britney for a time. And then she dumped him. I don't know what happened there.(39:45) But he burned his bridges in the choreographing world. And that's why he has no footing anymore. (39:54) That's why, because no one wants to work with him anymore.(39:57) Tonight on TMZ. (39:59) No, I mean, you can look it up. It's right there.So it's not something... (40:03) And there's actually a Lifetime movie. I just saw this one clip, but apparently it came to light (40:08) when Justin and Britney were both doing Saturday Night Live. And there's this clip with these (40:12) actors playing Justin and Britney.And Justin's reading this note. And he looks at it and goes, (40:17) Wade? So this is documented in Lifetime movies and stuff. It's not a secret.(40:22) Yeah. And that's the thing. I don't want to rumor anything.Whatever I tell you, (40:27) you can look it up. And that's always how you should approach anything. It's like, (40:31) don't just listen to my words.Look it up. It's there. And I think that's what the brilliance of (40:36) if you want to look up anything, here it is in that way.As opposed to them, which is like, (40:42) oh no, trust us with blind faith. Don't look up anything. Just trust us.And that's the difference. (40:49) One side is saying, no, do your homework. We don't care.Do your homework. The more you look (40:53) up Michael Jackson, the more you study him, you'll realize he was innocent. While the other (40:58) side's like, no, no, no, no, no.Just watch Leaving Neverland and case is closed. (41:02) Right. Just the prosecution, no defense.Just shut up. (41:05) Yeah. And I'll be honest that that's kind of, like I said, as the lay person who was alive (41:12) and watching the trials initially and just being fed this information, whatever they wanted us to (41:17) have.Yeah. And then seeing square one that raised enough reasonable doubt I've gone down the rabbit (41:23) hole since and all I see are just picks at everything. And we definitely can go through.(41:28) We definitely have a couple of questions from that, but I'm, I'm really enjoying how you're (41:32) sharing everything. So please continue your thought path on where you're at and what we (41:37) want to talk about. No, I was just saying, so that was just one of the things.So that's why (41:41) Wade had lost communication with our family because he had cheated on Brandy. And that's (41:45) why he was so excited when I reached out to him about the memorial, because our family wasn't (41:50) talking to him anymore. I didn't realize that at the time, he had been ostracized from the family.(41:56) Um, so, you know, I still regret inviting him to the memorial, but I felt like, you know, (42:03) I wanted to invite whoever was close to my uncle or that I felt was close to my uncle at the time. (42:07) And I was, he was one of those names that could slip through that no one would remember. (42:12) And so that was the, that was the problem that I had with it, but it's just like, you know, (42:16) so he, he plays this innocent victim, you know, in this way, but Wade was anything but innocent (42:22) and the dancing community, which has gone, a lot of them have gone on record who have known (42:27) both Michael and Wade, they believe Michael, you know? And so it's like, there's a problem when (42:32) your own, you know, peers don't believe you in that way.And it's like, and it's not a lack of, (42:38) you know, um, them just saying, oh, we want, we want to believe Michael. It's just that they know (42:43) Wade's character. So he's been shunned in the choreography industry then? Yeah.He's, I mean, (42:49) that's why he's not in it anymore. I mean, and I'll be honest, I didn't know that he was kind (42:55) of booted. I'm not that familiar with the ins and outs of that.I just knew that he was a (42:58) choreographer. I just, he was one of the biggest choreographers. He was doing NSYNC and Britney (43:02) Spears at the time of, you know, the boy band craze.He was the hottest choreographer at that (43:09) point. And so it just, it goes to show you that, you know, you burn enough bridges and then all (43:15) of a sudden you have nowhere else to go in that way. And he always built his career on being the (43:21) hottest choreographer at the time.So I can imagine. Yeah. I mean, look, you make personal (43:25) decisions.You, you suffer consequences, unfortunately, you know, if you're the, (43:29) if you're a good person, I think the thing, or you blame others, which is what he did, (43:33) you know, it sounds like it, you know? So that's, that's, that's why I have really no respect for (43:38) him is because, you know, we all face hardships. We all face setbacks, but Wade's been known, (43:44) you know, Wade blamed Michael for his dad's suicide, which had nothing to do with Michael (43:51) Jackson at all, but somehow they twisted it to make it seem like, you know, his dad was jealous (43:57) of Michael, which is not true at all, you know? Wait, so hold on a second. I just got a weird (44:03) blow up in my face thing.So Wade's dad committed suicide and Chandler Jones and (44:08) Evan Chandler's dad or Evan Chandler committed suicide? Yes. Yeah. Both fathers of accused (44:14) abusers of alleged victims committed suicide.Yes. You know, that seems odd. Yeah.Well, (44:21) why wouldn't you bring that up in Leaving Neverland, you know, seems relevant, but why (44:25) wouldn't you? Yeah, that was not brought up. That is a bombshell for me. I did not know that Wade's (44:29) father committed suicide also.I just knew of Evan after Square One. Well, Wade, you know, Wade's (44:35) family, you know, they, they left Australia. The father stayed in, and so they left to pursue (44:42) America and the American dream.And so, you know, Wade stopped having a lot of contact with his (44:48) father and stuff like that. And I think there's a, I don't want to say a hurt, but there's something (44:55) like, you know, there's probably some guilt in there. And it's easy to blame Michael for that, (45:00) you know, in a way, but Michael had nothing to do with that.Oh, go ahead, Jess. I was in (45:08) Leaving Neverland, Wade had said something that he had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. (45:13) And that when this happened, like, Wade just wanted him to go away, which he's a kid, I don't (45:20) blame, you know, kids for having these feelings.But exactly. Yeah, it's none of that involves (45:24) Michael Jackson. That's a family issue.You know? Yeah, yeah. Well, I had no idea that that is a (45:30) bombshell for me. I've seen it in some newspapers about Wade blaming Michael Jackson for, you know, (45:37) his dad's death, and them running stories about it.So that's why I brought it up. Because it's (45:43) that's very frustrating to me. It's almost like, you know, you can blame Michael Jackson for (45:47) anything in that way.And so that was when I blame him for good music. Which you should, (45:54) which you should. I mean, and arguably still the best music video of all time.Come on, (45:59) which is for you, which is thriller, of course. Okay. I don't know.I mean, don't get me wrong. (46:03) Billie Jean's phenomenal. I mean, they're all great in their own.My favorite is criminal. (46:07) Oh, Smooth Criminal is great, too. Good song.Anyway. (46:11) Yeah. But so I think the thing that, you know, one of the things that's just so frustrating about (46:16) this whole thing is just, you know, before square one, it was like, it was very hard to tell the (46:22) story and, and to just have people listen.I think square one put it in such a great bite, (46:30) not even bite size, but just a tangible way for people to see it visually, you know, and go, (46:35) wait a minute. Yeah. That doesn't make sense.Or, okay. I understand that. See, (46:39) I was around for, you know, the, the first allegation, you know, and I say, I, (46:45) me and my brothers were around.We actually, when the first allegations hit, we flew. (46:50) What year was that? Was that 93 then? (46:52) That was 93. That was 93.(46:53) So you would have been 22 ish or 21, 22, right? (46:57) 21. I'm 1973. So.(47:00) Oh, 73. Okay. So you'd have been 20, 1920.(47:03) Yeah. Okay. And my mom was still alive at that point.And, and I, I I'll never forget. She's (47:11) like, you, you gotta leave school. You know, your uncle needs you.And we were on a plane, (47:17) like within hours to fly up to Asia to be with him because we've always been that close to him, (47:23) me and my brothers. And they, he explained to us that there's, you know, these people lying about (47:29) him and he's going to fight it. He's, he's upset about it, you know, and he was, he was angry, (47:36) which is the emotion that you would expect.He was, he's like, I'm not going to let them (47:39) get away with this. I know who's behind this, blah, blah, blah. (47:42) And if I may interestingly enough, when I remember him doing those video recordings (47:49) and then putting them on television, you can tell he's angry.(47:52) Yes. You can tell. (47:54) You can tell a serious, there's an underlying anger out now seeing it through a different lens, (47:59) you know, the innocent and the guilty would probably deny it, but he had such underlying (48:03) anger underneath that, that he was trying to choke down.(48:07) You know, it was a mixture of anger and hurt. And I think that was the thing, because (48:11) one of the things that he never expected, he never expected, I mean, there's always been (48:16) tabloids and, you know, this was the time of, you know, court of hard copy and current affair, (48:21) you know, that's when they were taking off and they just, they had a field day with it. (48:26) And yeah, they really did.I remember those tabloid type television shows. (48:29) Yes. And one of the people, AJ Bensa, he actually, was it New York Times or New York Post that (48:37) unveiled that he was hired, his firm was hired by Harvey Weinstein to make up stories, (48:45) to kind of spin stories to keep Harvey off the headlines.And one of the people that they found (48:50) out they did that to was Michael Jackson. So. So they use, they use Michael's allegations to (48:57) bury what Weinstein was doing in the entire time in his.Exactly. And, and Hollywood knew it, (49:04) which is one of the things why I'm not, you know, and this is a, this is an industry that (49:08) I want to be part of in terms of like, I've always wanted to be a director. (49:12) And I'm just like, this was this whole leaving Neverland.I'm literally burning bridges, (49:16) with a match every place I go like, well, there goes Daily Variety because I just yelled at them. (49:21) There goes Hollywood Reporter because I just yelled at them. There goes HBO because I just (49:24) yelled at them.There goes Sundance, which is, you know, a place that I thought I could debut (49:30) something at. And so, but at the same time, it's all about justice and I could care less (49:34) if they're lying about my uncle or if they're lying about a scenario or my family. So (49:38) for me, yes, that's, that's the thing.Like it's all about justice and it's all about truth. (49:44) And so I'll stand by that. And, and, you know, it's really hard when people go, (49:49) oh, well, you weren't there.It's like, you know, but neither were you. And so (49:54) people's words matter even more, you know, in that, right. If you weren't, if both people (49:58) weren't, if you're not there and, and the guy is no longer there to defend himself and (50:02) the words of the accuser matters and their, and their track record matters.(50:08) Well, what was so interesting is how all of the cases built on the Sandy foundation, (50:14) that was the original case. So the truth is it is the house of cards. If you can, (50:19) if you can really disprove one of those foundation pieces, the whole thing really (50:23) doesn't stand on its own.It doesn't stand on its own. And it's all been, and it's all (50:28) been built very flimsily in terms of with the, you know, with the 2005 case. I mean, (50:33) they've changed the date of the allegations because they realized that, you know, Michael (50:38) wasn't, I think either Michael wasn't there at Neverland or they had done a rebuttal video.(50:43) And so they pushed back the date of the allegation, the prosecution did and said it was another date. (50:49) And the date that, that they pushed it back was after the Martin Brashear documentary where (50:53) everyone was upset and up in arms. So they want, they want the public, see the public doesn't even (50:59) know this, but they want the public to, to, to believe that, you know, right when Michael (51:04) Jackson was at the most scrutiny that he could be because of Martin Brashear documentary, (51:08) he decides that's what I'm going to molest this kid.Right. (51:11) But that was after he had already kidnapped them from a station that didn't even happen yet (51:16) because he held them hostage somehow. I don't know.(51:18) Yeah. Like if you, if you do the, if you look through the court documents and you actually (51:22) look through the, the top, the time signatures and linear everything, you'll realize that (51:29) it never made sense. It was just sound bites that the media fed to the people (51:33) and the media has gone on record.I've I think it was the head of CNN or the owner of CNN. (51:39) That's basically said that, you know, they would have made way more money if Michael was guilty. (51:44) And that's, you know, and so you should, as a news organization, you should be impartial, (51:49) you know, and, and be for the truth, not about how much money you were going to make, (51:54) you know? So that's why I feel like all those media lean towards one way, (51:59) because they wanted him to be guilty.I mean, Oprah did, Oprah did (52:04) a episode on child molestation during the jury selection of Michael's case. (52:10) During the deliberations, before the verdict, but after the trial. (52:13) Yeah.So it was like, so it's like, that's the thing like that bothers me is like, (52:18) there's so much manipulation going on. And that normal, when I say normal people, (52:23) I just meant the average public doesn't even understand. But once you go down that rabbit (52:28) hole, as you said, say, you know, it's like, this all becomes clear that this guy was just, (52:33) he was someone that was misunderstood.But, you know, that's enough for them. It's almost like (52:38) that movie where it's like the neighbor that's just misunderstood or this, you know, I don't (52:42) like to use the word where this different neighbor, you know, and so they, you know, (52:46) there's a crime that happens and they all point to the neighbor that no one understands like, (52:51) oh, he did it because he's different or, you know, unique. Well, I've always used the word unique, (52:58) you know, but I've always used it because he was, he was, he was one of a kind, he was unique.(53:03) And it's his life growing up was unique. I mean, this is a, this is a guy that was singing (53:09) professionally at the age of like six, you know, years old and was traveling on tour buses and this (53:16) and that. And, you know, people always go, well, it was, it's weird for an adult to be friends with (53:22) a kid.And I'm like, but Michael was friends with Diana Ross and Stevie Wonder and, and Marvin Gaye. (53:30) And he was a kid friends with an adult. And that wasn't weird at all.And so that's a thing. He (53:35) grew up in that world of like Motown where it's like, they were just his peers. So he never looked (53:40) at it as like, I'm not supposed to be friends with kids because I'm an adult now.And I always make (53:46) a joke about back to the future. No one ever questions Marty and Doc's relationship, you know, (53:51) I mean, you know, probably wouldn't fly in today's world. It's one of my favorite movies of (53:56) all time.I never, because you don't, you don't think like that. You don't think, well, you know, (54:00) why is Marty over Doc's house and, you know, watching Doc's stuff, what's going on there, (54:04) you know, but maybe now in today's more cynical world, you know, five, 10 years from now, (54:09) it won't hold up because people will be looking at it differently in, in, in a darker way, (54:14) I should say. That's a really good point.I mean, it's kind of funny because akin to how I think (54:20) Michael saw the world, like through those childlike eyes is like, I've, I've, I've walked (54:26) by a sandbox and just plopped down next to a kid and started playing in the sand. Cause I like (54:31) sandcastles. I mean, what's wrong with that? You know, it's just unfortunate how it can get (54:35) viewed and skewed and all the evilness we see, you know? And that's a great point.You're not (54:40) allowed to do that anymore. Like that's, that's just like, it's, it's almost like robbing humanity (54:46) in a way, you know, you can't even, you have to be careful just saying hi to a kid today, you know, (54:52) or just waving at them just cause they, they make a face at you and you think it's funny, (54:56) you know, it's like, you know, then you get the parent that looks at you like, you know, (55:01) stay away from my kid. Yeah.I get that. It's like, I've got that thing with the crying babies (55:06) where I can look at a crying baby and then they'll stop. And the parent looks at me like, (55:10) there's an arm growing out of my head.I look at him, I just shrug and go, I don't know what it is. (55:14) I'll walk away and I'll like back away. Cause it, it can be seen as this weird thing, right? It's (55:19) like creeping now it's, it's got painted such a dark light now because of the allegations.