Transcript of my conversation with Rita Puls 5/30/2021
Speaker 1: Rita Puls
Speaker 2: Mark Puls
[Speaker 2]
Hey everybody and welcome to another edition of Knocked Conscious. It's Mark here and I am very excited about this episode because I have my madre here, my mother, my biological mother, and she has an amazing story. And I'll share a little background for you but then we'll hand it off to her to tell us this amazing story.
But basically, I don't know if everybody knows this, but I am a first-generation American. My parents are both born in Germany but met here and then had my brother and myself. So the story of how my mom came here is extremely fascinating.
The story of how my father came here is also fascinating but he probably has a harder time to express it than my mom. So mom, welcome. Thank you.
How are you doing? I'm great. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Tell us who you are, where you live, where you're from, a little background, and we'll start with probably right after and then we'll go forward from there.
[Speaker 1]
Okay. My name's Rita. I was born in 1944 in Germany, came to the US.
[Speaker 2]
Where in Germany?
[Speaker 1]
Where in Germany? In Saxony, which is very close to the Czech border. Erzgebirge is another, it's a smaller subsection of Saxony and which later became, after the war, was given to the Russians and became East Germany.
In 1955, well in 53, we escaped East Germany and went to West Germany and in 1955, we immigrated to the US and here I am.
[Speaker 2]
All right. So this is 53 when you left East Germany, technically escaped, because you were a citizen and they did not want their citizens to leave. The wall went out in 59?
60. 60. Okay.
So it was still many years prior to that where they basically all erected a piece to keep you in or out. Correct. Okay.
[Speaker 1]
There was a wall but it wasn't a physical wall.
[Speaker 2]
It was a minefield. I know there was a minefield, some barbed wire, and some other things. So there were open fields that were sectioned off.
Correct. So 1953, you were born in February, so probably, you're probably nine years old, right? Because it's later than February in the year.
Correct. So tell us a little bit about how you got from just, I mean, what happened, you were young, you're born in 44, the war technically ended 45, so you don't have much memory, I'm sure of that.
[Speaker 1]
No. Only from hearsay.
[Speaker 2]
Right. But I'm curious what your recollections are of you leaving East Germany, like what happened to around you in school? What happened, you know, socially with your father, with his family, his friends, and how he did this?
I'd love to hear this story because first of all, I want to document it because it's an amazing story. But secondly, it's just, it's impressive because I'm fortunate and blessed to have an idea of what a first generation American, like the blessing of that, of being here, and what you saw and what you're seeing now, that makes you uneasy from what you came from. So 1953 happens.
[Speaker 1]
Okay, so 1953, I was second grade, I guess. First grade, in school, they had an organization called the Young Pioneers. And they got to wear uniforms.
It was a cute little uniform, white blouse, and a blue scarf.
[Speaker 2]
Was it more like Brownies than Hitler Youth? Or was it more like?
[Speaker 1]
Well, I don't know about Hitler Youth since I wasn't, I didn't partake in that. I wasn't around. But it was a total communistic organization with the benefits of child activities.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So it was in inducting you into this through your activities, you're now being indoctrinated into this ideology, right? Just like anything else, just like you would for anything, just like going to church would indoctrinate you to the church, whatever the ideology of the time.
But this was based around the communistic ideology. Is that correct? Yep.
[Speaker 1]
And everyone in my class was a member, except for me. My dad wouldn't let me join. He was vehemently against it.
Always was a rebel. When the Nazis came around, he was a rebel. When communism came around, he was a rebel.
So he wouldn't let me join. I had a friend. We were like peas in a pod.
He was more like a brother to me than he was a friend. And he did join. And every day after school, my father had a barbershop.
He was self employed. And every day after school, we would come home and we would beg him, please let me go, please. And one day he came home and he had a bunch of pamphlets and he handed them to my father and said, look at this, look at this, look at this.
And my father took one look at it, took it, ripped it up and threw it in the fireplace and said, this is shite.
[Speaker 2]
We've said worse on the show. But in German it's scheisse, just so everyone knows.
[Speaker 1]
So we had a very young teacher at the time who was right out of school, also very politically communist.
[Speaker 2]
And very active, like young and energetic, right? That's a good way to get is that through that youth and through the education system, which we're actually seeing in current times.
[Speaker 1]
Right. Correct. So so he he went back to school and told the teacher what happened.
And the teacher reported my father. And my father got wind of it because we lived in a small town. He was the only barbershop.
So everybody in town was his customer.
[Speaker 2]
And in addition, if I may, I would assume that most of the adult parents at this time who were still alive had fought in the war, had some kind of connection to each other, just because they were they were brothers in arms. Right. So that when something happened, they were close enough to be able to share information.
Right. So your father got wind of it through someone close to him, probably someone, you know, a brother in arms.
[Speaker 1]
Also, the older people were not buying into this.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, for sure not. Well, they just came out of something or were told out to do.
[Speaker 1]
So I don't think my grandfather had a saying between the Nazis and the communists. He used to say it's the same pile of shit, just different flies. Yeah.
[Speaker 2]
Or different smell.
[Speaker 1]
Right. Right. Different flies.
That's what he said. So so they reported he reported him and someone that was in the police force or in that organization that would get wind of this was a customer of my dad's and a friend of his. He told him about it.
And he said, you you better watch your back. So my dad decided it was time to pack up and leave.
[Speaker 2]
OK, let me ask you, let me stop you there for a second, because it's very important. Obviously, we have some family members that came from East Germany as well, but many of our family, our media or our family is is still in what was East Germany. Obviously, the wall's been down since it's no longer that.
But they stayed.
[Speaker 1]
Everyone except well, you're except later.
[Speaker 2]
Right. Father and brother. But this is the thing.
So your father decides this. Now, who can he tell? Who can't he tell?
I mean, he can't tell anyone. Right. Not even family.
[Speaker 1]
Right. Right. So so we concocted a story.
They concocted a story. They my mom. And my sister and I left first because you couldn't leave in mass, because at that time you couldn't you you couldn't travel to Berlin as a whole family unit.
Because it would arouse suspicion.
[Speaker 2]
Right. Ring alarms. Right.
Ring alarms that, oh, my gosh, people are leaving as a group that obviously leave together would make sense. You'd want to leave for good. If it's if it's broken up, it's less suspicious for certain.
[Speaker 1]
Correct. And and just to give a geographical background, Berlin is important. Berlin is in the middle of East Germany.
Right. So there is a free part is divided into East and West.
[Speaker 2]
Yes. So there's a free part of Berlin, the West. There's a West German portion of Berlin.
