Bobby Azarian, author of ‘The Romance of Reality’

Mark Welcomes Bobby Azarian, author of ‘The Romance of Reality’. We discuss Howard Bloom, conspiracies, consciousness, religion, philosophy, theism, base reality, simulation theory & turtles, turtles, turtles, all the way down. This week has been the most amazing of my entire life, intellectually. Thanks to those I met & those with whom I plan to have future conversations.
Road to Omega Substack: https://roadtoomega.substack.com/
X: @BobbyAzarian
Outro: ”Goodnight, Sweetheart, Goodnight” – This score is in public domain and may be freely downloaded, printed, and performed. The sound file may be downloaded for personal use. For more information see https://lincolnlibraries.org/polley-music-library/

Transcript:

(0:00) Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Knocked conscious today. I had the absolute pleasure of speaking with Bobby Azarian (0:07) He’s the author of the romance of reality. It was an amazing conversation (0:13) We spoke about myriad topics amazing discussion (0:17) We went a little woo, but we went a little woo.So I hope you enjoy it. Here it is (0:24) Oh my gosh, it was so much fun. My head’s still buzzing.Enjoy it. Bye (0:28) Well, no, well very nice to meet you thank you so much for gifting your time man, yeah my play a lot of talk (0:36) Yeah, I mean it’s all okay (0:41) The world’s crazy (0:42) Yeah, I’d love to start a little bit back to your Rogan episode if I may sure because you mentioned a person (0:52) Whom I came across (0:54) Totally differently and I think this is where synchronicity and everything that we’re gonna talk about kind of blends in right the reason we’re all connected (1:02) you mentioned Howard Bloom and (1:05) I (1:06) Met Howard through I’ve not met him personally yet (1:09) But I’ve had about five or six podcasts now with Howard from Palestine to science to Michael Jackson (1:15) All the running the entire gamut and I love that. Yeah, I was enjoying this (1:22) Right before our conversation (1:24) Checking those out.Yeah (1:26) Yeah, so tell me a little bit about your your connection with him (1:29) If I may and and then we’ll certainly get into everything that you have to offer. Yeah, Howard’s awesome, isn’t he? (1:37) He really is (1:38) So I have a friend named Justin and we’ve been friends for a couple decades (1:46) Kind of science and philosophy buddies and we have a little group (1:51) We met on a message board back like in probably (1:55) 2003 on myspace way before (1:59) Facebook and myspace had these cool groups like these kind of (2:02) group discussions, which was kind of like a reddit I guess of that age and (2:09) Somewhere called like the edge of knowledge. I think that’s the one we met met on and (2:15) Yeah, so while I was writing the book he was like this reminds me some of the stuff you’re saying reminds me of this book (2:21) The Lucifer principle by Howard Bloom and it’s this kind of big history (2:27) Cosmic evolution book and I hadn’t heard of him (2:31) and then I checked the book out and the book was really popular and I was reading a lot of it and (2:37) I was like wow this I got to meet this guy because um, we seem to be on the same (2:44) Path towards (2:46) Cosmic truth, I guess you could call it (2:49) and (2:49) So I reached out to him when the book was done (2:52) asking him for a blurb and he was nice enough to to read it and (2:58) And to give a blurb for the book and I just started learning more about him (3:02) I started coming to his he has the Howard Bloom Institute and they have these meetings these weekly meetings (3:07) They go to those that’s gonna be a part of that.Yeah. Yeah, it’s a fun group and there’s great discussions one time we filmed (3:16) little question answer thing and I love Howard because he’s this cosmic philosopher for anyone out there who hasn’t (3:23) Read his books once called the Lucifer principle once called the God problem. He has one coming out called the sexual cosmos (3:30) I think it’s the name (3:32) And it is really really excited.Yeah. Yeah, so (3:36) I’ve looked at it and (3:38) it’s very similar to the book I’m working on right now and (3:43) He’s also interesting because he was the publicist for Michael Jackson (3:49) Prince like Bob Marley David Bowie (3:53) Do you see the guys in the background Billy Joel Bob Marley? (3:57) Right, yeah, it’s great everybody Michael Jackson and me (4:01) Einstein Michael Jackson to me was (4:03) And that’s how I actually came across was I actually interviewed Michael Jackson’s nephew Taj Jackson (4:08) Oh, that’s cool out about the shenanigans around Michael and I watched leaving Neverland on HBO (4:15) And I was very compelled to believe that and then I saw a counter (4:21) Documentary that basically debunks all of it and it’s very interesting interesting. So it’s hard to get to the truth (4:27) And what’s interesting is watching the overlay of like a Rupert Murdoch who’s in power (4:33) Yeah laying over that story.For example in 1995 AJ Benza had testified (4:38) That Howard there was going to be a Harvey Weinstein story (4:43) Allegation in 1995 20 years prior. That’s interesting to the actual him getting caught, right? (4:50) So AJ Benza was paid by by Harvey Weinstein to put a Michael Jackson article in instead (4:56) And he testified to that (4:58) Oh, so it was just kind of a random filler article like just to get that story out (5:03) It was a lie, right and it was to cover up Weinstein for 20 more years and it’s on (5:09) I mean, it’s just weird how it all comes together. But once again, I think this speaks to the synchronicity of you and I connecting (5:16) yeah, I’ve been really interested in like (5:21) Analyzing different conspiracy theories and (5:23) Because if you take like if you think about epistemology (5:28) which is like the study of knowledge and you start thinking about like the world in terms of we have a (5:34) Statistical model of the world encoded in our mind and we’re trying to get at certainty, but there’s always uncertainty (5:39) There’s definitely gonna be things that we don’t know about.So the question is how much do we not know? (5:46) Like how transparent is the world? Are we seeing it as it is? (5:49) Are these there, you know, we so we know that there are definitely things that we don’t know about (5:55) but the question is how much and (5:58) I’ve been interested in stories about (6:02) Conspiracy theories about Michael Jackson’s death being (6:07) intentional and a way to silence him because he was being very critical as was Prince about (6:15) The way the music industry is run and the way artists basically aren’t (6:20) Treated right and they’re not giving their fair share and that when someone dies all that royalty money (6:26) goes to the the labels and (6:30) so with the the wake of the in the wake of the the Puff Daddy scandal (6:35) We actually do you know that connection with Puff Daddy? (6:38) well, I mean I was gonna I was gonna say all those people up top like (6:45) Jimmy Iovine and (6:48) Jay-z’s mentor Lior Cohen, I think is his name and (6:54) Like there’s a few people at the top and they’ve been aware of lots of (6:59) Nefarious stuff going on in the music industry and you can’t help but wonder (7:05) How like what’s been orchestrated like Tupac and Biggie? I mean their deaths like it’s you know (7:13) They’re saying that Puff might get charged for for the Tupac murder, right? Yeah (7:19) And so maybe the name has been (7:22) killing people in (7:24) collecting royalty money (7:27) Yeah, so I love I (7:30) Think you and I I mean that might be a start of something great because I actually delve into conspiracy theories as well from (7:35) the from both the debunking side and just the intrigue of what what what’s the (7:39) Psychology that makes someone believe something or trust something (7:42) I think they’re so interesting and I’ve I’ve written articles from the you know, the perspective of neuroscientists (7:50) who does cognitive psychology research like (7:53) Websites have been interested in like oh, you know right about (7:56) You know what’s going on right now cover what’s in the news? (8:00) so (8:01) conspiracy theory (8:02) kind of that topic like with (8:06) When Trump was in office and there was the Q stuff going on (8:09) I had to look into that to write the article (8:13) But when you go down that rabbit hole and it’s interesting when you’re a rational principled (8:18) and I’d say Bayesian thinker and that word just means you look at all options and you actually (8:26) map out like the evidence for all of the theories and then you try to (8:32) Come to some conclusion (8:33) based on what you know, but you actually go through the process of giving every theory the benefit of the doubt during the (8:42) Evidence collection part you can call it epistemic foraging like you’re searching for for bits of knowledge. And when you do that (8:51) It may not turn out that the conspiracy theory is true (8:54) But you find out a lot of stuff in the process about other things maybe about that and you realize (9:00) Our society has this massive blind spot because basically (9:06) The word conspiracy theory has rather than being a theory about a potential (9:13) Conspiracy that’s a crime which we know happens (9:17) It’s become a word meaning a theory that’s fake (9:22) When there’s no way that was actually done by the deep state. They actually planted that as a fake thing (9:27) They made they made it like the woo word like woke they made it like made it made it toxic (9:32) Anybody anybody in power who doesn’t want to be questioned? (9:37) about what they’re doing in secrecy is (9:40) going to benefit (9:42) from (9:42) having the word conspiracy theory have this blanket definition where it just means (9:49) ridiculous things and (9:51) It’s it’s really stupid for anyone to believe that you know (9:56) Let’s say poor people go to prison all the time for organized crime.We know crimes like a big part of reality (10:03) To think the government is by the way, it’s basically organized crime (10:06) Well, I was gonna say to think that elites are people in you know, higher status people (10:13) wealthy America doesn’t (10:16) Participate in organized crime that they’re all angels (10:20) Law-abiding citizens and only the unwealthy people in the world are the bad people. That’s pretty messed up bias thinking so (10:28) there’s a lot we don’t know about but we have to be really careful at the same time because if we’re wrong it can (10:35) Have really bad consequences for people’s lives (10:39) But we should that’s where the Bayesian comes in, right? (10:42) Exactly to eliminate we have to eliminate those probabilistic outcomes (10:47) Yeah, and I’m too and and it’s interesting to that extent. It’s kind of like the world’s an equation.Everything’s an equation, right and the more (10:55) Fine-tuned we can get the beginning of that equation the more fine-tuned the answer becomes (11:01) so the more (11:02) accurate data getting in we can get to from point one to point zero one to point zero zero one and (11:07) Just fine-tune it more and more to get a more accurate (11:09) Yeah, exactly so the way I like to think about it is that we have this (11:16) Our mind is a mental model (11:19) it’s a mental map of the world and there’s all this uncertainty in the model because there are all these things we don’t know and (11:26) the process of living and learning is filling in (11:32) the details of that model filling in the gaps and (11:35) Reducing your uncertainty and the more you can reduce your uncertainty or ignorance about the world (11:41) The better you can navigate it and the more causal power you have the more power you have to influence the world (11:49) But just the more knowledge you have in general (11:52) Usually the more successful you’re going to be in life (11:55) So we always want to be doing I dropped that kind of big word, but I think it’s a good one epistemic foraging (12:01) It’s basically just like I love it knowledge all the time (12:04) We need to do this and (12:07) In today’s age like we we have to do this with everything. You have to be curious (12:12) When a president when an assassination attempt happens on a president no matter who it is, no matter which side they’re on (12:20) Yeah, I just like you have to know I was I was in Las Vegas at Freedom Fest when Robert F (12:27) Kennedy just spoke the night before (12:29) And I actually talk with you about I want to talk to you about the attempt because we have some woo things to talk (12:35) down the road (12:38) Like it’s crazy because (12:40) You you wouldn’t you’ve just recently spoken with me (12:43) You can tell him I can tell I mean you can tell that I am a lucid thinking thoughtful individual (12:48) But I’ve had experiences that I’m trying to understand. So I hope we can talk about I love that (12:53) That’s a point and then I’d love to and then I’d love to get in just a little synopsis of romance of reality (12:58) And then maybe touch, you know on the world view part and your and your new book and stuff like that (13:03) But please finish your point, but I just wanted to interject there.We were all at Freedom Fest (13:07) I’m talking about we had very we had Steve Forbes there. We had Brett Weinstein and Michael Schellenberger (13:12) I spoke with for 15 minutes and this news comes across about the assassination attempt and (13:17) Everybody’s buzzing about it. I mean we’re talking about political thinkers here and we’re all talking about a date, you know the last two days (13:23) So it’s been amazing (13:24) Back (13:27) The way (13:28) first all of us libertarians think football flag like that, so (13:32) And that’s a bias too (13:34) But I mean you have to consider it is but we don’t know and in the fact that I didn’t I didn’t you didn’t roll it (13:39) Out make that accusation.I asked the question, right? I didn’t make you (13:45) Question and when people tell you you can’t something’s fishy there (13:53) Absolutely, so it’s not the way you figure it out isn’t so much it’s it’s not just looking at the evidence (13:59) It’s also when you make a claim like that looking at the response and making predictions saying, okay (14:04) Let’s say I say this. How are they going to respond? What would be the typical response if? (14:11) This is true. What would be the typical spot response if it’s not true? (14:16) What would be the typical response (14:18) If they don’t want us to know whether it’s true or not true and (14:23) Yeah, there’s no transparency right now, it’s just a really bad state of affairs and (14:29) Speaking of RFK.It’s messed up that he doesn’t have Secret Service. That is really strange and (14:35) It is but let’s let’s see how great they did. Look out.Look how great a bang-up job they did (14:39) You know, I met the actual personal detail for RFK over at Freedom Fest (14:43) I trust those men and way more with my life than I do any stranger from some political ideology or some deep state (14:49) That’s protecting me. I (14:51) Bet there. Yeah, I bet they’re great.But um, they were awesome. He has to pay for that out-of-pocket too, right? (14:58) Right. Yeah, I mean, I’m not saying that I mean he should have it funded for (15:02) He’s got the best guys.Yeah, right the Secret Service isn’t exact (15:05) I’m not going to any of the any organization from the government anymore to looking for