Transcript for my conversation with Pinder Singh of Curious Expression Podcast 4/4/2024

Speaker 1: Pinder Singh

Speaker 2: Mark Puls

[Speaker 2] (0:21 - 0:39)

Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Knocked Conscious. Today I had the pleasure of speaking with Pinder Singh of Curious Expression Podcast. It's a great conversation, here it is, I hope you enjoy it.

All right Pinder, welcome to Knocked Conscious my friend.

[Speaker 1] (0:41 - 1:08)

Hey, happy to be here. So you have a podcast, Curious Expression, is that correct? That is correct.

CuriousExpression.com, tell us a little bit about yourself. I was honored to be on your show a couple of weeks ago and you were kind to return the favor, so welcome. The shirt is for you, the UFO shirt, it's a comedy mothership from Joe Rogan's website or podcast or comedy show or whatever.

[Speaker 2] (1:08 - 1:16)

So this is officially the one for today's conversation. I felt it, you know, reaching into the closet, I knew we had to do that.

[Speaker 1] (1:17 - 4:25)

Yes, that's the right word for the alien talk. Exactly, I know you've got a list ready. So first of all, I'd love to hear about, tell me just about Curious Expression, how it started, how you got the name, and you're like 20 in and you just started, so tell me about this like roller coaster rock, like rocket ship that you're doing.

Yeah, so I started Curious Expression last year in September, just basically I had wanted to do a podcast for a long time, just been busy with other life stuff. I was married four years ago, for example, it's been busy. But I finally got to a point where, you know, I felt like I had the time and the know how to kind of finally start doing it.

And so in September, I turned 31. And I was like, well, you know, I'm 31. Now or never, right?

So I decided to put everything together, did my first episode and everything. I've been going strong since then. Like I said, I got about 20 episodes or so now published.

I've actually recorded up to 30 something. I just haven't gone through all of them yet. But yeah, having a lot of fun.

The show is basically about bringing a lot of interesting guests on the show and just kind of talking about them about whatever they happen to be expert in and just learning from them with the ultimate goal of, you know, spreading knowledge and just kind of improving oneself. And the name Curious Expression actually comes from an alien movie. Yeah, so yeah, so there's a movie called K-Pax.

I don't know if you've seen it. Yeah, I love K-Pax. I have a hard time watching Kevin Spacey with all the allegations, but I know he's been absolved of some.

So we talked about that, I think last time, but I want to hear it. Tell me about K-Pax, because I love that movie with Jeff Bridges, right? Yeah, yeah.

So K-Pax is an old movie, I believe, from 2001. Basically, Kevin Spacey plays an alien, but that looks like a human being, though. And essentially, the plot is that this alien shows up randomly in a subway station and from there gets arrested.

And he basically, the cops kind of think he's crazy because he kind of starts talking about how like he says, like, oh, you know, your planet is so bright. So they think he's crazy. And then that's where they send him to the psychiatric facility.

And that's where Jeff Bridges, playing the psychiatric doctor, basically starts evaluating him. And there's this whole thing about trying to figure out, you know, is he really an alien, or is he just somebody that, you know, has a maybe like a disturbing past or something that's causing him to kind of take on this persona of being an alien from K-Pax. And so the name Curious Expression actually comes from a scene where it's when the psychiatric doctor first meets a prot, who's the alien.

And the doctor basically says, you know, have a seat. And prot's response is, have a seat, Curious Expression. And I just took that and kind of like it.

No, it's totally awesome.

[Speaker 2] (4:25 - 4:44)

I love how people come up with some of those stories and to connect that totally humanizes kind of your whole concept of everything. You're open-minded to all just ideas. And I did flip through kind of some of your, some of your episodes to see just some of the people you had on.

[Speaker 1] (4:44 - 4:51)

And we had a couple that kind of paralleled each other, but a couple of people have reached out to me to join and you reached out to me.

[Speaker 2] (4:51 - 5:02)

It was your name, the Curious Expression part that actually compelled me to reach back out to you. I don't generally do ones about myself very often.

[Speaker 1] (5:02 - 5:26)

So it's the curious part, right? Because I always said it's the curiosity that's just that infinite curiosity, just wanting to understand. You don't even have to adopt it.

You just have to hear it. You know, you just want to hear what's out there, what's available. So thanks for sharing that story.

That's great. Yeah, no problem. So 20 in, but you've done 30 and they're long.

They're hour and a half, hour to two hours, right? They're pretty, they're pretty long podcasts.

[Speaker 2] (5:26 - 5:31)

So it makes sense that you're, it takes a lot of time to kind of go through them and edit them the way you want.

[Speaker 1] (5:32 - 6:39)

Yeah, it does take a while, but you know, you get through it. Yeah. So of the, you've done it since then, your birthday's in September.

Is that what you said? Yeah. Do you mind if I ask what day, what date?

September 24th. Okay. 24th.

My girlfriend's 27. I'm the 30th. My co-host was the 14th.

Her best friend's the 13th. So like, we're all over the place in September, man. Everybody had sex, I guess, on New Year's, right?

So 30 in, what's one of the funniest or coolest stories you could share of the episodes you've done so far? Any things completely stick out for you? Honestly, the most, I would say, out there stories actually came from your episode.

I would say that you had some very, definitely some unique stories to tell. I enjoyed listening to them. I think there's a lot of things we can learn from your stories.

I think a lot of the stuff that you mentioned, I think, is happening to you for a reason. And yeah, I really enjoyed your stuff.

[Speaker 2] (6:40 - 7:26)

Oh, that was very kind. I did not expect that. I expected some actual heightened ideas, but thank you.

That's very kind. It's funny because I listen back and I hate listening to myself. But because when I talk after I'm done, I think I sounded crazy.

And then I listen to it again and I go, okay, I sounded crazy, but I just sounded open-minded crazy, not bought-in crazy. So I'm still kind of trying to adjust the tinfoil cap just about right to make it fit. But thank you.

That's very kind. Any interesting ideas or other stories that stuck out, maybe from a learned perspective, maybe some words of advice or anything that you learned over the episodes you've done?

[Speaker 1] (7:27 - 8:12)

Yeah, so I would say another interesting episode was I had an episode with a guy named Simon. He's basically a computer scientist. And he talked about this idea that he has called the platonic computer.

Essentially, the idea is that, so Plato, the philosopher, he used to have this idea that basically every object that exists here in our reality is basically like a shadow or an imitation of the real thing that actually exists in what's called the platonic realm. And this is the cave, the analogy of the shadow in the cave? No, so that's Plato's cave.

That's actually a different thing.

[Speaker 2] (8:13 - 8:21)

Okay, I just want to make sure that that's not that because it kind of seems similar to that concept. But it is slightly different. That's why I want to make sure we differentiate those two.

[Speaker 1] (8:22 - 9:31)

Yeah, so the platonic realm idea is that basically, so for example, we take something like a chair, you and I both kind of have an idea of what a chair looks like and is right. But the idea is that every chair that exists here in this reality is kind of like a cheap imitation, basically, of what the perfect chair is. And that perfect chair kind of exists in this platonic realm that we can't really access, or at least don't have immediate access to here in this reality.

And so Simon's idea was that basically, the universe is being computed. And it's being computed by this supercomputer, essentially, that exists in this platonic reality. That is very interesting.

So what we're talking about is the ideal object of the thing we've imitated. Yeah, so like every, so like here, for example, we have like normal computers, right? And we can use them to generate virtual realities like video games, things like that, right?

And so the idea is that there's a kind of like a perfect or supercomputer in this platonic reality realm that's generating our reality here. Right.

[Speaker 2] (9:32 - 9:33)

So simulation theory, basically.

[Speaker 1] (9:34 - 10:18)

Yeah, basically simulation theory. And admittedly, I've studied into that. Is that something you started to delve into a little bit?

Yeah, so I've always been interested in simulation theory for two reasons. One, I've always just been interested in like spiritual stuff. And spirituality is filled with this concept that the reality here is not the be-all end-all and that there's a next thing that you kind of go into.

So that's like simulation theory already. But then there's like stuff like the Matrix movies that also kind of talk about how, aside from a spiritual point, there could be just a scientific reason to potentially believe that our reality is being created artificially.

[Speaker 2] (10:19 - 10:38)

Okay, so let's just, taking a step back, wouldn't you just say that in a lot, in some of the theories, like alien replaces quote-unquote God. Like over time, like they created the simulation that is our world, just like some people believe that God created this world.

[Speaker 1] (10:40 - 11:00)

Is that something similar to that or? Well, Simon's idea was actually that aliens and also UFOs are actually from a different virtual space than us. So basically, he had this idea of frequencies.

So we're on like, let's say frequency A and these other beings.

[Speaker 2] (11:00 - 11:09)

That would lead to interdimensional abilities. So if we're in a certain frequency, we would see all those things in that frequency or in that range that we would be living in.

[Speaker 1] (11:10 - 11:43)

Yeah, and so just like radio frequency, sometimes there's like interference. And his thinking is that maybe the reason why some of these paranormal experiences happen sometimes is that the frequencies are kind of touching each other or crossing over, if you will. And then that's when we maybe will see these entities or see their vehicles that they are supposedly operating.

That's very cool. So that must have been a fun conversation. How long did that one turn out to be?

About an hour. About an hour? Okay, great, cool.

So tell me a little bit about yourself. Where are you from, your upbringing?

[Speaker 2] (11:44 - 11:51)

I know you're saying it's as good a time as any to do it. And I was 10 years older than you, probably 15 when I started.

[Speaker 1] (11:51 - 12:35)

It took me like two years. I built everything because I'm one of those who had to be perfect. I didn't think I'd just hit record and go.

Did you run into any of those issues when you started yours or did you just take off and just furiously move forward? I mean, obviously, there was some struggle in the beginning, just because I had never done it before. It's a totally new art form for me.

And I also didn't have the necessary equipment and stuff. So when I first started, I was just using whatever was around. So the camera that came with my laptop that I had at the time, my Apple headphones for audio and hearing.

And then after I did about two or three episodes, I was like, OK, I think I can do this like for real.

[Speaker 2] (12:35 - 12:35)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (12:36 - 13:37)

And then that's when I went to Best Buy and got like the real stuff, like the HD camera and this mic that I'm speaking into right now and headphones and everything. And yeah, once I got all that stuff, you know, it's kind of gung ho and just been doing it since then. That's awesome.

That's awesome. So, yeah, family, anything about your background, anything that led you to starting something like this? Um, well, so I've always been focused on personal growth.

I've read a lot of books about personal development, things like that. You could call it self-help, if you will. And so I've always been focused on learning and just kind of evolving myself as much as possible.

I also like challenging myself. And so this was just something that I really wanted to do because I had listened to some podcasts prior and I just loved learning a lot of stuff. And so I thought, hey, you know, I think I could probably do this, too.

And, you know, it'll benefit me, but more importantly, also benefit other people because they can watch the episodes, learn about something and then maybe implement it in their life. That's really cool. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (13:37 - 14:01)

Something you can pick and then share it and maybe create become like a bridge between some concept that is not understood to someone who can understand it, you know, kind of translating it in a way. It's a lot of that. So so speaking of podcasts, what are some of the ones that you have on your list when you just click, you just listen through?

What are what are some of the ones that you would share, recommend that you would listen to?

[Speaker 1] (14:01 - 14:57)

Yeah, I actually just found a new podcast about I want to say two weeks ago. It's called Punk Rock MBA, Punk Rock MBA. So I like rock music.

And this guy, apologies, I'm forgetting his name right now. But he basically does videos about rock music, rock history, the changes in the genre from like the 80s to present day. I was just watching an episode yesterday about how emo culture had kind of started and how it faded and now how it's supposedly kind of coming back and like tick tock area and stuff like that.

So that's a really cool one that I recently found. I recommend checking that one out. But prior to that, I was mostly listening to like popular ones like Joe Rogan.

His is great. Lex Friedman, Chris Williamson. I forget what his show is called.

[Speaker 2] (14:58 - 14:58)

Yeah. Modern wisdom.

[Speaker 1] (14:59 - 15:06)

Modern wisdom. Yeah. Yeah.

His is really good. He actually just hit two million subscribers. I don't know if you saw that for him.

Yeah. Congratulations.

[Speaker 2] (15:07 - 15:10)

It's funny. I actually watched him on Love Island.

[Speaker 1] (15:10 - 15:12)

Oh, did you? Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (15:12 - 15:17)

I watched that show back in the day. It's one of those guilty pleasures I watch with my ex. What?

[Speaker 1] (15:17 - 15:27)

Which season was he on? Because I watched that show. It was a British one before.

It was never the American one. There was a British. Oh, OK.

So it's all the ones that are like ITV four.

[Speaker 2] (15:28 - 15:38)

Oh, I see. If I find it, if I find the season, I'll look for it. I'll I'll I'll send it over to you.

I think it means like an early one, I think. And he was like just some F boy.

[Speaker 1] (15:38 - 15:42)

And then he kind of just, you know, and it's kind of interesting.

[Speaker 2] (15:42 - 16:47)

We go into that because it's like I realize a lot of these new people who are able to have these enlightened areas have the time, the finances, the resources to become enlightened. And I think the struggle is to hold down a nine to five on a podcast like we're doing, which everyone probably started that way. Please let me not be.

It's not resentment at all. Everyone has to start at the beginning. Right.

But it's like I've seen like, you know, don't get me wrong. Rogan's is awesome. But, you know, he did he worked his butt off to get where he got.

But he also he also made the most of every single opportunity, which is rare. You don't always get someone who gets to do that. So being able to do that, watching it look back is like he he didn't overextend himself.

And now he's comfortable almost, you know, he's able to grow because he's comfortable with the challenge for us is like we're at the point where we're are we ever going to get to the point where we have that comfortableness to grow or is it always going to be discomfort? Are we always trading one thing for another?

[Speaker 1] (16:48 - 17:12)

Yeah. Well, I think when it comes to pursuing success, you know, everybody has to start wherever they're at. Right.

And like you said, I think most people just start in a situation where maybe they do still have their nine to five and they're just squeezing out any time that they have to kind of get their their ball rolling, essentially. And, you know, if you happen to, you know, get God's grace, you know, maybe you'll be as big as, you know, Joe Rogan.

[Speaker 2] (17:13 - 17:19)

Yeah. I mean, look, he's earned it. There's no there's there's nothing to take away from any of it.

It's crazy how all of them are.

[Speaker 1] (17:19 - 17:28)

And it's interesting what what niche is, because you chose something that has a following, but it's a specific following.

[Speaker 2] (17:28 - 17:38)

You know what I mean? Like when it comes to like the UFO's parent, some of the paranormal, some of the open minded ideas that you have. So did you have any on the list that we wanted to hash out or anything you wanted to share?

[Speaker 1] (17:38 - 18:12)

We could go down the list and start talking about whatever you want, man. Well, so you asked my background earlier, so I do have a heritage or traditional background of Sikhism. I don't know if you want to dive into that.

Yeah, I'd love to hear about that. We we discussed it a little bit on on the other podcast, but I did want to hear about your your faith, because I my challenge, I spoke out the anti-theism and I know you clipped it. And I wanted to clarify part of that, because my anti-theism has nothing to do with my faith.

[Speaker 2] (18:12 - 18:45)

It has to do with the human bastardization of what faith is and what it means for me through some interpreter, just like the government would be an interpreter of how I should live my life. Like it's my personal opinion that we should be able to get together without interference from other entities. So to clarify, my anti-theist statement is much more because of the man made.

The man made portions of it, like the Catholic entity or the you know, those types of things, not the faith itself.

[Speaker 1] (18:45 - 19:37)

So with that said, Sikhism really fascinates me because a lot of it paralleled. I saw like you have five tenets and there's almost seven deadly sins, a kind of Venn diagram, but they don't. So tell me about it, because you've been practicing this your whole life, right?

No, actually. So yeah, so let me kind of, I guess, tell my story a little bit and then I'll kind of dive into Sikhism. So growing up, you know, my parents were from India, immigrants.