However, the entirety is physically in inside the borders of East Germany, even though it's sovereign within that Eastern. So even if you got there. Leaving outside, leaving by ground transportation of any kind would have to be going through the country that you're trying to escape, leave.
Right.
[Speaker 1]
So so you had to have a legitimate reason. One of them was people still did work in West Berlin that lived in East Germany. Another was at that time, this was before the wall.
So there were sports events that people would travel to, but you'd have to have the physical tickets and and other would be to maybe visit family. So we traveled with a man who happened to be visiting in our town at the time who was.
[Speaker 2]
So how before that this is this you're talking about the story about leaving, correct? Right. Right.
Before that, your father comes home or how how how does this get it communicated to your mother and you and your daughter and your youngest sister? Who's first of all, you're nine. She's two.
She's not even going to grasp this. So how is that? So what are you told the night before or the night before?
[Speaker 1]
We were told that we were visiting my grandparents. They couldn't tell me because I probably would have run back and.
[Speaker 2]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
Well, if we do. Right.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. I mean, you're not exactly going to evade the question.
[Speaker 1]
I would not have wanted to leave probably. And and they couldn't trust me to understand what what was going on or what the reasoning was behind it. But somehow my father convinced my mother to do this for the safety of the whole family because he felt he was going to be locked up.
And that probably would have happened eventually.
[Speaker 2]
So you felt that or your father felt getting you guys out, but he might suffer imprisonment and re whatever reeducation or whatever.
[Speaker 1]
That was the first step.
[Speaker 2]
That was the first thought, though.
[Speaker 1]
The main reason was not to leave in mass so we wouldn't create suspicion. So this teacher that was visiting his son, I mean, this this man that was visiting his son, who was a teacher, but he was of the old school.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
And he he was a friend of my father's. And he said, your your wife and the two kids can travel with my dad. He's got he lived in West Berlin, the father.
[Speaker 2]
Right. So that's obviously a bonus because I have now a physical address.
[Speaker 1]
Played as our as though he was our uncle.
[Speaker 2]
So so he didn't have paperwork showing uncle. Now, even if the name was different, but you could say, oh, yeah, we're married or whatever. It's my dog, my sister's child.
Right. Okay. He's very interesting.
So we we traveled. How often would you say now in hindsight that happened? I mean, in was this was this kind of a common way to do it if you were going to do it?
Or?
[Speaker 1]
Well, the main thing was to get into Berlin.
[Speaker 2]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
Once you're in West Berlin, at least that's where you or if you had family in the West to visit them and never come back. Right. But we we didn't have that luxury.
So because we every every one of them in our family lived in East Germany and. Right.
[Speaker 2]
You didn't have that option.
[Speaker 1]
Right. So we I remember it was March we left. I remember my mom just nine, two and three pair of underpants, undershirt on you, on me because you couldn't take a lot of luggage.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
We couldn't. So, you know, we're going for two days to visit my uncle. You know, that's actually he poses my mom's uncle because he was an older man.
So so we we went into Berlin and in East Berlin, before you get into the West, they they would block the train by putting the huge iron like a tree.
[Speaker 2]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
Eye beams or something in front of across the train could not in case there was some conspiracy that the whole train was escaping or something.
[Speaker 2]
Right. Like some kind of check.
[Speaker 1]
And then the Vopos came on board with what's a Vopo.
[Speaker 2]
It's a voluntary police.
[Speaker 1]
No, it's a Volkspolizei, which means the police.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah. So the people's police.
[Speaker 1]
Police. Right. They came on board and they went through.
Everyone asked everyone where they were going. And of course, I was you know, we were told this is our uncle and we're visiting him.
[Speaker 2]
And, you know, so you had your story was true because you didn't have the truth. You had a story.
[Speaker 1]
Right. Right. And in Germany, if an older person call them uncle anyway, you don't call them by the first name or you don't call them.
You call them uncle.
[Speaker 2]
Everybody's an uncle or any friends or family.
[Speaker 1]
Right. Right.
[Speaker 2]
In the German culture.
[Speaker 1]
Right. Correct. So we we didn't rouse any suspicion.
Other people, I mean, they checked their luggage.
[Speaker 2]
They shared a story about someone, a family getting pulled off and not going back.
[Speaker 1]
That was correct. Correct.
[Speaker 2]
Tell me about that because you're nine years old and you don't know what you're doing. So obviously. But just tell me about that experience.
[Speaker 1]
There were two women and they made the mistake of packing. They had bed sheets. They had they took household goods.
I mean, not hands, but yeah, like heirlooms or something.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
But, you know, the necessary things and right there that that totally aroused suspicion. And I remember them taking them, both of them off with their luggage. And we never we didn't see him again when the train left.
So. So. All right.
So we got across.
[Speaker 2]
But just the image of these VOPOs coming on.
[Speaker 1]
Yeah. I was a little scared because they had nine.
[Speaker 2]
Right. I mean, they're armed. They're armed.
Right. Right. And they're imposing figures.
Right. They're already imposing to adults. And you're you're nine years old.
[Speaker 1]
And I can imagine my mother must have been sweating.
[Speaker 2]
Right.
[Speaker 1]
Everybody was scared to host the whole the whole feeling in the country was scared.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
Was people people would close their windows when they talked because they were afraid somebody would go by that would hear something negative that they weren't supposed to be thinking or saying or it was it was just a different. Of course, as children, you don't you don't grasp that.
[Speaker 2]
No, I can't imagine any child grasping the nuance of secrecy and is regime change, philosophical, ideological, ideological loss coming out of the war. I mean, all these emotions at one time are just being flooded. Right.
And there's a there's a power vacuum. Right. To an extent.
Right. Which the Soviets were very quick to fill, happily fill that void. And that's what you're stuck in.
So these these two women were taken off and never seen again. And I'm not by us. So the imposing nature, though, of this trip as a whole must have just been generally scary in a way.
But but how how did your younger sister react? She's two years old.
[Speaker 1]
She was okay.
[Speaker 2]
She wasn't crying. It wasn't like crying.
[Speaker 1]
She didn't know what was going on. So that night, we stayed at this man's house. And the next day, so the idea we're still in East Berlin, we're still in East Berlin.
Right now, once again, the whole thing was to get into Berlin, right into East Berlin, right into East Berlin.
[Speaker 2]
But it was to get ultimately into West Berlin. Correct. So once again, you're in physical territory of East Germany, the country, you travel to East Berlin, which is still East Germany.
Correct. Then there is a section called West Germany, which is the free democrat, the West German.