(55:24) And, and, and it's, you know, I mean, as a parent should always be cautious, but it's just sad (55:28) because there's a loss of innocence now in that way. And I grew up, you know, wanting to always (55:34) be a child. I grew up in Michael's world or my uncle's world.And I saw the benefits of that. (55:39) Like I never wanted to grow up and I still don't want to grow up. I still refuse to know my age.(55:44) I still, you know, play hide and go seek with my cousins, you know, all the time. And, you know, (55:50) just grown guy playing, but it's so much fun. And it's like, the thing is, is that I just, I've, (55:56) I've seen the other side and it's just bills and payments and credit and debt.And it's like, (56:02) it's not fun, you know? And that's the thing. Like, so it's like being a child, sometimes (56:07) you can escape that world, you know? I mean, you know, trust me, we all have that, but I'm (56:11) just saying that in that way, it's like, you know, I hated the words grow up, you know, (56:16) you should grow up. You know, I just didn't like those words at all.I think, you know, (56:20) I totally get it. I mean, it, it's interesting. We do have to recapture that in, in ourselves (56:25) at times, right? Spielberg has that magic, like Spielberg would always talk about that was the (56:29) secret of his, his directing was he, he was a big kid, you know, you never, you know, I don't know, (56:34) you know, as a family man, he might've lost some of that, you know, because he's not been the same.(56:39) But when he was doing those movies, like E.T. and Jurassic Park, he was just that big kid (56:44) playing in that sandcastle or the sandbox. I should say. (56:47) Exactly.Totally makes sense. So, so to go back just a little bit. (56:51) Yeah.(56:52) I remember Oprah being very pro Michael. (56:55) What? (56:55) For all in the beginning. No, we're talking like eight mid eighties when he was hot, (57:00) right.When she was growing her audience. (57:03) Oprah goes with what the audience, like, (57:06) That's my point, right? That's what I'm trying to point at is like, (57:08) I remember in the mid eighties, I thought she was on, he was on her show and she was gushing. (57:14) Oprah, (57:15) That's actually the most famous interview of all time.The one that they did together (57:19) in February, 1993 is that interview is viewed by the most people of all time. (57:24) Yeah. It's so my uncle, basically the Oprah interview that happened, I think it's like (57:30) 93 million people saw it.It's the most viewed interview of all times over president over (57:35) anything. So, you know, he basically put her on the international map because a lot of people (57:42) had no clue internationally who Oprah was. So he made Oprah an international star because (57:48) people tuned in from all over the world to see it.And he chose Oprah to do it. And so (57:53) that is another reason why it feels such a, like a backstab because, you know, Oprah has (57:59) had these opportunities that our family has given her. Same thing with my grandma who gave her (58:06) the first interview with the kids and her, you know, once Michael passed and it was in such high (58:12) demand and Oprah comes, you know, slithering back, basically saying, you know, Michael was (58:18) misunderstood and I want the world to see who Michael truly was.Let me do this interview. (58:23) And I was there for that. I actually heard that with my own ears.And then, you know, (58:29) here we are, you know, later on, and she's over here doing a special about child molestation (58:37) saying, oh, it's bigger than Michael Jackson, but has every person in the audience is a child (58:42) abuse victim. It was like, it's almost like a court case where the jury is actually rigged (58:47) in that way, where everyone is designed to be a support system for Wade and James, (58:53) even though they're telling lies and she covered for them at times. She helped them at times in (58:59) that way.And it just, it really bothers me. And I think the other thing that people don't (59:04) understand, I know I'm talking a lot and I'll be quiet. No, please.No, please share, share. (59:09) This is, this is the truth though. We want the truth to be exposed.Well, from what I heard and (59:14) a magazine or a newspaper printed that Wade had accused the family and Michael Jackson's (59:25) production companies of kind of aiding and abetting, you know, this molestation. And that (59:34) was supposedly in the special that Oprah did. Well, they cut that out because we could sue if that (59:40) was the case, you know, because Michael's no longer liable, right? Yep.You know, we, the dead (59:46) can't sue, which is one of the reasons why it's so frustrating. We have no leg to stand in as a (59:50) family of suing these guys for lying. Do you have a trust of some sort that that can sue or no, (59:56) no, you can't, you can't sue for libel or defamation or slander for if if the person (1:00:04) is dead or deceased.Okay. So I can make up any story I want about Elvis and not get sued. (1:00:10) You know, and it's the saddest thing that that's, you know, there's no protection there, (1:00:15) but that's what they had going for them as well.Cause most people go, well, why isn't the family (1:00:19) suing then if it's, you know, if that's the case and so, but yeah, so what, what Wade had to do to (1:00:26) get money, you know, was sue the estate. He had to sue the estate and basically pretend that, (1:00:33) you know, the production companies were involved in all this as a, as a hush hush, (1:00:38) you know, and help enable it in that way. And that's what they're doing now.They're (1:00:42) suing the estate, you know, for that, for that reason, because Michael Jackson is no longer (1:00:46) like to sue. I'm actually going to jump back a little bit there Taj, because we were talking (1:00:51) about his choreography career and the lawsuit, but the last thing he tried to pursue choreography (1:00:57) wise was the NJ one production in Las Vegas. And when he didn't get that lawsuit.Yes. And (1:01:04) I don't think they know that. So basically what happened was Wade, you know, from the Memorial, (1:01:10) you know, actually 24 hours after, within 24 hours of Michael passing, he sent, so you think, (1:01:19) so you think you can dance.Yeah. He sent them basically an email saying, you know, Hey, (1:01:26) if you ever do a tribute of Michael Jackson, I want to be involved, you know? So, and then he (1:01:32) also on the MTV awards where Janet did a tribute to Michael, he's in, he's one of the dancers (1:01:38) of that. So he was doing tributes to Michael all the way up until, as Jess said, basically (1:01:45) he got denied the Cirque de Soleil job.And that's when all of a sudden he decides to write this book. (1:01:54) So it's very convenient, right? Yeah. Basically.So I, it's like, I honestly feel if he would have (1:01:59) gotten that Cirque job, none of this would have happened. Yeah. And it wouldn't be as good of a (1:02:04) show though.But that's, that's, I mean, that tells you something that his moral, his morals are based (1:02:12) on, you know, can he make money or not? It seems obvious that he's grasping at straws (1:02:18) because he doesn't, he doesn't have anything. He doesn't have anything. And, and, and he even got (1:02:23) caught lying by cause of the statute of limitations.Basically he had to say that he didn't (1:02:28) know the estate existed because it was a certain amount of years that he had to file this claim. (1:02:35) So he lies and says, oh, I didn't know this, the Michael Jackson estate existed. Well, they went (1:02:41) back to him and said, well, then how did you meet with the Michael Jackson estate when it came to (1:02:45) Cirque de Soleil? Yeah.Cause you met with John Branca, who's Michael Jackson, you know, head of (1:02:50) Michael Jackson's estate. And so that's one of the reasons that judge basically throughout the case, (1:02:54) no, no person in their right mind would believe these guys. And that's literally what the judge (1:03:00) said, you know, because Wade just kept lying.And so the dates are convenient to whatever (1:03:06) the lawsuit will allow. Right. So, I mean, it's, it's, and it's so different in a civil case, (1:03:12) unlike a criminal case where criminal case must be unanimous and a civil case, I believe it's (1:03:17) just a majority.Isn't it like a simple majority, which is what they were probably hoping with (1:03:21) Neverland to sway kind of quote unquote, the jury pool to think he's, he's a monster or (1:03:27) scaring the estate to like, let's just settle because we don't want the heat anymore. Let's just (1:03:32) give in. Right.So that's where we're at right now. I, I watched square one about four or five (1:03:42) times, four and a half times. Sorry.I didn't watch it. I didn't watch double digits guys. (1:03:47) I'm very sorry, but we took a couple notes.And I, I hope I'm going to ask these questions (1:03:53) correctly. A lot of these are clarification. Please understand if there's something that (1:03:57) I'm not asking correctly, please feel free to correct us.I definitely want to get back to some (1:04:03) of this other stuff, but like, I, I know that a lot of listeners are really interested in, (1:04:07) you know, the square one stuff and let's do it, you know, making sure that we can do it. (1:04:12) So, so Taj, I'm going to just go down my list and, you know, if there's anything that I (1:04:16) misunderstood in the documentary, correct me. Cause I have a comprehension problem sometimes.(1:04:21) So you talked about the photo shoot. I remember the beginning, the risque photo, right. With, (1:04:27) with, with Michael.What I found interesting, what I really liked about Danny is Danny, (1:04:34) for example, had juror eight and juror nine. I think he had two jurors, but in your case, (1:04:38) you spoke about that, but there, was there anyone else that he had recorded to corroborate (1:04:42) what you had said or any of your brothers or anybody get why he, anyone else wasn't on footage, (1:04:49) you know, just to get on record for that. You mean in terms of the photo shoot? (1:04:53) Yeah.The photo shoot part. Cause remember, I remember that being a big emphasis in beginning (1:04:57) about this, you know, the sensuality or the sexuality of the photos and that, that one (1:05:01) guy saying how, you know, that's all he wanted to do was take pictures of boys or some. (1:05:07) No, I mean, there were people there, you know, in terms of that, Karen Faye has spoke up about it (1:05:12) in terms of, you know, so there were, yeah.Okay. I just want to make sure it wasn't only (1:05:18) had you on it. Yeah, no, it was, it was a limited set, but it wasn't like just Michael and us.(1:05:24) Right. Right. And that way.So that's why I'm, you know, they can't go too far on it because (1:05:29) there are people that have collaborated and said basically, no, no, no, we were there. I mean, (1:05:35) first of all, I, you know, I'm very bashful about my body in general, you know, in that way, (1:05:42) but we were at that time with 3T, we were called, you know, we were sex symbols and (1:05:47) yeah, you're a hot, like a hot commodity type thing. And I actually had a six pack at one point, (1:05:51) you know, you know, it was one of those things, but we also were, you know, our main target (1:05:57) audience was women and we were trying to be sexy for them in that way.And, you know, (1:06:01) we were known as kind of like a saccharine group in terms of very, you know, we were in the time (1:06:06) that like Jodeci was and Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre. So we were, you know, we weren't very edgy in that, (1:06:13) in that. And so we, we wanted to do something that cut more and something that people could (1:06:17) talk about.And, you know, we trusted our uncle because he's the one that out of anyone in the (1:06:22) world, we would have trusted because we knew that he would have the photos and that it wouldn't get (1:06:28) out and leak and all that stuff. And little did we know that the other people leaked it anyway, (1:06:34) but that's how we looked at it. It was like, if we're going to do it, we're going to do it now.(1:06:37) We're not going to do it in Germany with some photographer we don't know. We're going to do it, (1:06:42) you know, with our uncle who we trust and we know that we're in good hands. And that's what we did.(1:06:49) Can I just tell you something funny? I'm a big glam metal hair metal guy from the 80s. (1:06:55) And that album cover is the least risque thing I've ever seen. (1:06:58) Isn't it crazy? It's like, it's, but that's, you know, it's like, they, they, they take (1:07:05) something small and they make it so big in terms of like, they, they want the, they over-exaggerate (1:07:12) it to the point where it's like folklore.But I know, and especially for like magazine or, (1:07:18) you know, I mean, this is at a time when Janet had that cover with, you know, with her husband, (1:07:23) Renee, where the hands were over her. I mean the Rolling Stone. Yes.Yes. Yes. Rolling Stone (1:07:28) picture.Yeah. You know? So I'm like, you know, we were just like, it's like, you know, that's (1:07:33) a thing. It's like, but yeah.So it's just like one of those things that is just so frustrating (1:07:37) because it's like, you know, I don't know. It's just, I think people look at it differently when (1:07:43) it comes to Michael Jackson and it's like, Oh, that's proof of this, this, and this. And I just (1:07:47) with square one, it was so mean that you could see it the way I was talking.It was just so (1:07:52) annoying because for me, that's one of the great memories I had because he had, he was filming (1:07:57) stranger in Moscow at that time. And it was a great, you know, I don't have, I have a lot of (1:08:03) memories of my uncle, but I don't have specific memories of my uncle. And that was one of my (1:08:07) specific memories I have.Like I can remember, you know, the, the soundstage, I can remember (1:08:12) everything about it, you know? And it's like to have someone that doesn't even know him and (1:08:18) doesn't even know me, try and dirty that experience and pervert it for their own gain. (1:08:23) That bothers me because they don't know the intentions. I know the intentions because I was (1:08:27) there.Right. I totally get what you're saying. It's, it's pretty interesting.So I guess my, (1:08:33) my deeper question, once again, it's more for clarification, um, is you seem to be the (1:08:40) patriarch cause you're the oldest brother. Is that correct? For the, for three, for the (1:08:44) three T or for the family? Yeah. I'm just curious why T uh, TJ or, uh, or your other (1:08:51) brother tower tower, right.Uh, why they didn't get on square one, I guess just once again, (1:08:56) this is more just like the more information, the more people you have staying, obviously the, (1:09:00) the more secure your, your argument is or defense. I think just cause I had a relationship with (1:09:06) Danny already, I had done something with him and it was, and it was something to be honest. (1:09:11) I didn't know how big square one was going to be.I had done so many interviews and so this was (1:09:16) just another interview of doing, and it was almost like, okay, I can fit it in here. Let's, I mean, (1:09:21) I hate how I look in square one. I, you know, in terms of that, the angle and everything, (1:09:26) I remember that day and I just like, I would have changed a lot of stuff, but it was just one of (1:09:31) many interviews that I was doing.And I think with my brothers to just, you know, one of the (1:09:35) things is like, even with our family and I've had family members come up to me and they're like, (1:09:39) you're doing such an amazing job. And it's like, so it's like, I think sometimes when there's too (1:09:46) many people saying stuff, it clouds, it clouds everything in terms of, you know, that way. (1:09:52) And my brother TJ has gone on, you know, when he was doing his music and stuff like that, (1:09:56) he's gone on plenty of, of things and talked about my uncle and, you know, how frustrating (1:10:01) is about the media and stuff like that.And, and Terrell's more private in that way. He won't do (1:10:06) that. But he, I mean, he will if he's asked, you know, but he won't just volunteer to go on an (1:10:12) interview or something like that.And it's just, that's the reason there was no other reason. It's (1:10:16) just, I was in the kind of the groove of being interviewed. And so they were like, okay, you got (1:10:21) it.Yeah. I think you make a really good point too, about it being centralized. If, if it's (1:10:26) coming through one solitary voice of the family, that's good.How have you been handling that (1:10:32) pressure? I mean, have you been doing this for the, since 93 or since whatever, 80 or something, (1:10:40) or, you know, real quick with the, my brothers, we did do a interview in France together. We (1:10:45) weren't in France, but we did an interview for France about leaving Neverland. And so, you know, (1:10:50) when the opportunity does arise, you know, that's, we do do interviews together.It was just, (1:10:55) that was it, square one was kind of, you know, a quick one in that way. But yeah, I mean, (1:11:01) me and my brothers, it's funny, you know, because my uncle was always around, we always would tell (1:11:06) him, cause we always saw the lies that he had to deal with. And we saw how it affected him.