They obviously had a lot on their mind, like, you know, getting their first jobs here in the U.S., making sure there's food on the table, things like that. So while they tried teaching me about my heritage and traditional background, wasn't necessarily on the top of the list at the time when I was growing up. And so I didn't know.

[Speaker 2] (19:37 - 19:44)

No, it's like survival, right? You're kind of trading your survival for those other cultural type things that you don't have time for.

[Speaker 1] (19:44 - 22:00)

Right, right. And so growing up, I didn't have, unfortunately, a good understanding of Sikhism and Sikh history and all that stuff and the practices. I did go to what's called a Gurdwara once in a while on a Sunday, which is basically a Sikh place of worship.

But I didn't really know what was going on or why I was doing what I was doing and that kind of stuff. But I knew it was there. And so then later in my life, among my teenage years, I finally kind of started getting into a little bit about like, you know, is there more to life than just, you know, material existence and science and things like that?

Did something happen to you in the teenage years? Because that seems almost a little ahead of the curve of the finding yourself. I know I know that's kind of the start, but it's like really early for that search.

How did that how did that come or how did that build? Yeah, I'm not going to get too much into this, but basically there was a lot of personal stuff going on in my family at the time. And when that kind of stuff is going on, you know, you start asking yourself, like, why is this happening?

Is there good in the world? Things like that. Yeah, we don't need to get into specifics, but generally there were some forces that kind of made you question.

Yeah, there was some personal stuff going on at the time. And so I just kind of started wanting to look a little bit deeper to just see if there was any meaning to life beyond what I could see and touch and all that stuff. And so basically when I got this, I guess, inkling to want to search for more, I started with my friends.

So my friends were mostly Christians and Catholics in my small town that I grew up. Shout out to Carothers. And so I kind of started with them like, hey, I noticed you guys are Christians.

Like, what do you guys believe? And why do you guys believe in all this stuff? And they knew some stuff, but to my surprise, they weren't super into their faiths and didn't really know a whole lot.

So then I kind of took matters into my own hands and started just reading stuff online as much as I could. And back then dial-up was still like the big thing. So it wasn't like today where, you know, you have artificial intelligence.

Got the little sections of the PDF as it came through.

[Speaker 2] (22:00 - 22:04)

I don't even know if it was a PDF back then. It might've been just a doc or something.

[Speaker 1] (22:06 - 22:34)

Yeah. But luckily, you know, Wikipedia, I think, was still around at that time. And there was TV too.

We had cable. And so I could find like channels that we were maybe talking about Christianity, things like that. And so I found out some information about Christianity and Catholicism.

And then one day I saw this movie. It's called Jesus of Nazareth. I don't know if you've ever seen it.

It's like eight hours long. It just basically covers Jesus' entire life.

[Speaker 2] (22:35 - 22:35)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (22:35 - 22:48)

I think it was like a miniseries on TV for a while. I think once, I think. Yeah.

Yeah. It started off as a miniseries, but I think they were showing it as a whole movie at one point. Yeah, they did.

It's like the right stuff for like Stephen King's The Stand.

[Speaker 2] (22:48 - 22:51)

They did a miniseries and then they just clumped the hours all together.

[Speaker 1] (22:53 - 24:48)

Yeah. And so I watched that movie and I thought it was a really powerful story. And after that, I kind of was like, OK, you know, here's what the Christians think.

What do other people think? Like Buddhists, people from Islam, things like that. So I started diving into other religions.

And about this time, I was maybe in my like early 20s, I would say maybe like 20 years old-ish. And then in college, around my junior years now, I'm like maybe 22, 23. I kind of just was like, well, I've learned about all these faiths.

Maybe I should learn about my own, you know, my cultural history and tradition and all that stuff. What's our opinion? Right.

And so one day I was just bored in the library. I finished, you know, my schoolwork or whatever. And I jumped on Wikipedia and I just started reading everything I could about Sikhism.

And I had this very powerful moment because I remember in college, I was kind of confused. I didn't really know who I was and what I kind of wanted to do with my life and all that kind of stuff. And when I learned about Sikhism, there was this powerful moment where I kind of basically kind of like learned like, whoa, like this is who I am.

You know, this is everything that my great ancestors and all that kind of stuff did. And they did some amazing stuff, which I'll get into. And so it just kind of changed my whole worldview in the sense that I kind of felt more comfortable in my own skin and knew kind of like who I was now and what I needed to kind of do in life and which direction I needed to go.

So in a way, you were able to, if I were, for lack of a better term, just like, like, kind of like let go. Like, yeah, I would say you hear, you hear things like Jesus, take the wheel.

[Speaker 2] (24:48 - 25:12)

You're like, God is my copilot, right? Like these types of things. I've admit personally, I've never been there.

Admittedly, I struggle with that constantly, but I admire that people get to these points. Like just because I, I admired whether I, whether I, you know, agree with it or whether I share it or not, this is such an admirable trait.

[Speaker 1] (25:12 - 26:21)

So is that kind of where you were to like, actually like let go and kind of like let the guidance? Yeah, I would say once I learned about Sikhism at that point, I was kind of like, okay, this is something that I want to be. Maybe like that's the center of my life in the sense that I now kind of want God to kind of be like the top priorities, so to speak.

And so from there, since then, I've just basically been learning as much as I can about Sikhism. Luckily around that time, there was an individual named, I think his name was Jagraj Singh. He had started a YouTube channel called Basics of Sikhi, where he started explaining Sikhism in English.

And I started watching his videos. And from there, just watching a video a day, literally, sometimes more than one in a day, just basically absorbed as much as I could. And so today I would consider myself not, you know, like 100% practicing Sikhism, but I would say that I have at least a good grasp of its concepts, its history, and I would consider myself a Sikh today.

Okay.

[Speaker 2] (26:21 - 26:26)

And what is the place of worship called? So I don't misspeak or anything.

[Speaker 1] (26:26 - 26:34)

Yes. So I'll pronounce it kind of slowly. So it's a Guru Dwara.

Okay. So the Guru Dwara, right?

[Speaker 2] (26:35 - 26:36)

Yeah. So it's two words.

[Speaker 1] (26:36 - 26:55)

So one is Guru and then Dwara. So Guru Dwara basically means like door to the Guru. So the idea is when you're visiting a Sikh place of worship, you're basically trying to connect with our Guru.

So how many locations are there for you?

[Speaker 2] (26:55 - 27:00)

Do you actually go to a Guru Dwara or are there none around you?

[Speaker 1] (27:01 - 27:22)

Yeah. So there's actually one around here where I live, but there's Guru Dwaras basically all around the world. The most famous is, it's called the Golden Temple.

It's in a place called Amritsar. That's like, I guess you could say the number one Guru Dwara in the world.

[Speaker 2] (27:22 - 27:25)

Yeah. I think I've heard of that location.

[Speaker 1] (27:25 - 27:33)

Well, I'm just saying, do you actually get to go to the Guru Dwara then? You get to actually go weekly or do you not attend?

[Speaker 2] (27:33 - 27:33)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (27:33 - 28:34)

It's just kind of like how you would go to church. You go on Sunday or you can go any day. They're open 24 seven, Monday through, well, actually every day, seven days a week.

Wow. Yeah. Have you ever spoken at it or done anything with the organization at all or with the religion?

Um, so I've never been on like any committees or anything making speeches, but I do try to do Seva when I can. So Seva is a word that means selfless service. So the idea is that you're supposed to kind of put down your ego and basically serve humanity.

And so I try to do Seva when I can. And then I'll like meditate and things like that there. That's amazing.

Cool. So now that we've opened that door to it, tell us, tell us about it. What, what is Sikhism?

Tell me the beauty, the beautiful tenets that you really hold dear and, and what we can learn from it.

[Speaker 2] (28:35 - 28:41)

I mean, it's a, it sounds such like a, sounds such a beautiful way of expressing one's faith.

[Speaker 1] (28:41 - 28:42)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (28:42 - 28:45)

Cause you hear so many different ways, you know what I mean? So, yeah.

[Speaker 1] (28:45 - 30:01)

So I'll try my best to give an accurate historical summary of Sikhism. So Sikhism basically started about 500-ish years ago. The founder of Sikhism, a guy named Guru Nanak, he was born around 1469, if I remember correctly.

And so basically around that time period, so we're talking India, think Northwestern India. And basically around that time in the late 1400s, there is a lot of conflict going on. And the reason why there's conflict going on is basically there's this empire called the Mughal Empire was basically making its way into India and kind of trying to take over the show, if you will.

And the emperors of that empire followed Islam. And unfortunately, these specific individuals that were part of this empire, they had the idea of basically wanting to increase their power, right? And so one thing that they were doing was basically they started forcing people to accept Islam.

And if they didn't, there was like penalties that you had to kind of face.

[Speaker 2] (30:02 - 30:11)

Well, did it get to the point where it was Muhammad, where it was just absolute genocide, if you didn't, it was a convert or die at this point, or was it more indentured servitude?

[Speaker 1] (30:11 - 31:00)

There were definitely situations where people lost their lives. Two of our gurus actually lost their lives, unfortunately, during those times. So, okay, so there's this kind of conflict situation going on.

And there's also religious quarrels, like, for example, in Hinduism, there's different branches of Hinduism. And this Hindu thinks they're better than this other Hindu. This Muslim thinks they're better than this other Muslim.

And then Muslims think they're better than Hindus. Hindus think they're better than Muslims. There's a whole lot of that going on, right?

I think it's called tribalism. Yeah, I think we've seen that. Yeah.

It's a very deeply embedded human, it's got to be an evolutionary biological advantage, because we had to stick together.

[Speaker 2] (31:00 - 31:06)

And if we didn't, we were going to die. So we were going to throw out whatever didn't keep us together. I mean, it totally kind of makes sense.

[Speaker 1] (31:07 - 31:55)

Yeah. And there's also people losing their faith, right? Because there's hard times.

And there's also this empire that just kind of came out of nowhere, starting to take things over, people are losing hope, right? And so what happens is, at least according to our tradition, God kind of hears the cries of humanity, hears people's prayers. And in response to all that, in an action of, I guess, compassion, if you will, sends a child into the world.

And that child is Guru Nanak. And so Guru Nanak, basically, he's a little, I'll say strange when he's born. For example, when he was born, tradition says that he was smiling or laughing, which normally a baby doesn't do.

[Speaker 2] (31:56 - 31:56)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (31:56 - 33:44)

Yeah. And then throughout his life, he had situations that were kind of seen as, you could say mystical, maybe. So for example, there's a story of him, I guess, sleeping, and there's this cobra that kind of comes near him.

And rather than biting him, it actually kind of opens up above his head kind of to give him shade. And so that's kind of like a story to kind of show how he was kind of, I guess, maybe different from your average person, and that he had maybe had kind of like God's light kind of inside of him. And then he's also, I don't want to say anti establishment, but he's basically trying to show people what the truth is, according to what he understands.

And the idea is that, you know, God kind of sent him. So he kind of has understandings that maybe we don't necessarily have. So there's stories like, for example, when he was in school, he would ask his teacher kind of like, while he was learning the alphabet, he would ask, like, you know, what does this letter mean?

And the teacher would kind of get surprised, like, oh, no students ever asked me what the letter actually means, you know. Right. Right.

And so then Guru Nanak. I feel like you were one of those kids in school, too, like the wires that just like sit in the back and be quiet. Well, at least in my head.

And so, you know, Guru Nanak would kind of like explain to the teacher like, oh, this letter means this and this letter means that. And there was there's a story where he he basically needs to do the ceremony. And the ceremony kind of marks like his you could kind of think of it as like maybe like a bar mitzvah type of event.

[Speaker 2] (33:44 - 33:46)

Like an ascension to adulthood or something.

[Speaker 1] (33:46 - 34:10)

Yeah. And so the family that he's kind of a part of in the culture basically says that when you reach a certain age, you have to tie this bracelet on your hand. And that bracelet is supposed to indicate to others that you're part of this specific caste and that you're kind of you could say above others.

Right. And he kind of doesn't want to do it. He's kind of rebellious in that sense.

[Speaker 2] (34:11 - 34:21)

Very Buddha like. I mean, Buddha was a prince who shed or, you know, shed all his glories or whatever and lived on the streets. Right.

So.

[Speaker 1] (34:21 - 34:35)

Yeah. Well, so one of the reasons why he doesn't want to wear the bracelet is because he kind of asked, like, can my sister wear this? And they basically give him a flat no that she's not allowed to wear this.

And so he's like, well, if my sister can't put this on his older sister, if my sister can't put this on, then I'm not going to wear it either.

[Speaker 2] (34:36 - 34:36)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (34:37 - 35:55)

And so he ends up not putting it on. And there's other stories like that where he's kind of basically seen to be different. And he's kind of trying to teach people that your practices are essentially a little backward and that here's how things kind of should be done.

And this is kind of how what's right, basically. For example, another story, just real quick, I'll mention it. There's a.

Oh, no, there's no quick here, man. Take take all the time you want. That's what we're here for is to have this conversation.

So there's a story where he's kind of in a river and there's these people that are practicing their ancestral tradition of basically throwing water towards the sun, towards the east. And the idea is that you're kind of feeding your ancestors when you're doing that. And Guru Nanak kind of sees people doing this and he's like, this is not right.

And this is kind of foolish. And so he basically walks into the river where they're at and he starts throwing water in the opposite direction. So he's throwing it west.

Right. And the people are trying to prove his point, basically. Yeah.

And that was kind of like a unique quality of his where he wouldn't necessarily try to argue with people. He would just do things to kind of do the opposite.

[Speaker 2] (35:55 - 35:56)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (35:56 - 36:55)

To show people how maybe they're misunderstanding something. And so he starts throwing water to the west. Oh, sorry.

Go ahead. Did you want to say something? I was just going to say so he actually was the change that he wanted to see in the world.

Like he literally absolutely. It's kind of like a predecessor to that kind of ideology, I guess. Or I don't want to say ideology because that's such a twisted word now.

But yeah. And so he's throwing water to the west and people kind of look at him and think he's weird. And so they're like, hey, what are you doing?

Why are you throwing water in the wrong direction towards the west? Right. And it's like, oh, I'm just trying to feed my plants that are growing back in my village.

And the people kind of look at him funny and they're like, are you like, you know, stupid or something like you can't feed your plants that are in your home village by throwing water from here. And he's like, well, if I can't feed my plants back home by throwing water in that direction, how do you guys think that you're feeding your ancestors that are in the spirit world or whatever? Yeah.

And so he kind of.

[Speaker 2] (36:55 - 36:55)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (36:56 - 40:37)

So it's like those epiphany things. Right. Yeah.

Epiphany. So he had stories like that pretty much throughout his life. And then when he was in his early 30s, he had this experience that basically set him on, I guess you could say, a new course.

And so basically what happened was one day he was by a river with his friend and out of nowhere, his friend kind of starts looking around and he notices, oh, I can't find good on it. And so he starts looking for him and he still can't find him. And, you know, he thinks the worst has happened, right?

Like maybe good or not drowned in the river or something. Right. And so he starts searching in the water, can't find him.

So then he starts panicking, goes to the village, tells the village, hey, you know, good or not, it's missing. I can't find him. He disappeared.

And so the whole village looks and basically they can't find him. And they kind of conclude this guy has died. And so three days pass.

And after those three days, good or not, it comes back out of nowhere. And he basically says, hey, I was for three while I was gone. I went to a place called such kind.

So such kind translates to the realm of truth. And it is the belief in stichism that such kind is where God, you could say, you can meet God face to face, essentially. That's where God is in his source.

That's the starting origin. That's where God is. And so he basically tells everybody, hey, I was in this place called such kind, the realm of truth.

I basically interacted with God and God basically gave me instruction. And that instruction was to do something called japnam. And what japnam means is to chant God's name.

And so he's basically given the order or the command to spread God's name and God's teachings throughout the world. And his first, I guess, teaching, you could say, after he came back, was he has this phrase that he's famous for, which is no Hindu, no Muslim, or another way to say it is no Hindu, no Muslim. And the reason why he was saying that was because he wanted to teach this concept of oneness.