answers. You know what I mean? (15:11) I’m trying to become a lot more self-reliant (15:13) yeah, and in the whole investigation being done about the assassination attempt should be like an (15:19) Open thing it should be a cross department thing and it should be like a publicly transparent thing (15:26) But it’s not and until it’s not people are gonna have conspiracy theories and they can’t be blamed (15:33) Because people aren’t being transparent want to get rid of conspiracy theories make everything transparent (15:39) Right, I mean Biden’s it says let the FBI do their job. Are you kidding me? (15:45) Terrorist two years ago.Yeah, I called parents terrorists two years ago and he wants us to trust them with the information they get (15:52) yeah, I mean I (15:55) Gotta I gotta admit. I don’t know how much we can trust (16:00) You know our government and our agencies I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for most things but um, (16:07) I should you should I don’t know if we should that may be too generous. I don’t know.I don’t I mean, yeah (16:13) I mean, that’s for the other side of it. I’m a kind I’m a kind disagreeable person (16:18) You know what? I mean? Like yeah, I’m on the side definitely leaning more on the side of (16:23) 90% of it is balderdash (16:26) Yeah, but I still want to be compassionate because I do want to allow them to become transparent, right? (16:33) So I don’t know every at every angle (16:37) Yeah (16:40) but so (16:43) We have to to recognize the fact that (16:48) They’re mortal enemies now and a lot of people are gonna lose their jobs if Trump becomes president that are in those organizations and (16:58) Trump’s probably gonna be out for revenge at some point even if that’s why he named the vice president right away (17:04) That’s why he named it. But JD Vance is the vice president (17:07) Yeah, I that’s something.Yeah, I saw that and I’ve been here (17:11) Yeah, I don’t know much about him. So (17:15) Yeah, I need to learn more like (17:19) This strategy. Yeah, you can fill me in but um a (17:24) Lot of people (17:26) their livelihoods at stake and so there is a natural motivation to (17:34) Do whatever they can to keep Trump out of office (17:36) And that’s the same thing with keeping Biden in office because the people that are keeping Biden in office (17:41) That’s it.That’s his meal. That’s their meal ticket (17:43) Yeah, and and what if he goes out then they get replaced because that’s how you do it (17:48) Administrations get replaced so they don’t want to lose their jobs either and once people are in a self (17:53) Preservation mode then you can’t trust them because they’re doing what they have capable of doing almost what’s biology biological, too (18:01) I mean, they’re gonna do what’s is if everything’s on the line (18:06) It’s their life. Like yeah, we don’t know so I don’t want to speculate too much.But um (18:12) No, I mean the point is we have to speculate like I don’t want to write. That’s the thing (18:17) You gotta you gotta ask all questions. Yeah you and they need to be trained.I don’t want to speculate conspiracy (18:22) I want to speculate everything. You know what I mean to be yeah (18:28) Yeah, exactly so (18:31) that that should always be allowed because when people say don’t ask questions I (18:37) Yeah, that’s that’s when you have to ask questions. That’s when you have to ask questions.Yeah (18:42) So, thank you for sharing that (18:44) I think we might have a future about (18:45) Conspiracies because I actually do delve in some in my podcast and I’d love to talk about those. I would love in the future (18:50) Yeah (18:52) One project I’ve had in mind is kind of taking a Bayesian approach to the different conspiracy theories (18:57) Let’s say you take the top 10 or top 20. It’s kind of like a Mythbusters type show where you’re we’re but I would love that (19:03) But in the process of trying to bust them you’re gonna find out that okay when you look at the evidence (19:11) Yeah, actually the true stupid people are the ones believing the narrative one (19:16) I saw that got me interested recently was the the death of Soundgarden’s Chris Cornell (19:21) You know a lot of people die and I don’t question it Matthew Perry for example from front (19:27) Like I kind of saw that coming (19:28) But if you if you look into the details of Chris Cornell’s death, it is super sketchy nothing makes sense (19:36) So there’s a lot I would love to talk about that one because I’m a huge (19:40) Fan and I just missed him in Phoenix and I didn’t go see him (19:43) And I heard the night this is interesting because I do I actually did a podcast about suicide (19:48) I lost a good friend to suicide at 27 and some and actually that has a woo component to once again (19:55) Probably, you know either a conversation for another day or later down the road, but (20:00) Chris Cornell and the guy from Lincoln Park (20:02) They were very troubled but I heard that Chris Cornell was super happy the day that he did it and I’ve heard (20:08) Stories of people who commit suicide when they’ve made that decision that it’s they feel free (20:14) And I found that to be one of the interesting counters to possibly what you were saying, but I would love to talk about it.Yeah (20:22) Yeah, who knows? (20:24) So, yeah, and you will probably never get full certainty on that (20:28) But um, some of the details are really interesting when you look into (20:32) For example with suicides, there’s not usually like blood splattered around the room and stuff (20:36) There there were strange injuries like on the back of his head lots of stuff. Well, let’s go (20:42) Let’s go into the Clintons. For example, come on, how many you know (20:45) Foster (20:46) I’m (20:48) Just twice I’m almost there to talk about that stuff.I know (20:55) Emailing me for the next podcast and you won’t get a response and you’ll know why but um, yeah (21:02) Hours and rainbows and sprinkles if you want, I will I will say the journalists that reported on (21:09) the meeting between (21:10) The Clintons and the Attorney General that happened right before the election that everybody found out about and probably cost him (21:17) Yeah that guy (21:21) Committed suicide (21:23) We can talk about he wrote a book a marriage super happy. He had no one (21:27) He left Phoenix to go back to Alabama I know him because he did traffic in my town in Phoenix really (21:34) I know yeah, cuz it was on in Sky Harbor where he broke that news (21:39) Yeah, he’s a University of Alabama alumnus, yeah, yeah, I just look Chris Chris Simon Chris shield Chris something (21:46) Yeah, I just learned about that (21:49) Recently, but then we need to talk because I actually have the whole lowdown on that. No, no joke (21:55) yeah, that’d be interesting so (21:58) There’s some yeah in this (22:01) hypothetical project of (22:03) Bayesian (22:05) conspiracy theory busting (22:07) Busters, um (22:09) There’s some I probably won’t touch because I don’t want to die (22:13) Yeah, I I know a few as well (22:17) But I think I’m ready to do it.Let’s go. Let’s just you know, better to burn out than fade away, right? (22:27) Bobby Azarian did not say anything your secrets are safe with me (22:35) We got we got to go back to romance and reality because this is really where it launched (22:38) So tell me a little bit about a synopsis that for me and I do have an analogy (22:44) I hope it’s an accurate analogy and we can go from there (22:48) Okay. Do you want to give the analogy you don’t me to give so so you spoke of the emergent properties? (22:54) So the way the best analogy I use is (22:57) Temperature is only the result of molecules banging together faster and faster more and more (23:02) It’s it emerges out of that process, it’s not a thing (23:06) It’s the reverse causal, right? So it’s a bottom line not a top-down (23:12) Yeah, kind of like in touting.It’s an emergent collective property of a system (23:17) It’s yeah, right and we we see (23:21) Emergence being more bottom up in that way (23:23) Not top-down yet our whole lives (23:26) We live top-down from the hierarchy from the father from God from all these different hierarchies (23:33) we always seem to (23:35) Perceive top-down and I love that you perceive bottom-up because with my experiences (23:40) I’m starting to find and align with your ideas on that. I’d love for you to share a little bit about all that (23:47) Yes, so (23:48) The romance of reality is a book that tries to explain a lot of the biggest (23:56) Scientific mysteries that are most interesting to us as humans. So like the origin of life (24:03) What’s consciousness house consciousness created and what’s the ultimate fate fate of life? What’s the ultimate fate of the universe? (24:11) And it argues that we have the picture (24:16) completely wrong right now we have a (24:19) scientific framework (24:21) That’s that’s known as the the reductionist (24:25) framework that (24:27) Implicit in this view is the idea that the universe is just this kind of accidental (24:33) machine like system (24:35) and what I’m saying is (24:38) It’s a system that’s evolving and that evolutionary process (24:43) Isn’t something completely random.It’s a learning process. It’s a process of knowledge creation and (24:49) The evolutionary process is not just (24:52) The biological process will we’re familiar with but it’s a cosmic evolutionary process where nature’s simplest components are (25:01) assembling themselves (25:03) into increasingly complex (25:05) structures and configurations and that leads to life and (25:10) The system that we call life on this planet is actually this integrated network of all these (25:18) Organisms that are these (25:20) agents that (25:22) Form these larger collectives and larger intelligent networks. So basically the biosphere is like a distributed (25:29) intelligence on the planet Earth and (25:32) Use an analogy there.We have the mushroom mycelia right with the roots in the ground (25:37) For example with trees between yes their information and share (25:41) resources and things like that (25:43) Yeah, so life is just interconnected in all these different ways and you see it with (25:48) plant life and (25:50) Trees are an interesting example because there’s all this (25:54) intelligence in like the root system and (25:58) There’s it’s almost a physical (26:01) Personification of or a characterization of the energy that we’re talking about in the consciousness realm (26:07) Yeah, it’s it’s similar because there’s information processing going on it’s like a mind a (26:15) distributed mind (26:17) emerges from those those networks and (26:21) this the (26:24) Human civilization (26:26) connected by all of our communication technology (26:28) You could see that as forming the global brain of the the super organism. That’s the biosphere because we’re analogous (26:36) to neurons where (26:39) The most complex species and we do all this information processing. So we’ve formed something like the global brain (26:45) So you have this planetary intelligence? (26:47) That’s this these interconnected ecosystems (26:52) and they all work together to keep the (26:54) the the temperature and (26:57) the gas composition of the atmosphere in a range that’s friendly for (27:03) complex life and for the continued persistence and (27:07) Continual development of life really the continual progress of life as a whole towards higher complexity (27:14) Not every species is getting more complex (27:16) The system as a whole is getting more complex and the most complex species is getting more (27:21) Complex and what I argue in the book is that the network of life (27:27) It’s all these what are called complex adaptive systems.So it’s these systems that are (27:34) Continually learning (27:36) from their environment and (27:39) Exchanging information and this whole system is becoming increasingly (27:44) resilient (27:46) So it’s better able to deal with (27:50) catastrophe and that (27:53) Life is basically it learns (27:57) it’s (27:59) Basically nature is presenting life with all of these existential challenges and it’s encoding the solutions (28:06) To the problems of survival and through this process (28:10) It’s gaining knowledge and it’s becoming increasingly resilient. And so what the book argues is that you can’t stop this process (28:20) It’s constantly (28:23) Life is constantly adapting and evolving (28:26) To where it just gains more causal power over nature. It’s better able to (28:31) Manipulate nature it becomes harder to kill if an asteroids coming toward the planet (28:37) With our technology now and it threatens all of intelligent life (28:42) We can destroy that with our technology (28:46) If we had to and so basically it’s this self-correcting (28:52) system that (28:54) slowly, but at an increasing rate (28:57) Starts to expand through the universe and then it’s an interconnected (29:02) system of intelligent agents because they’re in contact through communication technology (29:07) And so the evolutionary process is building a distributed intelligence that will someday (29:14) Be at this at the cosmic scale.And so this represents a process of the universe organizing itself (29:20) so the universe is a self organizing system in this view and it’s becoming more self-aware through the emergence of (29:27) Conscious organisms and in those conscious organisms form this ever-expanding network. That is this intelligence? (29:35) that’s basically taking in all of the (29:39) Inanimate matter in the world and it’s integrating it into its computational network (29:43) So the universe is in this process of being transformed into one cosmic (29:50) entity one cosmic intelligence and (29:52) And (29:54) The French philosopher and paleontologist and evolutionary theorist from he wrote a book in like 1940 called the phenomenon of man (30:02) He had this theory of evolution being progressive and going towards what he called the Omega point (30:08) So yeah, it’s just the idea that the universe is a self organizing system (30:13) Which doesn’t sound that radical and a lot of scientists would say I think it’s fair to characterize it that way or it could be (30:22) But when you push it to its (30:23) Logical conclusions, then everything is on this trajectory towards an Omega point and the evolutionary process is essentially building God (30:31) It’s building this cosmic intelligence that we’re all gonna be part of all the conscious agents that are still alive when this is constructed (30:38) Yeah, that is amazing. So so on that I (30:43) Tend to think that we are adapted to the environment more the environment adapted to us, but (30:49) Only initially right and then as the consciousness between things grows (30:54) Then it becomes more symbiotic back and forth because it kind of gets feedback from us, right? (30:59) But it doesn’t initially know it just creates an environment kind of like physics like the gravity all the laws of our nature natural world (31:07) So it’s interesting because we look at fractals and pattern and it looks like all these patterns are (31:13) Starting to emerge at the micro level and at the macro level almost exactly like these fractals (31:19) And they kind of fit whatever the laws of this universe tend to be (31:24) Are you any? (31:25) Yes, so the the whole process of self-organization that I described it’s like a growing fractal pattern (31:33) Because