[Speaker 1]
Actually, after the war, you have to get into Berlin got divided into four sections, right? The Russian section, which was East Berlin, the French section, the American section and the British section, West Berlin, we gave our section to Russia, which they took.
[Speaker 2]
No. Well, we split up after we did give our section of Germany to Russia to manage. If I'm if I'm not mistaken, because we back we were in a different landmass.
I mean, we didn't have the logistics to write to manage, but not Berlin. Berlin was no Berlin's different.
[Speaker 1]
Berlin was divided into four. But. It was eventually what is West Germany, which which was the British sector, the French, the French sector and the American sector, which was given to the West German government at the end.
But Russia never did that.
[Speaker 2]
Right. Russia did not their territory.
[Speaker 1]
They still controlled the government or whatever.
[Speaker 2]
Yes.
[Speaker 1]
So OK, so we are in East Berlin and now we have to go into West. We have to get into West Berlin. And this man advised my parents, I was only told this later.
I didn't know this at the time, but they advised to go cross at the French sector. Why, I don't know, but it was the French controlled sector. So you just had to go to the.
To the. To what was the gate like a cross, like a gate with whatever, like a little and they let you in. They let OK.
But once you were in West Berlin, you had to report to.
[Speaker 2]
To a headquarters in in West Berlin, like an embassy, almost correct political asylum, you're seeking political asylum, I'm saying is you're OK, so you after you're there, you still have to now. Get a hard right now, you have to actually.
[Speaker 1]
Right.
[Speaker 2]
You're physically there, but you're not actually citizen of anything because you're leaving this thing.
[Speaker 1]
Now you need to become a citizen of or so you had to get in in line. I mean, there was a line.
[Speaker 2]
I understand the line was long. Was it three weeks? Is that correct?
[Speaker 1]
It was a week later.
[Speaker 2]
We were it was a week.
[Speaker 1]
OK, still in line when my dad came a week later.
[Speaker 2]
OK, so you were still in line. And then how much longer would you say after that another week or no? OK, so maybe 10 days.
[Speaker 1]
Pretty, pretty quick after that.
[Speaker 2]
OK, but but literally standing in line outside for a week. Right. Plus.
Right.
[Speaker 1]
Right. There were six. Just to be free.
And at the end, there were six thousand people a day.
[Speaker 2]
Right. Six to nine thousand a day before the wall went up. Six to nine thousand people per day were leaving.
[Speaker 1]
They almost had to put the wall up because West Germany could not accommodate all these refugees. East Germany was going to be empty.
[Speaker 2]
Right. They couldn't lose them.
[Speaker 1]
So something had to be done.
[Speaker 2]
So I'm curious about that. How much of an agreement? Yes, that's I'm curious.
I hate to look behind the veil on every. I always look behind the curtain. I don't know why, but that is my nature.
Right. And I am curious the burden that West Germany was feeling from the from the exodus. In addition, combined with East Germany not having saying they were just recovering.
Right.
[Speaker 1]
From the war. This is 53. Right.
It was less than 10 years after the war.
[Speaker 2]
Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
They they were still bombed out.
[Speaker 2]
And just to be clear, the story from my father's side, this is how crazy it was. If you pull up a map of Germany and you look up a city called Hamburg, it's on the north northern war section. And they walked.
He two brothers, a sister and another brother who died of malnutrition from during the war with the mother and the father. Now, no, not the father, just the mother, the mother, my father, his two brothers and a sister walked from Hamburg to Berlin, Berlin, hand in hand or whatever to get away from get away from the bombing that was happening during the war. So we're talking less.
We're talking 10 years or less removed from that and the economic impact of rebuilding and restructuring everything, all of it. And then it does make you wonder. I hate I hate to do it.
But I wonder then what kind of agreement was struck to hold these people in place.
[Speaker 1]
Right. I mean, the cities were decimated. The cities were total.
And that's where the most population lives. So they were the most homeless already, you know. So, OK, so so we finally get and reported to this government agency, this West German government agency for political asylum.
Now, if if you belong to the Communist Party, which was not didn't mean you believed in it. It all depended what kind of job you had. Some jobs required that you belong to the party.
[Speaker 2]
Like like my grandfather on my father's side. My father's father was a Nazi, was in the Nazi party, but he was a civil engineer and he built sewers and lights. You know, he built sewers and electricity and and and infrastructure.
Yet after the war, anyone who was part of the Nazi party, regardless, was blacklisted for five years, five years.
[Speaker 1]
He could not work.
[Speaker 2]
Right. So as a he was not allowed to work, but he only signed up for the Nazi party because that's what he knew.
[Speaker 1]
So he had employment.
[Speaker 2]
He needed to do that during the war. And it cost him further education and employment. Absolutely.
Right. So so now you're now you're here and at this embassy, your father is not a registered communist.
[Speaker 1]
No, because he was self-employed. He was a barber and he's self-employed. So he didn't there was never a need for him unless he wanted to, because he believed in this ideology, which he obviously did not.
Otherwise we wouldn't have left.
[Speaker 2]
Right. But that makes it easier for the transition, correct, that he never indoctrinated by signing up.
[Speaker 1]
Anyone who belonged to the party did not get political asylum, which meant they could stay in West Berlin but not become citizens, not travel into West Germany.
[Speaker 2]
So they could be free within the city of West Berlin.
[Speaker 1]
But nobody want West Berlin was not in the middle of East Germany. Nobody wanted to be in West Berlin economically. And certainly not hardly any chance in there.
So a lot of these people went back home. A lot of them did. A lot of them.
[Speaker 2]
So and imagine this. Imagine you're just trying to get everyone to shut up around you. So you just sign up.
I mean, it's so simple, right? Just get off my back. OK, fine.
I sign up and you sign your name, your chicken scratch name. You don't even care. Right.
Next thing you know, you're going you've never agreed with this, but you just went along to buy your time, your time, whatever you go here. And now you can't. I mean, this weird level of regret of some strange thing from something you didn't even know you would have.
[Speaker 1]
We talk about actually repercussions.
[Speaker 2]
We talk about actions and consequences.
[Speaker 1]
And we talk about talking serious repercussions could mean the difference your freedom, your whole life, your freedom of your absolute human right.
[Speaker 2]
Freedom is at stake with a single little chicken scratch that you probably just was not. We're not even interested in just to get people to shut up.
[Speaker 1]
I would imagine maybe they did a couple more thorough research where they found that it wasn't part of their job if they weren't in the military and communist or I don't know how far extensively that went.
[Speaker 2]
But still, I could see. Right. I would see that as the first line, because once again, West Germany also doesn't cannot afford to absorb all these people.
