Transcript for my conversation with Rainer Zitelmann 6/1/2024

Speaker 1: Rainer Zitelmann

Speaker 2: Mark Puls

[Speaker 2] (0:00 - 1:15)

Hey everybody. And welcome to another episode of Knocked Conscious today. I had the pleasure of speaking with Rainer Zitelmann.

He wrote the book, How Nations Escape Poverty. He's written 28 additional books. It was a great conversation here.

It is. I hope you enjoy it. Hey everybody.

And welcome to another episode of knocked conscious today. I am very excited to be introducing a gentleman named Rainer Zitelmann. He's written 29 books, 29 people, his newest book, How Nations Escape Poverty.

Now, this is the great story. He is going to be at FreedomFest on July 10th through the July 13th, 2024 in fabulous Las Vegas, Nevada. I am also going to be there with media credentials.

I'm excited to meet this man, but people log on to freedomfest.com. Use code CONSCIOUS50 to get $50 off the current package. That's through me.

Get there. We're going to meet Rainer. Rainer.

So nice to meet you. Thank you for joining me on knocked conscious. Tell me everything about your book and, and about freedom fest and what you're doing and how you're getting here.

And we're going to go from there. Once again, the book, how nations escape poverty. Welcome.

[Speaker 1] (1:16 - 4:04)

Yes. Thank you for inviting me. Um, you know, the story of the book is as the title says, how can nations escape poverty?

And I start with Adam Smith because Adam Smith in his book, the wealth of nations, what he said, the only way to escape poverty is economic growth. And the most important precondition for economic growth is economic freedom. And history proved him right.

Uh, because 20 years ago, 90% of the worldwide population lived in extreme poverty to dates less than 9%. So he was right. But then today, a lot of people think the best way to escape poverty is development aids, anti-capitalist leftist people.

They tell we should give more development aid to Africa, but it did not work. They got billions and billions and billions development aid in the last decades, but it's still the poorest or continent. And I am an historian, so I don't like to discuss so much about theory, but I give two perfect examples from history, how nations escape poverty.

The first is Vietnam. Vietnam was in 1990, the poorest country in the world, poorer than all African countries. And there are different reasons.

First, of course, you know, they had the war with the United States. But what a lot of people don't know before the war with the United States, they had the war with France and then they had the war with Japan. And the war with China and with the United States.

So a lot of wars. And after they won the war, they implemented the socialist planned economy. What was before only in North Vietnam, also in South Vietnam.

And to make a long story short, what was not destroyed by all these wars was destroyed by the planned economy. And people were so poor. I have this interviews with people in Vietnam.

I've been there and they told me how to stand there, how they had to stand there in long, long lines, waiting hours and hours and hours, even sometimes days to get maybe only a handful of rice or a pair of shoes, maybe. They were really terrible, absolutely poor. And then they started in the end of the 80s with free market reforms.

They allowed private property. They opened the economy. They welcomed foreign investors.

They didn't see foreign investors as enemies, as a lot of third world countries do, but as investors, as people who will help them. And like collaborators, right?

[Speaker 2] (4:04 - 4:07)

More working with you, not working on you or at you.

[Speaker 1] (4:08 - 5:07)

And what was the result? The number of people living in poverty decreased in Vietnam from 80 to 80 percent in 1990 to less than 5 percent today. They call themselves still socialist and with the Communist Party.

And yes, the political system, this is correct. It's not a democracy. It's a one party system.

But the economy, they think very entrepreneurial and don't believe that. It's easier to find a Marxist at a university in the United States or in Europe than in Vietnam. I know it because I had their lectures on several universities.

The other example in my book is Poland. Poland, in a way, has a lot in common with Vietnam. They were also victims of a war, the Second World War.

You know, there's Russia, the Soviet Union with Stalin and Germany with Adolf Hitler.

[Speaker 2] (5:09 - 5:19)

I think I saw a statistic where over in the last 200 years or something, they had been conquered eight times by different nations or something over that time.

[Speaker 1] (5:19 - 5:22)

It's just ridiculous. I know that's definitely they were divided.

[Speaker 2] (5:22 - 5:23)

These change of ownership.

[Speaker 1] (5:24 - 7:20)

Four times they were divided. And so and they lost more people in the Second World War than any other country with, of course, just the two population. And after the Second World War, they started also with a planned economy.

And it was the same story. I have it in my book that people had to stand in long, long queues, long lines to get the products of life. But there was a strong workers' movement, an anti-socialist workers' movement.

So this is a funny thing that the so-called paradise for workers, for how communists called their system, was in the end the opposition, these workers who ended the system. By the way, I produced also a film about Poland. You can find it for free on YouTube.

It's the title is Poland from Socialism to Prosperity, Poland from Socialism to Prosperity. And the story in Poland is similar to Vietnam. First, they had the war.

Poland lost more people in the Second World War than any other country, of course, adjusted to the population. And after the war, they implemented the planned economy as they did it in Vietnam. And what was not destroyed by the war was destroyed by the planned economy.