Because it was basically Guru Nanak's understanding after he had his experience that everything was one. And so after that point, he basically tried to teach people that there's only one reality, and that reality is God, and that we need to essentially set aside our differences, and just basically chant God's name so that we can connect with this divine source and understand true reality, essentially. And so from there, he starts going on these journeys, and people start calling him, you know, a guru, because he's seen as somebody that's very wise.

He has this story where he had traveled to Mecca, and he was laying on the floor, his feet were towards the Kaaba. So the Kaaba, for those that don't know, is this, it's like a black cube looking object that's in the center of Mecca. And essentially, it's a very holy place for Muslims.

And so Guru Nanak, you know, he's laying down outside of Mecca, and his feet are pointing towards it. And there was an individual that was passing along, and kind of got dismayed at Guru Nanak.

[Speaker 2] (40:37 - 40:39)

It's like an insult, right?

[Speaker 1] (40:39 - 40:40)

Yeah, like an insult, basically.

[Speaker 2] (40:41 - 40:41)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (40:42 - 42:28)

So he kind of thought Guru Nanak was like, essentially like a punk. Right, like dissing him, right? Yeah, dissing them, essentially.

And so he's like, hey, you know, why are you doing this, and all this kind of stuff. And Guru Nanak basically said something, I'm going to paraphrase it, essentially something like, you know, turn my feet in any direction where the Kaaba and God are not. And so the guy grabs Guru Nanak's feet and kind of like, yank some in a different direction away from the Kaaba.

And according to legend, basically what happens is, this guy, he starts seeing the Kaaba in the same direction that Guru Nanak's feet had been moved towards. And so, yeah, and so the lesson there is two, one, it's teaching that Guru Nanak is kind of like divine, and has powers that maybe your normal person wouldn't have. And then two, again, that concept of the oneness, right, that God is everywhere and in everything.

And so eventually though, Guru Nanak reaches an age where he's getting old, and he understands that, you know, his physical body at least will not be here for very long. And I guess according to tradition, God wanted there to be about 10 human Gurus, and then a final Guru. And so Guru Nanak needs to basically pick who the next Guru is supposed to be, and give him instruction, and kind of continue that Guru lineage.

And so he has this person that he meets. So it's similar to the Dali, where it's a chosen person. I mean, it's a little different in that the way they chosen, right?

This is from the Guru chooses the next Guru, is that? Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (42:28 - 42:32)

So it's a direct singular, like handing, passing of the torch.

[Speaker 1] (42:33 - 43:39)

Yeah. And it's a little even deeper than passing a torch, and I'll get into that. Yeah, absolutely.

This is fascinating. So Guru Nanak, he met this person named Bailena, and he basically gave Bailena a test to kind of see if this individual was the right person to give Guruship to. And so he kind of gave these tests, and I'll just kind of mention two of them.

So you can kind of get an idea of what quality Guru Nanak was kind of looking for for the next person to be Guru. So one test that he gave Bailena was, he made Bailena and his sons. So we have Bailena, and they have Guru Nanak's two sons.

And he basically instructed them to repair a wall that needed to be repaired. And so after they're finished repairing the wall, Guru Nanak kind of looks at the wall, and he's like, you know, this doesn't look right. Or, you know, you missed a spot, you know, that kind of stuff, right?

[Speaker 2] (43:40 - 43:43)

And so he tells them... Tear it down, build it, rebuild the whole thing, right?

[Speaker 1] (43:43 - 44:13)

Yeah, tear it down, rebuild it, right? I don't like it, right? And so they tear it down, they rebuild it, and then again, Guru Nanak's like, oh, you know, this isn't right.

Start over, right? And this happens about, let's say, three or four times, right? So he's testing them, obviously, right?

In this way. Yeah, he's testing them for things like patience, resiliency, but more importantly, ego, right? So are you willing to accept instruction without basically putting up a fight, essentially?

[Speaker 2] (44:13 - 44:21)

Yeah, and by being loyal, you're letting your ego aside for the good of that person instructing you. So there's a loyalty aspect to that as well.

[Speaker 1] (44:22 - 44:41)

Yeah. And so after about the third or fourth time, Guru Nanak's sons, his two sons, are basically like, dad, we're not doing this anymore. Goodbye.

And the only person that kind of sticks around is Bailena, who's like, you know, if my guru tells me to rebuild this, I'm going to do it. And so that kind of gives Guru Nanak an indication like, all right, this guy seems legit.

[Speaker 2] (44:41 - 44:42)

That's faith, yeah.

[Speaker 1] (44:43 - 45:03)

Yeah, he's got the qualities, right? And then another test happens later on where, again, we have Guru Nanak, and we have his sons there. And the reason why I keep mentioning his sons and why they're important to the story is because a lot of times in India, what would happen is you would logically pass down something to your own family members, right?

[Speaker 2] (45:04 - 45:13)

Yeah, it's everything family lineage down that way. And that would even be with the dowry and the exchange with the families. That all makes sense, for sure.

[Speaker 1] (45:13 - 46:13)

Yeah. And so one important lesson about these stories is that Guru Nanak eventually did not pass guruship to his sons to kind of give future Sikhs also the understanding that, hey, it's not about your family blood. It's about are you serving the guru?

But anyway, getting back to the second story. So again, we have Bailena, and then we have the two sons. And basically, Guru Nanak has something in his hand.

And just as a test, he kind of asks everybody around at the time, hey, what do you guys think I have in my hands? And his sons kind of give guesses or they're kind of like, they give guesses about what they think is possibly in their dad's hand, right? And Bailena says something basically to the tune of Guru Nanak, I am too, it's basically impossible for me to know what's in your hand.

You're too great of an individual. There's no way I could tell you what's in your hand. And so that's another test.

I gave Guru Nanak the indication, okay, this is my guy.

[Speaker 2] (46:14 - 46:21)

Yeah, because I got humility. There's a humility there and that I can't possibly presume that I would know what is in your hand of all people.

[Speaker 1] (46:21 - 46:52)

Yeah. And so eventually, Guru Nanak does a ceremony to essentially pass Guruship onto Bailena. And then Bailena basically takes on the name of Guru Angad.

And the importance of the word Angad is Angad literally means limb. And so what Guru Nanak is saying to people when he gave Bailena Guruship is that, hey, this guy, he's essentially like my limb. He's no different.

[Speaker 2] (46:52 - 46:53)

He's an extension of you.

[Speaker 1] (46:53 - 46:54)

He's an extension of me. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (46:55 - 46:55)

Nice.

[Speaker 1] (46:56 - 47:25)

And okay, so we have Guru Nanak and then we have Guru Angad. And from Guru Angad, we have Guru Amardas. And the only reason I'm speeding it up a little bit is because there's a lot of history here.

And I want to kind of get, I guess, get to the good parts, if you will. Yeah, get to, yeah, whatever you'd like to share. Like I said, this is fascinating.

Yeah. And that's not to say that these other Gurus that I'm skipping over didn't have their accomplishments. I'm just trying to get to like important, sick historical moments.

[Speaker 2] (47:25 - 47:25)

Yeah, absolutely.

[Speaker 1] (47:26 - 47:42)

For sure. And so, okay, so we have Guru Nanak, we have Guru Angad, and then from Guru Angad, we have Guru Amardas. And from Guru Amardas, we have Guru Ramdas.

And from Guru Ramdas, we get to Guru Arjan Devji. And so Guru Arjan...

[Speaker 2] (47:42 - 47:57)

I don't want to jump the gun, but is Guru Ramdas the same Ramdas that we know? No, no, no. Okay, I didn't think so.

Well, when you hear it, you know, once again, you hear the exact same thing. I just want to clarify. I didn't think it was.

I just want to make sure that we...

[Speaker 1] (47:57 - 49:49)

Yeah. So Guru Arjan is the fifth Guru, the fifth human Guru. And he's very significant for a couple of things.

One, remember that golden temple we talked about earlier that's Amritsar? He essentially finished that project. And so he's kind of accredited with that Guru Dwara basically being finished.

And so there's that. Two, later on when we get to our holy book, which is called the Guru Granth Sahib. I was gonna ask, I didn't want to jump with the gun on that.

Guru Arjan Devji actually has the most writing that got put into that text. And then third, he is the first Sikh Guru that got martyred. So he went through a martyrdom.

So basically what happened was at one point in time, he had to go to a place where basically he had been called to by the Mughal empire. And unfortunately, the Guru was somebody that was not going to accept their terms basically. And he was not also going to change his religion either.

He was not going to convert from Sikhi at the time to Islam. And just given all the facts and circumstances, unfortunately, he had to go through a couple of ordeals. The one that he's most famous for going through is basically, and this is going to sound really messed up, but basically he had to sit on a plate, like an iron plate that had a fire under it.

I've heard of branding and stuff.

[Speaker 2] (49:51 - 49:51)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (49:53 - 50:21)

So he's basically told, hey, sit on this. And at least according to our tradition, this was a highly enlightened spiritual being. He was basically essentially connected to God.

And so at least according to our tradition and legends, he basically went into this ordeal with a very focused mind on God. And so he experienced either no pain or very little pain.

[Speaker 2] (50:21 - 50:29)

The thing of like the walking on coals kind of during that hyper-focus in a way, right? Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (50:30 - 50:32)

He's in his zone essentially.

[Speaker 2] (50:32 - 50:33)

Yeah, the zone.

[Speaker 1] (50:33 - 51:15)

Yeah. And he's famous for during this ordeal saying basically that, God, your will is very sweet to me. So even though he's going through a very torturous experience, he's basically thanking God still for just what's going on, I guess, and being able to experience reality and life and everything.

And so... Thank you for letting me bleed just to know I'm alive. Perhaps.

Well, it's kind of like that. I'm not one of those people, you know, it's like you get a toothache and your tongue instinctively always goes back to make sure that it still hurts all the time.

[Speaker 2] (51:15 - 51:22)

You know it's going to hurt next time your tongue is going to touch it. What do you do? You check.

I don't know why, but you check.

[Speaker 1] (51:22 - 53:29)

Yeah. So even though his mind is, you know, solid, his physical body obviously can't take the pain and just everything that's happening, right? You know, fire is fire, right?

At the end of the day. And so his physical body does eventually end up going. And so after Guru Arjan Devji, we have an individual named Guru Hargobindji.

And Guru Hargobindji is famous for two things. The first is a story where basically he was arrested essentially. And actually he willingly went there.

So just to kind of give a background, basically there was a group of people. That was like the first guy, the troublemaker. So people came to Guru Hargobindji and basically, and the reason why I'm saying Ji by the way is because that's like a respectful, I don't know what it's called, but basically like if you want to respect somebody, you put Ji at the end, J-I.

So Guru Hargobindji, he's basically where he's at. And these people come to him and they basically tell him that, hey, you know, some of our princes and members of our community have been arrested. These are people that had like high positions of power.

So maybe they're like princes, kings, things like that. They've been kind of captured by this people from the Mughal empire and stuff. And Guruji kind of basically being connected with God kind of sees this moment as like, this is like God's will in the sense that God wants me to do something about this.

And so he willingly decides to go to this prison where these people are kept. And he basically kind of gives himself up essentially like, hey, you know, arrest me, right? And the reason why he's so confident in doing this is because he understands that this is like all part of God's plan essentially kind of thing.

[Speaker 2] (53:30 - 53:48)

Yeah, I think if you're at that level, I mean, any decision that comes to your mind, you're going to pretty much assume it's coming from a divine place. So once again, you have let go and given up that power to that divine.

[Speaker 1] (53:49 - 54:05)

Yeah, exactly. So he gets arrested and he's in prison. And basically, you know, being a spiritual person, he's, you know, meditating, things like that.

And he's giving advice to people and people kind of realize like, okay, this guy, he's up there, right? Like he's not a normal person.

[Speaker 2] (54:06 - 54:07)

Yeah, this guy's like for real. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (54:07 - 54:11)

Yeah. This guy's for real. Like we've done a mistake.

Like God knows.

[Speaker 2] (54:11 - 54:12)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (54:12 - 54:57)

God's going to be mad at us for having imprisoned this guy. We need to get him out of here. Otherwise we're going to get God's wrath.

Right. And so they go to Guru Hargobindji and they're like, hey, we can't really, we don't want to keep you here anymore. We're going to let you go.

And Guru Hargobindji says, I will go, but on one condition. And the condition is that everybody that's holding onto my robe gets to go out of this prison with me. And so basically what happened was there was this guy, he brought this long robe for Guruji.

Guruji puts it on basically all the prisoners, all the princes that are in prison, they grab a hold, they put their hand on his robe and they all basically walk out.

[Speaker 2] (54:59 - 55:00)

That's so cool.

[Speaker 1] (55:00 - 56:26)

Yeah. And so that's one story that Guru Hargobindji is really famous for. And it's so interesting how it's like not, it's like a pacifist way of, it's not aggression, but it's like assertiveness in a jovial kind of like, it's like almost like from a tangent.

So it doesn't feel like head on aggression. It's like, they all leave and they're probably going like, did that guy just bamboozle us? You know what I mean?

Like, it's totally like a different way of approaching the solution, you know? Not everything's a nail, man. We don't have to just be a hammer, right?

It's really interesting to hear these refreshing type stories. Yeah. And it's interesting that you've mentioned violence because now we're going to get into the violence, I guess.

Look, there's a point where everyone has to defend themselves. Exactly. So the second thing that Guru Hargobindji, who's the sixth guru he's famous for, is this idea of what's called midi-bidi.

So midi-bidi basically means saintly warrior. And basically what happened is Guru Hargobindji basically militarizes Sikhism. And the reason why he does that is because he basically essentially looks around and realizes, okay, there's a lot of aggression here.

Some of our people, we're losing people. We need to step up our game.

[Speaker 2] (56:26 - 56:34)

Police officers should have some kind of ground combat experience and stuff. To that point, it makes sense. You're protecting yourself.

[Speaker 1] (56:34 - 57:01)

Yeah. We can't just be people that meditate all day and all that stuff because that's great. But unfortunately, there's people that are bullying us and people are losing their lives.

We need to up our game, right? So he militarizes Sikhism basically. And from that point on, you start seeing Sikhs essentially learning horseback riding, carrying swords, practicing combat, things like that.

[Speaker 2] (57:02 - 57:19)

Now, as guru, he's already the guru. So it makes sense. But is it fascistic?

I mean, the guru would generally be fascistic in just being the sole person anyway, not in a negative way, just having the uni-power, right?

[Speaker 1] (57:19 - 57:22)

What do you mean, fascistic? Like a fascism.

[Speaker 2] (57:23 - 57:39)

I don't want to use these like Hitler, but I'm saying being a guru, obviously everyone's looking at you. Did he use that in an aggressive manner or was it all purely in a defensive, like, we just need to protect ourselves and be armed?

[Speaker 1] (57:41 - 57:45)

Yeah. I would say it was not— Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah.

I get what you're saying.

[Speaker 2] (57:46 - 57:46)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (57:46 - 57:48)

Like, I'm a non-interventionist.

[Speaker 2] (57:48 - 57:54)

Like, I think we should have the broadest sword, but it should be seen at all times, possibly, you know, if that makes sense.

[Speaker 1] (57:54 - 58:17)

I would say, just knowing Sikh history and Sikh principles, I would say it was more of a defense thing. So think of kind of like a Jedi, right? Right.

So it didn't get to his head. It wasn't like an ego thing for him. It was just a means, like a policy that he put in place.

Yeah. Yeah. Policies that he put in place to basically protect Sikhism's future, basically.

Very interesting.

[Speaker 2] (58:17 - 58:21)

Yeah. He had that interesting foresight of that, because I think there is a need for that.

[Speaker 1] (58:22 - 59:58)

Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny if you kind of think of like the Second Amendment in the U.S. Constitution, a little bit of that is kind of like that. Yeah. Two protects one, man. It really does.

Yeah. All right. So Sikhs kind of get militarized.

And so from that point on, Sikhs kind of have this image of being a saintly warrior. And so there's a lot of battles that happened. And eventually, guruship passes from Guru Hargobindji to Guru Hararaiji.