So they have to find some happy medium here.
[Speaker 1]
Right. Right. Plus, they didn't want communists infiltrating West Germany.
[Speaker 2]
Well, that's also the Red Scares starting up.
[Speaker 1]
Right. Right.
[Speaker 2]
I in America. I mean, the Red Scare is rampant at this point.
[Speaker 1]
Right. So we we were accepted. We we were given permission to continue into West Germany.
First, we spent six weeks in Berlin, East Berlin, in a refugee camp under horrible conditions, just because of the sheer magnitude of, you know, like the kids in cages nowadays.
[Speaker 2]
The logistics of it is almost impossible to imagine.
[Speaker 1]
You can't understand how hard it is sleeping on the floor with a blanket around for all four people. That's your living area.
[Speaker 2]
And it is a shitty condition. But you're not complaining. It's just a shitty condition.
[Speaker 1]
I think my mother was complaining.
[Speaker 2]
I think I think they think that they expect it to be better.
[Speaker 1]
They didn't have a bad, bad life back there.
[Speaker 2]
It was just the feeling of freedom that the whole but that's what I mean is it was the expectation that it was going to be the shiny thing that everyone got to like it was going to be this utopia and then it just turns out to be a bunch of dirty tents. Do you know what I mean?
[Speaker 1]
Like the expectation kind of I think I think not the first six weeks when it turned into a year and a half of it. Yeah, I remember my mother crying many times many times missing her family.
[Speaker 2]
Oh, the home sickness I can imagine. Yeah.
[Speaker 1]
There was it was, we came from a we broke your family is broken up.
[Speaker 2]
It was Friday became fractured by by nest by Nessus necessity not and none of the
[Speaker 1]
relatives knew that they were going to do this right then you could tell anyone right if you
[Speaker 2]
got wind of if anyone got wind of you're in jail and they were they would right and they would be
[Speaker 1]
punished if they knew because right and the fact of not reporting them or not you know tattle telling ever came up after right it's so they could not take the chance of any of them knowing
[Speaker 2]
they call it plausible deniability right you know it's like they I never knew he never told how would I pass I have nothing to withhold because I wasn't told anything that I needed
[Speaker 1]
and if they thought that it would jeopardize their job it would yeah their livelihood I mean it had to be totally totally secretive so you're six and a half weeks in East Germany now East Germany now what's the next the next step is you get airlifted out of West Berlin into West Germany because you couldn't ground travel because you would be back in East right they could they could
[Speaker 2]
take potentially take you off absolutely because you now know that you're a political prisoner
[Speaker 1]
and a half weeks they they got wind of it back home already you're on a list yeah I mean they had a they had a network of I think somewhere I read for every citizen for every five citizens they had a an agent or a a police I remember there being a really weird number totally totally I mean the spy network was unbelievable well plus it also was civilian based because you got credit
[Speaker 2]
and you got you got a lot of accolades for reporting and sometimes or you get you know maybe you get an extra ration here or an extra you know accolade there or an award whatever that
[Speaker 1]
would that might be some kind of reward in some sense so so we got into West Germany and from there we were shipped from camp to camp okay so there's all throughout there's a camp in western
[Speaker 2]
there are multiple camps all over the place so you you went to another camp then right not you haven't you don't have a fixed structure yet you're still in five weeks then they ship you to another
[Speaker 1]
one okay I don't know why it kept maybe because drop opportunities were cropping up there they
[Speaker 2]
were they were just trying to see what they were trying to throw and shit against the wall to see
[Speaker 1]
kind of almost in a weird way it's like we went we were in at least four or five different
[Speaker 2]
refugee camps during that time do you remember I mean you're you're not old enough to even think to recall this stuff so do you remember where you were I do remember the conditions no the cities
[Speaker 1]
like do you remember the four places one was in Karlsruhe one was in a place called Weinsberg one was in I don't remember the third one the fourth one was in a place called Pforzheim where near Stuttgart where we eventually stayed that was the last stop in West Germany that was a major city right right well Pforzheim is too it's called the called gold city okay and had a lot of jewelry and a lot of so so you also sign up for to be able to get an apartment or a place to live and that's how long it took two years to to get an apartment and you know they built these new housing uh which were integrated refugees and the homogenous people a lot of those were displaced from the cities still remember Germany lost a lot of housing just after after the war every family like my in-laws had lived in an apartment and they had to share it with three other families that was you had to do that that was because there otherwise there would have been nothing but homeless people so that was that was a mandatory thing until the housing was built to catch up to this need that that's what was done right so um so you're in Pforzheim so we're our last refugee stop um and we got an apartment but around this like around this time um my father was already saying oh I don't know if this is going to be our last stop or if we're going to go somewhere else yet well we get this apartment and there was a a hatred of the refugees if something if something was stolen is something was it was it was blamed on the refugees well
[Speaker 2]
it's no longer your tribe I mean it's we're looking at this it's funny we talk about humanity because this is the one thing that that always crops up on this show is we have a people all together under nazi regime unified nationalist we're true germans are very nationalistic it's an odd thing but they are the germ people are so they all together and then the war is lost and they're broken up and now they are now in their own individual tribes and in less than 10 years or in 10 years right you already have people who fought on the same side towards a unified goal not the correct goal but a unified goal right together who fought arm in arm hand in hand now are at odds right within in 10 years we're getting housing because resources are limited that live there resources are limited and who to whom do you give them this is where the humanity comes out and that's like the evolutionary in a weird way greed or I can't blame them no not at
[Speaker 1]
all but that's what's funny about the humanity the hatred you could feel it but that's what but
[Speaker 2]
that's what speaks to the craziness of humanity we are both together and completely apart depending on the situation the context of the time situation and everything we're human we we are not we are not robots this is the whole this is the fluidity of of man and woman right throughout time so we
[Speaker 1]
had that there was there were greens at this apartment and but we weren't supposed to play on the grass it's Germany after all you don't play on the grass you don't play period okay so so there was a whole bunch of us kids and we were playing soccer or kickball or even throwing the ball and the manager of the apartment building singled me out I was the only refugee among the kids playing singled me out and slapped me because I was on the grass but they all were they all singled me out took me and slapped me for playing on the grass and I went back home and I told my dad and my father said he is not going to let this go he took the guy to court now let's talk about this yeah now let's talk about the American system
[Speaker 2]
first very simple America's litigious society you can sue anyone for anything without many repercussions financially or anything so there might be a cost a little bit of court costs here and there but you can pretty much get away almost for little cost to sue anyone in the United States
[Speaker 1]
Germany has a German system tell us about this one you sue if you win the lawsuit fine the person that loses the loss if you're the litigate if you're the instigator of the lawsuit if you lose the lawsuit that you instigated you pay the other person's legal fees so there's a high cost your own right you're not gonna you're not gonna sue willy-nilly just because the McDonald's coffee was too hot or you have you you have to be pretty sure of winning