And even in the 80s, they had ration cards. They had to stand for hours and hours, sometimes for days in long lines to get only products like a pair of shoes, for example. But you had no guarantee that after this four or five hours, you get your shoes.

Maybe they were sold out and then you took any other shoes in the hope you can exchange them in the end with some.

[Speaker 2] (7:20 - 7:57)

So this was that was that was what that's what my my mother, my mother family in East Germany actually experienced because they stayed a lot of my my like I said, my family came over. So what's interesting about that is they would like say tires would car tires would be the thing. Everyone would hoard the car tires because it's the only thing that was available.

And then they use that to barter for whatever was available that they didn't get in the other group of things that were handed out at the time. Yes, it's a pretty amazing thing. It gave rise to black markets and all these other barter systems that socialism was supposed to or communism, whatever that term is, was supposed to solve.

[Speaker 1] (7:58 - 11:15)

Absolutely. They they can live only with this black black market. But this was when I remember correctly, you told me she left East Germany in 1953.

So this was eight years after the war. But in Poland, this happened also in the 80s. So and that's where Lek Walesa came to prominence was 40 years after the war.

And they still have this system. And then what happened in 1990, they had capitalist reforms. They called it the shock therapy with Bajerowicz, who was the finance minister.

I met him. And it's amazing. Since three decades now, Poland is Europe's growth champion, the fastest growing country in Europe.

The standard of living increased dramatically. And so these are stories from real life, you know, about capitalism and socialism, because what socialists like, they love to talk about theories. And in theory, maybe socialism sometimes looks good on paper, but not if the paper is in a history book.

And, you know, I'm an historian. And so I'm not so much interested in a theory of perfect utopia. But real life, you know, to see what happened, what worked and what did not.

And so I have these two stories in my book, How Nations Escape Poverty, about Poland and about Vietnam to show to people that the only way to escape poverty is not redistribution, is not development aid, but it is economic freedom. Give people economic freedom. And the other lesson, what you mentioned before, you can't export it, not by war and not by any other means, not by peaceful means.

No, it has to come inside the country as a bottom up movement. And this was what happened in Vietnam, by the way, the same in China. In China, after Mao's death, the peasants, ordinary people, they started to leave the collectives.

They made things that were illegal at this time, but they had no alternative because of starvation, of hunger. They had to choose between doing things according to the law or to the rules or making the reforms by themselves. And so it started as a grassroots movement from hundreds of thousands and millions of peasants.

And later on, Deng Xiaoping in China or the leading party in Vietnam, they legalized only what started then. They said that they stopped to punish people for these things. But they said, OK, go on, go on like this.

And so and and I think this is also not a lesson. I told you that people in Vietnam, that they don't blame the United States for their problems. They could, it would be very easy in 1986.

[Speaker 2] (11:16 - 11:33)

Absolutely. It would be easy to have resentment. Let's let's be honest.

The Middle East is a good example. When Ron Paul talks about blowback, the Vietnam could have could have been a blowback type situation. The Middle East turned out to be more of that, where our pressure on them created a bigger back pressure.

[Speaker 1] (11:34 - 11:34)

Yes.

[Speaker 2] (11:35 - 11:36)

And ultimately led to 9-11.

[Speaker 1] (11:36 - 12:06)

I mean, and you know, but but what these people are doing, for example, in Africa, they blame always other countries for their problems. Oh, it's colonialism and we are victims of colonialism. And now you have to give us more development aid to make things good.

And the naive leftist and anti-capitalist in developed countries say, oh, yeah, yeah, we have to give them more development aid.

[Speaker 2] (12:07 - 12:29)

It's crazy because what we're seeing, we're seeing that break in Africa, though. Right. Are we not seeing Africa has basically tried to kick out France and America from from their interests in their in their natural resources.

And there's been an escalation with some military. And I think it is Zimbabwe or is it Zimbabwe going trying to get a goldback standard of some kind of currency?

[Speaker 1] (12:30 - 12:32)

I don't know. And I know only that they have.

[Speaker 2] (12:32 - 12:45)

So recent recent events have shown that I think they're starting to wake up to this piece of we want to manage our own from the inside out, not have this outside influence the way you're talking about where it's just sprinkled over top.

[Speaker 1] (12:45 - 15:06)

I hope they will be successful. But, you know, there are a lot of cases, unfortunately, where they are not. Look at South Africa.

All the Western world supported so much this Nelson Mandela and his movement. But if you see today, South Africa, it's a real mess and it's an absolute disaster. What what happens there today?

But what I want to say is something else. Now, it's for the individual the same as for a country. If you blame other people for your problems, you will never be successful.

The same with an individual. If you see yourself as a victim and it's their fault, I couldn't succeed in my job because the boss is so bad and I I couldn't make my driver license because the teacher there was worse bad or my parents or capital or whatever. No, you will never succeed.

And this is the same for a country. And in Vietnam, they started their economic reforms 11 years after the war. They could blame the United States for their problems, but they did not.

They saw it was our fault. Our party failed. We couldn't deliver what we promised to the people.

And so we have to change something. We can't use all this old recipes. We have to make some economic reforms.