And from Guru Hararaiji, we have the youngest guru named Guru Harakrishnaji. And just to give you an idea of how young this guru was, he got guruship at five years old. Yeah.

So imagine like you run into a five-year-old and he's a guru connected to God. Right. Imagine the experience.

I think it was an eight-year-old dolly, right? Wasn't there? I think it was something like that.

But yeah, five. Just wow. Yeah.

A guru at five, like is it ascended, indoctrinated? What is the process? What is that called?

Like the selection process? Yeah. Is there a ceremony where they some anointment of some sort?

Yeah. So there is a ceremony that happens. I don't know all the details about the ceremony off the top of my head.

There's a coconut that's involved. I don't remember exactly why. Okay.

[Speaker 2] (59:59 - 1:00:05)

So five is the youngest, obviously, in this case, right? That's the youngest guru ever? Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:00:07 - 1:00:57)

So Guru Harakrishnaji becomes guru at age five. He goes through the ceremony, the choosing process, whatever you want to call it. And he's famous for two reasons.

One, he has a story where basically he went to this village. And in the village, there was a Hindu priest that basically kind of got a little irritated that there was somebody in the village calling himself a guru. He's five years old, and he has the name Harakrishna.

And the reason why that's an irritation to him is because in Hinduism, there's a holy book called Bhagavad Gita, whose main character is a deity called Krishna. And so he's kind of like, who's this five-year-old running around calling himself a guru? And he's taking the name of Krishna?

Like, come on, right? How much of a guru can this guy be?

[Speaker 2] (1:00:57 - 1:00:59)

How arrogant is this five-year-old?

[Speaker 1] (1:01:00 - 1:01:00)

Right.

[Speaker 2] (1:01:01 - 1:01:14)

Or the parents or something. It's almost like, who's what's a little mini boo boo, honey boo boo doing the wedding or the beauty pageants at like eight years old or whatever. Remember the honey boo boo little girl?

[Speaker 1] (1:01:15 - 1:01:30)

Anyway, was that TLC? Whatever it is, yeah. It's like parents pushing their kids into sports or something, you know?

Yeah. So he hears about Guru Harakrishna being in the village, and he's like, okay, I'm going to see what this guy's about, right? Or what this kid is about.

[Speaker 2] (1:01:30 - 1:01:35)

And how old is this guy? This guy's probably 40, probably 50. He's probably some wise older person.

[Speaker 1] (1:01:35 - 1:01:45)

Yeah, I don't know his age, but I imagine he would have probably been in his 30s or 40s, possibly older. And this guy's probably studied like Hindu script.

[Speaker 2] (1:01:45 - 1:01:48)

Oh, yeah. Earned it, right? Right.

Whatever, earned it.

[Speaker 1] (1:01:48 - 1:04:44)

Yeah. And so he goes to the guru, and he sees Guru Harakrishna. He's not impressed, obviously, at first.

And so he tells Guru Harakrishna, I've noticed you have the name Krishna in your name, Krishna. Can you recite to me the Bhagavad Gita and explain it to me? Right?

So he's basically testing him, right? He's like, oh, if you're so high, right, explain to me my holy scripture that I understand already so well. I want to see how good you are, right?

And Guru Harakrishna, the eighth guru in Sikhism, he, being a guru and connected to God, understands what's kind of going on. He kind of realized this guy, he's trying to show off. He's trying to boast his ego, all that stuff, right?

So even though he could, rather than explain the Gita himself to this guy, he basically tells him, I'll give you an alternative. He basically says, go in the village and find anybody that you want. You can pick anybody.

And I will personally have that person explain the Gita to you. And so the guy's like, okay, he accepts the challenge, and he goes out into the village, and he finds a guy that, according to the legend, cannot speak and cannot hear. So this is a poor individual, has no education, and he was unfortunately born with some disabilities.

And so this guy basically thinks, hey, if I pick this guy, this guy that can't hear, can't see, is uneducated. He can't even answer if he can't even hear the question. He can't answer.

So this is the perfect guy to put in front of Guruji to embarrass him, right? And so he takes the guy in front of Guruji, and Guru Hare Krishnaji, he used to have this stick that he kept with him. Think of kind of like a walking stick.

And what Guru Hare Krishnaji does, according to the story, is that he puts the stick on top of the head of this uneducated, deaf, can't speak person, right? And all of a sudden, through God's power, if you will, this person starts speaking out of nowhere, starts talking about the Gita, starts explaining the Gita. And this Hindu priest, his jaw drops, right?

He's like, whoa, right? Yeah, he's blown away by this. And from that point, he basically bows down to Guru Hare Krishnaji, like, okay, I've clearly messed up here.

My apologies. I didn't realize who you were, essentially. Nice.

Yeah. And so, again, that's another one of those examples where the guru kind of checks you, but he does it in a way without being violent, right? He kind of just gets you to realize that you messed up without having to resort to aggression.

And then, so that's one story that he's famous for. The next story that Guru Hare Krishnaji is famous for is, unfortunately, it has to do with his death. So Guru Hare Krishnaji, at one point in his life...

[Speaker 2] (1:04:44 - 1:04:51)

Can you give me the range of when he was guru, like the years?

[Speaker 1] (1:04:53 - 1:05:03)

So I don't know the specific dates. Yeah, like 1700s at this point, or where you at? Just going off the top of my head, if I had to put a date, I would say late 1600s.

Okay.

[Speaker 2] (1:05:04 - 1:05:07)

Yeah. I don't need specific, like exact, I was just curious, you know, in general.

[Speaker 1] (1:05:07 - 1:05:07)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:05:09 - 1:05:16)

Because I'm thinking about how the world is at this point as well, and how far expansion's starting to happen, and ships are starting to go around the world.

[Speaker 1] (1:05:17 - 1:06:10)

Got you, got you. Okay. So Guru Hare Krishnaji, in the second story, he's eight years old, and he basically goes to a place where a lot of people are suffering from smallpox.

And being a guru connected to God, he has a lot of compassion. He wants to heal these people. He wants to help out.

So he starts helping these people out, healing people, kind of like how heal people of leprosy, that kind of stuff. Yeah. So he starts healing people of the smallpox, and unfortunately, he ends up catching smallpox himself.

And so unfortunately, at the age of eight, his physical body does end up, you know, having its last breath. And so after Guru Hare Krishnaji, we have Guru Tegh Bahadurji. And Guru Tegh Bahadurji is famous because...

[Speaker 2] (1:06:10 - 1:06:27)

So I can ask one quick question on here, because this brings an interesting one. It's like, do they serve until they are physically no longer on this realm? Is a guru a guru?

It's not like where Catholicism, where they can step down at all. It's guru till death, or physical.

[Speaker 1] (1:06:28 - 1:06:42)

So I would say you're a guru until physical death, but you also have to remember that guruship is being passed on as well. So for example, if we go all the way back to the first guru, Guru Nanak, when he passed on guruship to Guru Angad Devji, Guru Nanak is still alive.

[Speaker 2] (1:06:43 - 1:06:43)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (1:06:43 - 1:07:03)

It's like an apprenticeship. So did Krishnaji have between five and eight already had one, or was there a gap? Is there ever any kind of point where there is a gap and they're still working on that process?

So you'd have to ask somebody that knows a little bit more about Sikhism for that.

[Speaker 2] (1:07:03 - 1:07:09)

I ask the weirdest questions, man. I just, like I said, I'm as curious as you are about everything.

[Speaker 1] (1:07:10 - 1:08:59)

So I would say that there were probably time periods where there was maybe a small gap where a guru necessarily hadn't been picked yet, exactly. So after Krishnaji, I didn't want to cut you off there. Yeah.

So after Guru Har Krishanji, we have the ninth human guru, who is Guru Tegh Bahadurji. And Guru Tegh Bahadurji is famous also for two things. One, he also has a lot of writings that are in the holy texts that we're going to talk about later.

But I would say the more so important thing that he's usually remembered for is he's the second Sikh human guru that gets martyred. And his story is basically one day these Hindu priests come to him and they basically say, hey, where we're from, a lot of people are forcibly being converted to Islam. We don't want to do that.

Can you help us? And Guru Tegh Bahadurji wants to help them. But before he helps them, he has this little test for his son.

His son is Gobind Rai. And he asks his son, Gobind Rai, hey, Gobind Rai, these people have come to us for help. They want my help in assisting them.

Should we help them? And his son, Gobind Rai, replies to his father, who's the ninth guru, he replies saying, father, who but you could help them? And so that gives Guru Tegh Bahadurji the indication that my son is destined to be the next guru.

There's some other stuff too that give indications, but that's like one, that's like the first.

[Speaker 2] (1:09:00 - 1:09:00)

Okay.

[Speaker 1] (1:09:00 - 1:09:29)

So is this the first time it was a passed off through blood lineage in some way? So the first five gurus are not blood related, at least to the best of my knowledge. The next five after that though, are somehow related blood wise.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So after Guru Tegh Bahadurji, the ninth guru, hears his son say this, he realizes, you know, I need to help, right?

He was already going to do it anyways, but you know.

[Speaker 2] (1:09:30 - 1:09:34)

Right. It was like, once again, there's always a little question behind the test.

[Speaker 1] (1:09:34 - 1:10:48)

Yeah. And so Guru Tegh Bahadurji goes to this place and he basically tells the ruler at the time that if you can't convert me to Islam, you cannot force everybody else to convert to Islam either. And so Guru Tegh Bahadurji is not alone.

There's, I want to say four, maybe four or five individuals with him. And again, unfortunately, these are not good circumstances. So each of these individuals that were with the guru, unfortunately, they had to go through painful ordeals.

And finally, at the very end, after those people have basically lost their lives, it's Guru Tegh Bahadurji's turn, unfortunately. And unfortunately, the way that Guru Tegh Bahadurji loses his life is he's beheaded. So according to tradition, while he was in a meditative state, essentially, you know, swing of the sword, he loses his head, unfortunately.

And after that, there's this individual there who, my apologies, I don't know. I don't remember his name. I should know his name, but I don't, unfortunately.

But basically this guy picks up.

[Speaker 2] (1:10:48 - 1:10:58)

You know, all of this is just astonishing. It's just because the name, I mean, just the information and just obviously you're well studied, but it's still fascinating regardless.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:58 - 1:12:08)

Yeah. So this guy, obviously it's a crazy situation. There's panic going on.

The guru has just lost his head. He picks up Guru Tegh Bahadurji's head and takes it all the way back to Gobind Rai. And remember, Gobind Rai is Guru Tegh Bahadurji's son.

So if you think about it, Gobind Rai is just basically being handed his dad's head. And so Gobind Rai sees this and he asked this guy, were there no Sikhs where my father was? Was there nobody there to protect him?

And this guy says, Gobind Rai, there were Sikhs there, but I couldn't tell who was a Sikh and who wasn't. There was just so many people. It was a large crowd.

I couldn't tell. And so Gobind Rai basically says at that point that in the future, I'm going to create a uniform for Sikhs so that there's no mistake about who is a Sikh and who isn't. And nobody's going to be able to hide.

And so after that, Gobind Rai basically becomes Guru Gobind Ji. Okay.

[Speaker 2] (1:12:08 - 1:12:13)

So he was able to get a G also, like earn the G moniker?

[Speaker 1] (1:12:14 - 1:12:17)

Well, so anybody that's a guru kind of automatically gets it.

[Speaker 2] (1:12:17 - 1:12:27)

So all the Gs are gurus, but not all gurus. No, all gurus are Gs, but not all Gs are gurus. I guess there's a G that's not a guru.

[Speaker 1] (1:12:27 - 1:12:37)

I just want to make sure you know, once again, you got the Venn diagram of the stuff. One way you can kind of understand G is kind of like how in Japanese culture, there's like, I think they call it San, like Nissan.

[Speaker 2] (1:12:37 - 1:12:52)

Yeah, San. I was going to say the same thing. You want to say senior, but it's almost like grant, like elder, wise person, MD, doctor, PhD, almost in a weird way of life.

[Speaker 1] (1:12:52 - 1:14:17)

Yeah. So Gobind Rai is now Guru Gobind Ji, and he's the 10th guru. And he's going through battles and stuff.

And at one point, he basically realizes we need more people, and we need the right kind of people, because a lot of people, they're abandoning the battlefield. He needs people that are courageous, who aren't going to run away. Disciplined and all that good stuff.

Yeah, he needs like elite warriors. And so one day, he does this test. He's in front of a large crowd.

And he says, I need a volunteer. And I basically, I need a volunteer. And this person is basically going to be like, a warrior with no fear, and isn't going to turn around and run away from the battle.

I need somebody who's legit, essentially, right. And there's one person who basically stands up, he volunteers. And again, unfortunately, I can't remember these individuals names.

Again, I should know them. But anyways. So this guy volunteers, and Guruji basically says, Okay, come here.

And they go back into this tent. Guruji has this tent. And people are kind of like listening, watching, you know, what's going to happen.

They're looking at this tent. And they hear like a sound, think of like a sword, slicing off like a head. Think of that.

[Speaker 2] (1:14:17 - 1:14:19)

Yeah. Right. Like a shunk.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:19 - 1:14:19)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:14:19 - 1:14:19)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:19 - 1:18:41)

And so Guruji comes out of the tent, and his sword has blood on it. And everybody's like, whoa, what just happened, right? And then Guruji's like, I need a second volunteer.

And everybody's like, we don't think so. And so some people start, you know, walking away, running away. But there is a second individual that steps up.

And he's like, Guruji, I'm ready to join your army. I'm ready to be by your side. And so this, he takes the second person into the tent, you hear the same sound.

And Guruji comes out again, his sword's got blood. And Guruji's like, I need a third volunteer. And a third person steps up, same thing happens, they go to the tent, you hear the sound, Guruji comes out, I need a fourth volunteer, same thing happens.

And then the next time he comes out of the tent, he comes out again, he's like, I need a fifth volunteer this time. And this is the last time this happens. So the fifth person goes into the tent, again, you hear the same sound, Guruji comes out, and then all five of these individuals come out of the tent.

And Guruji basically tells the six that these five individuals are known as what's called the Panjpyare. And Panjpyare means the five beloved ones. And then these five individuals and Guru Govindji do a ceremony called the Khalsa ceremony.

The word Khalsa means God's army. And so basically what happens is in the ceremony, these five individuals essentially drink, you could think of like as holy water. And essentially, it's think of it like regular water, and you said some spiritual scripture, you blessed it, basically.

And so they drink this, right. And so there's a Panjpyare at that point. And Guruji also takes amrit from these five individuals.

And after he does this, the Khalsa is essentially created. And one thing about the Khalsa is that if you're part of the Khalsa, so if you're Khalsa Sikh, you have to wear five significant items on yourself at all times. Those are known as the five Ks.

And those five Ks are basically, the first one is Ganga. So Ganga is, I'm sorry, the first one is Kesh. So Kesh is uncut hair.

So if you've taken this amrit ceremony, Khalsa ceremony, you have to have uncut hair. So you're allowed to trim any hair that's on your body, essentially. So that's Kesh.

The second thing is Ganga. Including facial hair and everything? Yeah, facial hair, body hair, all of it.

Yeah. And then the second K is Ganga. Ganga is a wooden comb.

And the third K is Karpan. Karpan is just basically a sword. Back in those days, people had like legit big swords.

Nowadays, obviously, you don't see Khalsa Sikhs carrying big swords. Usually, they got their little small one that they kind of keep at their waist or whatever. And so we have Kesh, Ganga, Karpan, and then you have Kachera.

Kachera is just basically loose boxers. And the reason why that's there is because back in those days, if you needed to step into a battle real quick, you didn't have time to put your pants on and all this stuff, right? So you needed loose clothing on that you could kind of move around in and still fight.

And it's also supposed to be about like modesty and stuff. And then the last K is Kara. Kara is basically a metallic bracelet.

I actually have one on right now. So I'll kind of show you real quick. So it looks like this.