(1:11:10) And we always told him, we're like, we'll be your soldiers. Like we'll be the person, you know, (1:11:15) you don't, cause he, he took it to heart, you know, even though his person, you know, the persona that (1:11:20) many people saw was like, oh, I got rhinoceros skin and, you know, it doesn't bother me. (1:11:25) It did bother him.He was a sensitive person and it, you know, especially when people were lying (1:11:31) about him. And so since the beginning, we were always like, we'll be your general, we're going (1:11:36) to be the ones that, that, you know, we're not going to let you just go into this battle alone. (1:11:43) And one of the things I did was, you know, when then, as you said, when the 93 allegations hit, (1:11:50) we were the first ones there, you know, out of everyone to just, cause we were able to (1:11:56) be there for him.And same thing with the 2005, I, I left, you know, my apartment and moved to (1:12:04) Neverland cause I wanted to be there every day for him. Cause I knew this was going to be very (1:12:09) hard for him. And I was there every day of that trial and before the trial in terms of, (1:12:14) I wanted him to know that he had support.And, and then, you know, one of the things is, is that (1:12:23) what do you give the person that's has everything, you know, well, when he's no longer around, (1:12:28) you know, you can defend him and you can stand up for him. And that's what I did. Cause, (1:12:33) and I feel honored to do that.Cause I feel like I'm finally giving back to him. He gave me (1:12:38) everything, you know, without question. And now I can give something back to him in that way.So I (1:12:44) feel honored doing this. Yes. It's been a nightmare.Yes. It's been the hardest thing. I've bit my (1:12:50) tongue thousands of times where it's bleeding.I have a daughter that was basically born like (1:12:57) two, two months before leaving Neverland came out. And I had to make that decision. What do I do? (1:13:06) Do I just, do I be selfish and, you know, raise my daughter and just let, let's leave Neverland, (1:13:13) take its course or do I stand up for my uncle? And it didn't take long for me to just see my daughter (1:13:19) and look into her eyes and go, I'm not going to let her grow up in a world that thinks Michael (1:13:24) Jackson's a child molester.It's the, it ends here. And that's why I do it. I do it for her.(1:13:31) I do it. I, I see her and I'm like, I'm not going to let her live in this, in a world that thinks (1:13:36) this way because it's not true. And so that keeps me going, but I do miss out on a lot of things (1:13:41) from her, but it's a sacrifice.How do you take care of yourself emotionally and spiritually (1:13:47) to make sure you're not, I don't even know how to say it. I know what you mean. Okay.(1:13:55) It's, it's called unplugging at times. I mean, one tweet on Twitter can ruin your day, (1:14:01) especially if it's very ignorant and that, and I've had to kind of step away or just like, (1:14:06) you could read 30 supportive tweets and one really nasty one, and it could really ruin your mood. (1:14:14) So you have to kind of unplug, you have to take a step back.I'm doing a project, (1:14:21) a project for my uncle right now where I have to study pedophilia in a way, in terms of like (1:14:28) cases and all that stuff. And it's like, it's, you mentioned it earlier. It's such a dirty feeling (1:14:34) that I literally have to watch like four comedies or whatever and space it out so that I don't, (1:14:41) you know, cause it's such, it's so dirty and so, you know, dark in a way.(1:14:46) And, and you were, and you were a victim as well. So it can dredge up all those same (1:14:50) feelings, emotions that, you know, you went through. (1:14:53) But I don't want to be naive either, you know, and I, in that way.And so I've studied those, (1:14:58) whether it was the Olympic scandal or, you know, it's like that, those kinds of things or Epstein or, (1:15:06) you know, or there's certain things that I've studied now because I've had to study in a way. (1:15:13) And one of the things that's always is interesting is that, you know, Michael didn't have, (1:15:20) there was a lot of stuff that Michael didn't have that they pretend that he had in terms of, (1:15:25) he didn't have, he had power with the fans. He didn't have power with the industry, (1:15:29) with the media, you know, which is what we're seeing with these other people.(1:15:33) They were very, they hid in plain sight because either people protected them or, you know, (1:15:39) or people basically, you know, the higher ups kind of were in cahoots with them in certain cases. (1:15:45) That wasn't Michael's case at all in that way. (1:15:48) Right.And what's interesting about that too is to your point is the Weinstein, right? (1:15:53) We're seeing Hollywood being exposed now. Yes. And it's very easy to take a single unique (1:16:00) individual who kind of is on the fringe, but made themselves right.The size that they were (1:16:07) and just everyone point their guns at them to deflect from themselves. (1:16:12) Deflect from the, I always say, you know, people say where there's smoke, there's fire. I go, no, (1:16:17) you know, where there's smoke, there's mirrors.And that's basically how I look at Hollywood right (1:16:22) now is that basically Michael was the smoke. Like they basically, yeah. I mean, we saw it clear as (1:16:28) day with Harvey.It's like wherever Harvey's name started coming up, here comes a Michael Jackson (1:16:33) story in that way. I mean, square one, I square one, sorry. Leaving Neverland debuted the same (1:16:40) at the same Sundance as Harvey's Harvey Weinstein's documentary.You even hear about (1:16:46) Harvey Weinstein's documentary. I didn't even know there was one. (1:16:50) And Harvey's was out.I mean, Harvey's was out first and scheduled first, but then it's like, (1:16:57) here comes Michael Jackson's documentary and it sucks up all the air. So to the point where no (1:17:01) one even talked about, I think it's untouchable that no one even talked about that documentary. (1:17:06) And that's the thing.That's how they play that game. (1:17:10) But also the U.S. premiere on HBO happened like the first week of his trial, I believe. (1:17:15) Yes, it did.And they kept pushing it back. That's the thing. The timing is like they wouldn't (1:17:21) give a date of when the premiere was going to happen until they knew kind of when Harvey's (1:17:25) trial was going to happen.So it's like it's all strategic in a way. You see it once you take, (1:17:32) once you, as I say, it's kind of like the matrix. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.(1:17:36) But it is to other people, they're like, oh, come on, or that's just coincidence. But there's (1:17:42) enough coincidences to now be like, OK, that's just how it was, especially when you realize that (1:17:48) Harvey did pay people to deflect. Yeah, it's crazy because Chris and I, (1:17:53) we are the guys who see the strings attached to the puppet.We see the man behind the curtain. (1:17:58) We can put that toothpaste back in the tube. We've always been advocates for just truth.(1:18:06) And look, I mean, it's so much bigger how this Michael Jackson incident, this whole thing (1:18:14) is showing how others are being or are using things and manipulating the world to their benefit. And (1:18:20) now they're being exposed. So it's even bigger than Michael.I mean, as big as this story is, (1:18:24) it's the entire industry being exposed for who they are. And they should be in that way. And (1:18:31) that's the thing.But even to the point they're still being protected in a way, the story should (1:18:36) be a lot bigger than it is. And Corey Feldman's been on this case talking about this since the (1:18:43) early 90s. And no one took him serious.And he's been very consistent about certain things of (1:18:49) Hollywood. But they already had their sights set on Michael Jackson. And that's all that they (1:18:56) cared about in a way.And even in Corey's book, Corey says, Michael was my protector. Michael's (1:19:01) the one that kept me away from that stuff. And in terms of the view, he was his escape from all (1:19:10) that stuff.And it's like, I always find that interesting because it's like, that's how he was (1:19:15) with me as well. He was my escape out of that world. He almost wanted to make sure I was okay (1:19:21) and that I would grow up, quote unquote, normal because I had that bad childhood.(1:19:27) ISKRA Right. And Corey also is a self-proclaimed victim of sexual abuse. So we're finding that.(1:19:34) And then obviously Macaulay Calkin's story and how he describes the bedroom. I mean, (1:19:39) what's really interesting is we hear bedroom, I hear four walls. You might have a bathroom (1:19:44) attached, but that's about it.The size of this, it's like a wing. I don't even know why you'd call (1:19:49) it a bedroom to begin with. (1:19:51) CURTIS His bedroom would be something that people would dream would be their house in a way.And I (1:19:59) just think it's interesting because the word bedroom, it already sounds sensual and same (1:20:04) thing with the word bed. And that's something to me and to, I know with my uncle in general, (1:20:10) this is a piece of furniture. If I would have said the same thing, like, oh, we watched movies (1:20:14) and then fell asleep on the couch, no one would have thought anything.But it's like, oh, we watched (1:20:18) movies and fell asleep in the bed. It's like, oh, whoa, what? And that's just, it's wording. (1:20:25) It literally is wording.It's just circumstance. But that's how we're conditioned because we see (1:20:31) bed as a thing for one thing only. And that's not only what a bed is used for.It can be used to (1:20:38) actually sit and watch movies and stuff, which is what we did. We'd watch three studios or whatever, (1:20:44) pop popcorn and throw it at the TV. And it was just, it was fun times and it was never (1:20:49) sinister.It was, trust me, I was looking through a different lens at that time, (1:20:55) you know, in general. If I would have seen any, like going back in my 30 years of, you know, (1:21:00) and going, okay, let's rewind. Let's see if anything in my brain could say that was weird (1:21:08) or that was uncomfortable.Or I saw how he did that with this person and that's not right. (1:21:14) I've not one time thought that because, and I've rewind plenty of times because (1:21:20) he didn't think like that in that way. And as many people want to try and (1:21:24) make it sound like he did, it wasn't what he thought.(1:21:28) Yeah. It's totally crazy. Like I said, it's like when you hear bedroom to your point, (1:21:32) you just hear room, bedroom.That's where all the magic happens, right? (1:21:38) It's almost like you're a victim of a bad word choice. Like don't call it a bedroom, (1:21:42) just call it like a wing of the house or something, you know? (1:21:44) But that's the thing. And especially with my uncle, it's like he didn't, you know, (1:21:48) he was so on the run and he didn't sleep much at all anyway.So it was like, it was just a room to (1:21:56) him in that way. He was always somewhere else. And it's just, I don't know.It's hard for me (1:22:03) because I just, I know the scenario and I know I'm putting on two hats. I know what the public (1:22:09) kind of, I'm not in a bubble. I know what that sounds like.And I, so I can understand certain (1:22:15) people's point of view, you know? Well, I would never let my kid blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. (1:22:19) I understand that. But you also didn't have the experience that my mom had where my mom did allow (1:22:24) that, you know, because my mom knew my uncle's heart.Just like, you know, if you know someone (1:22:30) well enough and you trust them, then it's like, I'm going to give an analogy. I hope it's a good (1:22:36) one or whatever. But if you have a friend that's gay and in terms of like a gay guy or whatever, (1:22:43) and he has a female friend, it's like they can sleep in the same bed and be fine with it because (1:22:51) they know, you know, the gay guy's not interested in her and she's not interested in him.(1:22:55) Yeah. There's no funny business going on. (1:22:57) Exactly.And she's not interested in him. So people would hear that and go, oh, (1:22:59) we went to Vegas and we shared the bed and all that. People wouldn't be like, oh, well that's (1:23:03) Or even two women like girlfriend.I was out with my girlfriend. (1:23:06) I've used that excuse too. But you know, I was sharing a bed and I'll say it and I'll explain (1:23:13) because I'm going to have to explain.I was sharing a bed with my best friend on one of my tours (1:23:17) because I was too cheap to buy another room because it would cut into my budget. So he slept (1:23:24) on one side and then, you know, his feet were in my face and I was, you know, in the other. (1:23:29) And then I had to change rooms because I was like, you know how this looks, (1:23:33) you know, people might assume because we're two guys that something's happening, (1:23:37) but he's just literally my best friend.And, you know, I don't want to pay for an extra room, (1:23:41) but it's just like, that's just society. That's just how people think. And, and so it's just, (1:23:47) it's just frustrating that people sometimes don't see past certain things.They're just like, oh, (1:23:52) well, I wouldn't do it that way. So it's guilty. (1:23:56) Right.I know exactly what you mean. Oh, go ahead, Jess. (1:23:58) Oh, no, it's just agreeing with you guys.(1:24:02) So going further down through the, the conversation, the, the negotiating of the (1:24:09) 20 million to the three, $350,000 scripts to down to one, was that all like recorded or how, (1:24:17) how did that conversation go? Is that all in documents that Danny provided in square one? (1:24:23) So in square one, Danny did play part of an audio clip that these conversations were recorded (1:24:32) between Anthony Pellicana, which was Michael's private investigator and Barry Rothman, who was (1:24:38) Evan Chandler's lawyer. And Pellicana was having press conferences where he would play these clips (1:24:44) for the public to, you know, report on. Of course, that kind of disappeared because I'm sure you (1:24:50) remember hearing about that when this was going on.I don't. No, not at all. (1:24:54) But that clip came from like archival news footage that Anthony Pellicana was playing.So (1:25:00) Anthony Pellicana, he did go to, he's out now, but he went to prison for wiretapping. So I'm (1:25:05) assuming he recorded a lot of conversations, but yeah. That would probably constitute wiretapping (1:25:11) for sure.Oh yeah. So I mean, it kind of checks out. Yeah.Interesting. Yeah. And so, you know, (1:25:19) as I was saying way, way, way back in this, I grew up kind of watching people try to extort my uncle, (1:25:27) you know, in general, in that way, it was, it was a part of life.And that's what was frustrating (1:25:32) was I don't think my uncle with his heart of hearts thought that this would get any traction (1:25:37) just because of who he was and because of how much he cared for children and going to orphanages. (1:25:43) I thought he thought the public would be, would see through it. And it just, it was the perfect (1:25:49) storm because it happened, as I said, with, you know, when current affair and hard copy were at, (1:25:54) at their biggest, you know, in terms of they were getting big numbers.(1:25:57) Right. And they were paying people to interview. So it was make up stories and, yeah, I mean, (1:26:03) I would have made up a story if I had known I would have said something, I'm sure I could (1:26:06) use the money.And so it, it, it, it basically shocked him in a way. He's like, how could these (1:26:13) people believe this? Look what, you know, I've done so much, you know, and why are these people (1:26:17) believing this? And he was at, and people forget he was at a town on tour at the time. So he was (1:26:23) getting the news of what was going on in America from other people in general, too, that some of (1:26:29) them didn't even want to tell him how bad it was.Some of them, you know, were panicking and telling (1:26:33) them how bad it was. So imagine that push pull to he's on stage and everyone there just screaming (1:26:39) his name, right? Then he gets to the, he gets to the hotel room to unwind and everyone's shitting (1:26:45) on him, basically. And, and I saw that push pull.I'm going to talk about it in my project, but (1:26:50) basically I can tell you a little about that. It destroyed him. It literally, he stopped eating.