And this is a lesson for countries and for individuals. Don't blame others. And this is if you want to understand me, also my philosophy.

I wrote another book. This book is called Unbreakable Spirit. And this is about very successful, disabled people, people who are blind, people with no arms, no legs, deaf people and so on.

And I wanted to find out what do they have in common, this successful, disabled people. And they never asked, why did this happen to me? Or they blamed other.

No, they saw that they saw themselves as a master of their own destiny. I have one example, for example, in my book. His name is Eric Weinmeier.

He's American. And he was the first blind man to climb the Mount Everest. Blind.

[Speaker 2] (15:06 - 15:09)

Yes, I remember that story. Yeah, I know that story.

[Speaker 1] (15:10 - 16:22)

But after he climbed the Mount Everest, what a lot of people don't know, it was not enough for him. He climbed the seven summits, the seven highest mounts on seven continents. And so I spoke with him and I spoke with other, for example, now he's a friend of mine.

He's a German. He has no arms, but he's one of the most successful hornists in the world. He travels all around the world playing horn, of course, only with his feet.

And I think for nations and for individuals, it is the same. Don't blame other people. Don't blame external circumstances.

We know it from psychological research that people who have this, what you call external locus of control. So you believe in fate and luck and all this external circumstances that control your life. These people are losers in most cases.

But people who have those internal locus of control, who think I'm the master of my own life and the same with countries, they can succeed.

[Speaker 2] (16:24 - 16:58)

Can I give you a personal example of that? It's perfect because I'm looking to go and get more into the podcasting space. So I've been doing this for about four years.

I have about 200 episodes. I am not known by anyone. The reason I'm not known by anyone is not because no one thinks I'm good or because I'm good and no one understands me.

It's because I haven't done the work on the back end to get searched. My search, my SEO, for example, is completely out of whack. So no one even knows to look for me.

That's on me. That's on me. Now I've started to address that.

[Speaker 1] (16:58 - 17:12)

Only if you know it's here and know if you're like, like, like, oh, we are so smart, but no one understands us. And so I would recommend you something. Wait a second.

[Speaker 2] (17:13 - 17:26)

And to that point, if I may, like I said, I'm not here to blame others. It's my fault that I'm not growing the way I need to. I need to engage more.

And since I've done it, I've taken upon myself and it's definitely paid dividends.

[Speaker 1] (17:26 - 17:37)

Please get this book. This is written for you, How People Become Famous. I analyzed people who become famous.

It's an art. This is what I watched.

[Speaker 2] (17:37 - 17:41)

I watched a speech that you did on YouTube.

[Speaker 1] (17:42 - 17:42)

Yes.

[Speaker 2] (17:42 - 17:47)

A gentleman introduced you and then you talked about the traits of highly successful people.

[Speaker 1] (17:47 - 18:42)

Yes. But this is this is especially how people become famous, because I analyzed as case studies, people from Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking, Muhammad Ali, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Steve Jobs, Oprah Winfrey, even Kim Kardashian. So they're very different.

You see here the subtitle genius of self-marketing from Albert Einstein to Kim Kardashian. What's funny to mention both of them in one. But these are the secrets.

If people how you can learn a lot from them, of course, not to copy them. But but it's a lot. And I also learned a lot from from them.

And it's I I'm I'm happy if you if you get this book and I hope this helps you with your podcast to to get really famous with your podcast.

[Speaker 2] (18:43 - 18:57)

Well, thank you very much. I'm just looking to to engage and try to spread the voices of liberty, to be honest. So today we're talking with Rainer Zittelman.

He's the author of How Nations Escape Poverty, plus 28 other books. Is that correct, Rainer?

[Speaker 1] (18:57 - 19:00)

Yes, this is correct. You can find them all on Amazon, for example.

[Speaker 2] (19:01 - 19:32)

Amazon. And I'll put links up on the on the piece as well. So thank you so much for joining me.

So let's talk let's talk a little bit about some other pieces talking about how we escape poverty. A third party libertarian candidate in Javier Millet gets elected to a country that is complete hyperinflation, complete economic turmoil. And he starts just slashing.

Talk to me about that and what your thoughts are about what and what that philosophy is compared to what your philosophy is and how other countries are doing this.

[Speaker 1] (19:33 - 19:39)

Absolutely. By the way, I will I will meet him in three weeks in Germany.

[Speaker 2] (19:39 - 19:40)

I'm so excited.

[Speaker 1] (19:43 - 20:23)

And I was I'm proud because I was one of the first people who said he he could win the election. And this was two years ago. The first time I heard about him, I have this Google alert.

And there I saw my name in an Argentinean newspaper in Spanish language. And it was with Javier Millet. I hadn't heard his name before.

And they asked him, what are you doing this afternoon? And he said, I will go home now and go on reading the new book from Rainer Seidelman, The Power of Capitalism. This is what he said, you know, so I know that he really.

[Speaker 2] (20:23 - 20:24)

Yes, yes.

[Speaker 1] (20:24 - 21:14)

He reads my books, for example, The Power of Capitalism. And I wanted to write the preface for the Spanish edition that would be published down in Argentina of how nations escape poverty. But he said, no, he has no time to do it now.