Again, this is like a modern version. Back in those days, this actually would have had like a sharp edge to where you could have thrown it and like got some serious damage. But these days, it's just a metal bracelet.

Where did you get that one? I just bought it at like a market. And so each K has like a significance to it.

[Speaker 2] (1:18:41 - 1:18:44)

And it was five because it represented the initial five.

[Speaker 1] (1:18:45 - 1:19:06)

Yeah. So like the Kesh, for example, the uncut hair that has to do with like discipline, that you're following God's will and that you're keeping like a routine. The comb is to kind of keep yourself clean, cleanse, cleanliness.

Because if you're going to keep your hair long, you don't want it all over the place.

[Speaker 2] (1:19:06 - 1:19:06)

What's next to godliness?

[Speaker 1] (1:19:07 - 1:19:10)

Come on. Yeah. So real interesting.

[Speaker 2] (1:19:10 - 1:19:31)

Had anyone, and I'm sure you don't know this exact answer, but once again, my curiosity just jumps in is like, had anyone ever been shamed, like had their hair cut as a young child and couldn't then become this elite warrior because they had someone had like, you know, sullied them by doing like cutting their hair at a young age or doing something to them?

[Speaker 1] (1:19:31 - 1:19:44)

So during those times, again, this is a new thing that just got created. So there were already people that maybe had cut their hair before. But once you did the ceremony, once you did it, it was from then forward.

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:19:45 - 1:19:54)

Like I'm like once again, it's like I wonder if they ever got captured or something and then they cut the hair is like because now they've lost one of the five tenants that are make them who they are.

[Speaker 1] (1:19:54 - 1:20:23)

Yeah. Well, I mean, back then, you know, if you had gone through the ceremony and then you did it, obviously you got in trouble. And even now you get in trouble for that.

OK, so, yeah. So the cash, the gun, the coupon, the sword, obviously, to defend people. It's not supposed to be used offensively.

It's supposed to use for defense. The kachera, the loose boxers we already talked about, mostly modesty and just being battle ready. And then the kara, again, the metal bracelet.

[Speaker 2] (1:20:24 - 1:20:28)

So that basically was a Chinese throwing star. That's not Chinese.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:30 - 1:21:00)

So that was basically to kind of show that you were committed to the guru. So I don't know if you remember, but basically back in those days, slavery was still around in certain areas of the world. And so, yeah, see Libya anyway.

But yeah, well, I digress already. And so slaves, you know, you know, slaves used to have those cuffs on them. Yes.

Yeah. And so the idea was that if you put one of these metal bracelets on, you were essentially saying that you were like cuffed to the guru that you were. Yeah, that's a good one.

[Speaker 2] (1:21:00 - 1:21:01)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:03 - 1:21:41)

And so so the Khalsa gets created and from there Guru Gobind ji basically also says that anybody that's a Khalsa Sikh has to basically take on a phrase in their name. So if you were a male, I'll call it a title. I don't want to call it a phrase.

You had to take on a title in your name. So you had to, if you were a male, you had to take on the word Singh. And the word Singh actually means lion.

And so the idea was that. So like, for example, if I was around that time, I actually have Singh in my name.

[Speaker 2] (1:21:41 - 1:21:41)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:41 - 1:22:55)

So does this work for you? How does this connect with you? Because your last name, right?

Yeah. So I guess connection, it just kind of tells people that like I'm from that lineage, I guess, or that tradition. But basically back then, though, people didn't have it right.

And so the idea was like, if let's say I existed back then, right. And my name was Pinder. If I took the ceremony and became a Khalsa Sikh, from then on, I would be known as Pinder Singh.

Okay. So did you know about the Singh part early in your exploration? So like, when you found that out, something had to have like.

Oh, yeah. So tell me how that, tell me about that experience, because that must have been something, right? Because like, if you reflect on that moment, how did that feel?

Yeah, I'm actually tearing up a little bit. That's why I'm trying not to cry. No, that's what I always ask those questions, man.

I'm just cutting onions just underneath you right now. Yeah, it was a beautiful moment. Like I said earlier in the podcast, I had like this realization that I kind of figured out like who I was.

It just kind of, all the dots kind of connected and stuff. So yeah, it was a very good moment.

[Speaker 2] (1:22:56 - 1:22:57)

That is awesome.

[Speaker 1] (1:22:57 - 1:22:58)

Thanks for sharing.

[Speaker 2] (1:22:58 - 1:23:00)

I'm sorry I put you on the spot, but thanks for sharing.

[Speaker 1] (1:23:00 - 1:23:00)

You're fine.

[Speaker 2] (1:23:01 - 1:23:15)

It's kind of the purpose of this thing is really to like, it's to humanize, regardless of what people think or feel or whatever. Like there's, because we're all, underneath it, we're all kind of, there's something that resonates, you know.

[Speaker 1] (1:23:15 - 1:24:40)

Yeah. And yeah, so if you were a male, you got Singh, right, in your name and that meant lion. And so the idea was to empower you, right?

That you're like a lion, right? You are courageous. You go into the battle and you do what needs to be done, right?

Now, if you were a woman and you took the Khalsa ceremony, you got the name Kaur, K-A-U-R. And Kaur, that can be translated into princess. Some people even translate it into queen, but it's most commonly translated into princess or sometimes even prince.

I've seen it translated. And that was a really important point or thing that Guruji did because at that time, in that time period, women were sometimes seen as inferior to men. And in some cases, in some cultures, even seen as like a negative thing to your spiritual development, that if you hung around women too much, you weren't going to become spiritually realized.

And so Guruji, by giving women Kaur after they've taken the Khalsa ceremony, was to basically say a couple of things. One, hey guys, women are your equal. Two, you need to treat them like royalty.

And three, that you need to respect them and that they're not going to hinder your spiritual progress in any way.

[Speaker 2] (1:24:42 - 1:24:48)

Very cool. I was going to ask that. The female element, has there been a female guru ever?

[Speaker 1] (1:24:49 - 1:24:56)

So there has not been a female guru in terms of physical bodies.

[Speaker 2] (1:24:57 - 1:25:09)

And let me be clear. I'm not asking as a gotcha. I'm just asking as a historical question kind of thing because I'm not one of these people.

History is history. It's just what happens.

[Speaker 1] (1:25:09 - 1:25:50)

Oh yeah. No, we're buddies. I know you're not trying to do a gotcha.

Yeah. I'm not trying to cancel the Sikh religion or anything. Yeah.

So there was never a female human guru. And there's various explanations that people have for why that may have been the case. And we can maybe go into that later if we need to.

But so basically, again, so women are given this car name. And so now Guru Gobind Ji is called Guru Gobind Singh Ji. And that's how he's normally known.

[Speaker 2] (1:25:50 - 1:25:51)

I think he's adding a name.

[Speaker 1] (1:25:51 - 1:25:57)

He just wanted more names. Well, the names are powerful, so it helps, right?

[Speaker 2] (1:25:57 - 1:26:18)

It totally makes sense. And it really does. It speaks to the general understanding of the role of women who volunteer to do that kind of thing.

It's not like you have to be this because, but if you choose this, then you get to that.

[Speaker 1] (1:26:18 - 1:27:37)

Yeah. Okay. So now Guru Gobind Singh Ji has his Khalsa army, and they start going into battle, right?

And there's a lot of history about all the battles that kind of went through. One important detail about these battles is that Guru Gobind Singh Ji has four sons. And each son was lost during this time period.

Two were lost in battle. And the two youngest were unfortunately lost their lives, again, like a martyrdom kind of situation. So his two oldest sons, Ajit Singh and Jujar Singh, they basically bravely fought in battle and unfortunately lost their lives.

And then his two youngest sons, Zorawar Singh and Fateh Singh, they actually got captured. And the way they got captured was kind of messed up. Basically, there was this guy that the two sons and their mother were basically fleeing from a bad situation.

And they took shelter with this one Sikh who ended up betraying them for money, kind of like a, what's his name?

[Speaker 2] (1:27:37 - 1:27:37)

A Judas situation?

[Speaker 1] (1:27:37 - 1:27:49)

A Judas situation, essentially, basically. There's always a Judas, right? I'm hearing some parallels, no lies.

I mean, the three-day thing. I'm well-studied in a lot of them.

[Speaker 2] (1:27:50 - 1:27:54)

That's why it's just very, like I said, I'm riveted right now.

[Speaker 1] (1:27:56 - 1:29:19)

Anyway, so they basically get captured, the two youngest sons and their mother. And unfortunately, they go through some hard times. For example, they're out in the cold winter, I think December, super cold.

They don't have blankets, things like that. So they're suffering. And then eventually there comes a point where the two youngest sons get called into, think of like a courtroom, essentially.

And they're basically given temptations to try to get them to convert to Islam. And there's a specific reason why the emperor or the ruler at that time wants them to convert to Islam. Mainly because Guru Gobind Singh Ji had defeated this one Mughal general or whatever in battle.

And so in one way, it was kind of like, if I can get Guru Gobind Singh Ji's sons to convert to Islam, it's kind of like a ha-ha kind of thing to kind of disgrace him, I guess. And then two, if they can convert his two youngest sons to Islam, it's kind of like, if I can get Guru Gobind Singh Ji's sons to convert, I'll get his other Singhs and Kars to convert as well. His other six, right?

[Speaker 2] (1:29:20 - 1:29:25)

Yeah, there's a lot of this ego pride kind of thing where there's a lot of that back.

[Speaker 1] (1:29:25 - 1:30:33)

Yeah. Now his two youngest sons were very brave. They didn't give into the temptations.

And there's actually a really good movie called The Four Jada Sahibzadeh. You can watch that with English subtitles if you ever get a chance to. And you're going to have to share me some links because I'm going to have to figure out.

Yeah, it's actually on YouTube. I'll try to share it with you. And actually talks about the whole story history of his four sons.

But anyways, so his two youngest sons, they are brave. They don't convert to Islam by force. And unfortunately, the people that were in power at the time basically took that as kind of like an offense that these two kids were kind of arrogant, showboasty, all that kind of stuff, because they were praising their father as well a lot in this courtroom.

Hansa kind of kicked off the people like, well, my dad did this. Yeah, I can totally see it. Yeah.

And so like, I mean, imagine because there's that weird, like nonaggressive, aggressive, like like we said, assertion without the aggressive.

[Speaker 2] (1:30:33 - 1:30:41)

Imagine the jovialness or the like they're kind of seeing this, all this as a joke in some weird way, because yeah, children of the divine.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:41 - 1:31:36)

Like, yeah, it's ridiculous. Yeah. They're kind of like you got nothing on us.

Chill, buddy. And so so his two sons eventually end up getting martyred. Basically, they get bricked alive.

So essentially, imagine them like standing and basically people putting bricks around them until basically they're completely covered, isolated in like a cage made of bricks. And you can imagine the oxygen eventually gets low. And so they end up passing out.

Now, some stories say that that's the end of his two youngest sons, that they died there after they lost oxygen. Other people say that there was a point afterwards where they were taken out of the brick cage and their throats were slit. I can't confirm the validity of that second one, but anyways, the point is they lost their lives, right?

Fighting for truth and justice and all that stuff.

[Speaker 2] (1:31:38 - 1:31:40)

So yeah, I'm not laughing at the situation.

[Speaker 1] (1:31:40 - 1:32:16)

Yeah. Yeah. And so eventually we get to a point where there's still battles going on and Guru Gobind Singh Ji is getting to a point where he realizes my time's coming too.

And there needs to be another guru. The problem is there isn't anybody around that he thinks can become the next guru, at least a human person. There just isn't anybody that's displaying those qualities of a guru.

And again, he's also connected to the divine. So he sort of has a feeling or knows what needs to happen next.

[Speaker 2] (1:32:16 - 1:32:18)

Yeah, someone's talking, telling him in his ear, being like, hey.

[Speaker 1] (1:32:19 - 1:33:54)

Yeah. And so what Guru Gobind Singh Ji decides to do at this point is he takes all of the writings of Sikh history. So the first five gurus, all of their writings, the writings of the ninth guru, and then writings from people that were highly spiritual, but from other traditions.

So think of people like Saint Kabir from the Islamic tradition. I can't think of any right now, but a famous Hindu priest that might've been very spiritually enlightened. So he takes all those writings and basically compiles them into one volume, you could say.

And he tells the Sikhs at the time that this volume of texts, which I'm going to call the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, is your next guru. So we have 10 human gurus. And then at the very end, the last and final guru ends up becoming all the Sikh scriptures that have been collected throughout the years and written down.

And so today, if you go to a gurudwara, when you enter a place in the gurudwara called the Darbar, which is where the guru is, when you enter, at the very end of the room, you'll see a throne. And on that throne is basically, I'll call it a book. It's kind of disreflectful to call it a book, bro, just for our conversation.

[Speaker 2] (1:33:54 - 1:34:02)

I mean, it's a collection of works, right? I mean, I don't, it's the lifetimes of wisdom.

[Speaker 1] (1:34:03 - 1:34:08)

I'll just call it a text, I guess. So you'll see a text. I know.

[Speaker 2] (1:34:09 - 1:34:18)

It's like, it just doesn't do it justice, right? It's like calling a novel. You know, it's like, you know, how big, you know, yeah.

Text is about as close as you'll get.

[Speaker 1] (1:34:19 - 1:35:25)

Yeah. So when you enter the Darbar, if you look straight ahead at the room, you'll see a throne kind of set up. And in that throne, you'll see a copy of the sacred text, the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

And so Sikhs consider that to be our current and final guru. So that's our last guru. There's no other guru that's going to come after this.

This is our guru. And so what people will do when they entered their bar is they will bow down to Guruji. And everybody has a different way of doing it.

Like what I like to do is I like to go around Guruji and like to bow my head in all four directions just to kind of show respect and just kind of tell Guruji that like, like I'm yours in the sense of like, no matter which direction I'm facing you, I'm with you. But there's no right or wrong way to do it. You know, it's just however, whatever you feel comfortable.

[Speaker 2] (1:35:25 - 1:35:38)

Yeah. Well, I mean, look, honoring any, once again, this is the personal thing, part of it, right? Like you can't just come in as an outsider and tell you how you should feel about what you experience.

[Speaker 1] (1:35:38 - 1:36:20)

Yeah. Yeah. And so eventually Guru Gobind Singhji, he unfortunately gets assassinated.

He basically gets a wound. And unfortunately, his physical body can't heal from it. So his physical body ends up going.

And then from that point on, basically the Guru Granth Sahibji is the final guru. And there's a lot more history after this. I'm not going to get into it just because it's more so just battles and empires rising and falling and all that kind of stuff.

Well, it's funny because you started going through the history and you said 10 or 11 in the beginning.

[Speaker 2] (1:36:20 - 1:36:45)

And I'm like, wait a minute, we're getting up there. Is this end of the world? But how many years are they going?

It's 500 years. Is that 50 per where we at? Which one are we on?

Are we on 11? And here you are and you closed it. Now, quick question about that, if I may.

Is there no coming, second coming of a physical guru to pick up the sacred text and say, I'm now back? Okay. So there's none of that.

[Speaker 1] (1:36:45 - 1:36:46)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:36:46 - 1:37:11)

Okay. Interesting. So they actually, they, you, it is closed.

The Sikh circle as it is whole, it is a whole religion that does not have an upcoming predictive thing that we're living, that making ourselves like point ourselves toward like self-fulfilling prophecy type stuff. Or is there stuff in the text?

[Speaker 1] (1:37:11 - 1:37:33)

There is a prophecy in the text, which I'll get into. But in terms of just guruship, there is no other guru. The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the final guru.

Now there are some sects or denominations or whatever you want to call them that exist that claim that they have another guru. But if you're a true Sikh, right.

[Speaker 2] (1:37:34 - 1:37:35)

Thank you. Thank you.

[Speaker 1] (1:37:35 - 1:37:48)

Yeah. If you're going to be it, like I'm one of these people, it's like, it's something about like, if you have a, if you claim to be X faith, like, you know, one that with a label on it that we know, I'm sorry, you have to believe all the tenants.