(1:26:56) And, you know, he had to be fed. What's it called? Intervenously? (1:27:03) Intervenously. Yeah.Yeah. No appetite because he couldn't think straight and he couldn't eat. (1:27:09) And there were times on tour that literally me and my brothers would prop him up on stage (1:27:16) right before he did his, right before he went on because he got a certain energy from the fans.And, (1:27:23) and it was like, he needed to re-energize, but he was like, the image still haunts me because I feel (1:27:30) like part of me feels like, was that the right thing to do? But then I know that the fans gave (1:27:35) him that love and energy and he needed that. You know, I almost feel like I, I feel guilty for (1:27:40) propping him up on a stage when he's like, you know, when he physically couldn't really even (1:27:45) stand at times, but then once that audience hit, he would liven up and then he turned, (1:27:51) he like turned on like a switch, turn on like a switch. And then he would, he'd be walking back (1:27:56) to the van and then he would just like either collapse or, you know, and it was like, it was (1:28:00) like deja vu in that way that that's what happened.And I always thought I was doing a good (1:28:06) thing because it was like, he was giving, showing him his love, the love that the people had, but (1:28:10) I can't imagine what he was going through. And that's kind of what my project is. It's kind of (1:28:15) like, okay, all these stories, how did it affect him? Because he's human and you know, he was a (1:28:23) private person and we've never heard really the stories of like how the rumors of this or the (1:28:29) rumors of that or whatever, how he had to deal with that and the people around him, what they (1:28:33) say in that way.And so that's kind of the unique scenario that I had that, you know, is kind of a (1:28:39) continuation of Square One in that way. But it's like, it was just devastating to be there. And (1:28:45) that's why people like Elizabeth Taylor that were there as well, you know, she was, from what I've (1:28:52) heard, she was one of the people that was, that had convinced him to settle.I have to be cautious (1:29:00) because I didn't hear it, hear it. So I'm just saying I, from what I've heard. (1:29:03) Right.And we can say allegedly, you know, we're, we're covering our bases. We're not (1:29:08) here to slander anyone. (1:29:09) No, no, no.I, first of all, she's, she was the most amazing person. (1:29:13) I can't imagine. (1:29:14) I mean, she was, she went to bat for my uncle, you know, and I even think if she was alive today, (1:29:19) this wouldn't have happened because she would have shut down all of Hollywood and put them in (1:29:23) their place.But I know what she thought, she thought it's only money. You know, you, you're (1:29:30) on tour, you have a career ahead of you. You just got, I think he got a ridiculous publishing (1:29:36) agreement, you know, for X, I think it was like 60 million or maybe it was $70 million.(1:29:41) So she's like, you have the whole, your whole life ahead of you. You know, why would, you know, (1:29:45) why would you get bogged down in this, make it go away in that way. And then we saw with (1:29:50) the criminal slash civil case in terms of which one was going to go first, that really put his (1:29:55) back against the wall because then it wasn't even a choice anymore.(1:29:59) It was. (1:29:59) Yeah. And I wanted, I was really curious about that.How the heck did the verdict on the (1:30:04) criminal case preceding the civil case get lost or whatever? (1:30:07) The argument by Larry Feldman, um, allegedly is that Jordan Chandler was too young and his memory (1:30:17) might be like fuzzy after some time. So that's why he was pushing for the civil case to go first. (1:30:25) And he wasn't helping the, he was letting the cops do their job.So he wasn't like, (1:30:30) oh, I got this info. Here you go, cops. They were doing their own thing.And the cops were (1:30:35) doing their criminal investigation and coming up empty-handed. (1:30:39) So Larry Feldman was like, I'm just going to keep doing this. And, you know, uh, it really (1:30:45) came down to, uh, Jordan Chandler not wanting to testify, but, uh, yeah, there was, that would (1:30:53) have been like the only cooperative evidence was his testimony in a criminal case, which (1:30:58) he didn't want to do then, or even as an adult later on in the Arvizo trial, which he also had (1:31:04) the opportunity to do, but he vehemently fought.He didn't want to. (1:31:09) And I think that also the settlement in the settlement, it, it never prevented anyone from (1:31:14) that family from testifying. So that's one of the things that always bothered me is they make it (1:31:18) sound like it's hush money.Well, if you, if they're still allowed to testify in a criminal (1:31:22) case, then where's the hush money, you know? That's a great point. And I'll, I'll be honest. (1:31:27) Whenever I see something settle it, the first knee jerk reaction, of course, without looking (1:31:33) at is what are they hiding? Right.I mean, we go that way. It's unfortunate the way we look at the (1:31:38) world like that, but that's kind of where we go. Well, I, I was going to say, I also think that, (1:31:43) you know, in terms of corporations would do that all the time, whether it was McDonald's with like, (1:31:48) you know, like the coffee being too hot and someone spilled, you know, they had a lawsuit (1:31:52) and they would just settle it out of court.Michael was the first artist or figure that (1:31:57) basically became the poster child of why you don't do that because you're now you're considered (1:32:02) guilty in that way. And I think a lot of people learn from that, but he didn't really have someone (1:32:07) ahead of him to go, okay, that's going to look really bad if I settle. Right.And, and to your (1:32:12) point, his hand was forced at this point because the civil trial was going forward, regardless of (1:32:17) the criminal part. Correct. And he made sure with the, with the settlement to say that it was (1:32:22) negligence, you know, and, and, and, you know, that he, there was no wrongdoing and he's presumed (1:32:28) or that he declares his innocence.He put all this stuff in that made him probably feel like, (1:32:33) okay, I'm putting this in so that people know that I'm innocent, but it didn't matter. Cause (1:32:38) the media just took it and ran with what they wanted to say anyway. Right.Well, it's like (1:32:42) when you get a speeding ticket, when you sign it, you're actually not signing an admission of guilt. (1:32:46) You're assigning that you got the ticket. Yes, exactly.So it's like, but you're going to sign (1:32:51) it. So you're like, oh, you must've been speeding. Well, no, I just signed acknowledgement of the (1:32:55) I'm sorry.I wanted to bring up is that Michael's team went to court four times to try to get the (1:33:04) criminal case pushed first. So, I mean, why would it, which I would have done as well. Right.(1:33:10) Obviously. Yeah. And so, but the reason why the judge sided with the Chandlers is because of (1:33:17) Larry Feldman's argument that Jordan was too young and his memory might become fuzzy.Yeah. And what (1:33:23) I love about, I mean, once again, out of this tragedy or out of this smear campaign comes (1:33:30) good things, right. You know, we've got an exposure of truth and now civil cases cannot go forward (1:33:36) unless the criminal case is completely, aren't there laws now in place that almost because it's (1:33:41) almost like a Michael Jackson law.Yeah. No, there was a lot. So that's great after.Yeah. (1:33:46) It's great for them. You know what I mean? Right.It's a great result. Right. And they'll (1:33:49) come out of this tragedy.Exactly. And that's the thing. I mean, I think, (1:33:53) you know, it's just hard because yeah, the civil case, if that was allowed to go first, (1:33:58) it would have been the equivalent of like, you know, a championship game of a team and they get (1:34:04) to watch the other team practice and see all the plays, you know, that's literally what it would (1:34:08) have been.And so that's why just, you know, mentioned that the lawyers, you know, went four (1:34:14) times to kind of get the criminal case ahead of it. So almost like, no, let's play the big game (1:34:19) first, you know, because I don't want them to see all the plays. And that's kind of what is (1:34:25) happening with the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard thing right now.She took notes, basically, you know, (1:34:30) from this case, the case that they're going through. She was there every day taking notes (1:34:34) because she has another case coming up. So now she knows what exactly what Johnny's going to say, (1:34:39) what their lawyers are going to say.So she can adjust and she can kind of fill in the (1:34:43) blanks of certain things. So in a way, it's very similar in that aspect of it. And that's the way (1:34:49) I kind of look at it.It's like, okay, now I see what that means. Yeah, that's, that's crazy. (1:34:54) Oh, go ahead, Jess.On another note, as far as having like fair juries and stuff like that for (1:35:00) court system, the DA was really after Michael Jackson. Taj, did you ever hear about Tom Sneddon (1:35:09) from Michael? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.Yeah. I mean, I can't say much about in terms of he was, you know, (1:35:16) I mean, he was after him. It was almost like it was beyond a vendetta.It was like a personal (1:35:22) grudge in a way. And it's like out for blood, like almost like this is going to make my career. (1:35:31) So I'm going to get this guy.That was a big question of mine, too, (1:35:35) especially with this is with all the eyes on it. I mean, one of the things that prosecutors (1:35:39) criminally need is is persecution, right? They need to have the verdict in their favor because (1:35:45) they have metrics that matter. It seems like the criminal case was pretty it was decided pretty (1:35:51) quickly, right? The verdict was came in pretty quickly.It was two weeks, two weeks and obviously (1:35:57) not guilty on all 14 counts. Right. Correct.So it's curious why they would have pushed forward (1:36:03) seeing that the outcome was so different than what they went in for, you know, (1:36:08) makes it look bad. I mean, it makes it look bad that you've lost on all four. You got 14 counts.(1:36:13) I think arrogance, arrogance and maybe overconfidence in the media and pushing the (1:36:19) narrative in that way. I mean, they were controlling the press conferences. They were, (1:36:24) you know, if they could paint Michael to be this weird, you know, outsider kind of guy, (1:36:29) you know, then maybe they could get I mean, I don't think they they anticipated maybe getting (1:36:34) the public on their side.But I don't think they anticipated how good Tom was in terms of talking (1:36:40) to that jury and then seeing Michael as, quote, unquote, a human, you know, which is what they (1:36:47) did. They got to see Michael as a human and actually see. No, this guy that I'm looking at (1:36:53) right now is not the guy that they're trying to make me think he is.Right. Like they were trying (1:36:59) to dehumanize him in a way. And.Yeah. Yeah. Which is which is their whole tactic.Yeah. (1:37:06) It's always been their tactic. And I mean, with everything like they it's almost like not only (1:37:11) larger than life, but just like he's more like a cartoon character.So and people still to this day (1:37:17) like don't have problems saying bad things about him because it's like they're like, oh, it's not (1:37:21) going to hurt anyone. And but it's like he has kids. He has a mother.He has brothers. He has a sister. (1:37:26) I'm a sister.She has, you know, family. It does hurt people, you know, but they don't see it that (1:37:31) way because it's almost like he's such a big, you know, figure in that way. So.Yeah, it's it's (1:37:38) amazing. So going through that some more. November 12th, 1995, something about Jordan Chandler (1:37:49) emancipating from his parents.Do you guys have any more insight on that? It was just kind of (1:37:53) brushed over in the documentary, but I was really curious if you guys had any more information on (1:37:58) that. I'm looking right now. I have my arsenal.I call it. Excellent. Just you know, that was (1:38:05) before the the like what the father fight with him that because they got in a altercation.(1:38:14) Was there was an altercation between Evan Chandler and David Schwartz. I believe it was summer of 96. (1:38:23) Yeah, I got the file here.It's July 22nd, 1996. Evan Chandler versus David in June. (1:38:33) Sorry, I should have.No, that's OK. I kind of I kind of jumped in. But but basically to help (1:38:38) help Taj to your point, it was something about Evan beat up Jordan.Yeah. And I was curious why (1:38:45) there were there ever criminal charges also against Evan or was it just the emancipation (1:38:51) or how to how that all kind of came together? So you're talking about Evan and Jordan. And that (1:38:55) happened.Yes. In 2005, right around the trial. Let's see.On July 7th, 2005. This was after the (1:39:06) verdict. Yeah, it was a complaint.It was an improper behavior, harassment, improper making (1:39:14) communications. There was a restraining order, a restraining order that was filed. (1:39:21) But it wasn't the it wasn't the criminal charges, right, because there was an actual physical.So (1:39:25) he hit him with something. Yeah, I thought there was like it was like a baseball bat or something (1:39:29) like that. But I read that in a paper of something.So it's not something that I. Yeah. Yeah. But in (1:39:37) square one, they also talked about the emancipation of Jordan Chandler.But that was 10 years prior, (1:39:42) 1995. OK, I'm just curious, is that I mean, does that kind of play into the whole story of how (1:39:48) his parents and and Jordan were not really on the same page? Well, I mean, Jordan's never publicly (1:39:55) spoken, so I'm not going to speak on his behalf. But June, his mother did testify in that trial (1:40:01) and she had said she testified 2005.She hadn't spoken to her son in 11 years. So that would have (1:40:07) put 1994 right around the time of the settlement. So I mean, it's the whole situation is sad for (1:40:14) Jordan.Yeah, it's sad for Jordan. And I truly believe that like he he got put in a situation. (1:40:23) And yeah, I mean, for you to get emancipated from your parents just shows it kind of speaks, (1:40:29) you know, volumes in my in my, you know, especially the timing of that.(1:40:33) Yeah, I have the file here with the assault, says the judge found that plaintiff had proved that he (1:40:39) and his father, the defendant, were members of the same household when defendants struck him on (1:40:43) the head from behind with a twelve and one half pound weight and then sprayed his eyes with mace (1:40:47) or pepper spray and tried to choke him. Jeez. So no, that is like a dumbbell or a barbell.(1:40:53) Are you kidding me? This is unbelievable. But that's that's the stuff that I mean, (1:40:58) you went down that rabbit hole and kind of dug that up. But most people don't even know that, (1:41:03) you know, in that way.And that's, you know, that's right, because the character, the parents, (1:41:08) I mean, the parents are the ones suing on behest of the child, the child who doesn't seem to be (1:41:14) voluntarily cooperating and all this stuff. It just it just adds more cloud or more shadow to this, (1:41:22) you know, to to what people are saying to the narrative of Michael Jackson is this person, (1:41:29) you know? Yeah. And I think there's there's this there's this conversation that I want to (1:41:34) about the nineteen ninety three, I call it the extortion case as opposed to the settlement.(1:41:40) But Chandler says, you know, Michael, the career will be over and this works, which is, (1:41:46) you know, says, does that help Geordie? And then Chandler says this is Evan Chandler says (1:41:52) Michael's career will be over and Swartz goes, and does that help Geordie? And Chandler goes, (1:41:57) it's irrelevant to me. And that was and that was recorded on audio. Yeah, we I was definitely in (1:42:04) the in the documentary and that just that turned my stomach that your father's using you and not (1:42:10) even I don't know how not even caring about, you know, I mean, when my mom didn't tell my dad about (1:42:15) my abuse and as Jess said, because my dad would have killed him, you know, literally, I know my (1:42:21) dad and he found out when I publicly announced it.And I know why my mom didn't tell my dad, (1:42:29) because my dad would have probably went down there and the guy wouldn't be a lot, (1:42:33) wouldn't have been alive for much longer, because that's what, you know, the anger (1:42:38) and what the parent would have done. I've seen my dad won a fight. What's it called? (1:42:44) The, I guess, people that sell, you know, fake merchandise, you know, on our tour.