But I'm proud. His personal spokesman, the spokesman of the president of Javier Millet, he wrote the preface for the Spanish edition of the book. And so I know a lot about this movement because I've been there two years ago and I've been there also two days after the elections, after he won the war.

Of course, I would I like to talk then with him, but it was not possible because, of course, two days after he won the elections, he had to do most more important things than meeting me.

[Speaker 2] (21:14 - 21:16)

He had a couple of things to take care of.

[Speaker 1] (21:16 - 26:11)

But I met, but I met a lot of the leading people of his party when I spoke with him. This is, by the way, also part of my book where I look now for published in the United States Liberty Road Trip. I have two chapters about Argentina.

So what do I think about him? First, he has the right ideas. He believes the teachings of Mises and Hayek, the same as Balcerowicz in Poland.

You remember, I spoke about this reformer in Poland. They have a lot of things in common. They are both professors for Austrian economics.

They believe in Hayek and Mises and it worked in Poland. It could work in Argentina. The personality is very different, but the belief system is the same.

But now what is, but we can learn something from Poland. And this is the reason why it was so important for me to get this book out. Also in Argentina, I wrote a preface and I told the people, be patient, be patient.

This is the biggest challenge to me, because usually people in Argentina, they were never patient with politicians, with the exception of perilous. They were very patient about decades. I don't understand with this perilous who ruined the country.

And what I told them, what you have to understand, what went wrong over decades and decades and decades can't be fixed by no one in a couple of months. So it takes time. And this is also something that they can learn from my book, How Nations Escape Poverty, I tell the story about Poland.

And in Poland, first, after they started free market reforms, some things became worse. For two years, they had a decrease in the GDP and hidden unemployment became open unemployment. This is what happened always.

It happened also when Maggie Thatcher made their reforms in the 80s in the UK. And before it becomes better, it becomes worse. And this is what people have to understand.

And so my message to people in Argentina is in the preface to this book. You have to choose between two alternatives. First, be patient and give him this three or four years to see how things work or you're not patient and go back to all this crazy perilous system.

And then, of course, you will never escape poverty. And I think it's also a question what I saw in Argentina. It's there was about decades of mentality that they expect to get everything from the government, that they get everything.

I want to get it for free from the government. And for them, government is like their mother, like they were a little bit like children and that please, mother, give me this. Please, mother, give me that for free.

And I started that young people and Millet is supported, especially by young and poor people, that they're started to understand that this will not happen. I may tell you a little bit of a funny story. I had a lecture in a city in Argentina.

It was not Buenos Aires. It was another city with maybe only 100 people, young people in the beginning of the 20s. And there was a young man sitting in the first row.

He was not really handsome. So I thought maybe he has a girlfriend. This was my guess.

And so I asked him, hey, I came to him. Do you have a girlfriend? No, I don't have.

And then I asked him, would you love to have a really, really beautiful girlfriend? And yeah, he was in the beginning of 20s. And of course, I would like.

Then I asked him the next question, who do you expect will bring you this beautiful girlfriend? Is it the government? Is it the state?

And he laughed and said, no, I don't think so. And then I asked him, but what do you think who's responsible for getting this beautiful girlfriend? And his answer was, I think that's me.

My answer was, so now you've got all this classical liberal or libertarian philosophy. You don't have to know much more because this is not only true for the girlfriend. It's true for money.

It's true for all things that are really important in life. It's on you. Don't expect it from the government.

[Speaker 2] (26:12 - 26:39)

That is the lesson we need to take away from this. So on that on that behalf, we have a I would say of my audience that's growing, it is a highly libertarian minded audience. Did you watch the Libertarian Convention or any of the happenings?

Because I had Dr. Rechtenwald was my pick and he was endorsed by the Mises Caucus along with Clint, Clint Russell. Are you familiar with what was going on in the Libertarian Party Convention?

[Speaker 1] (26:40 - 28:22)

No, to be honest, I was never there. I only saw it now on TV that they booed Donald Trump. So what I like, to be honest, apologize to all the Trump fans who watch us now.

I, I have a different difficult position about Trump because for some, for some, he's the God. Oh, by Trump, everything what you do is so perfect. For other, he's the devil.

Everything he does is so bad. And for me, I have a different position. I say some things that he did was good.

He, for example, reduced taxes. He reduced some crazy regulations. Other things that he did were crazy or bad.

So I hope that there will be more Americans with a more differentiated position. And I liked it that the Libertarian Party invited him to their conference. But I liked also that he was he does he doesn't know it from from his rallies because he got all people screaming, oh, Donald, Donald, Donald.

And I think it's happened not so often for him that he was good. But I think it has a reason. And some other people abroad.

And I think this is what it how it should be in a free society and party that you can allow yourself to have a differentiated position. And I'm I'm happy that you have this two party system in the United States now with this working on it. This is one of the yes, but also I have to admit, Trump was right in one thing.

[Speaker 2] (28:23 - 28:30)

You know, when they attacked him, Trump was right on a lot of things, Reiner. Let's not I mean, I don't want to defend the guy, but the guy wasn't wrong about a lot of.