[Speaker 2]
right before your father your father is a refugee hold on your father's a refugee limited money just got an apartment at this place right but he felt so strongly about this so strong in his convictions that he he will not take this this is a stand that he takes this is a pretty honorable I mean I would say a very honorable move in this way and just to even leave East Germany all of it all of it just but in this case it took the the the the risk to losing this when there's already a bias against you as a refugee right right so there's all you know you could
[Speaker 1]
have legal system enough that they would be fair right what right we're coming out of this experience
[Speaker 2]
right so so then it happened so he won he won the law and he won right right now do you remember was it assault was it a I don't know okay whatever it was nine and a half years old ten years old I don't whatever he fought he won it doesn't matter that's that's really the important
[Speaker 1]
right he's here okay so but at this point my dad made up his mind I don't want to stay here I don't want to live where I'm a second-class citizen I don't want to live uh Germans it wasn't like Americans are Americans are so welcoming maybe not now anymore but certainly when we came we were so welcoming of foreigners and they were so supportive and so melting pot it was it really was the idea that Germany at least at that time West Germany was
[Speaker 2]
not and it's because of the circumstance well right let's be honest once again they right they're a down right now you let's even go back slightly further we've got world war one awful right out lost that out of world war one comes crazy sanctions that are just insurmountable then the depression here it's I think a third but there it's a half or here it's a quarter there it's a third it's ridiculous the amount of unemployment and then to get out of that but by getting out of that that put them into war because war creates production that's what Hitler did what he said yep but he also did what he said right right then we come out of this now another bombed destroyed down to what are we doing then you're broken up you're splitting it to now your siblings fighting over similar resource what do you do how do you how does how do a people feel at this point right everything's been done on their soil the war is there too right it's not like I mean America loses there's never been a single
[Speaker 1]
building except the civil war right really and the revolutionary right and war of 1812 any other war we've been involved in war of 1812 when they burned down Washington DC but that's
[Speaker 2]
but still yeah regardless we lose world war two there's no physical I mean there might be an economic impact but not a physical harm to any of our cities right it's amazing it really is amazing
[Speaker 1]
what Europe had to endure endure correct all of Europe all of Europe so so my dad said I I'm not going to stay here but we really had limited options of course America would have been our first choice but you need a sponsor and again I don't know if that has changed I don't think so I just don't think it's as honored as what it used to be
[Speaker 2]
um yeah sponsorship was a very big step because you took on debt for you you would take on takes
[Speaker 1]
on the responsibility of the you sign for them all of them that you signed for whatever in this case it would be four people right if you incur debt that you didn't pay the sponsor is responsible for doing that so it was a it was a big and who's going to do that but relative and and you didn't have relatives we had no one we knew no one we knew my dad didn't know a single person in the U.S. so he decided okay Australia well it turns out that Australia only wanted farmers at that you know you know your grandfather he that would be the last thing he would want to do his farm yes he's a beautician barber he's constantly washing his hands they're constantly in water he's not going to get his hands dirty like that a farmer would have to do that would not be something he could do successfully or so that so that was out so then we decided to apply to Canada because once you're in Canada you can come cross over immigrate to the U.S. without a
[Speaker 2]
sponsor once we have and we've had that we have relatives and family friends who have done not relatives but family friends who have done that they went into Canada and then came from
[Speaker 1]
came to the U.S. right so of course you know you they check you health wise and and my sister had a herniated herniated navel which means she's had an outie she had an outie instead of an innie it wasn't a Volkswagen it was an Audi right and so they they refused us for health reasons we did not get accepted into Canada okay so I guess that idea's out we're stuck here so my father did various jobs during those two years that we were in West Germany but he finally after we found we found an apartment and he finally found employment in his craft okay now where is this this is in Pforzheim okay so it is so you you stay the last kind of camp you were the last city about that you stayed around nine months was probably in Pforzheim okay between the refugee camp there and then having the apartment okay so my father found employment in Center City and he he was he waited on there was a customer that lived in the U.S. who was visiting relatives and at the time in Philadelphia there was a German published news weekly newspaper and this man had this newspaper that he was reading and when he left he left it laying on the chair and in between customers you know the barber sit down and my dad picked it up and he's reading it and there was an advertisement for a beauty shop now not a help wanted ad but just advertising a beauty shop hey we we we style hair so my father decided to write to write this man that the owner of this beauty shop does not know this man doesn't know him doesn't know him from Adam has no idea writes a letter writes a letter to this man the address
[Speaker 2]
of the of the barber shop I'm assuming because it's on the right because that's a beauty shop
[Speaker 1]
because here it's separate in Germany it's one it's yeah it's a beauty it's a trade right as a
[Speaker 2]
whole it's an overall trade right but I'm just saying he sees the address obviously the address would have been on the advertisement where to look where to find it and that's how he writes
[Speaker 1]
he writes him a letter telling him his story telling him and there's a family with two children and and he'd love to come to the U.S. but he doesn't know a soul and explains this whole situation and this man decided to sponsor us sight unseen sight unseen two kids two adults
[Speaker 2]
right Germans right right now he was German absolutely he was born in Germany he was from
[Speaker 1]
Germany okay yeah he was but I'm saying I mean sure that came over as a young child but didn't
[Speaker 2]
have it didn't have a wife right did not have never married never had children never had anything right right so very unique very unique situation for a complete single individual well he lived with his mother so so which a lot of family I mean this is 1940s right
[Speaker 1]
no this is 50s but still still very I mean 55 50 a lot of ways 1955 so um he uh he said yes he would so my dad applied for a visa to come to the U.S. we had to travel to Frankfurt as a family a couple times uh to be to be uh to have a meeting with them to to to be presented you know in front of the of the board uh we had to have physicals and then wait in Germany yeah we had to be interviewed
[Speaker 2]
so you had American doctor American physicians doing physicals to see if you're fit to be live in the United States or something like that is that correct it was the embassy it was the American embassy it's all done through that right but they have to check for all those all kinds of physical
[Speaker 1]
ailments because they don't want somebody that absolutely not they're going to have to take care of than the rest of their life you know so um we then then he had to wait and that took quite a while till we got notification and in the meantime we were kind of acclimating ourselves we we started to feel comfortable growing pains right and and now that yeah we have a new apartment we just just bought brand new furniture uh or furniture period that you know you got a sofa and you were so happy and um and then we got notification that we were accepted my dad was all in yeah my mother oh she didn't want to leave now she she right now she's yeah right comfortable so far away i mean this was you know you didn't hop on a plane and you were back home took a boat this was you were never going to see your at that time you leave yeah you're never going to see your family again right uh so we we were we got permission to come over uh and we were sponsored by the lutheran church there were many refugee boats like this where this where the church sponsored their travel they actually gave paid for the voyage but you had to sign an iou an iou to pay it back to them there's a promissory notice promissory note which i still have my oh my dad's signature and take a picture of it so i can i have it in the book i have a we have a family we'll take a