(1:42:49) Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. (1:42:50) Scott, you know, the, he literally in your (1:42:54) unlicensed, like the unlicensed stuff, right? The t shirts, and (1:42:58) he wanted to go down and fight the guys and, and our security is like, you don't want to (1:43:04) fight them. They're gangsters, you know, and my dad's like, I don't care.They're ripping off my (1:43:07) sons. And and so that's my dad. So that if he's willing to do that for some t shirts, (1:43:14) you know, he's like the true head of your household, right? He's like a protector.(1:43:17) Yeah, if he's willing to do that for some stupid three t t shirts that are, you know, (1:43:21) then I can't imagine what he would have done if he found out. (1:43:26) Oh, wow, I just started to go back on to the emancipation thing. But I just found the file (1:43:33) written to Jordan from his legal team.And it's dated June 13 1995. 10 years to the date (1:43:41) before Michael's exoneration. But it says your journey we have received your copy of the petition (1:43:48) petition for emancipation, which we propose to file, but I could send this guy to you guys.(1:43:54) Wow. Can you just give us like two sentences of why he wanted to do that? (1:44:00) Since it doesn't, it doesn't say, okay. It says even though juvenile court files are confidential, (1:44:06) that in my opinion, is insufficient to protect you against a claim that you have breached the (1:44:10) agreement in the underlying case.It's a bunch of like legal stuff, but there's no specific (1:44:15) reason given. Charlie Brown's mom. Okay.Gotcha. Exactly. (1:44:26) So is there anything else, Chris, that you had about square one or any other questions? (1:44:29) Yeah.Do you guys have anything? Oh, my last question is, objectively speaking, (1:44:38) I would like you guys to both answer this. How do you guys see the future of square one? I mean, (1:44:45) what do you in the coming months, years, what do you hope it's going to do? What do you think (1:44:52) it's going to do? How do you see this all playing out? Do you want to go first, Jess? (1:44:58) I think that after this podcast, it's done worldwide. (1:45:04) Thank you.Yeah. I just, I don't know. I, we just really hope it's all grassroots (1:45:11) and they needed such an amazing job.I just really hope it gets out to more and more people. So (1:45:16) I know it's opened the door for other projects and yeah. (1:45:22) Yeah.I'm very proud of score one. I, you know, I was just interviewed, but a lot of people think (1:45:27) I have more to do with it. I've helped promote it because I stand behind it.But, you know, (1:45:33) I didn't help fund it at all. I didn't do anything, didn't do any of the heavy lifting of anything, (1:45:37) just went to the premiere and loved it. And, you know, I'm a big supporter of it.But one of the (1:45:43) things I can tell you is that it's changed a lot of people's minds just because it's a story that (1:45:49) people haven't heard because the media hasn't been fair enough to tell that side of the story. (1:45:54) So a lot of stuff sounds new. It shouldn't sound new because it's been there since 93, (1:45:59) you know, if you knew where to look, but it is new.And Danny and his team did such a great job (1:46:06) of putting it in such a way that it's under, it's easy to understand and easy to digest to the point (1:46:13) where you get it, you understand it. And, you know, it's like, it should leave you angry at (1:46:20) the end, like, oh my gosh, I was duped or I can't believe that I thought this way. And, you know, (1:46:26) the best thing for me would be as, would be the people that used to rock Michael Jackson, but (1:46:34) don't, didn't feel good to, like one of you guys said in terms of, it felt dirty, but now you've (1:46:40) seen Square One and you realize, okay, I was wrong and I'm rocking them more than ever now.And I (1:46:46) think that's the thing, the power of Square One in that way, because it not only just, you know, (1:46:51) it's, it presents the facts and it allows you to go and, and look them up and research them (1:46:56) in a way. And it's kind of like the, gets you into that rabbit hole quicker. (1:47:04) My last question is, can you tell us about your next project Taj? (1:47:08) Oh yeah, definitely.I mean, and it's interesting, it's, it's kind of been evolving because look, (1:47:14) I would like nothing more to not have to do a project because, you know, Michael, (1:47:18) people have seen, you know, the truth and now all of a sudden everyone is like, oh, (1:47:23) Michael's innocent. You know, it's, it's happening, but it's happening pretty slowly. Square One's (1:47:28) been a huge leap in that way.And one of the things that I've always had to do is evolve in (1:47:34) terms of like, okay, what does this project need to be? Because I knew Square One was in the pipeline. (1:47:39) Other things are in the pipeline and I don't want to rehash a lot of the same stuff unless it's (1:47:46) needed to. And so for me, my projects has always been in terms of, okay, who was Michael Jackson? (1:47:53) Because that is something that a lot of people forgot, or a lot of people just didn't know in (1:47:59) general.And there's a whole generation of people that grew up that don't know him at all, just (1:48:04) know the tabloids and the headlines. And so I truly believe once you get to know who Michael (1:48:10) Jackson was and what he stood for, you'll realize that these, this case, these cases, (1:48:16) and in terms of, you know, the, the allegation, they really don't have a leg to stand on once (1:48:21) you realize. And so my whole job is to get the people that were closest to him, his friends, (1:48:27) his coworkers, you know, his family, and basically not kind of speak for him in a way, (1:48:35) you know, because he's not here to speak for himself.And so if it was a eulogy, it would (1:48:39) be something similar to that, but it's not going to shy away from, you know, the, the controversies (1:48:45) because, you know, his life was filled with controversies. And I think that actually shaped (1:48:50) him, whether it was good or bad or, you know, the, the 2005 case is the reason he's still, (1:48:57) he's not around anymore. Yeah.I think that case literally destroyed him. I don't think he was, (1:49:02) it almost set him up for it. I have to be careful how I say this, but it wasn't for me.It wasn't, (1:49:09) it was a matter of, well, how long does he have? Because it's just like, it destroyed his soul. (1:49:14) It destroyed his spirit, you know? And that was one of my questions was coming out of that, (1:49:20) like, did that break him? Did that start the substance abuse of, I don't know, (1:49:24) you have his fentanyl or some kind of opioid, obviously increasing and leading to his (1:49:30) not waking up one morning? Well, he's, he's always had a hard time sleeping because he's, you know, (1:49:36) part of, and I'm not a genius. So when I say part of being a genius, it's not me, (1:49:41) but you know, what I've studied, but yeah, because their brain works so fast and they have (1:49:46) millions of things going on.They don't sleep. Like they, they want to get to everything. And, (1:49:51) and that's always been the case with my uncle in that way.And, and with, this is it, (1:49:55) you know, it was like, besides the pressure of having to deliver, you know, he's, it was 50 (1:50:02) shows, you know, at the O2, which was never been done. And it like, it, I mean, it was just such (1:50:10) a ridiculous record that he did. It was almost like it put everyone, you know, wondering is (1:50:15) does Michael Jackson still have it? It put them in the shame, basically, because I think Prince (1:50:21) had sold, Jess, you might know this, like, I think 20 concerts.I knew it was less than 50. (1:50:27) It's all I know. It was like 20 something concerts at the O2.And it's just like, and Prince is huge (1:50:33) and Prince is one of my idols. And so it just, I think one of the things is, yeah, my uncle was (1:50:39) never the same. And, and I want to show that, like, because he's human.And there's certain (1:50:46) things like the Pepsi commercial that burnt his scalp, you know, third degree burns on his scalp. (1:50:51) He was never the same after that. That was the height of his career.And he gets these burns (1:50:55) that he had to live with. I mean, they literally stapled his scalp back together. (1:51:01) Your dad was there for that.(1:51:02) Oh yeah. And, and, and I lived with my uncle's pain. Like every once in a while, (1:51:07) he would make this sound and, and he'd say my scalp.And that didn't stop, you know, five years (1:51:14) later, 10 years, that was through his whole life. He was still having that pain. So he was always on (1:51:19) pain medication for that anyway.So it was like, what if that Pepsi commercial never would have (1:51:25) happened? You know, would he have been introduced to pain medication? So it's like, there's so many (1:51:30) things, you know, or, or his accident that he had, you know, on tour where I forgot which song it was, (1:51:36) where the, the thing that he, that the lifter song, yeah, the lifter thing drops down, you know, (1:51:42) and, and hurts his back. It's like, there's certain things that contribute to, you know, (1:51:48) it wasn't like, he's like, Oh, I like how these drugs fill in terms of this pain medicine, (1:51:52) medication. Let me just take them.It's like that and the constant bullying. It's like, (1:51:57) you know, it's interesting because people are sympathetic when it's not Michael Jackson. If (1:52:02) heard that story from someone else, and they were constantly bullied and made fun of and, (1:52:07) you know, they were taking pain medication and numb the world around them, you'd be like, Oh, (1:52:11) that's very sad.You know, I can't believe these people did that to him. But when Michael Jackson, (1:52:16) it's like, Oh, he's a druggie. You know, he Yeah, like, what does he have to be feeling bad about? (1:52:22) Yeah, yeah, he overdosed, you know, and I hated that word overdose because, you know, the doctor (1:52:27) Yeah, but I mean, he was, you know, Yeah, well, it was a, it stopped breathing.So it's just, (1:52:33) that was not a good situation for sure. One misconception is that he was just like, (1:52:38) completely addicted to drugs after the trial. And that's not completely true.Like, (1:52:43) doing the research, I found that he actually put himself through rehab. Yeah. Like 2006 or (1:52:51) I know, I think it was too.It was before he passed away. But he was not trying to keep pursuing (1:52:57) that. I just, yes, wanted to put that out there.He wasn't just like, Yeah, yeah. And I hope I hope (1:53:03) I wasn't accusing that. Oh, no, you weren't.You had a line of questioning. But But I can see, (1:53:09) you know, your spirits broken. And I come from addiction.And I'm familiar, you know, (1:53:15) the addiction is the effect, not the cause. A lot of time, you know, to your point, (1:53:19) obviously, pain medication form a traumatic physical experience in the Pepsi commercial. (1:53:23) And I recall that I remember the lift with his back.Yeah. But I'm just talking about the spirit (1:53:29) being shattered. When the world is looking at you as this criminal, and you're still, you know, (1:53:36) you're top of the world still, it's, yeah, it's that push pull that we kind of talked about earlier.(1:53:41) But But Taj, to your point, I'm really curious about your project. Is it? Is it just gonna be (1:53:46) much more personal? And it is, but it's also, you know, it's gonna go through the controversies, (1:53:51) because, you know, I'm not going to skate through those. Anyway, you know, if I skate through them, (1:53:55) then people will be like, Oh, he's just trying to hide something.I think what I would love (1:53:59) is for this, my project to be something and it's a multi episode project. It's because I can't get (1:54:05) it all in one episode or two episodes is 2030 40 years down the line, someone picks this up, (1:54:12) and they realize who Michael Jackson was, and what his life was, because it's almost like the (1:54:18) tabloids have had their at the tabloids and the mainstream media have had their chance to tell (1:54:23) their Michael story. But that's not who Michael was.And everyone that knows him knows that. And (1:54:29) but he was such a private person. And he didn't believe in, you know, in going on TV and defending (1:54:35) himself.I mean, he had to at certain times, but he he tried to look past it. And that was one of (1:54:40) I don't want to say his faults, but that was one of the things that that's why we don't have so (1:54:44) much on him defending himself in certain ways was because he just kind of thought it would blow over. (1:54:50) And also, in some places, he couldn't, like with the Chandler settlement, (1:54:54) they were not allowed to speak about it.Yeah. And when he finally did say something, (1:54:58) I think it's Diane Sawyer, they sued him. You know, when he said he was innocent, (1:55:03) they sued him.Yeah. So it's like, you know, but people don't understand that or know that. And (1:55:09) so there's a lot to uncover, and especially as someone like me, that's been literally there from, (1:55:16) you know, his star on the Hollywood, you know, Walk of Fame.I was right there in those pictures (1:55:20) right next to him with my brothers, you know, to on the set of Moonwalker on the set of Captain EO. (1:55:27) You know, I've witnessed it all. I've seen it all in that way.And he was the most amazing person. (1:55:34) And of course, people are gonna say, oh, he's your uncle. But I'm talking about people that (1:55:38) he wasn't related to, in a way, like workers, and, you know, makeup artists and stuff like that will (1:55:43) tell you the exact same thing.You know, if you talk to Karen Faye, she'll tell you the exact same (1:55:47) thing. You talk to Carol LeMire, she'll say the exact same thing. But it's like, but they can (1:55:53) agree on one thing, Michael was amazing.And Michael would never have done that. And that's (1:55:58) what tells me, you know, all these people that, you know, can't agree on one thing, but they can (1:56:02) you know, on Michael Jackson. And that's how I always look at it.I've never, ever thought, (1:56:10) okay, what about this? Or what about that? I've looked at it through the lens of someone that (1:56:15) had been abused before. And I can tell you, my uncle was one of those rare people that just, (1:56:21) he really cared about children. And there's that.It's that one speech that he says, (1:56:28) I think he's half, like, it's a slurry speech. And I forgot who recorded him without him knowing. (1:56:37) Was it Murray that recorded him? (1:56:38) Yeah.(1:56:39) And it's like, you could tell he's half out of it. And he's talking about- (1:56:43) Can you tell us who Murray is real quick, just for- (1:56:45) Murray's a guy- (1:56:46) Yeah, you want to say it, Jess? (1:56:48) He's the person who is charged with murdering Michael Jackson, like legally. (1:56:53) He was the doctor.(1:56:55) He's the doctor? Okay. (1:56:56) He was the doctor that was supposed to administer the right amount and whatever. And then, (1:57:02) Murray basically records my uncle without him knowing.And my uncle's like half out of it. (1:57:10) And my uncle, in that time, is talking about building the biggest children hospital. And (1:57:17) that's one of his goals in life, to help the kids and to build this hospital.And I just (1:57:22) thought that was so amazing. I think when you're half out of it, or when you're drunk or any of (1:57:29) those things, when your inhibitions are gone, you tell the truth a lot in that way. And that was (1:57:36) what my uncle wanted to do with all his inhibitions gone and whatever.He wanted to help kids and (1:57:45) build a children's hospital for them. And I'm talking about the biggest one in the world. (1:57:50) That's how he was.He was like that. He'd visit orphanages and hospitals. No press there.(1:57:58) As he said, he would visit more hospitals and orphanages than he did concerts. (1:58:03) He would secretly either donate money for liver transplants or he would be on it and make sure a (1:58:12) kid had a liver transplant or this or that. And one of the things for Square One, when we were (1:58:17) doing promotion in Holland, I got to meet someone that basically her life was saved by my uncle.(1:58:25) And it brought me to tears because I've always known how generous he was and how much he cared (1:58:31) and stuff like that. But just her story and he just was like that. Whether it was Dave-Dave, (1:58:40) which a lot of people don't know is his dad.There's a custody battle between his dad and (1:58:48) his mom and his dad poured gasoline on him and lit him on fire. And so he had severe burdens. (1:58:55) And my uncle saw the story and befriended Dave-Dave throughout his whole life.