[Speaker 1] (28:31 - 29:29)

Oh, I'm talking now about his talk that the Congress of the Libertarian Party, what he said, said he was right with one thing that he said there and he said, OK, then go on. If you are happy with this, you get every year your three percent. Get on with this.

And this is a little bit the problem with the libertarian movement. You know, I saw it all over the world. I, I say there are only a few people who know the libertarian movement so good as I do because I've been in this 30 countries and in every country I spoke with them.

And it's in a way create people with great ideas. But they have one problem. Some of them love it to be a minority.

We know everything so good. We have here our teachings of Friedman and Rothbard and Hayek and all the other people they don't understand us. And this is a little bit like a cult, you know, for people like a cult.

[Speaker 2] (29:30 - 29:33)

Everything has a tribe. There's a cultism to all of it.

[Speaker 1] (29:34 - 30:39)

Yes. And this is a little bit of problem. Sometimes I have the feeling they even don't want to get power.

They even don't want to convince most of the people. Now with Millet, they criticize him. Oh, this is not so perfect what he does.

And then he has a coalition with people that we don't like. And so they want it 100 percent perfect. So and but there is nothing in the world like 100 percent perfect.

I saw it when I was in Poland at the capital's weekend. And there was the former mayor of Vilnius. And he told a lot of good things that he did there as a mayor.

For example, Uber get their permission in only three weeks. What is great. And and then one of this, I call him dogmatic libertarians.

He stood up and said, how can you call yourself a libertarian if you are a politician because politics means power upon people and you are not. So these are, you know, this kind of people.

[Speaker 2] (30:40 - 30:40)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (30:41 - 30:44)

You know, when I was young, I have to admit I was a Marxist, a Maoist.

[Speaker 2] (30:45 - 31:12)

And that's funny. Are you familiar with Dr. Recktenwald at all? Who with Dr. Michael Recktenwald?

He was a libertarian presidential candidate with the Mises Caucus. So he was actually endorsed by the Mises Caucus. Dr. Recktenwald. He's written 12 books, Google Archipelago, The Great Reset. And you and he he I don't know if he's going to be a Freedom Fest, but you two should talk because it sounds like you have a lot in common because he was a former Marxist. He he was a college professor.

[Speaker 1] (31:12 - 31:14)

If you have his email, please connect him with.

[Speaker 2] (31:15 - 31:16)

Yeah, absolutely. I'll connect you to.

[Speaker 1] (31:16 - 31:20)

I will be happy. I will send him some of my books and I look forward to it.

[Speaker 2] (31:20 - 31:22)

And share with me your story, too, please.

[Speaker 1] (31:23 - 33:40)

Yes, yes, yes. And, you know, when I was 13 years old, I started very young. 13 years old.

I founded a Maoist group at my school and I was the editor of a of a newspaper called The Red Banner. And we believed in Mao Zedong's teachings from China and Albania. And in this time, it it took something like 10 years not to be a Maoist hardcore, but to to be a Marxist in a way.

It was like a period of the beginning of the 20s in my life. And I met this dogmatic people there. I have this Lenin quote and the Stalin quote and this Mao Marx and here and some of this libertarian people, sometimes they remind me a little bit about this.

But I don't know. I never want to be again dogmatic. So I want to be free libertarian to means to be free or always to always to disagree with some opinions in the libertarian movement and have my own opinion about everything.

So, yes, but but it changed. There were a lot of reasons why it changed. One of the reasons was that when I wrote my first doctoral dissertation, I mentioned it's the book Hitler's National Socialism.

I saw that this Marxist theory, what they call fascism as a form of the rule of the financial capital and all this. This is totally crazy. And on the contrary, that that National Socialism was also a kind of revolutionary movement against capitalism, against liberal democracy.

And they were more communists and national socialists. They were more like competitors. And so so I saw I started then to doubt this or I see all these theories, Marxist theories.

I believed in before they are totally wrong. And so this this was a starting point why it changed.

[Speaker 2] (33:41 - 34:34)

Well, this is what's beautiful about this. You look at it and you say, OK, Marxism or whatever, it's like I OK, there's only this many people at the top. That's going to be true of any system.

There's going to be a hierarchy. There has to be. There's no other way to do it.

It's obviously a natural law that hierarchy is a thing. So there's going to be people at the top, middle, bottom. That's how it's going to be.

Even with animals, regardless of that, even with excuse me, even right. That's all the all the way through. Yeah, absolutely.

So you have this hierarchy. Now, would you like to have the opportunity to be the person at the top with hard work and and and some maybe a little luck, but definitely putting in the correct amount of energy in your passion? Or would you rather have a point some stranger to be at the top to give hand out table scraps to everyone else?

I never understood that second philosophy. No, no.

[Speaker 1] (34:34 - 35:31)

And, you know, to become a leading person in in such a social system, you have to be a party member and you have always to say yes, yes, yes. For for the for the party and for the ideology. But to become rich in capitalism, you have to do something else.