basically it has these systems that are these nested systems.So people have called it like a (31:41) Matryoshka cosmology those Russian t-dolls that stack inside each other (31:45) So you could think that think of the cosmic evolutionary process as nature’s simplest components like fundamental (31:53) Elementary particles subatomic particles coming together to make atoms which come together to make molecules which come together to make organisms which come together to make (32:01) Ecosystems and societies which come together and make this planetary (32:05) Superorganism in that biosphere extended extends itself into the cosmos through intelligence to intelligent life (32:12) Expanding and it’s just one growing network, but you’re right (32:15) It’s this process where you have the universe is basically this dynamical system (32:20) And there’s this tendency towards order and a tendency towards disorder associated with the second law of thermodynamics (32:26) And there’s a constant interplay between those two tendencies and that’s what creates complexity (32:33) So it’s kind of an Eastern philosophy like yin-yang type of relationship and the Western philosopher Hegel talked about this dialectical dynamic (32:41) It’s how cultural evolution happens to you get an idea or a worldview and then the opposite worldview emerges (32:48) That’s why there’s always political polarization (32:50) But then there’s eventually a synthesis of those worldviews into something that is greater (32:58) And basically takes the best elements from both sides. But yeah, there’s this fundamental interplay between (33:04) life and its environment and basically living organisms have to (33:12) Uh (33:13) Continue this struggle for existence. They they have to fight (33:18) To stay alive in a world that tends towards disorder, but the tending toward disorder is only half the story (33:25) Life lives up to that challenge (33:27) It’s always encoding the solutions that it finds to that survival problem.And that’s what propels progress and so (33:38) The (33:38) living network is always expanding and it’s basically interacting with its environment and the environment becomes an extension of the living network and (33:47) Basically life is finding this harmony with the universe around it (33:53) And the whole process is kind of this ratchet that ratchets up complexity (33:59) through these different dynamics the dialectical dynamic and the Darwinian dynamic and (34:04) So you can explain exactly (34:07) how (34:09) Nature is becoming more conscious through life. You can explain all the mechanisms you can explain how (34:17) Agents conscious agents are beings that have to model the world. They have to create a representation of the world and then (34:26) They that basically that model needs to constantly be (34:31) Progressing and being updated for the agents to be able to (34:36) Counter this tendency towards disorder to be able to continue to persist in the world and then you get a really interesting story (34:44) Where little bits of the universe which we call organisms because when you break organisms down they’re made of the same (34:51) You know fundamental (34:54) atoms that the rest of the universe is made of (34:58) You get these (35:00) organisms that are basically (35:02) the self-aware (35:05) Manifestations of the inanimate world and so you get a world that’s growing more alive and conscious (35:12) Through intelligent agents and then you start to see us as having a cosmic responsibility (35:17) We’re actually the stewards of this self-organization process.So our (35:23) progression is (35:25) nature’s progression towards a self-aware state and (35:29) As we are at least as we know the highest consciousness on this earth (35:35) That’s what gives us that responsibility of being stewards of that consciousness or to to expand it exact and grow that (35:42) Is that kind of what you’re saying as well? (35:44) Yeah, the our cosmic purpose is waking up the universe and we’re part of this intelligent network. That is the biosphere (35:50) But that’s just the beginning of the process. So (35:54) progress is going to (35:57) Basically (36:00) But here’s the interesting thing (36:02) I’m saying progress is inevitable like this is going to happen, but it doesn’t happen without us trying (36:08) We have to exercise right we are free will but right we end up doing that at some point (36:15) Because it’s the optimal strategy for survival.So what life needs to do to survive (36:23) Also helps (36:25) Nature wake up, but it’s this kind of unconscious process that (36:31) At first there’s not really a consciousness to it in the way that you know, we’re conscious beings (36:38) It’s more of an unconscious sort of computational process the way a eyes can (36:43) Do computation and seem intelligent without actually having a conscious experience (36:49) But then when humans arise and we realize our role in this process then we start to guide the evolutionary process (36:58) Yeah, so so to that point I look I look at thing people like Jordan Peterson with chaos and order (37:04) You have you have a certain percentage that must be order because that is what ties us to the foundation of structure (37:11) That is what keeps us alive. That is what’s worked (37:15) That’s what’s conservative is and then you’ve got that outlying (37:19) Percentage that is once again within that Overton window of range because if it’s too much (37:24) Ethereal we get lost in that and we don’t hold on to the tradition on the traditions that keep us going (37:31) But we can’t be too rigid because we don’t adapt quickly enough to change when things change around us (37:37) Yeah, the tradition constant. Yeah, and I really like that aspect of (37:43) What Peterson talks about because he’s got that right, but what he has I think he does have that right? (37:49) That’s about one of the things he’s gotten right recently.Yeah (37:53) Yes, so (37:55) I’m writing an article actually about his conversation with this guy Alex O’Connor as a YouTube channel called cosmic skeptic, but (38:04) Here’s the thing. I’m gonna go (38:05) further than Peterson on the kind of (38:09) Religious like spiritual side of things so I don’t think he’s fully recognized this (38:16) teleological aspect to evolution that the universe is waking up that it’s self-organizing towards something higher and (38:22) When you do when you do see that story (38:26) There’s a form of like the the people who came up with this idea (38:30) So the philosophers Hegel and kill hard a Chardin or people who really these are Dan. Yeah.Yeah (38:36) We’re the we’re the first to talk about this (38:38) and they were Christian and so there’s like a like a (38:44) sort of Christian (38:45) Cosmology that comes out of this that if Jordan Peterson is going to talk about religion and use these Christian (38:51) You know these religious metaphors, which I think can be helpful (38:56) He should go all the way and embrace (38:59) teal hearts (39:02) Omega point theory and (39:05) Because it it it reveals a lot more than just understanding that it’s about you know (39:11) This interplay between order and chaos that’s actually the mechanism that generates (39:17) increasing complexity (39:19) And yeah, so you’re exactly right (39:22) traditions are (39:25) That represents order it also represents our (39:30) Collected knowledge like our adaptive knowledge things that have worked in the past and that have proven useful (39:37) to society and some of those things are just (39:40) useful metaphors (39:43) But those patterns are real and that’s what Peterson talks about as well there there the the stories of the Bible represent (39:51) These patterns of nature that do get realized in other ways (39:56) Even if some of the stories aren’t literally true (40:00) and (40:02) Yes, so where we need a we’re (40:07) Conservatism represents our collective knowledge that we’ve built up over our evolutionary history (40:14) You still need to have this (40:17) flexibility where you can (40:19) change and (40:21) Update your belief system to be more in line with what we know today (40:25) So it is this balance of order and flexibility, but we shouldn’t forget that our traditions are (40:35) The consequence of evolution like they contain (40:38) The fruits of a lot of trial and error (40:46) Exploration experimentation by humanity. We don’t want to throw all that out (40:52) Just because we don’t believe anymore that (40:55) Jesus actually (40:57) You know was resurrected and came back from the dead (41:02) Right. Yeah, and to that point go to that Peterson point is (41:06) What I’m starting to find from him is he’s not talking about the God as an entity (41:12) But as God being the concept of the best goodest outcome in each certain situation (41:20) That’s how I read the stories in the Bible (41:22) yeah, yeah, and I think it’s a (41:26) Useful way to look at things and I just go even farther and say that this evolutionary process is actually building God that nature (41:34) Is synonymous with God the the creative principle? (41:39) That this interplay between (41:42) distinctly towards order and disorder that creates life and (41:46) drives life towards higher complexity and (41:50) That to me that’s (41:52) the most spiritual thing (41:55) You can imagine because in this story we are actual (42:00) Expressions of God and expressions of that creativity and then we have a certain amount of free will (42:06) which means we (42:08) Are like vessels of God.We’re actually (42:12) we have that creative power and (42:16) If you believe this story of the self organizing universe, I’ve been describing (42:21) Intelligent agents come together and form this cosmic scale (42:25) intelligence, so (42:27) that (42:29) Conscious agents right now are literally in God’s image if that’s true. We’re sort of little mini gods like micro versions of God and (42:36) It sounds pretty radical but people like Ray Kurzweil Google’s director of engineering (42:45) He is clearly singularity. Yeah the singularity, but that’s just (42:50) That’s just one stage.He has a great (42:53) As the waking up of the universe like ultimately it becomes the the technological singularity though is the moment where? (43:02) intelligence becomes (43:05) Self-improving and (43:06) exponential at that and and once that happens you can’t stop (43:11) Cosmic spread like you can’t you can’t it’s like a runaway train in this it really hits a tipping point for sure (43:17) So on free will let’s be theorists have (43:20) Yeah, a lot of scientists have recognized this but they haven’t followed the spiritual implications (43:25) And I kind of left that out of the first book (43:28) I was just kind of alluded to him but the second book the work the book I’m working on is kind of showing it going (43:33) through (43:34) the history of Eastern philosophy and Western philosophy and showing that if you look at (43:39) The history of philosophy and religion is one human project trying to understand the universe (43:45) You can find all these concepts that map on to this story (43:49) And they kind of pop out pop out at you and you see that there is a universal and true objective story here (43:56) and it’s actually extremely spiritual because it gives a (44:01) Intrinsic purpose and meaning to life to help the universe (44:05) become like self-realized self-actualized and (44:09) That we’re not these, you know, meaningless accidental systems and for me it it kind of fills me with a (44:18) Infuses like life with like purpose and meaning and kind of like a playful spirit to you like (44:25) Basically (44:26) in a fun in a fun way a game like (44:29) Experiment right like we can experiment and test and then find the best outcome (44:34) not by being rigid and strict or not by being completely ethereal but by I (44:39) Using our logic and our reason and stoicism and all these other things to come up with the best answers (44:46) Yeah, and it’s up to us to even define what’s best like what’s optimal? It’s it’s an open question (44:51) So you kind of choose the rules of the game? (44:55) But there are certain constraints like you must get energy. You must get food. You have to have a shelter (45:01) But um, yeah, but I love the human experiment.We look at the unit (45:06) We look at the United States Thomas Jefferson, right? We we talk about perfect. Everyone’s a perfect life (45:11) That is an impossibility because in my opinion the only way you can experience something is to understand its exact opposite contrast (45:19) Contrast is how we see the world (45:21) We don’t know what good is until we know what bad is (45:23) Exactly in order to know what perfect is (45:25) We’d have to know what the opposite of perfect is and I don’t think anyone could endure that (45:30) To to get to what perfect is (45:32) So what I love about even the United States concept a more perfect Union (45:37) It never says a perfect. It’s just to more perfect.It’s always to improve to constantly (45:44) Adapt and change and make more perfect, but obviously striving for that (45:48) We know we’ll never get there (45:50) Yeah, that and that’s this theory makes that explicit. It basically says it’s this (45:56) Never-ending process and it’s good because if you got there, what would that mean? (45:59) It sounds like that would be the end of progress. You have to have these problems (46:03) Don’t get we don’t get good feedback by hitting the goal.We get it by meat reaching little things toward the goal (46:10) Yeah, that’s another Peterson thing that I think he got dead on is you know (46:14) I I just invest in this whole bunch of time and equipment into this thing and it’s over now and almost breathing (46:20) But like I’ve now that’s where my work begins. Actually, it’s not over at that point, you know (46:24) But a lot of people get to a goal and then they think oh they can stop but that’s not where the excitement comes (46:31) It comes with like oh my gosh. I got to talk to this next person that I’ve been trying to talk to.Oh my gosh (46:36) I got to shake this person’s hand (46:38) I got to ask this person a question and it’s the little steps towards the largest goal of that (46:44) Accomplishment that really keeps us going and provides purpose and meaning (46:48) Yeah, totally (46:51) So, okay. So free will you mentioned free will I have to mention them? (46:56) Let’s go to the four horsemen, right? (46:59) Sam Harris, I’m assuming he’s a reductionist of which one of the reductionists of whom you speak (47:06) He because he talks about (47:08) Not really a thing, right? (47:10) So could you tell me a little bit about your thoughts on free will and then what your thoughts and how they contrast his thoughts on? (47:16) that perhaps (47:18) Yeah, he’s just kind of confused. So he’s in between reductionism and emergent ism (47:24) So what he does is he conflates biological determinism and physical determinism (47:29) so there’s a kind of determinism you see in the inanimate world with like (47:35) inanimate objects follow classical mechanics or Newtonian mechanics, so you can use (47:41) pretty simple formulas (47:43) from Newton’s laws to predict where an object is going to go if you (47:48) If you map out all the forces that are acting on it, you can know (47:53) Basically the path of an object (47:56) But you can’t do that for organisms.So (48:01) Organisms have what’s called