[Speaker 2] (1:37:48 - 1:37:57)

If you believe not one, like a single thing is like not right with you, you can't call yourself that it's just, that's just not how it is. So I like the purity that you're approaching this with, you know?

[Speaker 1] (1:37:57 - 1:38:07)

Yeah. Well, because Guru Gobind Singh Ji, before he left this reality, he made it very clear, like, this is the last guru and you need to accept that this is your guru.

[Speaker 2] (1:38:08 - 1:38:12)

Right. That doesn't make sense that you wouldn't. It really just shows it would almost.

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:38:13 - 1:38:43)

Yeah. Now there's various theories about why, after Guru Gobind Singh Ji, there wasn't another guru and why it's in book form, but I don't want to get into that right now, but. So yeah, the prophecy we were talking about.

I need to plug in my laptop. It's about to run out of power. Yeah, no worries.

Go ahead. Trust me, I have had technical issues with this thing since day one, man. I, some stuff goes on the fritz, I lose signal.

[Speaker 2] (1:38:43 - 1:39:03)

It's very frustrating when you have somebody that you completely admire, like wholeheartedly. And you're like, oh my gosh, they want to talk to you. They're actually allowing you to talk to them.

And then you lose them three times. And in between you losing them, the expletives are just flying out.

[Speaker 1] (1:39:05 - 1:40:34)

Yeah. So I'll go into two things. I'll go into that prophecy that we mentioned earlier.

And then two, I'll go into what the Sikh belief is in terms of how you connect to the divine. Let's start with that prophecy. So the prophecy is basically that it's the idea that one day the Khalsa is going to basically bring about, I'm trying to find the perfect word for this.

I don't want to say abundance, but basically, perhaps prosperity. Yeah, that might be a good word. Basically that the Khalsa is going to bring about prosperity for the whole world.

Now are they kind of akin to the Knights Templar in a way? I mean, I hate to, I don't want to, it sucks, but it's just like, do you have kind of similar, it's almost like that sect or that portion of it? Knights Templar, is that like King Arthur stuff?

Well, it's like the ones that were Christians or Catholics that were the warriors. They were the ones that, I mean, is Khalsa only warrior type related or was it all Sikh? Well, so remember, so at the Sixth Guru, right, we created this idea of midi-bidi, which is saintly warrior.

So the idea is that if you're a Sikh, not only are you, I guess, battle ready, you're also very spiritually trying to develop yourself, right?

[Speaker 2] (1:40:35 - 1:40:38)

So that's where the Khalsa came to be.

[Speaker 1] (1:40:39 - 1:40:53)

Well, so you could think of the Khalsa as kind of like officializing the militarism. Like becoming a marshal, like being martialized or deputized in a way. Maybe like the formal rules, I guess.

Okay. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:40:54 - 1:40:58)

I'll follow you, man. Like I said, it's like trying to learn this in one day is going to be interesting.

[Speaker 1] (1:40:59 - 1:42:18)

Yeah. I guess you could kind of say like the Sixth Guru kind of went like, hey, this is probably a good idea to do. And the Tenth Guru was kind of like, all right, we need to formalize this, write things down.

Yeah. Yeah. What counts and what doesn't, I guess you could say.

That makes sense. Yeah. Okay.

So, yeah. So the idea is that the Khalsa will one day bring about abundance or prosperity, we use the word prosperity. And the idea is supposed to be that one day in the future, the Khalsa has done its job, essentially.

And when I say done its job, I mean, they've followed the Sikh tenets and are helping people and basically have brought about God's vision. And in this world, in the future, the idea is that everybody has freedom and nobody's going hungry. Those are like the two big, I guess, if you had to say goals of the Khalsa, is everybody should have freedom and everybody should have something to eat.

If those two things are met, then the Khalsa has kind of satisfied or met God's mission in sending Guru Nanak here and starting this path of Sikhi. Okay. I like that.

Yeah. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:42:18 - 1:42:29)

So it's not like they're going to battle. There's not fire and brimstone. There's like, once they bring abundance and prosperity back, it's like, okay, cool.

I'll take that. That's a good vision to have.

[Speaker 1] (1:42:31 - 1:42:57)

Yeah. And it goes back to, I guess, the very beginning, right? Remember there was battles going on and strife and confusion about what life is about.

And so the idea is that the Khalsa is supposed to be God's army here on earth to bring about right understanding and prosperity, which is kind of like what God wants, right? God wants us all to kind of understand him or it or whatever.

[Speaker 2] (1:42:58 - 1:43:01)

Whatever God is for whoever.

[Speaker 1] (1:43:02 - 1:43:37)

Yeah. Understand God and also just prosperity for everybody, right? Everybody's happy, all that kind of stuff.

And I guess this kind of a little bit differs from maybe, I guess, other theologies where there's kind of this idea that somebody is going to kind of come back and bring about prosperity. The idea is that if you follow Sikh tenets and connect yourself with the divine as much as you can, you as a personal individual, along with other Sikhs, can bring about in this reality what God wants there to be.

[Speaker 2] (1:43:38 - 1:43:39)

Be the change you want to see in the world.

[Speaker 1] (1:43:40 - 1:43:41)

Yeah. That's one way you can.

[Speaker 2] (1:43:41 - 1:44:02)

I mean, it literally comes back to what we said earlier. And it's interesting because perhaps that second coming is exactly what you're talking about, but has been misinterpreted as a second coming of a physical entity type thing. Whereas to your point is if we live this way, we would be this way.

[Speaker 1] (1:44:02 - 1:44:40)

Yeah. And earlier, you know, we talked about like why I started the podcast and I'm not saying this is why I started it, but one element you could kind of maybe infer from our discussion here is that by me kind of talking about Sikhism either on my show or on another person's show, maybe I'm not the person, but I might light that spark in somebody who after hearing this or hearing something on my podcast goes, hey, I like Sikhism.

I want to become a Khalsa Sikh. And who knows, maybe that's that person that's going to bring everybody together and bring, you know, bring about that vision of what the Khalsa is supposed to accomplish.

[Speaker 2] (1:44:40 - 1:44:42)

Well, I like your humility. It could be you.

[Speaker 1] (1:44:44 - 1:44:46)

You're the one talking it.

[Speaker 2] (1:44:46 - 1:45:15)

I mean, you're the one doing right. So like, what was it, Marcus, really? It's like when you want to know what a thing is, look at what it does.

If you were actually the one speaking on that side of the microphone, sharing this to me, I didn't expect you on this direction. I'm completely engaged in this conversation. So you clearly shared it in a way that's been engaging.

So well, thank you for that for sure. I mean, there was a second piece to that.

[Speaker 1] (1:45:15 - 1:45:59)

Yeah. So the second piece I wanted to share was just, I guess, what I guess is the belief of Sikhism in the sense of how do you connect with the divine, right? So we already talked about jumping nam, which again means chanting God's name.

So the idea is that by chanting God's name, you are bringing your ego down. So for example, this mic, for example, right? I might say this is my mic, but by chanting God's name a lot, the idea is that you're supposed to kind of shift your mind in so that when you look at something, you don't see it as yours necessarily.

You look at it as God. So this isn't my mic. This is God's and I'm just borrowing it for a while.

Right.

[Speaker 2] (1:45:59 - 1:46:04)

Like God's allowed me to be, to have this, of this, whatever I have.

[Speaker 1] (1:46:04 - 1:46:17)

Right. It is out of God's grace. Right.

It's bringing that I, it's getting, trying to get rid of that I and that meanness. That's all about me and that I own things and things like that. I mean, it also connection.

[Speaker 2] (1:46:17 - 1:46:42)

I mean, I I'm assuming there's a connection suffering portion to it, right? Because like, once again, we have like Buddhist tradition is the whole point of suffering is that you're connected. Like it's mine.

You took it. Now I'm suffering because you took what's mine. Well, if it's not yours to begin with, you didn't have it taken.

Therefore you don't have that suffering that's associated with being lost or being.

[Speaker 1] (1:46:43 - 1:46:47)

Yeah. Well, so there's different levels of understanding, I guess you could say.

[Speaker 2] (1:46:48 - 1:46:49)

So I would guess. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:46:50 - 1:47:44)

I'm sure I'm very rudimentary. So like, for example, if we take the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, right. And you open that up to the first page, it starts out with Ek Omkar.

So basically that was Guru Nanak explaining God to us and what reality is. So the Ek is literally the word for the number one and Omkar or sometimes it's pronounced Omkar with like a G in there. Basically, Guru Nanak was trying to say that there's one God, this one God is basically what's behind everything, essentially.

And what creation is or what this reality is, is that this one, what we call Vaheguru, that's like our name for God. Vaheguru basically through the sound Om or sometimes it's pronounced Om or whatever.

[Speaker 2] (1:47:46 - 1:47:46)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:47:46 - 1:48:40)

We mentioned it on your podcast. Yeah. So through that sound, God basically created everything and it's a continuous process.

So it never stops, goes on for infinity. And again, it's kind of going back to that oneness. So Guru Nanak was trying to say with Ek Omkar that there's one God and this one God created everything.

And not only is God transcendent from what he created, but he's also a part of this reality that God created. And so when you're chanting God's name, just to go like really deep, real quick, if you can get to a spiritual level where your ego has been completely like, let's say, been dissolved, you basically will understand that you are, you could say essentially like a tool of God, that you are God's like instrument, if you will.

[Speaker 2] (1:48:41 - 1:48:52)

Not a limb, but a tool in the limb of the Guru, right? Because the Guru is a limb and you are now in the limb, like you're being held by the limb.

[Speaker 1] (1:48:54 - 1:49:08)

Well, so the Guru is kind of supposed to be like a... Didn't you say that the Guru was a limb? He called him his limb?

Well, so the second Guru, Guru Angad, so Angad means limb. And so that was just Guru Nanak saying, hey, this person is an extension of me. Got it.

Okay.

[Speaker 2] (1:49:08 - 1:49:14)

But you're basically an extension, a tool also in aware of that as well.

[Speaker 1] (1:49:14 - 1:50:01)

Yeah. And so if you, I guess, reach this level of, what I'll say, awareness, that you realize that there's only oneness and that you are simply an instrument being used by God to have God's will be expressed, you could say that there's no such thing as suffering. And the only reason I say that is because after Ek Onkar in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, we get a description of kind of like what God is, like qualities and stuff.

And so we get told things like God has no gender, has no fear, there's no suffering, God doesn't suffer, things like that. Yeah. So the idea is that once you realize this oneness, at a certain spiritual understanding, everything is pretty much okay.

[Speaker 2] (1:50:02 - 1:50:26)

Really cool. Yeah. Have you reached that level personally through any experience?

I mean, like, obviously I've shared things that have happened, that I've experienced, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Have you had flashes, similar to those types of experiences that just kind of confirm your path?

[Speaker 1] (1:50:28 - 1:51:56)

Yeah. There was one moment that actually happened in my life once, and this experience lasted maybe five seconds. I was in my bedroom and I was actually watching a video on Sikhism.

And I was watching that channel, Basics of Sikhi, that I talked about earlier. And I was listening to one of the individuals on that channel, explaining some concept about Sikhism. And he said something, unfortunately, I don't remember exactly what he said, but for some reason, that word or words that he said, it triggered something.

And in that moment, for like five seconds, I felt absolute peace. And I'm not making this up or anything, like, for those five seconds, it felt like nothing was wrong with reality. And I did cry, I'll admit that, just because that feeling was so beautiful.

I have spent pretty much my entire life since then, trying to have that same experience once again. And I've gotten close. On my podcast, we talked about those meditation experiences that I had, where I felt a little weightless, or I felt like there was like, kind of maybe like an energy around me.

Yeah, like a vibrational kind of thing as well. Yeah. And it's not the same thing as what I experienced in that moment for the five seconds.

But I like to think maybe that's like a step to feel that maybe like on a permanent basis.

[Speaker 2] (1:51:57 - 1:52:32)

You're like Whoopi Goldberg chasing the ribbon in Star Trek Generations. Or not, no, Malcolm McDowell chasing the ribbon. It's like, remember that piece that he felt like it was perfection?

I can tell you, I spoke about my past life regression. The one that was prior to this was like pitch black, and I'm a non-corporeal mist. The piece I felt in that moment of time sounds exactly what you're talking like.

It was absolute silence, but harmony too.

[Speaker 1] (1:52:33 - 1:52:39)

Yeah, there was that silence. Yeah, but it's weird because it wasn't an uncomfortable silence. It was like a harmonious silence.

[Speaker 2] (1:52:40 - 1:53:09)

It's very different. It's like a peace versus an absence of sound, I guess. And I remember the person saying, I'm being pulled here, allegedly into this life.

And I had tears. I remember the same kind of like saying like, why are you coming here? And I'm like, they're making me.

And it's just like, losing that feeling may put an emotional, like a visceral response.

[Speaker 1] (1:53:11 - 1:53:26)

Yeah, and it's hard to describe to people. I guess if I had to try to describe it, I guess what I could say is like, imagine knowing that you could do nothing wrong, and God will like always love you. You know what I mean?

Like, that's what it felt like.

[Speaker 2] (1:53:26 - 1:53:27)

Perfection. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:53:28 - 1:53:47)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Complete. Like, it's like almost like complete protection. But like, it's not that it's like, safety.

It's hard. It is. It's peace.

It is. It's like some weird ultra peace. Yeah.

Like, you knew that, like, no matter what was happening around you, that nothing could harm you, that you were completely safe.

[Speaker 2] (1:53:48 - 1:53:57)

Yeah, there was no problem there. Yeah, you were good to go. Yeah, I told I totally I can say I had a similar experience to that.

So, thank you for sharing that for sure.

[Speaker 1] (1:53:57 - 1:54:02)

Yeah. All right. So, we talked about jumping nom again.

[Speaker 2] (1:54:03 - 1:54:05)

Connecting to God, I think we had started talking about.

[Speaker 1] (1:54:06 - 1:54:45)

So, in Sikhism, we believe, actually, before I go into the five thieves, just related to the chanting God's name, another two things that I guess kind of help you on your spiritual path is Seva. We talked about the earlier selfless service. So, basically, helping people just because it's the right thing to do.

And then two is something called Vandashakana, which just basically means, I guess, the closest English translation would be like sharing. So, the idea is that, you know, if you have some extra money, share with your neighbor. If you have.

Yeah. If you have some extra food. Yeah.

Share with your neighbor.

[Speaker 2] (1:54:46 - 1:54:55)

Yeah. Because it's really the karmic. I mean, not karmic, but like the golden rule is kind of like when you need it, someone will have it for you and you need to offer it.

Right. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:54:56 - 1:54:57)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:54:57 - 1:54:58)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:54:59 - 1:55:22)

So, like, for example, if you go to a Gurdwara today, there's this idea of what's called Lungar. Lungar is free community food. So, no matter who you are, what your race is, your background, whatever, sex, everything, no matter who you are, you get served free food.

It's vegetarian food. It's really good. That's awesome.

[Speaker 2] (1:55:23 - 1:55:26)

Is yours really good, where you're at, the one you're at?

[Speaker 1] (1:55:26 - 1:55:37)

Yeah, I would say they make pretty good food. And like now it's gotten modernized, too. So, like the Gurdwara that I go to, they actually serve free pizza.

So, if you like pizza.

[Speaker 2] (1:55:37 - 1:55:40)

Oh, wow. That's a great vegetarian option, right?

[Speaker 1] (1:55:40 - 1:55:57)

Because you're thinking like vegetarian, but like pizza, that would make sense. Yeah. So, if you like pizza and you want a free slice or two, you know where to go.

Very cool. Now, let me ask, how's like the recruitment part?

[Speaker 2] (1:55:57 - 1:56:18)

Like you seem to be, you were touched by this. So, you're openly sharing your experiences to your point so that perhaps it'll spark others to kind of talk about it, right? Which is a beautiful thing.

Is the food portion just given and just without any, like, by the way, have you heard about Sikhism?

[Speaker 1] (1:56:19 - 1:56:27)

You know what I mean? Like, there's no like. Oh, no, there's none of that.