You have to fulfill needs and find solutions for problems from other people. This is the way because for me, capitalism is democracy in the economy. We decide every day whether someone like Jeff Bezos or Saoirse Prinne or Larry Page become rich.

If you order on Amazon, you make Jeff Bezos rich. If you don't want him rich, don't order on Amazon. And if you don't want to make Saoirse Prinne and Larry Page rich, don't use Google.

There are other search engines that you can use. So this is how.

[Speaker 2] (35:31 - 35:43)

And to that point, look at Bud Light and Target. Bud Light and Target suffered massive losses. From there, I mean, of 10 to 20, 30 percent market share because of their stances they took with certain ideologies.

[Speaker 1] (35:44 - 36:11)

Yes. And no, this is this is the way how to become rich. And this is what people don't understand.

Most people and especially anti-capitalists, they believe in something I call zero sum belief. They believe that some people become only rich because they took it away from the poor. This is what I call zero sum belief.

And that it is funny, right?

[Speaker 2] (36:11 - 36:28)

You get you have somebody who builds a whole empire on subscription, on subscription based entries, meaning you pay them monthly and they're blaming you for taking their money. Yes. So is that and that's a joke, right?

I mean, I guess that's a punchline.

[Speaker 1] (36:29 - 38:43)

And I think and it's not logical because I give you I told you about China. They have this economic reforms before they had this reforms. Eighty eight percent in 1981 lived in extreme poverty.

Today, it's less than one percent because they have this economic reforms. But at the same time, the number of billionaires increased from zero to now something like 600. Only the United States, you have more billionaires than in China.

So at the same time, the number of poor people decreased. The number of billionaires increased. So if the zero sum thinking would be correct, that rich people become rich because they took something away from the poor.

How could it be happen that at the same time, number of poor people decreases and number of wealthy people? No. The reason for both developments is the same.

These are two sides of the same coin. Economic growth, economic growth leads that some people become very rich and that the poor become less poor. But this is also what happened worldwide in the beginning of the 80s.

Forty three percent of the worldwide population lived in extreme poverty. Forty three to date, 8.5 percent. And on the other hand, the number of billionaires increased from 500 in 2000 to 2800 billionaires today.

So, you know, this is but the zero sum belief, this leads to also to envy, because if you believe this, the rich guys are only rich because they stole it from me. This is also the reason for envy. And I have a book about this.

This is called The Rich and Public Opinion. And I have one chapter about something I didn't know before. It's the scientific research about the causes of envy.

And what is what what was, you know, to understand what what envy means is that you don't want to reduce the gap between you and the guy who's better off by improving your own situation, but by tearing him down, taxing him higher or whatever.

[Speaker 2] (38:44 - 38:56)

And there's a saying in America, a rising tide lifts all ships. Right. To your point, the billionaires went up and the poor all went up.

Are you familiar with Steven Pinker's work overall over the years?

[Speaker 1] (38:56 - 38:57)

Yes, I know him.

[Speaker 2] (38:57 - 39:02)

I, you know him because he's going to be at Freedom Fest as well. I hope you can make an introduction for me.

[Speaker 1] (39:02 - 39:25)

It will be the first time I meet him in person because I had an email conversation with him before and I wanted to meet him. At but then was the Corona time and so I couldn't meet him in person, but I'm happy to meet him now. First time at the at the Freedom Fest.

[Speaker 2] (39:25 - 39:34)

Yes, I so many people I want to meet there that I don't even know where to go with the credential. I've got, you know, one person just I've got to replicate myself just so I can talk to everybody.

[Speaker 1] (39:34 - 40:41)

Yes. But if you always walk around and look and be the fastest after the lecture to to jump and go to him, this is the way I learned it. There's no other way.

I met this way. People I knew before, for example, I admire George Childer. Yes, you know, he wrote he wrote this book about wealth and poverty and I admired him.

But I met him at Freedom Fest and then I started to email with him. And now he is the one who wrote the preface for my book, How Nations Escape Poverty. But this happened at Freedom Fest or maybe, you know, Arthur B.

Laffer with the Slavikov. Yeah, I never met him before, but I met him at Freedom Fest and he wrote also now a preface for the new edition of my book, The Power of Capitalism. But it was always this way.

After they had a lecture, I run to be the first there and only had one minute to tell him, give him my my business card and asked him for for for his. And so it's a great place to get connected with with people.

[Speaker 2] (40:42 - 40:53)

And perhaps we can have a dinner. We've got four nights, so perhaps I can get a meal with us and we'll sit down. We'll speak German.

We'll have a nice German dinner. Yes, we'll go to Hofbrauhaus down the street on Kowal Street there.

[Speaker 1] (40:54 - 40:59)

I'd love to meet you there. Have you ever met Max Krusen, who's the organizer of the Freedom Fest?

[Speaker 2] (41:00 - 41:04)

I have not. This was my first time. I've only spoke with Valerie Durham.

[Speaker 1] (41:04 - 41:57)

He's he's great. I admire him and I tell you it was funny. It's a funny story.

I was two years ago at Freedom Fest and then the next year I wanted also to go there. And I tried with some people to get connected, to get an invitation. But but it failed.