agency (48:03) so they are more autonomous than (48:08) Inanimate objects (48:10) It’s it’s a process that can be understood. I mean used to be really mysterious people (48:15) Some biologists were what’s called vitalists where they thought there was this kind of supernatural force animating life (48:21) And we find out that there is like a puppet on strings kind of basically (48:27) more of like some kind of (48:29) flowing essence in (48:33) Living systems that propelled them towards goals (48:37) where inanimate objects didn’t so Aristotle had this concept of (48:42) intellect e and (48:43) teleology (48:45) Henry Bergson is a French philosopher had the concept of the Ilan Vital and (48:51) They were right in the sense that organisms behave differently than inanimate objects (48:59) But then we start to learn that organisms what what’s special I give this in agency is information like this adaptive information (49:06) they’ve encoded through evolution through this learning process and (49:10) Also this control cybernetic control. It’s kind of like life can use feedback loops life kind of uses (49:18) chaos and self amplification to kind of (49:22) be able to (49:23) Control the environment.They’re like these living. Well, it provides the pressures for evolution to be forced to happen, right? (49:32) What’s that? (49:33) It basically provides the pressure for evolution to happen, right? What does? (49:38) That that last part that you were saying it provides the pressure to make change happen or to oh, yeah (49:44) so so natural selection is like the (49:48) The selection pressure that weeds out all the dysfunctional designs. So yeah, exactly, right.There’s like a (49:55) this constant pressure between the environment and (49:59) organism and so natural selection is needed (50:04) Because it’s kind of optimizing the design of life (50:09) but so we learned that (50:11) organisms are these like computational systems and they have this autonomy because (50:16) They’re these kind of computers, but they’re not just (50:21) The it’s it wouldn’t be accurate to like reduce them to the computers we have because we also have minds (50:27) And so we’re conscious emotion part. We’re conscious computers were like emotional computers (50:32) So that brings a spiritual quality to a computation. It’s not just computation (50:38) It’s a conscious agent.That’s a control system and there are deterministic (50:44) Processes in the brain as well. There’s a lot of stuff we do automatically. So we have this like program and (50:52) That program has been (50:55) Sculpted by (50:57) Our evolutionary history.So there’s instincts that we have that are genetically encoded (51:03) But there’s also a lot of stuff we’ve learned we learn a worldview and that kind of programs is too and we have certain (51:10) behaviors given certain inputs (51:13) So when Sam Sam Harris makes argument against free will (51:18) He doesn’t make this distinction between physical determinism and biological determinism. So we do have (51:25) Freedom in a way that all organisms have freedom in a way that inanimate organisms (51:31) I mean inanimate objects don’t have that some people will just grant them free will for having causal power (51:38) So it’s called causal power. There are these higher level causes in the old view (51:43) Everything was just if you look at everything as particles following mathematical trajectories (51:48) You get this kind of idea of a pool ball (51:50) Universe like everything is like a pool ball and it’s all the molecules are just following these mathematical trajectories (51:56) But what we really find is that these things these computational (52:01) architectures emerge and then the whole system gets control because it’s (52:05) This system that’s taking in patterns through sensory information and it’s understanding that it’s an agent in the world and it’s (52:14) using those patterns stored patterns to make predictions about the future, so (52:19) We have free will because we have agency we have causal power over the world in the way inanimate objects don’t (52:26) But then you might ask well, is it how free is it when you say free? (52:30) So sure we have will we have this autonomous behavior the self-driven behavior (52:35) how much freedom is there and (52:39) So then you start to think about biological determinism like there are these (52:45) Bacteria that are really simple.So there’s they’ll swim away from (52:50) Toxic substances and towards chemical food. They’ll just if they sense (52:58) Food their their their tail their their flagella won’t wiggle (53:02) But if they don’t it’ll wiggle so they’re these little simple programs. So there’s not much freedom in that behavior (53:09) But they are a gentle there (53:11) They are moving towards survival goals in ways that dead things don’t like you see life and you’re like, wow, it has agency (53:18) But free will I think to say, you know to earn the the title free (53:27) that (53:27) comes when you have a certain level of (53:30) Self-consciousness and (53:32) Then you can basically that’s the awareness of being aware.Is that what you would call consciousness or what? (53:38) What would you all that exact level? So the awareness of being aware, I think is self-awareness. It’s just kind of like a meta (53:46) Level like a step up like you you’re not just aware of the world (53:50) You’re aware that you have a mind that you’re an agent in the world and that you’re conscious (53:54) You can almost see you can always picture self (53:56) You can even picture yourself or imagine yourself in like third person with that person. Yeah, so that’s a different angles (54:03) That’s that’s an awesome distinction to make so that’s exactly where I was going.So I (54:07) Think they’re good (54:09) I’m glad you said that because that told me okay. This this is like a meaningful thing to add to that (54:16) Is that and maybe it even counts as another level of awareness? (54:19) So I’ve called this meta awareness. So that word is used sometimes to mean self-awareness in the literature (54:24) But basically (54:26) There’s an awareness that you’re an agent that’s part of a larger network of agents that themselves make (54:35) an intelligence and so that’s when you get that kind of like (54:40) Perspective like an almost godlike view or a drone like perspective (54:45) excuse me, and (54:46) so (54:48) Can we pause for just one second? Can we talk for one second? I think I’ve used a restroom.I’m very sorry (54:54) Well, my voice is dying. I’ve been like dry for like days trying to do my my this whole thing and like I’ve been hydrated (55:00) Like crazy. Thank you so much.I’ll be right back. Thank you so much. Yeah, no problem.Thank you again (56:49) I really appreciate it. No problem. So we’re getting this top-down (56:53) God (56:55) Theory piece.Okay. This is where exactly where we’re going. Let’s talk simulation.Okay, so sure, but um (57:01) Good. Yeah, just to say one more thing about free will so when we have that perspective (57:06) Then we can see that all the possible trajectories and we can choose our path out of the menu of possibilities (57:12) So a certain level of awareness brings free will into the picture (57:17) Because you can literally choose between (57:19) Different possibilities. You can also use consciousness to imagine (57:25) Possibilities that don’t exist yet and (57:28) That’s another Peterson point (57:29) That’s where he says the idea is everything can die in an idea versus in actual trying to make it happen (57:37) Yeah, there’s this and that’s where the chaos (57:39) If every if all the ideas become facts without being tested for their durability or their fragility or their anti fragility (57:47) Then that’s not good for us because it could collapse around us, right? (57:52) Yeah, so the evolutionary process that we’re talking about this self-organization process it it we’re used to thinking about it happening at the level (57:59) of organisms organisms competing and some dying and some (58:04) Existing and making copies of themselves, but it happens in the world of ideas to the world of means and (58:10) Peterson talks about memes and says Dawkins hasn’t gone far far enough.But yeah, they’re (58:15) Started it. I mean he started. Yeah (58:17) Gene, right, so he invented meme.That’s pretty cool (58:21) Yeah (58:21) and and there’s there’s way more to that literature than (58:23) Then Peterson knows because I saw him saying things where it was, you know clear like people I didn’t David Deutsch have (58:30) Really thought about this. But um, yeah, there’s a natural (58:33) by the way (58:34) And I’m so sorry that about his passing and I saw that at least he and Peterson got to talk a few weeks before his (58:40) Passing which was which is yeah, I need to go back and watch that. I got to meet him and talk to it was good (58:46) Yeah, I bet it was (58:48) And yeah, that’s really interesting.You got to meet him difference of use. Yeah, my friend (58:54) has like (58:55) kind of a (58:57) consciousness AI discussion group (59:00) That’s an Air Force group and they invited him (59:04) Like maybe a year ago and I got to ask him a question and we talked about this kind of stuff (59:11) Yeah, it was really neat (59:14) Yeah, cuz he’s he’s actually my of the four he he’s the lead (59:19) He’s the one that’s lost the least amount of luster over the years. I guess he’s (59:24) of (59:24) Of luster over the years.Yeah a lot of people, you know (59:28) they you know, I think Harris has gone a little TDS on some things and I think that (59:33) Dawkins has got a little UK imperialistic about some other things and I yeah (59:38) Obviously Hitchens, you know, I’m I’m kind of an anti-theist and we’ll talk about that for sure (59:43) Because it’s not what many people think people think I’m like anti God and it’s like not that at all (59:49) To me theism is the human (59:53) Interpretation of God and my anti-theism is with what I’ve experienced (59:58) I don’t know what it is. I only know that the human (1:00:03) Translation of it is 100% not correct. It’s (1:00:08) superficial and it became institutionalized through the Catholic Church and all these other institutions and you know, and (1:00:15) Mmm, you know institutions we find are fallible because they’re human and I’ve always now looked at the direct connection as (1:00:23) The the true source of how to do it because it has to be spoken in your language (1:00:28) you’re the only one who understands your perceptions and I will talk about some of the some of the things that I’ve experienced as well because (1:00:36) Like you said you talk top-down (1:00:38) Or at least that’s how we get the top-down (1:00:41) philosophy, right and (1:00:43) To you and I I think we’re at the thought that consciousness becoming emergent.There was a base reality, right? (1:00:51) There was a start (1:00:54) Emergent property. I think we’re actually on a multiple iteration of this consciousness emergence (1:01:00) That could be true. And yeah, that’s that’s what I’m writing about my new book.I kind of wrote that in (1:01:07) So but wait, and that’s where the consciousness come (1:01:10) I’m sorry (1:01:11) that’s where the simulation theory comes back around if I may because if if I may kind of describe it how I (1:01:16) perceive it from my experiences is (1:01:19) consciousness emerges (1:01:20) We get races and biological entities that have millions of years on us or even thousands of years. They don’t need many more (1:01:28) I mean look what we did in a hundred, right? (1:01:30) I mean imagine if we focused and didn’t have war and we just focused on technology or advancement or betterment (1:01:36) We think there was a society like that exist we could demilitarize tomorrow (1:01:40) We could demilitarize tomorrow and put all of that money into funding progress and absolutely would be absolutely. Yeah (1:01:47) So imagine that imagine society like that exists and then they are now (1:01:52) There’s that global con there’s that universal consciousness that we spoke of and now they are that next creator of the next base reality (1:02:00) Right.It’s kind of like turtles all the way down and we keep talking about that. So I I use God (1:02:05) This is my concept of God. I call it the place from which everything came (1:02:10) And by using that statement, there’s no argument from anyone if I go up.Do you believe in the place from which everything came? (1:02:18) Most people’s they might have a name for it like God or Big Bang or whatever (1:02:22) But the concept of that is seems to be universal. What are your thoughts? That’s beautiful. That’s perfect (1:02:30) That’s like you set me up to like knock it out of the park.That’s like what? (1:02:35) Here you go (1:02:37) That’s what my next book is about so (1:02:40) And I didn’t know that by the way (1:02:42) Just so you know (1:02:43) so maybe that’s why I know that and now let me let you down because my answer isn’t as good as it should be if (1:02:48) I’m not gonna know this is something I’m working on. I’m trying to understand it myself (1:02:55) I’m trying to learn from (1:03:01) Religious philosophies (1:03:03) And understand what this story of cosmic self-organization is better (1:03:08) but what you find out when you start looking for correspondences between this theory and (1:03:14) religions and (1:03:16) Western philosophy (1:03:19) Is these are these universal concepts that you alluded to so in Hinduism (1:03:24) There’s Brahman and Brahman just means it’s not really a personal deity (1:03:29) Which you seem to be kind of like that’s what you’re pushing back against (1:03:33) with religion in general (1:03:35) it’s more of this (1:03:37) concept of there being this (1:03:40) meaningful whole this this (1:03:43) totality from which everything emanates and (1:03:48) What (1:03:49) What the German idealists there were some philosophers in the 18th and oh, that’s why I’m so good (1:03:56) My parents are German, that’s how I know this it’s yeah, it’s in your genetic (1:04:02) I’m half Persian and it’s in Zoroastrianism, too (1:04:06) It’s written and I sometimes I feel like huh if our ancestors there is, you know, like (1:04:12) Epigenetic and printing like if they did have this (1:04:15) Concept in their culture. You could very well be kind of primed to think this way (1:04:21) Um, but but with with the German idealists, so Hegel and Schelling (1:04:25) Hegel being the most famous they had this idea that the universe (1:04:30) that that that nature was basically in this process of (1:04:34) developing or a process of becoming and that it was (1:04:39) becoming self-aware through (1:04:42) Self-aware agents like humans basically the story that I’ve been telling (1:04:46) This whole time was what the German (1:04:49) idealists had come up with (1:04:51) But they had a concept called the absolute and the absolute was the same thing as what you described and it was the same thing (1:04:58) as Brahman (1:05:00) but (1:05:01) Where the absolute where Brahman is a little bit more vague (1:05:06) It’s just supposed to be like, you know reality and its totality and everything comes from that (1:05:12) the absolute is something that is (1:05:15) evolving and developing and (1:05:18) Manifesting itself like in more complex forms and through those (1:05:23) forms, excuse me, they come to (1:05:26) Nature comes to realize itself.So it’s the