(1:59:01) Dave-Dave spoke at the memorial or the private memorial, not the public one. (1:59:06) And it was just amazing because my uncle always made sure Dave-Dave was taken care of. He always (1:59:12) made him feel special.He said, you're not weird, you're special. And Dave-Dave always felt special (1:59:19) because he had Michael Jackson as a friend. And I always just Ryan White, same thing when Ryan White (1:59:24) was diagnosed with HIV and AIDS, his own school would not let him participate because they didn't (1:59:33) know.This is when AIDS was- Right. HIV was so new and scary and just unknown, right? (1:59:40) Yeah. And so what my uncle does is he invests his own money to basically find out about AIDS.And (1:59:44) he brings Ryan to his house and lets Ryan swim in the pool and everything to feel normal (1:59:51) in that way and hang out with him. That's so magnanimous. Such a great story.(1:59:55) And it is. And his mother tells it so well, Janine. I hope to have her be interviewed for (2:00:04) my project.But it's like, those are the kind of stories. And bought him his car that he... (2:00:11) I guess it was a car that he was dreaming of having and my uncle saw it and bought it for him. (2:00:17) And it's just like, those are things that my uncle did not have to do.And they make it seem (2:00:22) with Leaving Neverland that he was grooming every kid that he met. And that's beyond... He just was (2:00:29) generous. He just cared about people.And he paid for my high school, my college and whatever. (2:00:36) And so I get really irritated with the word grooming. I know that happens with a lot of cases, (2:00:41) but my uncle was just generous and there's a difference.And they made it seem like his (2:00:47) grooming was dirty. Well, if they can pin the atrocities of a child abuser to him, (2:00:55) if they can pin those allegations, then they can say that what he was doing was grooming. (2:00:59) And he was hiding.Oh, well, he's donating to children hospitals because he's hiding the (2:01:05) fact that he's a blah, blah, blah. These are crazy. And I've heard them all.I've heard them (2:01:10) all in interviews of people saying that in that way. Of course he did that because he wanted to (2:01:14) do this or that. And I've heard them pad the numbers because the average child molester, (2:01:22) when given the opportunity, has hundreds of victims.And so they try and throw in all these (2:01:27) people just because they need victims. But the fact of the matter is all these kids that from (2:01:35) the Macaulay Culkins to the Corey Feldman to the Johnny Spences have adamantly defended Michael, (2:01:40) even to the point where in 93, 94, when police were going up to the kids and their families (2:01:49) lying, saying, we have pictures of Michael with kids when we need you to help us bring them down (2:01:55) in that way. That's what they were telling these people.They weren't saying, (2:02:00) well, we suspect. They were making it sound like he was this monster. (2:02:03) Right.They were implying it. So they were already putting it. (2:02:07) In these people's heads.And to a testament of the families, they were like, well, that's not (2:02:13) Michael. No, I'm not doing that because that's not true. And a lot of stuff because they knew him (2:02:18) and they knew his true heart.And Corey Feldman says it. Johnny Spence says that's what they did (2:02:25) in terms of they were after him. They secretly tapped his phones.I can't tell you how many (2:02:31) conversations I had where with him that I would hear a click on the other line. (2:02:36) And it's like we knew what that meant. And it's just like it was just it's torture.I mean, (2:02:41) often on 10 years, FBI secretly investigating him to raids at his house and they won't find (2:02:48) one single shred of evidence. I mean, at some point, facts do matter in that. (2:02:53) Yeah.That's what I heard. I heard something about that. Facts being a good thing.(2:02:58) So, you know, the description didn't match, you know, which they will lie and Maureen Orff will (2:03:05) said in her vanity fair thing that this description is matched. They did not match (2:03:09) because if they matched, Michael Jackson would have been sent to jail right away. That would (2:03:13) have been enough proof in 93 to, you know, to get to put him in jail.Well, just on it on (2:03:19) his head. Right. Wasn't one.They said he was circumcised and he's not correct or just that (2:03:26) alone regarding the vitiligo stuff, not even talking about the skin coloration or anything. (2:03:31) That's a very different look. Oh, we as guys, we know that look is different, (2:03:36) you know, and that's the thing.And and and that that and I say that, you know, his death (2:03:43) vindicate him of a lot of things. Vitiligo being one being uncircumcised, being another, (2:03:49) you know, because a lot of stuff was because he didn't talk about it and say I'm uncircumcised. (2:03:55) A lot of that was like we knew it, but we you know, I always know about his vitiligo.I saw (2:04:00) it all the time, but the public didn't know. But it wasn't a public record in that. And so, (2:04:06) you know, his death vindicated him of a lot of stuff in terms of, you know, the inaccurate (2:04:12) descriptions.One other thing I wanted to tie in again, as far as why the perception is that he's (2:04:21) guilty by the majority of public. I'm hoping that's shifting sooner than later versus what (2:04:27) the criminal case found is again, criminally nothing. There's nothing there.However, (2:04:35) Tom Sneddon was like in cahoots. If there was one press conference he gave and had asked a question, (2:04:43) he's like, oh, I don't know. Just ask Diane referring to Diane Diamond.So he was in cahoots (2:04:49) with the media. So that kind of does go ahead. No, Rob Zonin, who was one of the head prosecutors, (2:04:56) he was going out to dinner with the media and Stacey Brown.And it's like, so it's like they (2:05:04) were using the media to their advantage in that way. And it was just, yeah, I mean, we saw it (2:05:08) clear as day, but a lot of the public doesn't. So it was like a gang up.It was almost like, (2:05:13) you know, an assassination attempt on his legacy, which in part of the way they succeeded because (2:05:19) they wounded him enough that he never fully recovered. And on that note, I was listening, (2:05:26) it was in a podcast, Telephone Stories, where there was a journalist that was saying that (2:05:32) he thinks that the prosecution won. And did they win in the criminal sense? No, but they got rid (2:05:39) of the problem because he left.I thought that was the most cold thing I've ever heard in my life. (2:05:44) But if that's what they wanted, that's, that's what the journalist was saying that that's what (2:05:50) the prosecution wanted. They wanted him to go.Yeah. (2:05:52) This sounds like a, just a total team up. I mean, how do you win against that? (2:05:58) Well, that's the thing.And I think that's the hard thing that my uncle had to deal with is that, (2:06:04) you know, my uncle knowing that what 93 did to him in terms of the settlement and knowing, (2:06:10) okay, this time I'm going to fight it. You know, they made it sound like he could, he was like, (2:06:15) the way the media made it sound in the 2005 trial was he was going to flee. He's going to flee the (2:06:22) country.He's going to flee. My uncle flew in to get arrested, basically, you know, to go through (2:06:29) the court system and Santa Barbara, no, Santa Ynez, the court it's, it's a very conservative (2:06:38) town in a way, you know, and I think there was only one black juror as an alternate that was on, (2:06:46) it was, you know, so it was predominantly white. So.(2:06:49) And that doesn't sound like a jury of your peers, does it? (2:06:51) No, it doesn't. And I think, and that's, what's so amazing about it is that he, you know, it was (2:06:56) almost like he won in the worst scenario you could possibly win. And it's like, no, we're not (2:07:01) going to win, you know, and have questions of like, oh no, this juror voted for, or, you know, (2:07:06) voted for acquittal because they're black or this or that.It's like, no, you know, I'm going to win (2:07:11) the right way. And, and they did. And, you know, the reason that Tom Mesereau at one point was even (2:07:18) contemplating not even doing a defense was because the prosecution did such a horrible job because (2:07:24) they didn't have anything to work with.There was nothing, you know, they had, you know, they had (2:07:28) scam artists as the accusers that were known scam artists to people like Jay Leno, who took, who (2:07:36) kept his distance away from them because he didn't trust them to, you know, to Chris Tucker, (2:07:41) same thing. So it's like, but for some reason, you know, when it comes to Michael Jackson, (2:07:46) the bar is so much lower. And that's what we're realizing with James and Wade is that it doesn't (2:07:51) matter if they've lied 3000 times, you know, they're, people are going to do mental gymnastics (2:07:57) to protect them.Yeah. And I found that interesting, the Chris Tucker thing. He was (2:08:01) always talking about how generous Michael was.Oh, and I didn't know about that relationship (2:08:05) until square one, that kind of shone a light on that as well. Michael was the type of person that (2:08:10) would go, would be driving and he would see someone like a homeless person and he would just (2:08:14) grab a wad of bills and give it to them. You know, that, and not even ask for anything, (2:08:20) like not just, just miraculously and then drive off.That's how he was. It was not, (2:08:27) there's so much goals and so much that I want to be like him in terms of because he was just, (2:08:33) and it sounds like I'm just a fluff piece, but he was really that amazing that anyone that he knew (2:08:39) will tell you the same thing. Like, you know, he just, he was that person.It wasn't like an act. (2:08:44) It wasn't like he got in the car and he's like, Oh, geez, you know, he was that person. And that's, (2:08:50) and you become a target sometimes when you're that person, because, you know, you're a good person (2:08:56) in a bad world.And sometimes people look at you through bad lenses and they can't see the goodness. (2:09:03) Yeah. Or they, they assume ulterior motives for the goodness, right? To hide the bad, right? (2:09:08) How can someone give something to someone without wanting something back? (2:09:12) Right.How dare they? (2:09:14) There has to be something that you mean that he just bought this kid a car, (2:09:18) you know, Ryan White, a car and didn't want anything else. (2:09:20) You know, how dare humanity? How, how dare you? (2:09:24) Yeah. So, so you've got this project Taj and do you have a couple episodes already (2:09:29) recorded or do you have it already lined up with everything? Or are you still in the works? (2:09:33) Well, the, to be completely, completely honest and Frank, the, the coronavirus thing really kind of (2:09:41) hurt it because I don't want to do Skype interviews.I don't want to do (2:09:44) zoom interviews. I wanted to be, I would agree with you in person. (2:09:48) Exactly.And, and one of the other things is that when I started this project, (2:09:55) leaving Neverland was still fresh and a lot of people that I would have approached probably (2:10:00) would have been scared to touch it because it was so new. And it was almost like everyone that (2:10:07) was standing up for Michael was getting slammed, you know, in a way like how dare you, you're a (2:10:12) sympathizer towards this, blah, blah, blah. And so now the tide is starting to change with things (2:10:16) like square one and just people realizing the truth and all that stuff.So it's a different (2:10:22) environment now to approach certain people. So there's a lot of people that are now have come (2:10:26) to me saying, I want to be part of this. There was a lot of people ahead of time that did that.(2:10:31) Anyway, a lot of people that I didn't expect to do that. But now I even have more support (2:10:36) and I kind of, I'm actually really excited because at the end of the day, it's going, (2:10:43) you know, I expect probably about 80 interviews and, you know, which is completely different than, (2:10:52) you know, leaving Neverland that just had two families, you know, and because I feel like (2:10:58) you really need to get to know who Michael Jackson truly was from all different walks of life, (2:11:03) from the people that worked for him, the people that even the people that he fired. There's this (2:11:09) one lady that I am, you know, that will, wants to be interviewed that he fired for.And I won't (2:11:17) say the reason why he fired her, but he fired her, but she's, we're not going to dox her Taj, (2:11:22) don't worry, but I'd love to hear this story. So there's a woman that he fired and he fired (2:11:26) that I loved at Neverland, like literally love, like she was like everything in terms of to me, (2:11:30) and, but she, and she ended up testifying in 2005 for him as well in that way, because, (2:11:39) you know, it just, she, if you know, Michael Jackson, you know, Michael Jackson, and if you (2:11:47) care anything about justice and hate injustice, you know, you'll speak out and that's what we've (2:11:52) seen with it. I mean, they even try to twist, you know, Marlon Brando into saying that Marlon Brando, (2:11:59) you know, there's some stupid story about Marlon Brando until Miko Brando had to go (2:12:03) out of, you know, like, you know, out of, I don't want to say hiding.He just was not (2:12:06) publicly in the public. And he's like, that story is so false, blah, blah, blah. And, and I knew it (2:12:12) was false anyway, because I knew how much my uncle and Marlon Brando were friends in that way.You (2:12:19) know, when Marlon Brando was sick, he stayed at Neverland. And, and a lot of people don't know (2:12:25) that, but it's just like, that's the kind of thing, like, my uncle cared about people. And (2:12:29) the only thing that really frustrates me about all this is that I wish that during his trial, (2:12:36) yes, there were the Brandos and the Elizabeth Taylors, but for all that he had done for people, (2:12:41) like certain, certain people, he did not get the same support back for what he had done for them (2:12:46) in that way.And that was because certain agents or publicists told their clients to stay away (2:12:53) from him in that way. And that hurt him more than anything. We talk about the media hurting him in (2:12:59) terms of for the trial, but imagine if your friends stopped talking to you or your friends, you know, (2:13:04) won't return your phone calls.Yeah. It's a, it's fickle when you think it's, when it's true, (2:13:09) when you've made a true reach to make a friendship or you, and to them, it wasn't the same depth that (2:13:16) you offered them. Exactly.And so it's kind of funny where we're actually laughing here because, (2:13:21) and we, we did decide to do a video just in case we, you know, we wanted to make sure we got this (2:13:26) recorded. I have a painting of Marlon Brando in my office next to Muhammad Ali. So they're both on (2:13:32) the video.So when you mentioned Brando, Chris just tapped me on the shoulder. He just pointed (2:13:36) over our heads. Cause he's looking over us.He's watching over us right now. I love it. (2:13:40) And I think that's the thing.I mean, you know, it's funny, the old, old Hollywood, (2:13:45) like the Gregory Packs and the Marlon Brandos and the Elizabeth Taylors, (2:13:48) you know, they understood my uncle, they knew his heart. They were super friends with him (2:13:53) in that way. It was, it was the younger Hollywood that, you know, was so worried about their career (2:13:58) and their, I mean, we see it today, you know, it's, it's kind of like no one will take a stand (2:14:03) against anything, you know, cause they're so scared of what, you know, what it's going to (2:14:07) do for their career.So they have no backbone about it. Yeah. Well, the cancel culture is (2:14:12) just running rampant right now.It's beyond rampant. It's, it's almost like you put a target (2:14:16) on your back willingly. If you say, yeah, I mean, we started our podcast and we actually have two (2:14:21) very different podcast themes.For example, one's just a screw around, right. It's called beer (2:14:27) Googles and we get drunk and look up random shit on the internet. So that one, we make really bad, (2:14:34) dirty jokes.Like we're shameless, but it's the intense humor. It's not to hurt anyone, (2:14:39) but we know that coming back around, we're going to get called out on some stuff that we've said. (2:14:45) Exactly.Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's an interesting thing, but I just, you know, (2:14:50) I just wish more people did their research, you know, kind of went down that rabbit hole because (2:14:55) you know I, you know, my uncle was amazing, not only as a human being, but just as an artist. (2:15:03) And I want people to be able to appreciate his music.I think it's very unfair what the Simpsons (2:15:08) did, you know, with he's the only episode ever to be taken out of the Simpsons and he still is out (2:15:14) of the Simpsons. And I think that's really hypocritical. It's unbelievable.You know, (2:15:18) I mean, there's a lot of guests on the Simpsons that have had allegations that they've admitted (2:15:25) to and you know, with underage kids, you know, rock legends and stuff like that, that are on (2:15:34) the Simpsons. And I just, it, the hypocrisy bothers me more than anything, at least be consistent, (2:15:40) you know, like that, be consistent. Don't, don't pick and choose.Oh, we care about this person. (2:15:46) So we're going to keep this episode in, but this person, you know, we're going to go with the flow. (2:15:51) Yeah.I mean, it definitely sounds like the cards are stacked against your favorite, (2:15:56) regardless of his guilt or innocence, regardless of that. They're, they're definitely leaning on, (2:16:01) on him. Well, the media, because the media is such a big mouthpiece, but they're getting, (2:16:07) I think every, you know, year it's less and less because people are finding their news other ways.(2:16:13) They're finding the truth other ways. And so what the media used to be, they used to be the (2:16:18) one-all be-all, but now they're not because other people are getting information and they're (2:16:22) setting up podcasts or channels and they're delivering it, you know, other ways. And I mean, (2:16:28) that's how square one happened was, you know, Danny decided, you know, someone that was like, (2:16:34) yeah, I like Michael, but you know, I, you know, I want to talk to his nephew and his niece about it.(2:16:40) And, you know, and that interview went so well that he's, he went down that rabbit hole with (2:16:45) his team and, and, you know, I didn't know where that was going to go. I, when I did the first (2:16:50) interview, I just was taking any interview that would take, take us at that time. (2:16:55) Absolutely.Yeah. I mean, that's what it, that's what it speaks to is I, I can just tell from the (2:17:01) buzz that's on Twitter and in social media, how much, how much this is growing. And I, obviously (2:17:09) I'm not telling you what to do, but I, it's my opinion that the mainstream media, put your, (2:17:15) put your uncle in this position, screw them.Yeah. Do every podcast interview, screw them. You will (2:17:20) get, you will get the exposure you need, but you do not need them anymore.And they're, they're (2:17:26) scared. They are scared. And I've realized that I don't need them anymore.And, and there's certain (2:17:30) people that have come to me in terms of like, you know, like, Oh, I know someone in Canada that, (2:17:36) you know, the, the blah, blah, blah times. And, you know, this in this city, they have, you know, (2:17:43) a newspaper and I, and I know them very well and we can do a piece and all that stuff. And then (2:17:47) they come back, I'm sorry.They don't want to run a pro Michael piece. And I'm like, so they get (2:17:53) their hopes up high. And then I'm like, but I already know the answer.You know, I'm already (2:17:58) thinking like, okay, we'll see if that flies. And so I'm not disappointed, you know, but they are, (2:18:03) because they thought, Oh, well we have all this evidence and why wouldn't they want to talk to (2:18:07) you? But you'd be surprised. I mean, look at good morning America.Yeah. It seems like the, the media, (2:18:15) if I try to look at this from an objective or strategic viewpoint from the 50,000 foot level, (2:18:21) which I hate that expression, um, the media plays on the masses and the masses love when (2:18:29) the mighty fall like, like I'm a golf person and, but I'm not a tiger woods fan because I didn't, (2:18:38) I didn't get into golf until about five or six years ago. And I love golf, but I'm a horrible (2:18:42) golfer, but I still like it.And that, which is really stupid and illogical. So, but everyone (2:18:47) loves tiger woods because he was amazing. And then he fell off the radar because a bunch of chicks (2:18:54) fell out of a tree.Um, and now they love him again, but I still remember on Thanksgiving (2:18:59) night when his ex wife took a nine iron to his escalator, but I'm the only one that remembers (2:19:05) that. So that's, and then of course everybody went crazy with OJ. So it seemed my point to this (2:19:12) rambling is, um, the media caters to the masses who love that.But to your point, Taj, they don't (2:19:20) think about the fact that this hurts people personally, like personally hurts you and your (2:19:29) emotional wellbeing and your family and everyone around you because they want money because they (2:19:38) want ratings to get money is basically what they're doing. And that's, that's freaking shameful. (2:19:43) Yeah.That they're using our family for ratings and stuff like that. And, and, you know, part of (2:19:48) that, we know that, like, that's why we know we're going on. And I mean, there were certain channels (2:19:53) that we'd go on and they didn't want Brandy because she's not a name.They wanted, you know, (2:19:58) my uncle Marlon because he's part of the, it's like, but Brandy dated Wade. It's like, oh no, (2:20:02) no, we want Marlon because he's the name, you know, and all that stuff. And so that's how the (2:20:06) game is played in that way.And then certain people in the media particularly didn't want (2:20:11) Brandy because they didn't want that to destroy the narrative. And, um, so it's just like, (2:20:16) it's frustrating when, you know, you have a piece of the puzzle that it's like, (2:20:21) is a counter. And, and I say that only because I've seen the media plenty of times, but, oh, (2:20:25) well, here's the ex of so-and-so or here's the girlfriend of so-and-so they do that all the (2:20:30) time of like wanting to get that person on.But somehow when it comes to our family and it's like, (2:20:34) she can provide a different viewpoint, you know, it's like, oh no, no, we don't want her, (2:20:39) you know, cause she's pro Michael. Right. Shameful again.I mean, it's, we grew up, (2:20:48) honestly, we grew up with it. I mean, you know, even with my career as 3T, I mean, the first (2:20:54) reviews of our album, you know, before we hit were horrible. And when I say horrible, like, (2:21:00) you know, what a disgrace to this family, dah, dah, dah, dah.I mean, they'd said everything (2:21:04) they could gave us the worst reviews, but then we hit like, you know, the top of the charts. (2:21:10) And all of a sudden now the same album that they dogged, it's now every single is an A, (2:21:17) you know, when they gave our album an F and it's like, you know, because now they need us and now (2:21:21) they want, you know, want us to be friends with them in that way. And I've seen, it's just (2:21:26) hypocrisy, but I've seen that that's how it works.And, and I'm not only talking about Hollywood, (2:21:31) I'm talking about, you know, this happened in the UK as well. (2:21:36) Yeah. Well we talk, I mean, let's look at BAFTA, right? Jess, you want to talk about BAFTA and (2:21:39) what happened there? And then we can shit on that for a bit before we move on.(2:21:43) Oh yeah. I thought it was like hilarious. I was like, are they trolling leaving Neverland? (2:21:48) Because the award, it wasn't best documentary.It was like most factual documentary. It kind (2:21:53) of reminds me of like when Trump goes on his rambles, it's like, it was the greatest, (2:21:57) most factual documentary that's ever existed. You know, just ramble.(2:22:01) That was the best Trump impression I've ever heard in my entire life. Hold on, (2:22:05) hold on. We have, we have something for that.(2:22:07) Oh my God. Wait for it. Wait for it.Wait for it. (2:22:13) That was the best Trump impression I have ever heard. And why didn't we start the show with that? (2:22:20) You have orange makeup on and an amazing wig, right? (2:22:23) For sure.Sure. (2:22:24) I didn't have talent, Jess. (2:22:27) That was amazing.So please continue. But can you, can you share what happened at BAFTA before I just (2:22:32) jump it? Cause I don't even think Chris knows what I'm talking about right now. (2:22:35) I don't.(2:22:36) Won the most factual documentary. (2:22:38) I knew that part. (2:22:40) I think that's it.I don't get why people get so upset. (2:22:43) Yeah. Leaving Neverland won the most factual series or something, right? Most factual documentary.(2:22:50) Yeah. I was like, are they trolling? And that was two weeks ago. (2:22:53) Jokes, literally, especially with all the, with the secretive editing that Dan Reed did basically (2:23:02) as we were, you know, discovering all the lies, he was taking it out for the UK version.So it's (2:23:08) just like, it's so dishonest in a way, but at the same time, I know the game. I've grew up in the (2:23:17) game. I would grow.I grew up watching the Grammys and the American music awards and like, Hey, (2:23:23) Michael, can you show up to this? We'll give you this award. If you, if you show up because of the (2:23:27) ratings and this and that. So it's always been a game.It's always been rigged in that way. (2:23:32) You know? And it just, it, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it, it shows you that they're (2:23:38) trying to push an agenda just like the Emmys did, you know, because they, HBO was a huge sponsor of (2:23:43) the Emmys and you know, the Emmys, one of the things that was very dishonest was the Rotten (2:23:49) Tomatoes review. You know, it had a great score with the critics, but they wouldn't allow the (2:23:54) audience score to people to put reviews in the audience score.And so and, and I called them (2:24:02) out on it because someone brought that to my attention and they only released the audience (2:24:07) scores. Once all the, basically the voting was over for the Emmys. So if you were an Emmy voter (2:24:15) and you didn't even see leaving Neverland, if you went to Rotten Tomatoes to see how it was, (2:24:20) you would see like a 98% and go, Oh, okay, well, this is a good, this must be a good documentary.(2:24:25) But right now, if you go on Rotten Tomatoes, you'll see 98% and you'll see audience score, (2:24:31) you know, I think it's like, it's like 14%. (2:24:33) 24. (2:24:35) We can probably pull it up right now.(2:24:36) Yeah. (2:24:37) We've got this interwebs thing I heard about. But what's really interesting about that too, (2:24:42) Taj, to point that out, it was very similar.If you're familiar with Dave Chappelle, (2:24:46) it's his last special. He got like 15% or something or zero. And then they did the (2:24:52) audience.It was 99%. It was the exact flip of that. And that told me everything I needed to (2:24:58) know is that when the media has an agenda, they will, they will get on point and they will, (2:25:04) they will sell it and they will not break rank, you know, but the audience really dictates.(2:25:10) And that's why I think the threat of them not letting the audience score go until the votes (2:25:15) were cast, because they knew once the vote that that would manipulate people in terms of like, (2:25:20) actually trying to look at it from a different point of view. And I just think that was just so (2:25:25) dishonest. And why I say that is because Rotten Tomatoes is related to HBO with Warner Media.(2:25:33) You know, Warner Media owns a part of Rotten Tomatoes. So it's all, you know, it's not just (2:25:38) random. It's something that's like, hey, you know, it's just, if you follow the trails, (2:25:44) like you guys said that you do all the time, you see it clear as day in terms of how they're (2:25:50) manipulating this or that.And it's frustrating, but you know, more and more people are waking (2:25:56) up to it. More and more people see it and more people see the scam and they're not being sold (2:26:01) on it anymore. I think that just goes to show with everything.I mean, with music, movies, (2:26:08) TV, every entertainment type is being, and this I sound like a total idiot. It's being (2:26:16) controlled from above and by who I have no idea. And it's just, it's disturbing.And I know that (2:26:26) has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but it's a, it's a really, I feel very uncomfortable (2:26:37) with that concept because I, before we started today, I, you know, I've been doing some research, (2:26:42) et cetera, and I looked up who owns HBO. And then you just said it 16 seconds ago, like Warner, (2:26:48) but I didn't know they had a connection with Rotten Tomatoes and HBO. I had no idea about that.(2:26:53) Like, oh my God, my eyeballs just popped out of my head. Like, oh my God, of course they're (2:26:57) connected. Why wouldn't they be like, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's like, it's, it's, it's like those (2:27:05) up on top, they're controlling the food that we eat.And so by controlling the food that we eat, (2:27:11) they control our health in that way. And that's the thing that our mind is our health. And so (2:27:16) they're controlling how we think and, you know, they're dictating.It's like, oh, you're going (2:27:20) to get this and you're going to get that. We're giving you this now, and you're not going to see (2:27:24) this. And, and it's unfortunate.And I really, you know, Hollywood has a bad problem with pedophilia, (2:27:32) you know, in that way. And it's amazing that it's still not as, like, you would think that the (2:27:38) media would be all on it and would be, you know, really adamant because these are children, (2:27:44) you know, we're talking about. This would be something that everyone should be in agreement (2:27:49) with, you know, but, uh, can we see Dan Schneider and, uh, what, uh, what's the other guy, the kid, (2:27:57) Drake Bell, right? Dan Schneider, Drake Bell, Drake Bell's Dan Schneider's protege.(2:28:03) Dan Schneider was on that head of the class show as Dennis, whatever the chubby dude, (2:28:08) he's a producer, right? And now all these allegations are coming out of what he's done, (2:28:12) or at least the allegations of what have happened, right? Yeah. Mark and Chris, (2:28:16) what have you heard at all about Corey Feldman's documentary that came out months ago? (2:28:22) I didn't know there was one. See, exactly.And I didn't, I didn't know there was an Epstein one (2:28:26) either. I didn't know that there was one. Wow.But I also, I'm the kind of person that I, you know, (2:28:32) like, I don't watch the news. I don't like, I don't have cable TV. So I just, I don't get on (2:28:39) the internet except like to check the Dodger score.So, you know, I don't, I don't say, (2:28:46) I don't think my head's in the sand, but I don't, I stay away from mainstream media because it's (2:28:52) just crap. It's leaving Neverland though. Yeah.Cause I have HBO. I had HBO. Oh, they plugged (2:28:59) that.No, I will say I got sucked into that. I'm happy to do it. Yeah.And it was out for a while (2:29:05) before I finally was like, all right, I'll fricking watch it. I didn't, maybe Mark told me to watch (2:29:10) it. I don't remember.It's probably Mark's fault. They'll just believe me. Hashtag Mark's fault.(2:29:16) So, well, you, you guys, you guys listened to that reaction that I had from it. Yeah. I'm not going (2:29:21) to lie that I was so disgusted after hearing it.So real quick, I'm going to say it. I said it for (2:29:27) the first time in like three podcasts. I said real quick.Yes. Okay. Uh, I pulled up the rotten (2:29:33) tomato score.So the audience me, I'm sorry, let me do the critic or the tomato meter for leaving (2:29:39) Neverland is 98% and the audience score is 24%. Yeah. Meanwhile, I jump on square one.There is (2:29:49) no tomato meter available. Oh, what a shock. Wow.Yet, yet the audience score is 97%. Yep. (2:29:56) So there you go.There's one tomato reviewer. Yeah. Oh, is there film threat film threat? Yeah.(2:30:04) Okay. Yeah. So I'm just saying, it says tomato meter not available on my website.