Like, you could literally be handed out in that grace, by the grace of God. Yeah. I just want to be clear.

[Speaker 2] (1:56:27 - 1:56:28)

Like that's what that is.

[Speaker 1] (1:56:28 - 1:56:32)

I'm trying to steal your religion, man.

[Speaker 2] (1:56:32 - 1:56:52)

I'm trying to steal, man. You trust me. I'm not.

Yeah, there's no. It's a beautiful way. It's not like, it's not as a, let's go to Mormonism.

It's not like to do that. It's not like to have the, those, you know, missions or whatever to like convert. It's just to offer because that is what is Sikh.

That what Sikhism is.

[Speaker 1] (1:56:53 - 1:57:17)

Yeah. Well, and actually in Sikhism, we're not taught to like, I think it's called proselytization. Yeah.

We're not ordered to like go out and knock on people's doors and be like, hey, have you heard about Guru Nanak Devji? Now these days, there are people on the streets that do what's called Prachar, which is just passing out like leaflets just to get people's awareness up. But we're not forcing anybody to join Sikhism.

[Speaker 2] (1:57:18 - 1:57:52)

No, not at all. And I look at that as, for example, the Jewish religion didn't have much of that. But Christianity, which is basically Judaism 2.0, had a better PR department. And if you look at the way they did that, man, they used like whatever they could, tool they could to convert as many people as they could. It was a very interesting way, whereas you is more like, it'll touch you, you'll understand it, and you will come to it, and you will live it, and then you'll be learned about it versus that push to like proselytize, like to your point.

[Speaker 1] (1:57:53 - 1:58:09)

Yeah. Our idea, like I guess if I had to say related to potentially converting people is just like, if you just do what God wants his followers to do, people will come of themselves. You don't have to push them to.

Right.

[Speaker 2] (1:58:11 - 1:58:12)

It's a beautiful message.

[Speaker 1] (1:58:13 - 1:58:45)

Yeah. And I will add one little disclaimer, just what we were talking about before. If you don't look like me, chances are you will get approached maybe.

And again, no conversion, but obviously people might ask you like, hey, I noticed you're Caucasian. What brought you to the Godard? That makes sense.

Yeah. You have a weird kind of religious profiling. I get it.

I mean, it's so funny though. That's an interesting point you make, but it's like, yeah, that makes total sense.

[Speaker 2] (1:58:45 - 1:58:57)

It makes total sense that you would absolutely stick out because you'd be like, where would you, it would be very unique to see like a blonde haired, blue eyed Swedish person going to one of your, you know, locations.

[Speaker 1] (1:58:58 - 1:58:59)

Let's go to Godard.

[Speaker 2] (1:58:59 - 1:59:01)

So that's cool. It's interesting though.

[Speaker 1] (1:59:01 - 1:59:06)

Yeah. Has Sikhism taken hold in any kind of like yoga practice?

[Speaker 2] (1:59:06 - 1:59:21)

Because it seems like obviously Buddhism's a big one, Hindu and some of these other just larger that had once again, better advertising, bigger advertising budgets, you know, versus some of the other ones.

[Speaker 1] (1:59:21 - 2:00:05)

Has this kind of started to take hold in certain? Well, so a lot of Sikhs have definitely migrated out of India. So it's definitely more, I guess, spread out across the world.

I would say that, so again, the religion itself is only 500-ish years old. So we haven't had the same amount of time as maybe some other traditions have had to kind of do our PR stuff. But you got to wedge in there too, man.

It's like, it's a rough, it's a rough, you know, it's a rough, what's that called? Industry, I guess. Yeah.

And I don't mean to trivialize it. I just mean, obviously if you're choosing a faith, you have one to choose.

[Speaker 2] (2:00:06 - 2:00:07)

There's competition.

[Speaker 1] (2:00:08 - 2:00:34)

Yeah. And I would say the awareness about who is a Sikh and what is a Sikh is definitely becoming better, especially after 9-11, just because there was a lot of misidentification stuff going on that was causing a lot of hate crimes. So there's been a big push to spread Sikh awareness just so that way hate crimes are reduced.

[Speaker 2] (2:00:36 - 2:00:42)

Was that Sikh related or would that have been being Indian and Middle Eastern having a similar visual profile?

[Speaker 1] (2:00:43 - 2:00:51)

It's the visual profile thing. So unfortunately, that makes sense. Just because there was a lot of talk about terrorism going on at the time.

Right. Unfortunately.

[Speaker 2] (2:00:51 - 2:01:05)

There was never a Sikh connection, right? No one ever implicated. No, no, no.

There was no Sikh connection. Okay. I just want to be clear about that.

Once again, it's kind of a profiling thing in that way. It's kind of like what we just talked about if you had a blonde hair, blue eyed guy walking into.

[Speaker 1] (2:01:06 - 2:01:07)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (2:01:08 - 2:01:46)

Yeah. And it's unfortunate that that happens. I mean, I understand.

I'm a white guy, so it's whatever. I have no right to say anything, so I'll just shut up. Yeah.

It's a sticky wiki. I don't know. I don't know how to parse it, to be honest, because I say if you stop me, I'm like, okay.

But I also totally understand stopping just because X does not equal Y by any means. We've obviously spoken about liberty and how individual responsibility and accountability is what it's all about. It's all about the individual.

[Speaker 1] (2:01:46 - 2:01:51)

Yeah. All right. So now let's move to the five thieves.

[Speaker 2] (2:01:52 - 2:01:52)

Yes.

[Speaker 1] (2:01:52 - 2:01:53)

The themes.

[Speaker 2] (2:01:53 - 2:01:54)

Is that what they're called?

[Speaker 1] (2:01:54 - 2:02:10)

Themes? Yeah. So they're called the Panj Chaur, and Panj Chaur basically translates into five thieves.

And the reason why they're called five thieves is because these five things basically steal your spiritual energy and prevent you from spiritual progression.

[Speaker 2] (2:02:11 - 2:02:15)

That's right. Thieves, not themes. Sorry, I said themes.

Thieves, like stealers.

[Speaker 1] (2:02:16 - 2:04:26)

Yeah, like stealers. Yeah. And so again, this goes back to that oneness.

So Guru Nanak tells us there's this oneness of reality, but these five things basically act as veils that prevent us from spiritually progressing, so that way we can't experience this oneness. So these five thieves are lust, anger, greed, attachment, and ego. The biggest one being ego, just because that's the most difficult one to defeat, or at least overcome.

And that's because we all love ourselves, right? And so it's hard to put ourselves- Surrendering is really hard, man. Yeah.

It's hard to surrender and kind of give everything to God. Now, sometimes Sikhism gets a little criticized in that people will say, you have these five thieves and there's no way you could potentially overcome these five thieves and become realized or whatever, right? Now, they have a point, but basically the way it's supposed to work is you're supposed to try your best to keep these five things in check, but ultimately it is God that is going to eliminate them completely.

So Sikhs don't walk around saying, hey, I'm working on my five thieves and one day I'm going to overcome them and I'm going to be like a super Sikh or whatever, a true Sikh, right? We understand that just because we're in these human bodies and have weaknesses and all that. By ourselves, we will never fully eliminate these five.

We can try our best to keep them in check, but ultimately we need a guru, we need the guru, and we need God to ultimately give us grace to ultimately unveil everything, remove those five thieves, so that way we can experience a hundred percent, I guess, relationship with God.

[Speaker 2] (2:04:26 - 2:04:33)

Right. They're divine tenants, so you need to be divine to do it. Humans aren't divine, so they need help.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:33 - 2:04:35)

Right, right, right.

[Speaker 2] (2:04:35 - 2:04:54)

So that's why we have the guru. But the thieves totally make sense because to your point, you don't conquer them. Lust is always there.

It's just whether you are able to manage it. A thought comes to mind and then you're like, okay, well, then you're good.

[Speaker 1] (2:04:54 - 2:04:56)

Obviously, not obsessing over it.

[Speaker 2] (2:04:56 - 2:05:20)

That's not a lustful thing, but we all have lustful thoughts. We have greed. There's a point where sometimes you reach for something that someone grabs and you're like, oh, crap.

That's instinct too. It's nice that it allows you that grace because it's a way to try to live as well as you can, but knowing that you are not going to be perfect at it.

[Speaker 1] (2:05:21 - 2:07:00)

Yeah. And the thing about trying to keep these thieves in check, who's the easiest person to fool? The person who thinks they can't be fooled, right?

So if you think, oh yeah, I defeated lust five years ago. It's not going to get me. Guess what?

It's going to get you. Well, what's even funnier is, guess what you've just given into? You've just tripled your ego score because your ego is now so inflated thinking you can't do the other stuff.

You know what I mean? It's funny because we talk about it. Ego is a great one because it's like, the person who's given up everything has just as big an ego as a person who's acquired everything.

Look how awesome I am. I've given it all up. It's just the same ego on the flip side of the coin as a guy saying, look at me, look at what I've acquired.

I know that's a weird perspective, but it's like, just because you sacrifice does not always come from grace and good. It sometimes comes from ego. Yeah.

And I actually, and perhaps this is extreme, but I actually sometimes will not do Seva if I feel like my ego is expressing itself because I feel vulnerable in the sense that if I do Seva today, if I do selfless service, even if I go in with the right intention, if my brain is giving me indications, I'm like, oh man, we're going to look so good after this. I don't do Seva. I will just get served rather than serve others just because I don't want to potentially risk my spiritual development by accidentally becoming boastful.

[Speaker 2] (2:07:00 - 2:07:06)

That's a huge humility way to show your humility as well for the same reason.

[Speaker 1] (2:07:07 - 2:07:30)

Yeah. And now of course there's a danger in that too is that you could do that so many times that you get lazy. You're very comfortable not serving.

As they're fanning and giving you grapes, you're like, I just can't serve. It would be so wrong of me. Yeah.

So it's sometimes it wins, sometimes it loses, I guess.

[Speaker 2] (2:07:32 - 2:07:41)

Which one of the ones, like obviously ego is probably the hardest, but of the ones of the others, which one would you say is your struggle or how would you rank them for you?

[Speaker 1] (2:07:42 - 2:09:13)

So in terms of one that I think is very sneaky for me is anger. I feel like most of the time I'm fine, but there are moments where anger will kind of slip past my filter, if you will, and I get angry, right? I get too upset about something.

So anger is definitely, I would say one of the most difficult ones for me only because I feel like I'll have it good and then something happens that ticks me off. Lust is a big one, but that's a big one for everybody pretty much. I feel like I have greed pretty good, and I'm not trying to say that in like an ego sense.

Well, you're a provider for your family with your family, right? So you have a family, you have a wife, you have children, child? Oh no, not children yet.

Okay. But you have a wife. So you have a partnership and you're together with them.

You want to provide and protect and she wants to do the same. Yeah. There's that greed, but it's not greed for you.

You know what I mean? So it's not like a selfish greed. Yeah.

Well, it's actually really cool that you mentioned that because one of the techniques, one of the, I guess, best techniques you can do to keep these five thieves in check is use them for God's purpose in the sense that, so like don't be greedy, but be greedy in the sense of you want to serve more people or you want to help more people than the other guy, you know? Right. I got you.

[Speaker 2] (2:09:13 - 2:09:15)

Yeah. Be competitive. Right.

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (2:09:15 - 2:10:11)

Reverse psychology kind of. I got you. Yeah.

I totally get what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.

It's kind of like, okay, let's use, not to be too glib, but like, if you ever saw OfficeSpace where he's like, look at, look at Chad or whatever, he's got 34 pieces of flare and Claire's only got 15 pieces of flare. He's like, well, you want me to wear 30 pieces? He goes, no, you only have to wear 15.

He's like, well, if you want me to wear 30, just tell me to wear 30. And he's like, no, but he's trying harder. You know, it's like, it's weird.

Like to your point, that competitiveness, it's kind of fun. Yeah. And then there's attachment.

I would say, I mean, obviously like I would, if I lost a loved one, I would be, you know, emotionally affected, psychologically affected potentially too. But I do try my best to at least have a little bit of detachment when it comes to my relationships and personal belongings and things like that. And then ego.

[Speaker 2] (2:10:12 - 2:10:35)

What about addiction to your phone? Like, it's funny what attachment might have been generations ago and what attachment is now, right? Like look at our addictive personality and how we're just like hooked on that phone or how we just have to, you know, so what are your thoughts on something like that in regard to sickism in like the 21st century?

[Speaker 1] (2:10:35 - 2:11:06)

Yeah. Well, again, I think there's a sneaky element, right? So like you might think you're good on attaching, but then, you know, you realize, oh, I just spent two hours on Facebook, you know, and you wouldn't give up that time for, you know, other stuff.

And so you're too attached to it. But again, right, you can use that reverse psychology so you can be attached, but be attached to like serving God more, right? Yeah.

Be attached to healthy things, right? Yeah. It's kind of like, let's be honest, like if you, if Alcoholics Anonymous, there's that higher being element to it.

[Speaker 2] (2:11:06 - 2:11:14)

You know, the giving up to that is like, that makes it all work for those people. And that's how it is, you know, so.

[Speaker 1] (2:11:15 - 2:11:34)

Yeah. And then ego, I try my best to keep that in check as well. I just, so one thing I kind of try to practice is like, if I'm, if I'm receiving like praise, I try to like reverse it and give the other person praise.

So that way, just so that way, I don't hold on to it, I guess.

[Speaker 2] (2:11:36 - 2:11:41)

Very nice. Yeah. So you, they're all, they're all challenging in some way or another.

So it's very interesting.

[Speaker 1] (2:11:42 - 2:11:42)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (2:11:42 - 2:11:48)

And like I said, I would fail miserably at all of those. I am an angry, lustful, ego driven man.

[Speaker 1] (2:11:50 - 2:11:55)

Yeah. And like I said, at Six, we don't believe that we're ever going to, you know, be perfect. And that's beautiful.

[Speaker 2] (2:11:55 - 2:11:56)

That's beautiful.

[Speaker 1] (2:11:57 - 2:12:07)

You know, hopefully one day, you know, God gives me some grace and I can eliminate them, you know, 99%. But, you know, that's up to God, not me.

[Speaker 2] (2:12:08 - 2:12:25)

Yeah. I think, I think if, you know, if it is the way your faith is, because that's, we'll just, we'll just go on that. If that's the way it is, then you have to leave the physical for it to become whole, right?

To become completely divine. I mean, this, this is an anchor.

[Speaker 1] (2:12:27 - 2:13:12)

And then I guess the last thing I'll mention about Sikhism is what are called the Khans. So I actually mentioned one of them at the start of our conversation, which was Sach Khand. So that translates into the realm of truth.

So Khand means like the realm and Sach means truth. So we have the, the Sach Khand means the realm of truth. So there's five Khans.

So everything's based on five in a weird, in an interesting way? Because you've got your five, right? The five leaders and five.

I mean, once again, I just make weird connections, but I think, you know, Pagan and Pentagram, and there's a five, there's a five side to that. I'm just, and not, not to associate it with Satanism, but Pentagram was not Satanism to begin with. It was, it was Pagan.

[Speaker 2] (2:13:12 - 2:13:18)

It's just outside of faith. So just once again, I just think of these things when I connect them.

[Speaker 1] (2:13:18 - 2:14:07)

Yeah. I mean, there might be some kind of weird connection somewhere, but there are five though. It does seem fives, fives and threes, right?

Yeah. And so the significant, the significance of these five realms is that you can understand them in terms of like a mental state, but they're also supposed to kind of be like, I guess, realms in the sense that your soul can kind of be in. And so these five realms are kind of like, you could think of them as like spiritual ladders, if you will.

And so depending on which one you're in, you kind of know where you're at. So obviously if you're in the fifth kind, the realm of truth, you've made it right. You're, you're with God.

[Speaker 2] (2:14:08 - 2:14:08)

Okay.

[Speaker 1] (2:14:08 - 2:15:11)

So that's the rung of the ladder, right? In that way. Yeah.

So that the truth is the ultimate, is the, is the ultimate one? Yeah. So truth is the ultimate one.