story of cosmic evolution absolute. It’s an absolute in the direction (1:05:32) It’s going not an absolute in a fixed way (1:05:36) It’s always evolving. It’s not this fixed, right? (1:05:39) So adding things a lot of people think of absolutes is like it’s fixed, right? (1:05:43) But this is absolute in its progress of expanding (1:05:47) Yes, it’s everything so it’s reality in its totality, but that reality is (1:05:53) transforming and (1:05:55) Developing and it’s moving towards a state ultimately where it understand it’s understand.It’s understand itself (1:06:02) so the absolute is the story of the becoming of Brahman and (1:06:06) The philosopher till hard a shard and I think the French pronounce it a our day shard on if I’m being fancy (1:06:13) Yeah, this concept of the omega my pinky when we drink our tea (1:06:19) He had this concept of the Omega point which he (1:06:25) Understood as being the cosmic Christ like the point at which this higher consciousness (1:06:31) Emerges and that was kind of the resurrection of Jesus and in the world. They do call it Christ consciousness (1:06:37) They do call that Yahweh Christ consciousness and things like that (1:06:41) Yes, so (1:06:42) These ideas are kind of scattered throughout religion (1:06:47) but if you look at it from the perspective of this self-organizing cosmos story where humans are the (1:06:53) self-aware manifestations of this (1:06:56) creative principle then you get (1:06:59) Brahman is the whole totality of it. It’s the self-organizing universe (1:07:04) The Tao the Tao the is sort of the organizing tendency of Brahman becoming (1:07:13) More complex and more organized and coherent and the story is basically one of Brahman (1:07:20) becoming the cosmic Christ (1:07:22) through (1:07:24) Conscious agents basically (1:07:28) Reproducing like proliferating and then coming together to make this (1:07:32) cosmic scale distributed intelligence (1:07:35) And so there’s another concept in Hinduism aside from Brahman.So Brahman is everything but there’s also into (1:07:42) Individual consciousness and the name for that is Atman (1:07:46) But there’s this, you know principle in Hinduism that says Atman is identical to Brahman and that’s what the German idealists (1:07:53) We’re really saying is that the absolute is everything (1:07:57) but it’s basically evolving and it’s creating these (1:08:01) Self-aware systems these organisms that allow it to it to experience itself and (1:08:09) That this process is (1:08:11) headed towards a more perfect state and what’s interesting is there does seem to be a moral arc to this process as (1:08:20) Organisms get more intelligent. We become more aware of other agents (1:08:25) We recognize that where that it’s all an interconnect passion for example emerges more compassion with when we develop a theory of mind (1:08:33) So we develop a theory of that their thing other things have other minds (1:08:38) We naturally become more compassionate. So there’s a moral arc and that’s (1:08:43) That concept comes from Zoroastrianism.There’s this concept of Asha and so Asha is kind of like this (1:08:50) ordering principle that’s similar to the Tao and (1:08:55) Brahman (1:08:57) But it’s specifically also related to (1:09:00) Ethical progress. So if you look at Eastern religion you have these religions that kind of (1:09:08) explain (1:09:09) deities as (1:09:12) personified (1:09:13) cosmic functions (1:09:16) And not even really personified so much they’re just mapping cosmic functions (1:09:20) And you think about it look at look at the Roman gods (1:09:23) They were they were functions of acts right like God of war God of you know (1:09:28) Agriculture, so they always personified an act or an action or some kind of meaning I guess (1:09:35) Yeah (1:09:36) so you could (1:09:37) construct like a meta religion that takes the things that map on to the dynamics of nature and (1:09:44) You basically get concepts from all of these different religions and you can see this (1:09:48) Kind of evolutionary development in Eastern and Western philosophy and you have the Greeks they’re the seeds for all these things in (1:09:55) Greek philosophy and (1:09:58) so (1:10:00) then you have a picture of a (1:10:03) God like you described where everything is seen as part of an interconnected whole (1:10:10) But we don’t know if this universe is is the beginning of this process or another iteration (1:10:16) And if we are one iteration (1:10:18) Then we could be the creation of an intelligent agent just the same way that we’re starting to create (1:10:24) Digital virtual worlds with agents and you could imagine creating a program if you don’t think you know computers are conscious (1:10:31) There’s neuromorphic hardware. You could imagine a certain hardware that has (1:10:35) biological (1:10:37) Architecture you could even use biology you can string cells together and you can start creating intelligent or link, right? (1:10:44) We’ve only where we’re starting to become transhuman anyway, right (1:10:48) Yes, I think that’s where this process is inevitably heading that we merge with our technology.And that’s what allows us to (1:10:57) basically (1:10:58) cut like expanding through the universe becomes (1:11:01) Something that doesn’t seem impossible once that merger happens, even though people are scared of that merger. It’s gonna happen (1:11:07) Over time it’s gonna be a seamless transition to you. I think there’s a way to do it.That will be (1:11:14) painless and (1:11:15) Just natural. Yeah, but but money’s involved. So it’s not gonna be painless (1:11:20) It’s gonna be that you know, the tops are gonna get it and get that advancement, you know (1:11:24) Yeah, there will be it there will be a day when I think all conscious agents will have the ability (1:11:32) to have life extended basically indefinitely (1:11:36) But you’re right right now (1:11:38) The people with the most resources are (1:11:41) Gonna be the ones that get it and they’re racing.But I mean if that’s true, then in a way, they’re the guinea pigs (1:11:47) So, I mean maybe maybe it’s good (1:11:49) But no bad, right (1:11:52) Yeah, and if our universe is another iteration of this then we do there is a guy there is a creator (1:11:57) So there there could perhaps be some sort of intelligent agent that created this world. But for me (1:12:04) Then you still have to ask where that agent came from (1:12:06) So ultimately the most the deepest explanation is just that reality has this fundamental (1:12:13) Tendency towards life and consciousness that just keeps growing and then that’s where you derive all the meaning from (1:12:21) Right and and to your point once again, we get we do talk turtles all the way down (1:12:24) What what may God to the same point that you’re talking about is I do think there was a zero point like a big bang (1:12:30) Piece where everything was quantum entangled and I’ll explain that because that’s where we go into the woo stuff (1:12:38) But that’s all quantum entangled and that was the first iteration of this base reality. That was ground zero (1:12:44) That was patient zero and then that did become it to your philosophy the emergent property and then that created the first God (1:12:53) That then created the second iteration of the base reality in my opinion (1:12:57) Yes, we might be a multiple so it still didn’t to your point it doesn’t have a starting God (1:13:04) It just followed the patterns of evolution (1:13:07) But then that next when it did become universally conscious then it allowed for the next (1:13:15) Yeah, it’s reality 2.0 (1:13:17) Yeah, so (1:13:19) Yeah, the I think I have the same view and the way I try to describe it when people have that something-for-nothing (1:13:26) How do you get something from nothing question? Is that maybe? (1:13:31) Nothing is inherently unstable.Maybe there’s just this tendency towards higher organization (1:13:39) That (1:13:41) just explains (1:13:43) Where everything comes from? (1:13:45) You just have to accept that there’s an organizing principle in nature (1:13:50) so (1:13:52) But the way you described it sounds like it could explain (1:13:56) how (1:13:57) Organization came about from this universe in this universe (1:14:01) But yeah (1:14:02) It just makes me wonder whether there’s been other iterations and whether there’s a deeper base reality (1:14:09) And whether that same explanation when we’re talking in terms of quantum stuff whether that still applies (1:14:15) I think it probably would in some general sense, but I keep it a little more general and say like (1:14:21) Yeah, there’s just inherent stability in a state of nothingness (1:14:26) and a reality that expresses the totality of possibilities is (1:14:32) Also going to have something in addition to nothing (1:14:36) But yeah, well we talk about Lawrence Lawrence (1:14:39) Brown who’s the yes Lawrence Krauss in the origins project, right? What doesn’t space had space isn’t nothing it’s composed of stuff (1:14:48) It’s not nothing. It’s not a yes. Oh, yeah, so (1:14:53) That’s where I kind of was trying to probe your explanation further because it sounds kind of like what Krauss talks about (1:15:01) There’s kind of this (1:15:03) quantum (1:15:04) ground of everything that (1:15:08) Spontaneously order emerges from that but that’s (1:15:13) Presupposing a different kind of existence where there’s this sort of quantum (1:15:20) Foam reality where there’s still there’s still laws too.And that’s been a criticism right of his things. Well, it would be (1:15:28) well (1:15:30) It could create all the multiverses with different laws in them like physics and gravity (1:15:35) Are they all you know dark energy has a different number than the dark matter does and gravity is a different constant things like that (1:15:41) and that’s where the test the universe has come out and then law of natural selection the universe that (1:15:46) Works or that adapts within it within those laws are the ones that survive (1:15:50) Yeah (1:15:51) there’s cosmological natural selection theory that says that every time there’s a black hole that forms in the universe secretes basically a baby universe on (1:15:59) the other side that inherits (1:16:00) the constants and laws of physics of the parent universe, but with some variation and (1:16:06) through this process you’ll get (1:16:08) universes that create life that are friendly for life because (1:16:14) Basically the conditions that lead to universes that create a lot of black holes (1:16:19) those universes with stars are more likely to give rise to life and if intelligent life can engineer these universes then (1:16:26) that growing evolving multiverse starts becoming mostly populated with (1:16:31) Universes that lead to intelligences and universes that lead that basically go towards these Omega points (1:16:37) So, I think that might be the right answer, but I still think when you look at that process (1:16:44) It’s still inevitably producing life and complexity and consciousness. So to me (1:16:50) There’s always like a spiritual aspect of it because it describes a universe that’s moving towards (1:16:58) consciousness ultimately and (1:17:02) I (1:17:02) Don’t know if you can ever get a fully satisfying (1:17:06) Explanation of why nature is that way but when you recognize that (1:17:10) that’s the way nature is as opposed to a (1:17:15) system that gives rise to life, but it’s only transient and it fades out and we fail in our (1:17:22) Dream of (1:17:24) Expanding past our star because when our star dies if we don’t get out of the solar system (1:17:32) The planets not going to be habitable (1:17:34) so (1:17:37) Yeah, it’s it’s always mysterious and that’s what’s interesting about it, but I think what you (1:17:44) The explanation you’ve converged on it’s like a new type of spirituality (1:17:50) It’s basically not that different from Eastern and Western religion (1:17:54) but it’s looking at it in a more rational way and it’s not placing so much importance on (1:18:03) Literal interpretations of stories that were meant to teach people principles that would be useful in life (1:18:10) Well, thank you for that I really appreciate it I’m trying to keep up with you (1:18:14) I I swore today if I was if I stumbled I I was like Biden I over prepared (1:18:19) I swear I over prepared I didn’t it’s not because I have dementia or anything.Yeah. No, it’s it’s been great (1:18:24) I’m a little spacey (1:18:25) It’s a little bit later in the day than I usually do podcasts because we’re in different times (1:18:29) But I know and I and I’m really gracious for the time and I I’d love to touch into this before we go because like (1:18:35) I know we talked for a long time (1:18:36) I hope we had I hope this compels us to have another conversation because I what you just talked about your (1:18:42) Conspiracy thing I would love to be some part of that in some way (1:18:45) I mean in some way contributing because I’ve actually done debunked and I just love that and I love those kind of those kinds of things (1:18:52) So it would be cool to do it in a really responsible (1:18:57) Systematic way. I’m just 100.I’m just worried that it’s gonna lead us towards things that people don’t (1:19:03) People said that I don’t care. No, I’m actually I seek truth. So this is what happened if may I share my woo? (1:19:11) Sure.Yeah, I love it. Okay, so (1:19:15) Everyone calls it woo. This is what I called.I call it fruit loop and wind chimer. Okay, I’m no (1:19:19) I’m not a fruit loop wind chimer. Okay? (1:19:22) I’m (1:19:25) Okay, I (1:19:26) Call it woo.I was like Wu Tang W you so nice (1:19:31) Wu-Tang all that the Wu-Tang clang would be the greatest podcast name ever (1:19:36) W-o-o Tang clan. Yes. I’m getting that one down Wu-Tang clan calm.Where is it? (1:19:41) Well, so so so woo w-o-o would be the the stuff that’s not real the pseudoscience (1:19:46) It turns out to be fake (1:19:47) But some of the woo the w-o-o will find is real if we did one of these kind of Bayesian exercises (1:19:54) But you know (1:19:54) you don’t know and that’s why I want to share with you if I’m tons of things that we’ve (1:19:59) Figured out that would appear to be a garage door opener would look like magic to someone right? Well lighter (1:20:04) You think about it later? That’s what I use (1:20:06) Imagine imagine a caveman going back in time and making fire come out of your hand (1:20:11) They’d either stone you or worship you. There’s really no there’s no middle ground there (1:20:15) Yeah, so some of its real and so w-u is is the Wu that’s the real Wu I (1:20:21) Like it so on that (1:20:22) I was 13 years old and I was involved in a car accident where I was ejected from a vehicle (1:20:29) I had a near-death experience and out-of-body experience. I recall hovering over my body (1:20:35) It was clumped like I was like in a fetal position curled up on the ground and I remember blue and red flashing lights (1:20:42) We how are my (1:20:44) 13 years old 13 (1:20:47) Fast forward to I’m 40 years old and (1:20:51) I’m struggling with life over time and getting more and more resentful (1:20:56) not understanding my perp not understanding a lot of things and (1:21:01) I (1:21:02) Decided to seek help.So I didn’t want to go psychology didn’t want to do sites (1:21:07) Psychiatry because I didn’t want to be prescribed medication (1:21:11) Plus in my humble opinion, I’m