(2:30:08) Because there's not sufficient enough amounts, but yeah. And shout out to film threat for, (2:30:14) or they're hiding it. Yeah.That's very true. We're suppressing it. Look, we get shadow banned (2:30:19) too.I mean, the shadow banning is a real thing. It's it's, you know, the, but that should tell (2:30:23) people something, you know, it's like one of those things, it's like, they don't want you to know (2:30:27) certain, you know, other side of something in that way. And if, if they were truly honest, (2:30:32) they'd be like, okay, we'll see both sides and then make your decision.But they don't want that (2:30:36) in that way. And I, you know, I've had to see, you know, you know, all these movies, (2:30:43) disgusting movies, you know, the Epstein one. And I said, the Olympic one with Olympic gymnastic, (2:30:50) you know, athlete a with Larry Nassar.Yep. Yeah. That one I've seen open, (2:30:57) open, an open secret.I've seen Corey Feldman's, you know, documentary, my truth. (2:31:01) Can you, can you talk about that one? Corey Feldman, obviously I hadn't heard of it. So (2:31:06) please advertise it, propose, you know, share it with our audience.We'd love to hear these (2:31:10) places to go or these documentaries to watch. Sure. He's basically explained about him and (2:31:15) Corey Haim.And you know, how there's Hollywood has a big problem with pedophilia and how he (2:31:23) wasn't protected in Hollywood at all. And a lot of people know this and know about the, you know, (2:31:29) what's going on, but is hiding it. And what's the name of it again? I think it's called my (2:31:35) truth.My truth. And where can we find it? He's still my truth doc.com. Yeah. Okay.My truth.com. (2:31:44) We'll, we'll, we'll post a link to it as well. And if there's any links you guys want us to put, (2:31:49) we'll put them on the show notes as well. And I think that's amazing because, you know, (2:31:53) people have accused Corey of wanting fame and fortune and all that stuff.And he's been (2:31:58) consistent since I, as I said before, 93, you know, when he told the cops, you know, (2:32:04) who had done this to him and, and everything like that. And they didn't even go after the people (2:32:09) that, cause they were so, you know, driven on Michael that they basically like, okay, okay. (2:32:13) Well, if it's not Michael Jackson, we're not interested.And, and but why say that is because (2:32:20) the easiest thing for Corey Feldman to do, if he really cared about fame and fortune was been like, (2:32:25) Michael touched me too. That's all he would have to say. And he would be, you know, (2:32:30) back in the spotlight and given all this, everything, you know, and, and sell his story (2:32:36) and blah, blah, blah.But that's why I, you know, I've always given Corey Feldman, you know, (2:32:42) a lot of credit because he's easily had that opportunity plenty of times. People have even (2:32:48) implied that to him anyways. And he's been consistent, consistent for the last, you know, (2:32:57) 17, 20, I don't know.My math is off, but yeah, since 93, you know, that's what I get for trying (2:33:03) to do math, you know, in my head while I'm talking. But yeah, I think that's the thing (2:33:08) that I would say is that, you know, the easiest thing right now to do, which is, you know, would (2:33:12) be for other people to pile on. That's what they're expecting with this Michael Jackson.(2:33:16) And that's what Wade and James expected. They were hoping that more people would just, (2:33:20) you know, loosen their morals and being like, you know, okay, I'm going to get onto this money (2:33:26) train now too. But they underestimated that, you know, not everyone is like them.Not everyone (2:33:32) is that shallow and in that way. And it's actually backfired because everyone they've approached (2:33:39) has basically given them the middle finger and said, go away. You know, Michael's not like that.(2:33:45) Yeah. I mean, wasn't there supposed to be like dozens of victims that were (2:33:49) going to come forward after leaving Neverland? Where is one? (2:33:52) Well, that's what their lawyer said, you know, in Radar Online too. He said there were, you know, (2:33:58) there's 20 something victims and he paid $200 million, you know, which is a fabrication, (2:34:07) but it went everywhere, you know, because they don't have to prove anything.But it's like, (2:34:11) you know, then at the end of the day, it's like, okay, well, I'm waiting, you know, and that's- (2:34:16) And where's the one? (2:34:17) Well, this is the thing. I think they were waiting for the BAFTA award for most (2:34:20) factual documentary series before they move forward with their other cases. (2:34:26) I mean, come on.This is like such a joke. I'm just sitting here laughing. I mean, (2:34:30) this is laughable right now.(2:34:31) Well, one thing their lawyer had was, I don't even think people remember this. (2:34:36) There was a Jane Doe attached to Wade and James. (2:34:39) Oh, that's right.(2:34:39) You know, and once Leaving Neverland, you know, was announced, she disappeared (2:34:44) because she didn't fit the narrative. So- (2:34:48) Wow, that's unbelievable. (2:34:48) She's not even mentioned in Leaving Neverland.(2:34:50) No, she's not even mentioned. So there was a female, but because it doesn't fit their (2:34:53) narrative in Leaving Neverland, she just disappeared. So I find that truly amazing.(2:34:59) And, you know, it's like- (2:35:00) Well, that's the crazy thing, right? It's like, (2:35:02) it's funny because documentaries now have an agenda going in. (2:35:06) Oh, yeah. (2:35:06) And it's like, that's not- (2:35:07) All of them do.They even share windows. (2:35:08) Well, they do, right? Because it's really, ultimately, the evidence supports the claim (2:35:14) that he's innocent, right? That's where Square One's agenda is. But, you know, it would be nice (2:35:19) for just to say, I have a topic I want to look at.Let me just gather all the information, (2:35:25) throw it together, and then like not come up with a conclusion. (2:35:28) And let you make the conclusion. (2:35:29) Wouldn't that be nice? (2:35:31) I think Danny did a really good job in that way because- (2:35:35) I think he did.(2:35:36) ...ends with Stephanie saying he was a pedophile, where Leaving Neverland, (2:35:41) it gives the Chandlers the last word, you know? And he never says, therefore, he's innocent. (2:35:47) It's up to the viewer to decide. And I love the way Danny did that.(2:35:50) Yeah. And on Danny's point, I mean, we have an open invitation for Danny if you guys ever (2:35:56) want to come on. And, you know, Taj, when you have your project or want to launch it again, (2:36:00) we'd love to have you back on to promote it however you'd like.Jess, you're more than (2:36:05) welcome at any time for any subject if there's something you want to talk about. (2:36:09) You know what? I think we're going to have to record some Trump impressions. (2:36:12) And we will use them.We'll put them on our little soundpad for sure. (2:36:16) And you were going to say something, Taj. I'm sorry.(2:36:18) No, no, no. I was going to say that's one of the reasons I call it my project as opposed (2:36:21) to a documentary is because I do believe like in today's world, documentaries are biased. (2:36:27) And especially coming from a family member, of course, it's going to be called biased.(2:36:31) And so I'm not even going to, you know, I'm not even going to pretend to be, (2:36:34) you know, oh, I mean, I get both sides. I'm just going to present the facts. I'm (2:36:38) going to present the story.And but I know it's going to be called biased anyway. So that's why (2:36:43) I've stayed away from the word documentary because I'm still old school. I think documentary should (2:36:48) be, you know, kind of like here's the it's presented to you and then you kind of come (2:36:53) up with your own conclusion.And so that's not how it works now. So I don't feel comfortable (2:36:58) calling it a documentary. So that's why I call it a project.And I think that's a great. (2:37:02) Oh, go ahead, Jess. You get kind of stuck being labeled as pro Michael Jackson because (2:37:08) the truth is pro Michael Jackson.So you can't just say, oh, it's factual. But I mean, (2:37:14) that's just how it is. Like the truth is on his side.It's pro. So I'm sorry, (2:37:18) but that's just how it is. The evidence and the facts are.Right. And that's the thing in, (2:37:23) um, you know, the the slogan facts don't lie. People do.That was something that was, you know, (2:37:29) said in the press statement to the media that our family released. You know, one of the quotes that (2:37:36) I made and it's. Taken off, but it's been it's it actually is very relevant to, you know, the (2:37:46) in general.It's like there's, you know, for the amount of time Michael Jackson lived for someone (2:37:53) that was probably one of the most photographed and recorded people in history, one of the most (2:37:58) famous people in history. And, you know, in terms of staff and and people that work for him or (2:38:04) friends and all that stuff. And it's like there's not one shred of evidence, you know, an FBI FBI (2:38:11) on and off investigating for 10 years, you know, illegals.I'm not an illegal search, but (2:38:18) the surprise surprise search, you know, raids, I will call it in Neverland, taking his computers, (2:38:25) his six computers and not finding one shred of evidence. You know, it's like at some point you (2:38:31) have to go, OK, you know, at some point, you know, he's not a pedophile because, you know, (2:38:37) they've they've done this with Epstein. They've done this.Even the guy from Glee, (2:38:41) when they took his computer, he had to get all this child porn on it. It's like, (2:38:46) well, look at Jared from Subway. And and, you know, when the FBI zeros in on you, (2:38:52) they can find stuff really quickly, whether they do something or not with it is another thing, (2:38:57) but they find it very quickly.And they released all their paperwork on Michael Jackson. There's (2:39:01) no evidence. And and that's the thing.They're very efficient. And that bothers me because it (2:39:07) wasn't like my uncle knew they were investigating him. He had no clue.And so it's like they were (2:39:12) following his every move at times, trying to find something. And it's just like at some point (2:39:19) you have to go, OK, there's logic involved in this. Do I believe these two guys that, (2:39:24) you know, at one point said Michael was innocent? One of them wanted to get married at Neverland, (2:39:30) you know, with his his fiancee during the trial in 2005, you know, and, you know, the place that (2:39:36) he supposedly got abused hundreds of times.Right. You know, yeah, because that's going to (2:39:40) erase that memory. It's not going to imprint it more, you know, and is doing tribute shows for (2:39:46) him.And and the other guy, he also did something at Neverland. He did I think it was a video or (2:39:53) something. He went back to Neverland and did a video this pre leaving Neverland.So he revisited (2:39:58) Neverland. Then he makes up a story about, you know, a train station that doesn't even exist for (2:40:03) years later. And he's rambling all these places like the movie theater and swimming pool.(2:40:09) I can tell you the jacuzzi in the swimming pool is was one of the most you could see that place (2:40:14) from 360 degrees. Anyone that walked around the Neverland could see it. And so there was no there (2:40:22) was nothing hidden.There's no secret. No. Like for the end.But but they rely on people's I (2:40:28) shouldn't say ignorance, but ignorance of Neverland. Like you wouldn't know that. Right.(2:40:32) They don't know the blueprint. You're thinking, Oh, well, that's a private jacuzzi. That has to (2:40:36) be our private pool.No, that was an open pool. And at the minimum, my uncle had at Neverland at (2:40:43) a time would probably be 30 people there. That was like, every once in a while I have to do this, (2:40:47) Taj, I have to do I go hello to the world.Do you realize that Neverland was more like a resort than (2:40:52) just a house? Yeah. They make it seem like he like he had the key to the gate. And it's like, (2:40:57) okay, let's go in and they're like, turn on the lights and all that stuff.No, there are people (2:41:01) always there. There are people that work there. My uncle hired former police officers to be a (2:41:07) security guard.You know, why would you do that? If you're a child molester? Like, yeah, I mean, (2:41:13) the whole thing, the more you pick at, I mean, the more we look at, obviously, there's just (2:41:18) inconsistency after inconsistency. I mean, we're we're almost three hours in. Are there any other (2:41:23) thoughts? Any anything else you got? Yeah, it's like a time warp in this place, guys.I'm looking (2:41:28) at 242. And I think I think square one was 89 minutes. So we're at 162 minutes.We're approaching (2:41:35) leaving. We're almost double. Yeah, like we're approaching leaving Neverland, which is totally (2:41:39) fine by me.I'm really enjoying the conversation. I you know, if there's anything more personal (2:41:43) about you guys, and obviously, I think we'll probably have a follow up at some point down (2:41:48) the road, maybe if we get Danny on and all, you know, the four of us or five of us get on. (2:41:52) But are there any other final thoughts that you have Taj or anything else you want to share? (2:41:56) No, as I said before, I just really appreciate the opportunity.You know, I can ramble a lot, (2:42:02) I get excited because, you know, every opportunity is a chance for at least me to, (2:42:07) you know, share who my uncle truly was. And, you know, let the viewers at least make that educated, (2:42:14) like, hey, let's go down this rabbit hole. Let's learn more about them.That's all I ask. I don't (2:42:18) ask for anything else. But, you know, just be fair, like you've heard one side, now here the other and (2:42:23) square one's a great way of getting to that point.(2:42:27) Yeah, that's a really good point. And if I may kind of jump on that back real quick is I remember (2:42:33) Amy Winehouse and how she was portrayed in her last year or two of her life. She was this drunk (2:42:39) diva that didn't care and didn't want to do anything.And then I watched the Amy documentary. (2:42:45) And it and once again, it it gave me another angle. It you know, obviously, you've got three (2:42:50) sides to every story, got your side, their side and the truth, right? But it does shine another (2:42:55) light onto the, the struggle and that just the pain.And I stir and that way and you then there's (2:43:02) one effective thing in that where I saw like, there's a bunch of comedians making jokes about (2:43:07) her at her worst time. Yeah, and they and they were the one like Jay Leno made a joke about her (2:43:11) a week after she was on his show doing her song that they made her do rehab over and over and over (2:43:17) and she was a struggling artist. I mean, she was troubled and they just piled on.So I can't even (2:43:22) imagine the target that Michael had on his back. Yeah. And you know, being the king of pop.Yeah. (2:43:30) So are there any other final thoughts or things before we call it a day? Once again, open (2:43:34) invitation. If you guys have something you want to share, feel free to reach out to us.You can (2:43:39) email us directly and we'll, we'll definitely talk with you some more. No, just as I said, (2:43:43) I'm just super appreciative and, you know, for, and for to your audience, you know, thank you for (2:43:48) listening to me. I ramble, but at the same time, you know, I'm extremely passionate about this and (2:43:56) you can find out all this information online and it's not something that we're making conclusions (2:44:02) to or jumping, jumping to conclusions to this stuff that you can find court documents or, you (2:44:08) know, things that are definitely facts and that as opposed to just like hypotheticals.(2:44:14) That's awesome. How about you, Jess? Do you have any final thoughts or anything? (2:44:21) Um, I would say, well, since this is going to air on the 28th, um, happy early birthday to Michael (2:44:27) Jackson. He would have been 62, I believe.Yes. 58. He was born and happy belated birthday to Taj.(2:44:35) You were August 4th, Taj? Yes, I was. No, yes, I am. Happy birthday.Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.(2:44:41) I actually had to look to see how old I was. Cause I, I honestly, after like a certain age, (2:44:46) after I think 27, I stopped counting. So I think I stopped after like 10.Yeah. Just make it easy. (2:44:52) Yeah.And Jess, anything else? Did you have anything else you want to? I did have one last (2:44:57) question for Taj was kind of, it's kind of out of the blue, but are you cool if I just go with it? (2:45:02) Yeah. That was it? That was it. That's a great question.I mean, I'll tell you really quick (2:45:17) about the song is, you know, that was a song that was supposed to be on his album and he had too (2:45:23) many songs. And so we got that song just out of, um, he just gave it to us, but it was only, (2:45:29) he only had his backgrounds on it and whatever. And, you know, we've never asked him to do a (2:45:34) song with us.We've never asked him to do a duet with us. It's he's, he just gave it to us. And (2:45:39) it was one of the greatest gifts that we could have, you know, I mean, who wouldn't want Michael (2:45:43) Jackson on their album? Right.You know? Uh, yeah. So that was Jess's little fun thing. She (2:45:49) wanted to just kind of throw a ball at you.You know how long it took me to learn those lyrics, (2:45:54) by the way? I mean, cause it's, those lyrics are very tricky and I still have to copy. (2:45:59) Yeah. The tempo was off because we were going to do the whole four part of that.And I just (2:46:03) told her, let's just do the first line. Cause there's no way I was able to, I was able to (2:46:14) record it. So, Hey, so guys, please stay on.Uh, cause what we're gonna do is we're going to shoot (2:46:19) the outro music and then, but stay on so we can just talk after once again, thank you so much for (2:46:25) this special episode of square one documentary insight with Taj Jackson and Jess Garcia. (2:46:32) Thank you guys very much. Really.I really appreciate your time. Thank you. Thank you (2:46:36) guys.Thank you guys. We're so grateful and we're just going to cut it out and we'll catch you guys (2:46:41) later.