I was not I was not successful. And then I emailed to Steve Forbes, who also reads also my books and recommended my books. And I emailed Steve Forbes, can you do something for me to to get me as a speaker on the next Freedom Fest?

He didn't answer. But but a week later, I got an email from someone, Max Krusen. But to be honest, I knew Freedom Fest, but I didn't know his name.

I didn't know who he is.

[Speaker 2] (41:57 - 42:01)

Mark's his son, right? Didn't his father start Mark and Hannah?

[Speaker 1] (42:04 - 44:40)

I don't know. But but, you know, the funny stories, then this Mark Krusen asked me, will you go to Freedom Fest? And they are unfortunately not.

I got no invitation. And but I didn't know who he is. Then he said, maybe I could do something for for you.

And later on, I Googled him and learned, oh, he's the organizer of the Freedom Fest. And then he said, oh, unfortunately, our schedule now for lectures is is all complete. It's full.

But I have an idea. I make the introduction at Freedom Fest and it's for 45 hours. But I will give you half of the time so you can speak after me at the second speaker.

And of course, it's it was a great honor for me. So last year I was directly after Max Krusen. And so I admire him.

It's great what he did there with his Freedom Fest. I would like to do something in Europe. It's not easy because I think his secret is that he combines it with his investment thing, because I think most of the sponsors who give you need always also people to give the money.

You can't get it only from from the tickets. I think it was a great idea to combine it with this investment thing. And he combined it also with this and what what his great wife does with this film festival, this film festival.

So it's great. I look very much forward to the Freedom Fest. I can recommend everyone to go there.

And I look very much forward to to meet you there. I showed in my book with real world examples that the only way to escape poverty is capitalism. And and I had another interview a few weeks ago with a journalist in the United States.

And he asked me, he said, yes, I read the book and I found it very convincing. But do you think you can convince anti-capitalists with this book? And I said, no, I don't think so.

And he said, why? Why do you write a book when you don't believe you can convince other people? I said, because I know they will not buy the book.

They will not read the book. I see if I post it on Twitter, I got comments from leftists, from anti-capitalists. This is all shit.

This is all lie. It's not true. And then I ask only two words or three words.

Have you read the book? No, I would never read a book like this. So they prefer to read book number thirty five.

Why capitalism is evil. For example, the new book from Bernie Sanders.

[Speaker 2] (44:40 - 45:45)

It's OK to be angry that he sells that he sells for a dollar amount. Yes, yes. It's a book called Why Capitalism is Evil.

And he's selling it. Does does he not get the irony there? Yes.

So well, this is a funny thing to your point, right? We're sitting here. You've got about a 20 percent cult on the left in America.

It's about a 20 percent cult on the left and a 20 percent cult on the right. Like strong cult. We're talking these people are going to do their thing in their little bubble.

That gives about 60 percent of people. Then the variance goes. And then you've got about 30, a good 30 percent right smack dab in that middle.

I think this type of message reaches these people. What I've seen in America is this uptick through like Dave Smith and through Dr. Recktenwald, through Clint Russell, through all these these new libertarian voices that are coming up through this technology we call podcasting. We're seeing a very large uptick in this freedom, liberty, more self-sustaining, breaking away from being indebted to others, you know, being a slave to others through debt.

[Speaker 1] (45:46 - 47:13)

And, you know, when I write my books, I write it that people like you, like people in your audience, libertarians, they should buy the book because I provide you with all the facts, all the figures. I think most of the people don't know much about the history of Poland or the history of the history of Vietnam. And they don't know all the studies about why development aid does not work.

Or this other book for me, I can strongly recommend In Defense of Capitalism. I have 10 chapters and I refute all of this myth. Chapter after chapter, for example, chapter one, capitalism is to blame for hunger and poverty.

Chapter two, capitalism is to blame for inequality. Capitalism is to blame for climate change, environmental destruction. Capitalism is to blame for monopolies.

Capitalism is to blame for wars. Capitalism is to blame for fascism. I have these 10 chapters.

And for this book, I read 360 books and scientific papers and did my own research. And of course, not everyone is prepared to at the time to read 360 books. But I did it for you.

And you find it all in this book. And this is like a weapon maybe for students if they are on the university, if they have a discussion. And you need facts.

You need facts because the facts are on our side. But you have to know them.

[Speaker 2] (47:15 - 47:50)

Absolutely. Now, Rainer, before we go, first of all, thank you so much for sharing your time. What I'm finding is if I ask the right people or if I just reach out to people who I find have interesting something interesting to say, I find how beautifully collaborative we become.

You've exchanged your you've given your time to me and I'm grateful for your valuable time to our libertarian friends in America. I just have to ask before we go, what are your thoughts about the Fed? The Fed, the Fed, the United States, the Fed, the printing of money.

[Speaker 1] (47:51 - 48:38)

Oh, the Fed. Yes, of course. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Crazy. What they did, you know, a disaster.

They caused all these problems. I remember when there was a new economy bubble in the end of the 90s, the new economy bubble. And then as a result, when the stock market came down in 2000, they started to lower taxes, lower taxes, printing money.