smarter than all of those people. I needed something that we always do (1:21:18) Yeah all do respect and I know but it’s one of those things where it’s like if you if I can trust that someone’s that (1:21:23) I can admire and see something that I can aspire to then I at least have something but if I can’t get that I I (1:21:30) Can’t build that. Yeah trust I guess.Yeah, so I sought out neuro linguistic programming. I’m sure you’re familiar (1:21:38) I am I think it’s really interesting and I I (1:21:42) Imagine there’s some stuff that people claim that’s fake, but I also think language is extremely powerful and that you can (1:21:50) completely (1:21:51) Do interesting things with how you use words? (1:21:56) yeah, so I (1:21:59) The so the person I picked (1:22:01) The reason I picked them is because they had a degree in quantum mechanics (1:22:06) Nonlinear mathematics, you know applied mathematics things like that (1:22:09) So I’m like if if nothing else I can just buy a friend for an hour and talk like cool (1:22:15) Stuff right? Like that’s the way I saw it. So so I walked into this guy’s office and (1:22:22) He he looks at me walking in just his little room where I go to sit down and talk to him (1:22:27) It was like an introduction try it for $35, you know, one of those things whatever and I walk in he looks at me (1:22:34) Instantaneously sees my like me scanning the room and he cocks his head.He goes (1:22:40) You’re different (1:22:42) And come on man, you’re I’m midlife crisis, you know, my love crisis like I didn’t I didn’t really want to be here anymore (1:22:49) I wasn’t sure if I wanted to be here anymore. So like he instantaneously connected with me (1:22:54) I mean, that’s the perfect thing to tell somebody who feels different is oh, yeah, by the way, you’re different because you you know (1:22:59) So he obviously knew I think he just knew what to say to be completely honest (1:23:03) I don’t think it was anything outside of he just knew how to well, that’s a that’s a magical skill in its own (1:23:09) It isn’t a it’s an amazing skill (1:23:11) We’ll get to it because I think there is a deeper component (1:23:13) but I do want to at least acknowledge what we can basically say is (1:23:17) A fact that he knows what to say to to have someone who’s distraught coming into their office talk (1:23:24) so fast forward (1:23:26) I’m learning some things about my subconscious learning things getting better. He he finally says we’re gonna do a guided meditation (1:23:33) I have never done a guided meditation in my life.I don’t know what these things are (1:23:38) So I’m like, okay, he says, okay, you’re you close your eyes. Just relax breathe (1:23:43) You’re on the ocean (1:23:44) You’re in the you’re on the ocean and you’re at the beach and you pick up a sapphire (1:23:48) Then you look up in the sky and you see this feather (1:23:51) In the sky and then you see these shades of our sheets of glass spinning in the sky and in them are visions like pictures (1:23:59) video and (1:24:00) So I imagine all these things and in the sheet of glass and Bobby you’ve talked with me long enough just to understand (1:24:07) I’m absolutely lucid (1:24:10) in the sheet of glass (1:24:12) black man behind a podium (1:24:15) 2015 (1:24:17) Looks to shake someone’s hand to his right (1:24:20) Looks to shake his hand to someone to his left and I see a flash and the flash to me indicated gun. I (1:24:29) Don’t know why or anything I (1:24:33) Never experienced anything ever in the history of my life like that.I (1:24:39) Came out of it and I had tears and this is 2015 (1:24:42) Please mind use and you could probably corroborate this the how the subconscious works. I came out of it (1:24:47) I looked at the doctor or the NLP guy and I said, I just saw Obama get shot (1:24:52) And I was distraught (1:24:55) Completely distraught like I was starting to breathe heavy and I was like crying like almost in the verge of tears (1:25:02) He looks at me deadpan and he goes that either happened somewhere else (1:25:07) Where it’s gonna happen here (1:25:09) No joke, okay (1:25:13) Next Thursday, I come into his office and he goes. Hey, remember that vision you had last week (1:25:21) You hear what happened last night, I don’t know if you heard what happened yesterday and I’m like (1:25:27) Yeah, I heard something about some shooting or something and (1:25:30) He breaks down for me that Clementa Pinckney the South Carolina person was the man that I saw (1:25:38) And there’s a video (1:25:40) He told me I I did not do this.He told me so I went back into a video April (1:25:46) 2015 there’s a video of Clementa Pinckney at the State Senate and it looks (1:25:51) In a suit. He’s behind a podium (1:25:55) He has this mannerism where he takes his hand and he brings it from his right to his left across his body all the time (1:26:01) It’s the weirdest. I’ve never seen anyone have this mannerism and the hairs on my arm stand up every time I see it Wow, I (1:26:10) Love that.I have a friend that oh, sorry. I was just gonna say no. No, that’s it.No, please stop (1:26:16) a friend that is very rational minded to when the (1:26:21) assassination attempt happened (1:26:23) the other night they said that they had a (1:26:26) Kind of vision of that like just not, you know anything mystical (1:26:30) but they had been they had thought of that like that idea like came into their head that that (1:26:35) Might happen and that was weird and then I was kind of probing them like interested in and then they were like (1:26:42) Well, maybe maybe after I saw it happen (1:26:45) I just retroactively like made that memory like they started to question themselves and I asked I was like (1:26:52) it’d be really interesting to know like how many like you could somehow do a survey of everyone and like how many people (1:26:59) Had that in me like it. Yes those kind of things really (1:27:03) interest me because (1:27:05) You start thinking about causality and how everything is (1:27:08) Interconnected and John Wheeler (1:27:11) theoretical physicists and did these experiments where he showed there was like this kind of backward causality this kind of handshake through time where (1:27:21) Yeah (1:27:22) People should look that up. Yeah, it’s it’s really weird (1:27:24) It’s kind of hard to explain but uh, and the mirror of engine is all about causality (1:27:28) I mean, I love that part like in the matrix the mirror of engine is literally describes the whole simulation theory at its best (1:27:34) Yeah, I got to get deeper into the philosophy of it is that in the the sequels just in general, yeah (1:27:44) Yeah, we could talk about another time but yeah, it’s basically through just the I mean matrix is kind of simulation theory (1:27:50) And it was actually a black woman who wrote the initial book that the Wachowskis kind of hijacked allegedly (1:27:55) I’d be interested to see what book it was based on.I didn’t know that but I’ll share that info with you (1:28:01) I have all that cuz like I go down I go wide and deep man (1:28:04) Yeah for the for the record the matrix came out before Nick Bostrom published his simulation theory argument (1:28:11) And the book was written in 1980 actually by the woman I think (1:28:16) It’s really interesting. I’ll share that information with you for sure. So so if I may if I may continue I yeah, there’s more (1:28:22) I didn’t know.Oh, it’s not that that started it by that that that alone is pretty insane (1:28:29) Yeah, so this is 2015 now since then (1:28:35) I I get visions I get I don’t meditate anymore. I can’t meditate because I’ll go places (1:28:43) It’s burdensome because I see a lot of darkness and I’ve got a couple philosophies on it (1:28:48) I love to just I want to play what I love about this is this is this is the thing (1:28:52) Let’s be Bayesian about it. I love that.You’re just open to the ideas and (1:28:57) These are my thoughts. I have I’ve explained my (1:29:02) Experiences and I’ll share a couple more with you just to solidify how like they’re just some are fun (1:29:07) Some are real heavy some are light summer, you know, they’re all over the place, but they’re not controlled by (1:29:12) a little bit of a Bayesian explanation for for what you’re doing (1:29:19) It doesn’t explain (1:29:22) Well the experience the fact that that happened so this isn’t trying to explain away the experience (1:29:29) But it’s giving some insight on what the brain does as a as a Bayesian system (1:29:37) So that that basically means it just makes predictions (1:29:40) It takes what it knows about the world takes the patterns that it knows and it starts to generate (1:29:45) Predictions about what might happen. So when people are having these kind of like prophetic visions (1:29:50) It’s collective human inference and what I think is going on and when I talked about philosophy as being like one (1:29:58) In religion being one like grand project of humanity.It represents this act of collective human inference. So we’re all (1:30:07) Trying to understand the world (1:30:09) Based on what we see and what we know and we start making predictions about the nature of it and we start trying to predict (1:30:15) The future so your brain is doing this kind of Bayesian exercise where it’s constructing possible futures (1:30:23) but whether whether it’s actually (1:30:26) Tapping into things that are going to happen like how it’s (1:30:31) actually converging on real events (1:30:34) that’s something that’s not fully explained, but (1:30:38) We don’t know the extent of entanglement to we did so I’m just trying to point figure out how it can be working. Yeah (1:30:46) There are two things and once again, I I thank you just for delving into this because I’m not telling you that my imagination (1:30:55) Is real I’m telling you that I experienced what I imagined (1:31:00) What I’m telling you my experience is real (1:31:02) I’m not telling you what it means because I don’t know what it means, but it really freaky (1:31:07) And I like I said, we have a lot of conversations down the road probably all just in general to have chats (1:31:13) I’m not I’m not lying.It’s crazy. But I’ve had other people tell me these kinds of stories recently and (1:31:20) It’s always really interesting to hear it from the people who are kind of skeptical minded and rational to begin with (1:31:27) Because then you’re like, well, they have no (1:31:32) Ideological motivation to believe in (1:31:34) this kind of like, you know certain things that (1:31:39) It would be hard to fit into our current scientific framework, which makes it more believable (1:31:44) So I call my podcast Knocked Conscious because yeah, I was knocked conscious at that moment (1:31:54) So to use perception like we talked about perception and how we translate our own world (1:31:59) This is how I got to this direct connection with God versus the institutionalized and you know (1:32:05) My I and this is how I got to my anti-theist philosophy. So (1:32:08) There are two two instances.I remember my last girlfriend. We were on our first date and (1:32:15) we were talking about you know, if we were gonna have kids what we name our kids or something and (1:32:20) She said I know what I’m gonna name. I if I have a girl (1:32:23) I know exactly what I’m gonna name her and no one would ever guess it and (1:32:28) I’m a pilot and (1:32:31) Amelia Earhart popped into my head (1:32:33) No idea why but that’s what I’m gonna go.Is it Amelia and she like turns goes white? (1:32:39) Freak yeah, but this is what’s interesting. He was from Amelia Bedelia (1:32:46) Okay, I wasn’t Amelia Earhart so but I would not have understood Amelia Bedelia (1:32:51) Yeah, I only would have understood Amelia Earhart because I don’t know what Amelia Bedelia like that’s not my thing (1:32:57) Yeah (1:32:58) So it was already the even the image came to me and was perceived the way I would perceive it (1:33:05) Not the way she okay like you got the image from outside but then your brain created a context to create an explanation (1:33:14) Which might not necessarily have been the real reason that it popped into your head (1:33:18) Right, and this is so weird because I honestly think it was a button pushed (1:33:23) Outward thought in I know it sounds correct and I’ll explain that in a second because I actually have something further (1:33:29) If I may and I really appreciate you (1:33:32) Humoring me through these crazy times (1:33:35) I’m gonna I’m in a guided meditation about ten other people (1:33:39) with a (1:33:41) Psychic reader that I know who’s a good friend of mine (1:33:44) Actually, I I really went wide and deep for a while because I was really overwhelmed for a while (1:33:50) But we were in a guided meditation in a circle and we were supposed to go a guided meditation to see loved ones in (1:33:57) The past, you know someone’s who’s passed on (1:33:59) You know see someone, you know, see your grandma or your you know, your aunt or somebody right? (1:34:04) so yeah, so everybody’s going through and we’re doing the guided meditation and (1:34:09) You hear it and they’re talking you through it and all of a sudden I see this fine thin glass with a gold rim on it (1:34:17) You know those beer glasses that are super fine from Germany (1:34:20) They have like 0.5 liter written on them and you know, they’re just really thin and super gorgeous. Mm-hmm, and then I see this (1:34:28) Picture of wheat beer golden wheat beer being poured into it (1:34:32) Okay, and then from this side I see a black smelting ball (1:34:35) You know those smelting balls where it’s heated and then like you pour out the metal out of it (1:34:40) Yeah, and gold goes into the into the glass directly into the glass.So I get a gold rimmed glass (1:34:47) golden wheat beer and gold smelting poured into the glass like Goldschlager like the little (1:34:53) Flakes and I’m like, I can’t drink this. This is useless. Now.This is during a guided meditation to find loved ones in the past (1:35:00) Okay now (1:35:02) I’m just telling you this because this is what I experienced (1:35:05) I I don’t know what it means, but everyone goes around and we’re like, oh I saw my grandmother and I’m sitting here (1:35:12) I saw a picture of freaking beer and (1:35:15) Gold being poured into it. What what the heck like what am I gonna share at the end of this, right? Yeah (1:35:21) So I want to go last like I’m letting everybody go first (1:35:24) Everybody sharing these stories are beautiful stories of how they saw people in a meadow and fields and I’m like, oh my gosh (1:35:31) I can’t even do this, right? You know, I can’t even meditate right, right? (1:35:34) so (1:35:35) It finally comes to my turn. I’m the last person I go.I have no idea what this means (1:35:42) Not at all, but this I explained it I described it the psychic medium is the person whose house it was (1:35:49) She goes I can corroborate she gets up and walks away (1:35:53) Into the back room and I’m like, okay, and I’m like guys, this is what I saw. She comes back and she goes (1:36:01) Before you guys came over. I was dusting the counter the coffee table and I used this goosh scotch liquid gold (1:36:10) I don’t know how much more accurate that could be like I had a meditation of seeing exactly liquid gold this whole time and (1:36:20) She used scotch liquid gold to polish her table before we all came (1:36:26) There’s got to be a connection