[Speaker 2]
picture of it and just text it to me so i can add it to this to this episode i'll just have it on
[Speaker 1]
so that'd be fun to have right so um so we got permission uh and i don't it was like in the spring summer and our journey was going to be in november november 11th i think it was that we left but we had to leave for for bremerhaven a few days before and and we stayed in a camp there till the till the voyage and we came over we arrived in the u.s november 22nd in new york i remember the red cross meeting the red cross i remember the donuts they had gave out donuts to everybody and the red cross facilitated getting us to penn station
[Speaker 2]
to travel to 30th street penn station is in new york city new york city to train station 30th street is in pennsylvania in philadelphia i just want to say that because right i being from philadelphia i still when i hear penn station you think new york i think philadelphia because i think penn yeah i don't think 30th street but it's new york yeah right i don't it's funny even as a pennsylvanian just because penn station it's just funny anyway so so we arrived
[Speaker 1]
uh in philadelphia i remember getting off the train this man did not own a car so he sent a
[Speaker 2]
friend to pick us up he never owned a car that sounds creepy yeah but that sounds creepy in 2021 back in 1955 56 that was probably very 22nd that was surprisingly more more normal like yeah he's got a friend okay cool just hop in like trust right and i remember us
[Speaker 1]
being the last people standing on that platform and we had no idea was this person ever going to show what if you got ghosted back in 55 we had no idea oh my gosh finally and they kept announcing our name on the loudspeaker but we didn't understand it as being our name because they did it with the english pronunciation and we had no idea that like zimmerman zimmerman yeah and it in german you would say timoman right so it didn't even sound alike yeah so yeah i mean you're in a phone and then a loudspeaker on top of it you know that's not very clear would you like finally this man came up to us and he said are you and he spoke german are you the zimmerman family and said yes so then he drove us and dropped us off at this man's house and we stayed there for a couple weeks i guess for the first couple weeks and then he got he got us a place to live it was an old man who was in his 90s and he needed care so as as a exchange my mom taking care of the household and cooking for him we we were able to live there and then later after a few months of that my mom found a different type of employment my dad found a job in a barber shop in in the ogon section of philadelphia but we had no savings we had no we still owed money for the for the trip over here uh and my mom needed to find a real job where she could earn money and so they could get their own apartment i mean we were a family with two kids with an old man you know you had to you were very restricted and so she found a job in in a factory called pen fishing they made fishing reels right pen reels and from there she learned about uh this this uh it was actually a a uh a home uh for orphans but they also took in outsiders um a catholic home like i would say maybe 70 miles from philadelphia okay and near allentown
[Speaker 2]
pennsylvania isn't it cooper is it cooper coopersburg isn't that where the baseball hall thing no no that's new york town right that's in new york yeah i always get those right right
[Speaker 1]
but yes so we uh uh she told us about this place and she had her son there her son was there because they were in the same circumstances that we were in and her son attended there and uh so we inquired and yet they said they would accept us and it was a live-in you'd stayed there you only came home on certain holidays and most of the kids were orphans most of them but there were some others and i remember i think it was nine dollars a month for each of us to for room and board and health care health care so it it was a pretty good deal that is
[Speaker 2]
a pretty good deal daycare now is nine dollars every three minutes or so right right well see
[Speaker 1]
that was the other thing that that's the only choice my mom had because she had no relatives to watch us if i could be on my own because i was already 11 you know back then the the what did they what do they call them the latchkey kids that that was no big deal uh but my sister she was only four right hard to watch her at 11 you watch yourself well you're not allowed first of all i went to school you understand i had to go to school and the first few months before we went to this home i did go to a regular school uh because my mother stayed home at this old man's house and you know this older gentleman's house and did his whole you know his housework and everything so she was able to watch my sister but it didn't pay she didn't have an income so uh right and to get off your feet
[Speaker 2]
right there you need a source of starting an influx of right of funds right so so they were able to pay 18 a month and make more than $18 whatever right and anything extra was really the
[Speaker 1]
great right so uh we uh i mean i remember going to school nobody knew a word of english nobody i remember either the four of you you mean right i remember the kids would get up i would get up they would sit down i would sit down it was it was the strangest feeling i mean i didn't know a word of english i had no idea i remember i remember back then they had girl scout and boy scout days on wednesdays and all these kids came to school in their uniforms or brownie uniforms and their cop scout uniforms and i'm thinking oh is this like the young pioneers what you know right that's
[Speaker 2]
it's funny i even asked i didn't even know that you were going to mention that yeah it it was like
[Speaker 1]
i had no idea what was going on it was it was like a dream almost it was like a
[Speaker 2]
yeah it's funny once again we talked humanity you're mirroring right trying to fit in because you literally have no right you have no you you were completely in a foreign place and your instinct without even thought is i'll just do what the person next to me is doing that'll work
[Speaker 1]
everywhere we went when we lived in the refugee camps i would adopt the dialect of where we were just if they know it i would and i'm very good at it to this day when i watch a an english movie or i'm watching like some some of these series down abby or right i watched that absolutely fabulous for a while i the next day i find myself speaking internally with a british accent that that's how in tuned i am to dialects and or just changing that malleable right but
[Speaker 2]
that makes sense though because that's a that's one of the first ways language is one of the first ways to to connect to your tribe i mean once you're going place to place you don't have a home yet
[Speaker 1]
every place you have to fight and i can imagine i went to 32 different schools in my life and i can
[Speaker 2]
imagine the 32nd one how good how quickly you knew how to navigate the pitfalls of awkwardness and whatever to fit in quicker right like you probably evolved and each time became almost like
[Speaker 1]
a skill skill set it's very interesting right i've moved so many times so many different times that when i finally when i got married i have lived in the house that we bought after three years of marriage for 53 years i've not moved yet so that's your 32nd right that's a pretty good
[Speaker 2]
32nd time um so now you're in coopersburg in the orphanage right your mom and dad are working
[Speaker 1]
right and once a month they were allowed to visit okay and my sister she would she would cry she didn't understand what was going on why were they leaving why she's four years old she didn't
[Speaker 2]
understand either but you were more i understood about oh did you okay i didn't know i was by this right but yeah you knew you had to do what you had to do right my mom explained it
[Speaker 1]