And what did they do? They created the next big bubble, the house price bubble. This was caused by the Fed and also by this crazy, you know, politics that who forced financial institutions to give loans to people who.

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (48:39 - 48:41)

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Yes.

[Speaker 1] (48:41 - 48:44)

Who should never buy any apartment, a house because.

[Speaker 2] (48:44 - 48:47)

Who should buy the Clintons, by the way. The Clintons pushed that.

[Speaker 1] (48:48 - 49:00)

They wanted every from minorities. It's so important they should have a house, but they harmed the minorities because these were people who lost all their money. So good intentions, maybe, but bad results.

So don't judge.

[Speaker 2] (49:00 - 49:01)

The road to hell, right?

[Speaker 1] (49:01 - 49:02)

Don't.

[Speaker 2] (49:02 - 49:03)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Speaker 1] (49:03 - 50:24)

All their intentions judge them on their results. So and then they caused the next bubble. And of course, we know what happened.

It burst and it caused the biggest financial crisis. And as the therapy against it, they printed even more money and even more debt. And too big to fail.

Come on, Reiner, too big to fail. And they think then now, you know, it's the same. Imagine someone depends on drugs, maybe on heroin, and he's shaking and then you give him another shot.

Stop shaking. Oh, great. He's healthy now.

He's healthy. Or alcoholic, you know, who's exactly give him another whiskey. Oh, stop shaking.

He's healthy. And then he starts again. Shake.

Give him much more whiskey. Oh, he's again healthy. No, he's not healthy.

And and this is the big problem. Now I saw it myself. Now they had to increase.

Now they caused inflation. Of course, this is what they did. And to fight inflation, what what did they have to do?

The increase in their interest rates. But what was the effect? I saw it myself.

Now a crisis. It's in the evaluation of commercial real estate.

[Speaker 2] (50:24 - 50:40)

For example, perhaps you and I can get together. I know a lot of Phoenix properties are about to go kaput here in a second. They're about to all go belly up.

It's it's going to pop again, but I think it's going to be commercial this time in America. Yes, it's the malls and all the office spaces and everything.

[Speaker 1] (50:41 - 51:35)

Because I'm invested in a commercial real estate fund who's focused especially on our retail and office. And it was a very great fund. And I know also the fund manager.

But then when at the same time the interest rates rose and then the multiplier, so-called multipliers came down and at the same time as effect of the coronavirus policies, more people started with home office and the and the rents came down. And the combination of both of these effects lead to a devaluation. So you see, one thing leads to the other and always if you try to fix it, they cause new problems.

And this is what I think about the Fed. That yes, this is what absolutely.

[Speaker 2] (51:36 - 51:46)

Yeah, well, what I'm hearing from you, sir, what I'm hearing from you is and the Fed, that's what I'm hearing. That's all I need to know. I'm putting that for Twitter.

Don't worry, we got you covered.

[Speaker 1] (51:46 - 52:15)

Yes. And this is also what what Javier Millet said for Argentina. Of course, it's not possible from one day to the next.

But sooner or later you have to get rid of them because they caused a lot of these a lot of these problems. If you see now the the the debt, it was even it was very high before Obama. But everyone made it bigger.

Obama made it bigger. Trump also made it bigger.

[Speaker 2] (52:16 - 52:35)

Joe Biden made it bigger. It was COVID that exacerbated it, for sure. I mean, we are now at one trillion dollars in debt per year.

We're talking about adding one trillion dollars in debt. I'm sorry, one trillion dollars in interest per year. And we're adding a trillion dollars to our debt every hundred days.

Reiner.

[Speaker 1] (52:35 - 53:17)

Yes. And this is, you know, without improving anything. OK, I admit also in the time of Ronald Reagan, the debt increased, but for good purpose, because this was necessary at this time because it was one mean that the Soviet Union collapsed.

So this was what what Ronald Reagan did. And he did a lot of other good things. He he reduced the taxes and from 70 percent to 28 percent and all these things.

But but I can't see any good things that showed Joe Biden did absolutely nothing.

[Speaker 2] (53:18 - 53:39)

OK, well, I'm more concerned about the the war. I'm going to be honest. War is lack of prosperity for everyone, in my opinion.

And we've pushed on multiple fronts. We're looking at three fronts that we're looking, including Taiwan. And those are unsustainable for America in the condition that we're in now.

It's just unsustainable financially.

[Speaker 1] (53:40 - 53:44)

OK, well, it's great to meet you. Pleasure to meet you.

[Speaker 2] (53:44 - 53:58)

Very nice to meet you. Rainer, Rainer Zittelman, thank you so much for joining me. Not conscious.

Everybody go to Freedom Fest dot com. Conscious 50 for $50 off. What day are you speaking, Rainer?

If you if you if you know, do you know what day you'll be?

[Speaker 1] (53:58 - 54:07)

Yes, I think it starts on Wednesday evening. I speak I think I have two or three sessions started on Thursday, but I don't know exactly right now.

[Speaker 2] (54:07 - 54:35)

Excellent.