there, but I can’t imagine what that is (1:36:30) Is it possible that you caught a glimpse of it before and then it was in the closet? (1:36:35) She got it out of the closet and and thank you for asking that because that is a great question (1:36:41) Possibly.Yeah, possibly (1:36:43) But I have more I mean (1:36:45) Here’s one here’s the last one and this is where the simulation started really opening for me the simulation of the outward (1:36:51) Message in not me getting it, but actually being outward. There’s a (1:36:58) Let me say real quick. There’s a yeah, please.No, please theoretical physicist physicist named Vitaly venture in (1:37:05) who has this idea that the universe is a neural network and (1:37:10) He’s actually expressed the idea of this possibility of this interconnection (1:37:17) Between like nodes in the neural network to where there’s this (1:37:22) non-local (1:37:23) exchange of information and that you can become like a receiver of (1:37:29) knowledge that (1:37:30) Basically gets like impinged on your mind like the caution record like the Akashic records and things like that (1:37:36) it’s like I mean similar to that it’s it’s it’s like a (1:37:41) Physical theory that has mathematics behind it. That would be analogous to something like that. It’s pretty wild (1:37:48) Does Penrose talk about it too with quantum tunneling or is it slightly different? I I don’t I don’t know if Penrose (1:37:55) thinks that phenomena like that happen (1:37:59) but I imagine he’d say that if (1:38:01) If we did if we collected data and we found all of these reports and then it started actually seem like that happens that he would (1:38:08) Say well, it’s not surprising because realities quantum (1:38:14) At its basis.But yeah, this guy Vitaly he thinks I (1:38:19) Don’t even think he calls it, you know, he doesn’t think the mechanisms quantum (1:38:22) but he thinks that it’s something analogous happening at the classical level and that (1:38:29) He basically thinks like through like he has the same kind of model of kind of the self-organizing universe and (1:38:36) It’s almost like the the the neural network is something that’s like coming into existence (1:38:44) through the evolutionary process and as more there’s like a hidden layer that (1:38:51) you can possibly (1:38:53) tap into where there’s like (1:38:56) exchange of information (1:38:59) According to rules that wouldn’t you know make sense with like normal thoughts of causality (1:39:06) So the last last one I’ll share with you and then I’d love for you to just share a little bit more about your (1:39:12) stuff before you go and (1:39:13) Thank you so much for your time, man (1:39:15) And I really hope that we’ve started some kind of you know, at least you know communication back and forth (1:39:20) Yeah, it’s been a lot of fun (1:39:23) So my girlfriend corroborate this one, I mean it happens a lot of times (1:39:26) I’ll just do stuff. But this one was a very direct one. I actually avoided a car accident and (1:39:32) I was in Arizona (1:39:33) we’re on the highway and I’m in there’s an HOV lane, which is the outside lane where you can go for high occupancy vehicles and (1:39:40) I’m the one lane over from that and there’s a slight drizzle (1:39:44) there’s a pickup truck coming up on that lane and (1:39:48) Rapidly, you know coming to pass us on the left and something pops in my head trouble.This is I heard trouble (1:39:55) I look in the rear and I even said it to my guy said man (1:39:57) That doesn’t look right something bad is gonna happen (1:39:58) I don’t know why but I just said it out loud and it’s interesting because it’s not always I get millions of thoughts (1:40:04) It’s just whatever comes out seems to be where it finds the filter, I guess right? (1:40:10) so we start driving and all sudden I get an input to like I (1:40:14) Start muttering almost like a weird channel I go (1:40:17) No, that guy’s good. That guy’s in trouble that guy that guy’s not gonna go well (1:40:20) and I literally let my foot off the gas and (1:40:24) Instinctively put my turn signal on and move two lanes over (1:40:27) Mm-hmm, and I saw a flash of the truck coming across our lanes (1:40:31) Which is why I slowed down and just moved over just five miles an hour nothing crazy (1:40:36) But just like that enough, you know what I mean? (1:40:38) Like I got like told to do that (1:40:41) We come around the bend and there’s a car accident and that guy shouldn’t even have been involved in the accident (1:40:46) But he locked up his truck and actually came across all the lanes (1:40:50) Came across in front of us and I just came to a stop and I looked at my girlfriend. I went we’re good, right? (1:40:56) Everything’s okay.I (1:40:58) Go, I have no idea how that happened. But I was I was instinctively (1:41:02) told to do that (1:41:04) And she saw that that you guys she was basically she’s a passenger you saved (1:41:09) You saved her and yourself. She was a passenger (1:41:12) I and I and it was in I was in a like in that really unconscious zone (1:41:16) You know, you’re driving and like zoned out driving.Yeah, so I wasn’t like focused thinking about where I’m going (1:41:21) I was just kind of like and I think once again the openness allows that to come in in a way. Yeah. Well (1:41:27) One thing that could explain it in a way that’s less mysterious (1:41:35) But I still think super cool and I think this is happening all the time and explains a lot of these (1:41:41) Reports and it’s something that we should be talking about (1:41:46) The brain is doing all this kind of (1:41:50) Inference this Bayesian inference in this computational (1:41:54) processing of sensory input at this (1:41:57) Unconscious level the conscious mind is aware of only a little bit of that processing (1:42:03) So it might have been the case that something (1:42:07) violated a pattern some sort of (1:42:10) Behavior of the car the way it was moving some sort of trajectory that your brain just noticed at this (1:42:17) Holistic level something is not right here (1:42:20) Right, and it wasn’t that truck wasn’t the one involved in the accident.There was an accident already ahead (1:42:26) Which he got caught up in. Oh (1:42:29) Okay, see so there was already a pile up ahead (1:42:32) Which actually compelled him to slow to step on the brakes which came had him come across (1:42:38) It like I said, he wasn’t the one who did he wasn’t the one who really started the accident. He was just involved in it (1:42:45) It’s weird, but his but his his behavior was also yeah, maybe a concert.It was definitely that would alert (1:42:54) pattern (1:42:54) Yeah, so he might have saw something and then you saw how he behaved in response (1:43:00) Possibly. Yeah, and I do agree with you (1:43:03) I think a lot of it is some of us have this pattern recognition ability. That’s kind of part of the IQ (1:43:08) Right like pattern recognition.Some people don’t have it. So we’re able to take the pieces of information (1:43:13) Connect them either loosely or even more specifically and then come out to some kind of theory or hypothesis or (1:43:21) Something that we can then test (1:43:23) Unfortunately, we just can’t test this stuff right now, you know, yeah (1:43:28) The yeah there there could be ways to test it and that would be interesting for future science (1:43:35) For example of a thing that I would consider woo WU and not WLO. So it’s something that’s real (1:43:43) So this would be two examples of mine reading but once I explain it to you, then you’re like, okay (1:43:47) That’s a rational explanation, but I think this is going on a lot (1:43:52) So (1:43:53) Let’s say some friend calls you and you have that experience where you’re like (1:43:56) Oh for some reason they just popped into my head and then they called and the usual skeptic (1:44:03) Explanation for that is this thing called frequency bias like well (1:44:06) You’re thinking about that person way more than you realize probably on a subconscious level (1:44:10) And when they called and you become consciously aware of it (1:44:13) I don’t think that’s what’s going on in some cases and I think some people have had a real (1:44:19) Compelling experience where you know, I have one of those I’ll share with you after yep (1:44:23) So there are a couple things that could be going on (1:44:26) When you understand the brain is being this kind of Bayesian inference machine where it’s (1:44:32) modeling (1:44:34) Things in the world including other people and other minds and it’s making predictions.So for example (1:44:40) It could be the case that let’s say I met someone at a party (1:44:45) 20 years ago and we had a discussion about let’s say we were drunk and we were talking about the the show Twin Peaks and (1:44:54) Then maybe we became really good friends and maybe we don’t even remember that first conversation consciously and then let’s say (1:45:01) There’s a Twin Peaks (1:45:05) Like a spin-off or a marathon, yeah, like that, you know Twin Peaks came back like a couple years ago (1:45:12) This might have happened with some people (1:45:14) but let’s say they see a (1:45:16) ad for it on the internet or commercial on TV without even knowing that primes their thought of the other friend and (1:45:23) that friend might have seen something similar the same commercial or an ad and (1:45:28) Without even remembering that that’s why they thought of you (1:45:31) You both were primed by a common stimulus and then they called you and that you never even recognized what? (1:45:37) You know is the causal (1:45:39) Like origin of that you could also imagine (1:45:43) let’s say that’s for someone you haven’t heard of heard from from a while, but maybe it’s someone you speak to you kind of regularly maybe (1:45:50) like your (1:45:50) your mom calls you on (1:45:54) Sundays and (1:45:56) Wednesdays and Sunday mornings and Wednesday around 7 or something and maybe you don’t recognize that pattern because it’s not really planned (1:46:03) it’s just that she has nothing she’s off work on those days and maybe has like a sort of routine and (1:46:11) Then so like you don’t talk about the actual schedule. She just happens to call on those times. Yeah (1:46:16) Yeah, and then you might be registering a pattern unconsciously because we’re learning patterns all the time and then maybe they don’t (1:46:23) Call once on time (1:46:25) They call like a minute late and like you had the thought of them when they normally call and then they call right after that (1:46:31) What I’m saying is basically we model other agents and then they become little characters in our heads (1:46:37) and they have those patterns and those things we’re basically our mind is a community of (1:46:43) agents and they kind of (1:46:45) interact and communicate with each other so there’s a lot of room for like mind reading once we (1:46:51) Understand that we make these little copies of people in our heads and there’s a whole realm of science.There’s a whole new (1:46:59) World of psychology like (1:47:02) that we can explore when people start (1:47:04) Taking seriously the fact that we model other minds and that our minds really are these communities of agents (1:47:11) And that we see that with our dreams, you know (1:47:13) Are we our friends come alive in our dreams and they have their distinct personalities all that stuff’s encoded (1:47:20) I can tell you one story (1:47:23) Of something I you know, just kind of like a trivial story (1:47:26) I think I’ve had more stories. I’ve had some crazy stories and I have to actually think about it to try to remember them (1:47:32) I imagine a lot of them are like weird enough to where like I haven’t discussed them because I would think you know (1:47:38) I’m gonna lose credibility if I talk about this, but this is just one example based on (1:47:42) What we were just if I may even just before that just let’s jump in there because credibility wise we’re discussing them because we don’t (1:47:51) Understand their believe them. Yeah, we’re just acknowledging that we had an experience (1:47:54) An artist right an artist who comes up with a movie it’s still out of their quote-unquote imagination.What does it matter? (1:48:01) It’s still the experience of the art right? Like this is like an interesting type of artwork (1:48:06) Yeah (1:48:06) And that’s why I really need to write him down because I know I’ve had it, you know (1:48:10) At least a couple times where things so weird have happened that like I’m like this (1:48:15) I have no rational explanation for this, but this is something that’s not like that, but it’s an example (1:48:21) Of how weird it is that we model other people’s minds what I’m arguing is that we can use this maybe as like a strategy (1:48:30) for (1:48:31) Gaining something like mental superpowers and I’ll tell you why I use a provocative word like that. So (1:48:42) Yeah, well this guy Ramanujan so ultimately I’m gonna talk about it’s evolution, you know, we have evolution too, right (1:48:49) You know (1:48:51) Yeah, our brains. Yeah, like (1:48:54) Our minds there’s all these crazy things going on (1:48:58) We model other agents and they’re always kind of updating in our mind.So (1:49:04) We definitely have like a community when we make decisions. Also, I think we think about subconsciously (1:49:11) What the people in our lives would do or our role models given a certain situation? (1:49:18) So we’re always kind of (1:49:20) Decisions are made according to this kind of averaging like a statistical averaging of all the other minds that you’ve modeled (1:49:28) So you just mentioned Ramanujan or something? Is that yeah Ramanujan. So yeah, I’m gonna go there but yeah (1:49:34) So so one example of this that I think is pretty fascinating (1:49:37) Is I had a dream and Bjork was playing in the dream and Bjork’s one of my favorite artists (1:49:42) But the song that was being performed in the dream was not any song in her catalog (1:49:48) It was a original construction by my brain and I’m a musician too.So maybe it’s less surprising (1:49:55) You do by the way, I’m a singer. So maybe we can come awesome. Yeah, that’d be cool (1:49:59) So yeah, so I’ve I’ve made music that’s you know (1:50:02) I attempt to make as brilliant as hers, but this sounded full-on like the best most, you know, interestingly intricately (1:50:11) Orchestrated Bjork song I ever heard with her singing in like standard Bjork (1:50:19) Style in an avian or something (1:50:21) Yeah, yeah, and just the the quirks and her style right like her (1:50:26) It was weird and it was her it wasn’t something that I could consciously come up with in a moment (1:50:33) It’s something that like would seem like it would have to be created by her brain (1:50:38) But what I think my brain has done is created this, you know (1:50:43) model of Bjork through listening to all of her music to where there’s an agent in my head that thinks like her and then (1:50:50) suddenly I have (1:50:52) Kind of supernatural powers.I can create music. That would be Bjork’s best song if I woke up and I was able (1:51:01) if I had taken the time to like (1:51:03) You know because in this dream in particular I woke up and I could still remember it like I had a sense of it (1:51:09) It’s gone now (1:51:10) but I could have potentially written especially if that was something that was my profession in that like I like looked for (1:51:17) Opportunities like that. They always tell you to have like a have a piece of paper and your nightstand (1:51:23) Medians anybody in the arts has to have that to write down because they wake up with (1:51:27) Epiphany after epiphany.Yeah, just shot him down (1:51:30) Yeah, and like Stephen King is written, you know, I’ve seen when I was writing my book and (1:51:37) I have a novel that I’ve written that might come out next year (1:51:42) Basically (1:51:44) He said that it’s kind of like these stories are there and their totality and you’re kind of like a (1:51:51) like a paleontologist kind of like a (1:51:54) Chiseling away like uncovering like a full structure. That’s like already there like when you were talking (1:52:01) I’m sorry. That’s a Michelangelo’s thing about David was there (1:52:05) He just chip away the stone to reveal it right? Isn’t that the same philosophy kind of yeah (1:52:10) I mean, I guess that’s literally what he did.That’s it’s pretty interesting. I think that’s a copy of that, right? (1:52:15) I think he’s I think Stephen King’s plagiarizing. See I’m not a big fan.So no (1:52:20) But I think Michelangelo’s side it goes the art is there it’s just we had to remove the stone to reveal it or something (1:52:26) yeah, and it’s kind of like (1:52:28) Plato ish too. We had this idea of this theory of form. So it’s almost like there are these (1:52:34) abstractions that are (1:52:35) Perfect in there and they’re kind of being impinged on our mind and and Roger Penrose who you mentioned earlier does (1:52:41) Actually, he he does say that in the Emperor’s new mind if you look up in the index like Plato (1:52:46) he talks about how he thinks that’s how mathematicians get their understanding of the world, so my my my (1:52:54) modeling my mental modeling of Bjork gave me superpowers that (1:52:59) Abled my brain to construct this if we had sufficiently advanced (1:53:03) Neuroimaging connected to AI you could have translated that brain activity (1:53:07) Into the musical pattern into the construction of the whole thing.I mean that like you (1:53:13) Someday, we’ll get there and it’ll be really interesting (1:53:16) We are totally on the same literally on the same brainwave because I was gonna ask about fMRI right now, I’m wondering (1:53:23) It’s not at that level, but they can reconstruct what you were thinking and looking at like they did (1:53:32) Images with AI I’m wondering yeah, right. So I’m wondering I once again I have visions (1:53:37) I have a psychic medium who sees people I have people who talk to you know, talk to people (1:53:42) It’s I that’s what the claims are. That’s what they experience.I’m not staining. It’s fact, but the fMRI would be interesting (1:53:50) I wonder if they could draw a vision of that or a picture when I did see (1:53:53) imagining words, right (1:53:55) Imagine you could just while you were dreaming you have that hooked up and you have it hooked up to everyone you could see if (1:54:00) There were like collect your dreams kind of like that. I think that’s coming.I mean, I think I mean so (1:54:08) Well (1:54:09) To wrap up like the last thing I was yeah, I was gonna relate that to Ramanujan (1:54:13) So Ramanujan had all of these crazy theories. There’s some of his equations which weren’t (1:54:21) Validated until string theory was invented all of these crazy things that he had written down in this notebook (1:54:29) And he didn’t find (1:54:31) You know, he didn’t discover these mathematical principles (1:54:35) The way normal mathematicians do where they have this systematic thing where in and they construct (1:54:42) Equations that have proofs and you can basically derive the truth of these (1:54:49) equations from some some proof that that you’ve (1:54:53) Demonstrated that it’s logically (1:54:55) mathematically coherent and (1:54:58) So a lot of this stuff (1:55:00) like if you you know, there’s a movie about him and (1:55:04) If you watch it, you find out like the history like, you know, some of this stuff just sounds crazy on the surface (1:55:10) But there were mathematicians that it was either Cambridge or Oxford (1:55:14) like this one guy who is, you know, really well established who saw that it wasn’t nonsense and (1:55:21) Brought him over there. And so he became famous during his lifetime, but he died pretty young (1:55:27) I (1:55:28) think he got pneumonia or something, but um (1:55:31) He left behind this book and and since they’re not proofs for (1:55:36) some of the (1:55:38) Theories that he constructed, you know, people didn’t know what to think of him and then we find out like a hundred years later (1:55:46) that he was right about all of these things and and no one knows how he’s able to generate these ideas because it’s not the (1:55:54) normal method that any mathematicians use and (1:55:57) He it seems like the biggest missed chance to explore the psychology of (1:56:03) You know the the most interesting (1:56:06) Psychological phenomenon, it’s too bad (1:56:08) He wasn’t this people didn’t push at this point more (1:56:13) but he was asked like where did he get his ideas from and (1:56:17) He I think he was kind of like shy about like he didn’t want to tell any of you know (1:56:21) The people at the Ivy League school (1:56:23) Um (1:56:24) The real answer because he’d sound crazy, but he said he would get the answers from his God (1:56:31) Namagiri who I think was maybe some sort of (1:56:35) manifestation of Shiva like somehow related to Shiva, but he had a Hindu God and (1:56:40) He would either have visions or dreams and he would get (1:56:43) these mathematical insights from his God and what I think is that (1:56:49) It’s possible to model abstract deities (1:56:53) And then you start to think like they think and it can actually (1:56:58) lead to like information that would be God like yeah epiphanies and (1:57:04) Then that leads me to think that we could (1:57:09) Playfully construct these deities and like start to mentally model.I’m like, what would this person? What would be their characteristics? (1:57:16) how would they think and then our (1:57:18) Our subconscious so (1:57:19) Yeah, cuz you literally bring yourself in the shoes of great like it’s like if you put yourself in the shoes of Superman (1:57:25) You could lift a car right like that can’t same kind of like mental (1:57:30) Overcoming of whatever that if you pretty you thought you were Superman and you lived life like that and you would yeah (1:57:37) I mean if you we’ve had people do super natural feet. I mean, I feel like (1:57:42) Yeah, people like David Goggins. I feel like they probably use strategies like that (1:57:46) I mean the power of belief drives you to have a certain tenacity (1:57:52) That can basically make whatever you believe kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy (1:57:58) Yeah, and Ford even said he goes whether you believe it or not.You’re right (1:58:02) Yeah, right whether you believe or whether you believe it can happen or not (1:58:05) You’re right because if you don’t believe it can happen, you’re definitely not gonna make it happen (1:58:09) Yeah, I believe it can happen. You probably can make it happen, right? (1:58:12) So I know you shared so much time with me and I’m sure we’re gonna talk again (1:58:16) would you want to touch up on your new book and your and the quick worldview piece before we close it because I’m just so (1:58:22) grateful for you for the time you shared and (1:58:24) Please tell us how we can get in contact with you and then and we can close on that and call it a night (1:58:29) Yeah, check out my sub stack road to Omega. So it’s basically (1:58:33) the theory that the universe is headed towards this self-aware state called the Omega point and (1:58:37) that point is reached by like the continual progress of life and (1:58:41) The kind of expansion of intelligent agents outward into the cosmos creating this integrated (1:58:48) Intelligent network, that would be something like a cosmic mind (1:58:53) Distributed mind the size of the universe (1:58:56) That’s already happened to some degree on a planetary scale (1:59:00) We formed this thing that’s been called by to our day started in the newest fear (1:59:05) It’s kind of the collective intelligence that emerges from (1:59:09) The human civilization connected by our communication technology, and so it’s called Road to Omega because basically (1:59:18) Self-aware agents like once we become conscious of this process then (1:59:22) we (1:59:24) we’re part of the process and in becoming conscious of the process is part of the process itself and (1:59:31) Then we have to direct our actions.We have to live in such a way to (1:59:36) Continue this process and help the universe wake up or allow, you know (1:59:42) Enable we have to pay it forward. Oh for your eyes pay it back. We do.Yeah, I guess it’s yeah (1:59:48) I’m paying it back in paying it forward and (1:59:52) So the view is one where life has this meaning and purpose but the way I’m framing it I’m (2:00:00) First of all mapping the story on the concepts from Eastern and Western religion (2:00:04) but then I’m taking those concepts and showing how it’s the story of a of a cosmic game and (2:00:10) Alan Watts is a philosopher. That’s all this parallel between Eastern religions and also looking at it from this game type perspective (2:00:16) and when you look at it from that perspective life becomes kind of (2:00:21) psychedelic and and (2:00:23) Not just it’s not just that it makes life trippier, but you start to (2:00:28) Be conscious about your goals and the way you act so it’s kind of like a system for self-optimization (2:00:34) And the way you play the game best is realizing that we’re all in it together (2:00:40) And so we want to we want to basically convert what are called non zero (2:00:44) I mean zero some games which are competitive games where there’s winners and losers (2:00:48) into (2:00:49) Positive some or non zero some games that are cooperative games (2:00:54) So basically we’re all in it together and to solve the existential challenges we face (2:01:01) All the nations have to come together as like a coherent whole under this meaningful and purposeful world view (2:01:07) I think this is the world view that can do it by basically (2:01:10) Showing a correspondence between universal truths between all the religions and then turning that into something like a game (2:01:18) But it’s not a selfish game. It’s a cooperative game where we understand that (2:01:24) What’s good for the individual? (2:01:26) Ultimately should be is also what’s good for the whole and vice versa and (2:01:34) We really need this mentality right now more than ever because (2:01:38) everything’s more we’re more divided and politically polarized and you’ve ever been in recent times and (2:01:46) The good news is that those conditions (2:01:50) All that chaos is kind of what creates the conditions for the world view like this to emerge (2:01:56) it’s part of this process of (2:01:59) Finding solutions to problems this evolutionary process.So I think this world view (2:02:04) Will have success, you know, it will inevitably be the world view of (2:02:10) Humanity, but we don’t want to go through a disaster in a civilization (2:02:16) Civilizational collapse to learn that that a world view of unity is the right one. So (2:02:22) We’re on a trajectory towards collapse, but the trajectory also (2:02:28) favors (2:02:30) adaptive agents that (2:02:31) Recognize and you know this trajectory and averted so the the trajectory is one of progress (2:02:38) But progress occurs by humans trying to avoid disaster (2:02:44) So, yeah, that’s what the new book is about (2:02:47) basically saying that the evolutionary process is (2:02:50) spiritual because it’s a process of nature coming to understand itself through us and (2:02:56) We have this cosmic responsibility to see that that process continues (2:03:01) That’s awesome. Are you familiar with Samuel T Wilkinson by any chance? No, I don’t think so (2:03:07) Okay, so I had the I the honor of seeing him at Freedom Fest actually a couple days ago and he’s a Yale psychologist (2:03:13) He just wrote a book called purpose what evolution and human nature imply about the meaning of our existence (2:03:20) I love the time and he actually came he came to your exact kind of not conclusion (2:03:25) But just general conclusion of we started with the individual the selfish right the selfish gene (2:03:30) even we spoke at Dawkins in the selfish gene and (2:03:33) It’s the selflessness the compassion that is gonna allow us to actually expand because once we start thinking (2:03:40) Individually, it’s great.We got to put a mask on ourselves, but that’s only so we can help put the mask on the other person (2:03:46) It’s not to let the other person die in first so we can live (2:03:49) We need to still follow through with that other part, right? (2:03:52) That’s second part (2:03:53) Perhaps I can get you to in touch because I I do have a podcast upcoming with him and maybe that might be a very interesting (2:03:59) Conversation I can share with you the link to his book or whatever. Yeah, it sounds very cool. Totally in line, but I just (2:04:07) I’m I’m just so grateful for the conversation.Like I said this week has been absolutely amazing for me (2:04:12) I just am so grateful for you (2:04:15) because I’m just starting out here trying to make an impact and I just want to share your vision and (2:04:22) I got to speak with Michael Schellenberger for 15 minutes and I got to speak with Brett Weinstein ask him a question this week (2:04:27) And Mihaela, oh, yeah. Oh Larry. I’m sorry.Oh Leroy. She’s an AI person and Richard (2:04:34) I mean, I have talked to all these people and (2:04:37) Bobby, thank you so much. You yeah, keep doing what you’re doing (2:04:41) There’s a lot of fun.I look forward to new episodes and (2:04:45) Let’s do it again sometime (2:04:47) Thank you so much. I look forward to that (2:04:49) I I hope we can start a comment corresponds about those other things you discussed because I I think I’ve got some ideas (2:04:55) I’m like already thinking about ways we can talk about the conspiracy stuff because I’ve been wanting to do that forever (2:05:00) So I even do some so Bobby Azarian. Thank you again (2:05:04) Do you have any finishing thought any final thought last word of wisdom for the youth to let us know where we’re going or what? (2:05:11) Where we’re headed or what we can do (2:05:14) And I think I’ve shared all my wisdom I’m always looking for more but uh (2:05:19) Yeah (2:05:20) Road to a mega sub stack has all these ideas.I’ll be posting something on that meta religion this week. So (2:05:27) sign up (2:05:29) subscribe (2:05:31) Support the sub stack the more support I get the more articles I can publish and (2:05:36) Yeah, I’ll be back (2:05:38) Yeah, and feel free to use the place from which everything came (2:05:42) Please feel free to use that because I found that just a great label lists like definition of everything (2:05:48) So it is Brahman. Yeah, check out the absolute by Hegel and Brahman and it’s the same thing (2:05:56) Thank you again (2:05:57) Bobby Azarian stick around because I just got to click this and make sure it takes but thank you again for joining me (2:06:02) on Knocked Conscious (2:06:22) I hate to leave you, but I really must say good night, sweetheart