she if she would have sent my sister on her own and kept me but she she needed my sister to have that right support yeah because i i could fend for myself i could go home you know by myself all that but my sister wasn't in school yet right so but they had there were german speaking nuns there and they helped tremendously with the language with the with the you know with the whole language problem right now the thing was my sister and i we were separated because they had a smaller uh dormitory for the small kids and then a certain age group right right but my mom implored them to please let my sister go over to the because she didn't know the language she she
[Speaker 2]
she was totally bewildered and it would help them i mean you're helping her well they said she could
[Speaker 1]
come over as long as she could keep up with that with you know with everything that had so it did put a little bit of stress on me because you had to have your bed made by six o'clock you had to have your teeth brushed you had to have your hair combed you had to be dressed you had to by six o'clock you you had to be ready kneeling with your hands folded ready for prayers and and my sister did not want to get she still well she she does get up early now but come on come on she's a farmer for goodness yeah right she gets up early i hope she gets up right but anyway never goes to sleep i'm not sure which one that is so so once she hit six years she was six years old and ready to go to school then we were taken out of there and we moved back home and by this time my parents had an apartment uh a nice little apartment and but they were financially able to um to make the
[Speaker 2]
family whole again i mean right there's i can't even imagine what i i i can't imagine what nothing is i really i just can't i've been blessed i've been fortunate i do not know what not or even like less than nothing i mean yeah you know right right i i can't imagine that level in i can't imagine anyway i it would be overwhelming for me for sure and i just the the fortitude is just crazy yeah yeah so you're back there um everything else happens but i mean just how the story of how
[Speaker 1]
you got here is just unbelievable yeah i mean that man siding for us yeah i mean a sponsorship was needed and a complete stranger complete stranger right who later sponsored my dad's brother and his family two years later okay that's how they came over and that's how but they came over not through berlin they didn't have to go through that through that they they came over because my aunt had family in west germany their grandfather her grandfather uh lived in west germany um well they were really displaced from from uh what now is poland but they were right which before the war was part of germany well after the war was
[Speaker 2]
germany's first act of war was invading poland right in 35 36 39 39 yes yeah so but yes it's still all i mean that whole area even bless you even though the even the check the check area you know the check and all the other things are all it's all dramatic i mean austria it's you know goes back to the ottoman kind of area yeah and very very it's just an amazing story of how i mean i could go into so many details but well you have a couple stories you want to share the one i remember um something about you you were given something to eat oh when we when we crossed over
[Speaker 1]
the border in berlin to west berlin to west berlin okay from east berlin you cross over through the french section right we got through there's a vendor on the other side on the west side there's a vendor and and he said oh with the little girl like a banana now of course he's a vendor so he's not going to give me for free banana for free right he's not going to give me the banana that's the best banana it he's going to give me the banana the least that he probably can't sell anymore yeah right so i never saw a banana in my life and those would probably have brown spots on them they soft a little okay my mom oh yeah my mom was like in heaven she hadn't seen a banana since before the war and oh and she i remember her peeling it and sticking it in my mouth and me getting it in my mouth and spitting it out and my mother was so embarrassed she slapped me in the face left and right yeah that was shameful yeah it was like to her that was but it was oh right you didn't experience the texture was foreign to me right and then i never a banana has this distinct taste i mean and you never had one i never had one before in my life and it was well i don't want to go as far as rotten but certainly brown soft brown or maybe then i might eat it nowadays when i have the choice you know yeah but still yeah but i mean once again it was not the optimal banana yeah not knowing right especially coming from not knowing right but my mom was so embarrassed here in front of this guy who's so generous to give a banana oh
[Speaker 2]
both sides of that were were fine right not you didn't know any better it's not like it was malicious but her her embarrassment and shame was real because it was a gift it was just a
[Speaker 1]
reaction it was a gift right yeah you know it's just one of those things yeah and that's that's really the only time i ever remember getting smacked from my mom that physical yeah you know and it was such a like a reaction with knee jerk reaction so absolutely so any other stories that
[Speaker 2]
came across come across your mind and what's interesting so basically your father's brother was also sponsored by the same person correct you said okay now this is what's interesting because once again your father did not tell his brother he couldn't tell his brother no so no so he only followed by example right he didn't know he didn't know how you did it because obviously he didn't know you that you did it right right unless they spoke well at that point could they communicate
[Speaker 1]
okay at that time sure you could like you could send letters not phone i mean but letters yeah because we knew nobody had a phone right that's true in our family anyway i mean there might have been one or two people in the whole town that owned a phone or had a phone but certainly not
[Speaker 2]
nobody from our did your father give you the pointer or give your brother his brother the pointer i don't know like hey this is what we did and how we did it i know because they were going
[Speaker 1]
an entirely different route and you would not put that down on paper that's what i mean that's
[Speaker 2]
what i'm asking right because your mail could could be watched that's what i mean that's why
[Speaker 1]
i'm asking now we're we're in the u.s maybe year and a half my father gets called down to the fbi this is in the middle of the cold war gets called down to the fbi he my father was a an avid people he was on the soccer team at the time when we left east germany he he was very involved in in sports in yeah community events and in all that so my my uncle would send once a month send my father with all the local soccer news and and it you know would be a manila envelope a little thicker than you know letter certainly but communication my father was getting them on a monthly basis and i would say after maybe a year or so uh he gets called down to the fbi and they have one of these laying in front of them okay and he had to open the envelope in front of them right for them to check the content sealed envelope right if there was any espionage any kind of i mean it was that that intense back then right they knew where you were they i mean the network you know was right but it was much greater on the other side on the paper some kind of code for something some yeah they he had to totally disassemble the contents of this only one time is that the only time they ever told him that's the only time he but then later on after no the wall was still up 89s when the wall went down right okay and this is 19 actually in 89 this is in 89 there's a november when the wall went down so right in august we had we had east german company our relatives 11 of them visit us 11 came over to visit and stay with my aunt and uncle and my mom and dad and uh at the time at the time they i mean there was no idea on the horizon that the wall was going to be down three months later it was it was totally unexpected as usual
[Speaker 2]
until it like literally next day was like what the hell just happened right like i mean i remember when it was a literal collapse it was a shock it was a literal collapse it was not a slow right ember fizzling out of the kind of the eastern block it was a pretty now the east
[Speaker 1]
germans could travel they came to you but never a husband and wife together unless they were on pension right because you just pull it they didn't care right whether they lost those but if you were productive working member you could only the wife only go or the husband only go uh if you had children or maybe only one or two of them if you had three of them not all of them could go never the whole family could visit as a whole so we we and we had them come over different family members at different times but this one time 11 of them came at one time three months before the wall came down and the fbi visited us so they knew they were here i was there and i don't remember
[Speaker 2]
that yeah i don't remember that they well you were born 80 1989 oh yeah okay right well they
[Speaker 1]
didn't visit us they visited my parents oh okay got it they they visited my parents okay so so
[Speaker 2]
but i mean we we live around the corner from that i mean yeah i know but they came right
[Speaker 1]
i'm just saying i don't remember what are they doing here what they started high school in just inquisitive they were just checking up to make sure that there was not exchange of information or you know anything my sister wanted to work for the fbi she she did not get accepted because of our connection to east germany uh it makes sense yeah i mean look they bought that it was a you know it was a real threat they you know it was a real threat yeah yeah i mean so it was beyond perceived
[Speaker 2]
for sure right right so that's everything that's well just about just just just a little bit just a little story yeah well it's just a remarkable thing i mean like i said i i'm so blessed that i was born here and it's i i had no choice just like pretty much no one who's born wherever they're born you're born where you're born right right um but just the story of perseverance and then i i mean i hate to say it but like it's like the doing it the right way right following the
[Speaker 1]
protocol right and many people went through that we are ours is only one story right and it it has to be that way i mean otherwise you're going to overload the system and and it's going to be chaos it's just you know just going to be chaos well that's just been an amazing story yeah so is
[Speaker 2]
there any final thoughts anything that you wanted to share i would just want to say that
[Speaker 1]
freedom is the best gift you can have and i hope we never lose it i hope i hope this country wakes up and and knows how blessed they are and and fights for it and appreciates it because unless you've lived under different conditions you you don't know what freedom you we really don't even know how lucky we are i don't think you understand the
[Speaker 2]
depth of freedom until it's taken right right and once it's taken it's getting it back is much more challenging than keeping it right than holding on to it in this current environment people are being shut down for ideas and thoughts and that should not ever happen it's scary to me it's frightening the answer to to a bad idea is a good one not to turn it off because i you know the more bad ideas the more you're exposed for just being dumb it's okay that's a good thing i want you to be exposed it doesn't mean more people are gonna be indoctrinated just because you're being allowed to say it everyone should be free that that speech is so important and it is it is lost not lost it's being it's being challenged slowly you've rode it it's being challenged for sure let's start there i don't want to i don't want to be nihilistic about it but it's challenging and we're seeing this with multiple things but you know we're seeing a change in a very different direction than you're used to it's not certainly not the america that you came to or that your father believed in or whatever but that's natural for a country to change and evolve but the way it's happening that but mirror starting to mirror similar things that you saw right that you experienced that you would never want to ever go back to because you experienced
[Speaker 1]
it for repercussions because the fear of repercussion or you know yeah so it's
[Speaker 2]
it's just a remarkable thing so thank you so much for sharing that i'm glad that we got this all to all on here because it's fun so is there anything else you want to share for anyone because we'll share this with our family obviously with everyone else out there in the podcast world but thanks for doing this mark absolutely well this once again a couple reasons i wanted to have my mother on and i'm so blessed thank you for for doing this mom i love you it it was great i'm so glad you could make this trip because we this was kind of one of the core thoughts for me to do this and we weren't sure how we're gonna do it but it came out i feel like it turned out very nicely so thank you good thanks um but it's one of those things where i know from where you came and i know what we grew up with and i knew what's changed everything i have a different perspective certainly than you but i'm not to the level at the current environment but what's interesting is i feel like there's this bridged gap where i i try to communicate concepts to the generation that doesn't understand the from the physical to the digital for example on in money is a good way to to talk or just the general concepts that are changing so rapidly in today's world but i'm also hoping to older understanding to the newer people but it's it's daunting because we're just being we're being pulled to extremes we're all just moving so fast yeah and and all i say is change is happening through the middle not to the middle right it never happens to the middle we just go okay let's just use orange hair guy didn't work let's go complete 180 on all fronts that's all it is i'm not i'm that's all we have to say in that direction it's just how humanity is we don't say orange hair didn't work is there something between orange hair and the other complete opposite of the orange hair because that i'm gonna tell you probably not gonna work because it's another the outsides don't work we work so well in the middle all of so many of our general concepts interpersonally many of us agree with many mild middle of the road type things but we have to choose a side for some reason and the free the lack of freedom to express where we are
[Speaker 1]
and a strong country has to have a strong middle class and that's what's being eroded yeah just the middle class
[Speaker 2]
totally and a completely additional issue that i can't even now we can't go there but we don't have enough time in the world but we just really want i mean just talking just speech freedom right the individual right the human right of the individual i'm i know this and this is what this is what i always see from your story is it started with x to shut down because it was bad and yes hate speech if it's hateful or whatever i would say is not good speech but it starts there but then the line keeps moving and before you know it something you said is now not acceptable only because that's the way it transitions now hate speech is not is not a good thing however the opposing piece to that would be good speech and speech about love and encouragement and exposing hate and and admonishing it it would be to speak against it not to turn it off not to shut it right it would just to speak against it you know which is the right thing to do speaking up you know the lack of ability to share concepts is is dangerous on on all sides this is not one side or another this is all sides but um just knowing what you came from what you experience and you see some similarities to the current change with and it starts with speech right and it starts with kind of the the shushing the shushing like the let this this can't be taught right we can't talk about that right um and that that's generally where it begins and that's what we're scared about so any final thoughts i'm just so blessed i love you mom nice to talk with you yes it was so much fun it was it's been a great trip so far and we're gonna have some more fun but um once again everybody this has been another episode of knocked conscious uh please follow subscribe rate review once again this is it's just a remarkable story i'm so blessed to have my mom here to share this story because it's such a unique thing i i know my brother has an older recording with my grandfather uh maybe we can transpose that onto some kind of audio and i'll release that in a future time just uh as an accompaniment to this but uh thank you again rita welcome say goodbye everybody wave to the camera bye everybody all right mom we'll love you very much thank you so much everyone you're welcome so much have yourself a great day once again knocked conscious.com take care everybody