Okay. Um, and so like, so for example, the, the 10 human gurus, we would say that they were individuals that were basically sitting in such kind, uh, because they were connected to God in that way. Um, now the cool thing about such kind, uh, just like a real cool tidbit that I wanted to mention is that if you reach the spiritual level of such kind, and you're connected to God, a hundred percent, according to our tradition, you're so spiritually progressed at that point that whatever you say happens, you basically have that, uh, power.

Now you might be saying, you know, you might be speaking into existence. Yeah. You speak and something, they will literally come into existence.

You're essentially doing miracles at that point.

[Speaker 2] (2:15:11 - 2:15:20)

Well, you're God. I mean, that's what in the biblical faith, God spoke the world into existence from my understanding, I think.

[Speaker 1] (2:15:20 - 2:15:22)

Um, so we wouldn't say that.

[Speaker 2] (2:15:22 - 2:15:22)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (2:15:23 - 2:15:32)

So, um, we wouldn't say that you're God at that point, but you know, I'm just saying it's it once again, you're not that religion either.

[Speaker 2] (2:15:32 - 2:15:35)

You're not that faith. So it's completely different. I'm just drawing parallels.

[Speaker 1] (2:15:36 - 2:16:30)

Yeah. I guess what we would say is that you're, you're one of those five thieves. So you got God on your side at that point.

Yeah. You got God on your side, essentially at that point. And you're basically, so this is where you're able to put the stick on the head and make them do, you make someone who can't speak, speak and make tricks and do these things.

And it's not necessarily that you're doing it. It's that God's using through you. Right.

Because those veils are no longer there. You're basically a an instrument that God can use, um, to have God's will expressed. Um, and, and again, right.

So if you've reached this state, right, you're not, uh, what I'll say, like an evil person anymore or whatever. Right. Like, cause those five things have been eliminated.

And so even though you're speaking and bringing things into existence, you're bringing into existence what God wants into existence.

[Speaker 2] (2:16:30 - 2:16:35)

Right. And it has to be that way, because without that connection, you can't have that power.

[Speaker 1] (2:16:36 - 2:16:36)

Right.

[Speaker 2] (2:16:36 - 2:16:38)

So it has to be aligned with that.

[Speaker 1] (2:16:38 - 2:16:54)

Right. And so it's not like you're, you know, bringing into existence things that would cause harm to other individuals or abuse of power, things like that. That actually reminds me of the law of attraction in an interesting way, because it talks about you kind of being along the leaf of the wind or the current, right?

[Speaker 2] (2:16:54 - 2:17:03)

You align yourself with how it is. You change your alignment to the world so that it then speaks back to you in a weird way.

[Speaker 1] (2:17:04 - 2:17:23)

It's a loose, once again, loose analogies, you know, but yeah, it's a beautiful tenet. So what are the other four rungs, if you don't mind me asking? Yeah.

Yeah. Um, hopefully I can remember all of the names. Well, I don't, I, yeah, if you have just like the, you got truth and then.

Yeah. Okay. So, well, so truth is at the end, right?

[Speaker 2] (2:17:23 - 2:17:24)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (2:17:24 - 2:17:27)

That's the one we're not getting to, that's the one I'm not getting to.

[Speaker 2] (2:17:27 - 2:17:27)

All right.

[Speaker 1] (2:17:28 - 2:17:38)

Let's start to the first one. So the first one is called Dharam. It's pronounced Dharamkhand.

But if you look at the spelling, it's kind of, it looks like Dharma, like Dharamkhand.

[Speaker 2] (2:17:39 - 2:17:39)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (2:17:39 - 2:19:02)

So that is basically the realm of Dharma. And so the way you can kind of recognize that you're in that level is that you are basically doing what you're kind of supposed to be doing. So basically you're doing what God has created you to do and be, you're following your Dharma.

So like, for example, a tree is in, you could say in a Dharmic state in that a tree is doing what a tree should be doing. Right. Now, most of us, we are not probably doing what we were kind of, I guess.

That sounds even hard just to be, that's, that's the first one? Yeah, that's the first one. I don't think I can get to like, do like a couple of the things like you got to do all like, I don't know.

I get, I kind of get it, but yeah. Now you might be saying, well, okay, so how do I get there? Right.

So the idea is that as you're developing yourself spiritually and working on the five thieves and chanting God's name, you start to follow the prescriptions, I'll call them, that are in the Guru Granth Sahib, the holy text. And as you're following those prescriptions, that's basically you following God's will. Because the Guru Granth Sahib is writings from God or inspired by God, uh, from God.

[Speaker 2] (2:19:03 - 2:19:06)

And so if you're doing what's in that kind of way, general way.

[Speaker 1] (2:19:06 - 2:20:08)

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so if you're following the prescriptions in the Guru Granth Sahib, you're following what the Guru is telling you to do.

You're following God's will. And so, you know, sense you're kind of doing what you should be doing. Right.

Um, so that's the first level. Um, and I am not on that level. I know what I'm saying.

It just seems like a lot to do right off the bat. I mean, it's like, man, I got to make it that far just to get to the first step. Um, yeah, I'm in like the baby steps.

I'm probably better at truth. I'll tell you how it is. Anyway.

Um, all right. So after that, after, after you've lived your life, exactly how you should. Um, well, at least you're starting to live your life.

I know I'm just messing with you. So, uh, after, uh, Dharamkhand, um, there is.

[Speaker 2] (2:20:11 - 2:20:12)

It's okay if you don't remember.

[Speaker 1] (2:20:12 - 2:20:22)

Yeah, I'm just trying. You mind if I look them up real quick? Yeah, I don't mind.

No, not at all.

[Speaker 2] (2:20:23 - 2:20:30)

We'll play some Jeopardy music while that's going a little bit. So yeah, I just, it's very interesting though.

[Speaker 1] (2:20:31 - 2:20:49)

Do they all have English translations or? Yeah. Yeah.

They all have English translations. So you have like, I guess one would be just living or livelihood and like way of living or will be the first. They all have a like spiritual, uh, significance to them.

[Speaker 2] (2:20:51 - 2:21:02)

Yeah. I would mean it would certainly make a lot of sense, but, uh, sorry.

[Speaker 1] (2:21:02 - 2:21:04)

I didn't mean to put the podcast on hold there.

[Speaker 2] (2:21:05 - 2:21:05)

Okay.

[Speaker 1] (2:21:05 - 2:21:14)

So we have Dharamkhand. Uh, sometimes that's also called the realm of righteous action, just because if you're doing what you're supposed to be doing, you're doing the right thing.

[Speaker 2] (2:21:14 - 2:21:14)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (2:21:14 - 2:21:15)

That makes sense. Action. Okay.

[Speaker 2] (2:21:16 - 2:21:16)

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (2:21:16 - 2:21:47)

Uh, okay. So the second, uh, khand is called Gyankhand. So the word Gyan means wisdom or knowledge.

So that's the realm of knowledge. Um, so the idea is that by, after you've started living and following the guru's prescriptions and things like that, you now have high spiritual knowledge. So you're somebody that can, uh, I guess, help others in the sense that you can get sharing the knowledge.

Yeah. You can use a big part of that. Yeah.

You can, uh, I guess, spiritually enlighten other people to some degree.

[Speaker 2] (2:21:47 - 2:21:53)

Yeah. Like sharing your experience on how, what you've done to get to that part where you can get to where you're at. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (2:21:53 - 2:21:53)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (2:21:53 - 2:21:54)

Teaching.

[Speaker 1] (2:21:54 - 2:22:36)

Yeah. Uh, the third khand is called Saramkhand, uh, spelled S-A-R-A-M. Uh, so that's the realm of spiritual endeavor.

Um, I don't exactly remember why that one's called that one. Um, and then the next khand is called Garamkhand. Uh, Garam is close to the word like karma.

Um, and so Garamkhand means the realm of grace. Um, so at that point, uh, you've got God's favor, essentially. Um, and you're not accumulating, I guess, maybe bad karma in a sense, cause you're basically at that point doing what God essentially wants you to do.

Um, and then like we said, the last one is called Sachkhand, the realm of truth.

[Speaker 2] (2:22:37 - 2:23:08)

Right. Wow. That's a lot of stuff right there.

Yeah. The first one just like sounds almost overwhelming just to be able to have all the act to act that way all the time. I mean, there's a lot of those similar tenants.

I mean, I would think that there would be clicks and steps and plateaus and kind of like working out over time. Yeah. Um, how do you know of anybody who's reached any of the realm from your understanding like that at your, at your local?

[Speaker 1] (2:23:09 - 2:23:44)

So in our history, in Sikh history, we do have individuals, um, that we call Sants. Sant is just basically our version of the word Saint. Uh, we would say that those individuals at the very least are probably somewhere, uh, going in between maybe like condom number two and God number three, maybe.

Right. Um, like they don't have God's full blessing, but you can tell there's something special about them that they're in line with what Sikhi, Sikhism kind of wants you to be doing.

[Speaker 2] (2:23:44 - 2:23:57)

Yeah. I mean, there would be a hierarchy, like, be honest, like I played tennis growing up, but I wasn't Pete Sampras or like Roger Federer. You know what I mean?

Like you've got the experts of the experts, right? The best of the best.

[Speaker 1] (2:23:58 - 2:26:06)

So yeah. Very nice. Awesome, man.

So what else we got all in a nutshell. All right. Now go to your local.

Uh, so yeah. So what else we, what else we got to talk about, my friend? Um, well, I guess, uh, since you're wearing the shirt, um, all you Sikhi to kind of just go into, I guess, UFOs and aliens.

There you go. All right. So let's close it on that.

Cause we've been, it's been a little bit, it's been two and a half hours now, which has been very nice. So let's close it on that part. But, um, I definitely am looking forward to another conversation.

So, so let's, uh, yeah, let's connect the two. So we got the alien guy right there. Okay.

Um, so just real quick, when I say aliens, I'm not necessarily referring to like what we traditionally would consider an alien, like a gray or a little green person or whatever. Um, but in Sikhism, um, our understanding of the universe is basically that there are worlds upon worlds so that we're not the only people in town basically. Um, now we're not necessarily told what else is out there, but our understanding of reality is basically that God, uh, in this creative process has created multiple universes, multiple realities.

It's infinite. Nobody can count it. It, it's, uh, just goes on and on.

And that in these other places, wherever they are, either in our universe or potentially somewhere else in some other universe or, uh, plane of existence or something, uh, we believe that every, every conscious entity in the universe is basically on a spiritual progression and is trying to connect itself with this oneness, with this one divine, uh, God. And so to, I guess, connect it to aliens, uh, I'm just trying to express the idea that if aliens showed up tomorrow, Sikhs would have no problem with it because as far as we know, there are other people out there somewhere.

[Speaker 2] (2:26:08 - 2:26:11)

Oh, so it wouldn't like blow your whole faith apart.

[Speaker 1] (2:26:12 - 2:26:15)

Right. So, I mean, obviously seeing an alien, that's a great question.

[Speaker 2] (2:26:15 - 2:26:38)

That's a, you kind of pre, you kind of pre-answered a great question. A lot of people do have, right. It's like, you know, the whole God thing in Jesus, it's like, what if it's not Jesus?

It's like some Pleiadian or some Arcturian guy from another planet. And you're like, you're, you're like, okay. And they would be like, I have no idea how to grasp that concept because we're the only people in the entire universe.

Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (2:26:39 - 2:27:03)

Yeah. And I mean, it would obviously still be a little bit of a shock only because obviously, well, I mean, yeah, we're not used to seeing people other than us. But I watched Star Wars and I'm in shock.

Like, yeah. But yeah, overall, I would say Sikhs would just kind of be like, hey, welcome. What are you doing to get to God?

Because whatever I'm doing is not working.

[Speaker 2] (2:27:05 - 2:27:14)

Yeah. You guys got closer. You got to the stars without a problem.

So that's been interesting. Yeah. So visitors, are we going to have visitors soon or what?

[Speaker 1] (2:27:14 - 2:27:20)

What's going on? Okay. So now we're stepping away from Sikhism.

[Speaker 2] (2:27:22 - 2:27:26)

Well, I mean, we can finish with Sikhism. I don't want to pull you too far away from it.

[Speaker 1] (2:27:27 - 2:28:16)

Yeah. So as far as I'm aware, there's no scripture or passage that talks about if or when we're supposed to expect to see any other beings. We just are told that God's reality, God's universe is infinite and that there are other beings.

But we're not told if, if, and when we're ever going to meet these other entities. So Sikhism being 500 years old, was that one of the earlier pieces of the, I guess, scripture, for lack of a better term? So part of this has to do with stuff that's in scripture.

Part of it also has to do with a story that's part of our tradition. And maybe we can end it on this. Oh, cool.

[Speaker 2] (2:28:17 - 2:28:17)

Let's do that. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (2:28:17 - 2:30:39)

Yeah. So there's the story where Guru Nanak, he basically, you know, he's doing his thing. And there's this guy that shows up that has a young child.

And this guy, he is Muslim, if I remember correctly. And in Islam, I believe there's like seven heavens or something like that. And Guru Nanak basically counters his argument and says, there's actually an infinite amount of worlds out there.

There's not just seven heavens, there's like, you know, who knows, right? There's a lot. So many that we can't count them.

And this guy's kind of like, you know, no way, you know, you're just making stuff up, right? And so Guru Nanak, or so the guy basically tells Guru Nanak, can you take me to one of these other realities, these other realms that you're talking about? And Guru Nanak basically says, I won't take you, but I'll take your kid, I'll take your child.

And so according to tradition, the way this... He's always playing games, isn't he? He's always playing some little trick with something.

He's always like, don't pay him mind my hand while I'm doing this thing. And so the way the story goes is Guru Nanak basically takes this child and they go to these other realms. And eventually they come back.

And the way that it gets proven that the child did go to these other realms is that the child brought back what we call prasad. So prasad is basically, how would I think of it as like, food that's been blessed. At Gotwara, there's a specific type of food, it's called kara, which is just basically think of like, dough, sugar, and some other ingredients mixed together.

And you eat that. It's kind of like holy food, if you will. But anyway, so this kid that went with Guru Nanak to these other places, these other realms, came back with prasad and gave it to his father to kind of prove like, hey, Guru Nanak really took me to these other places.

And I met people and they gave me this food, this prasad, and here you go.

[Speaker 2] (2:30:40 - 2:30:40)

Very cool.

[Speaker 1] (2:30:41 - 2:31:28)

Yeah, that's very interesting. All right, man. Well, Pinder, thank you so much for joining Not Conscious for the first time.

Hopefully we'll have you on for some fun stuff and some other stuff. You're officially on the 39th most inappropriate podcast or something. Best inappropriate podcast.

Hey, there's 80 of them. We made the top half, so I'm happy about that. And then I looked at the list and I'm like, oh, maybe I shouldn't want to be on this list.

And then Howie Mandel's on it. So I'm like, OK, Howie Mandel's on it. So I'm OK with that.

He's at 50. Yeah, congratulations on making that list again. Oh, thank you so much.

I got this weird email and I was just like, OK. So I looked it up. I was like, I'm thinking scam all the way.

And then I looked up the guy on LinkedIn and I'm like, oh, I guess the guy's connected. So whatever, founder, still nothing, but it's still fun.

[Speaker 2] (2:31:30 - 2:31:40)

I'm completely honored and baffled that I have any when they talk about the criteria. And I'm like, or a criteria. I'm like, where would I qualify for any of those?

It doesn't make any sense.

[Speaker 1] (2:31:41 - 2:31:49)

So that that anyone even listens. I'm so honored. I hope a lot of people listen to this because I think this is a very unique.

[Speaker 2] (2:31:51 - 2:32:01)

Way to perceive the experience of the world through the faith. So I think it's a great way and the way you express it and shared it, I'm really grateful for that. So thank you for sharing it that way.

[Speaker 1] (2:32:02 - 2:32:17)

Yeah, my pleasure. And thank you again so much for having me on the show and allowed me to share Sikhism with both you and all your listeners. And I'm sure I made some mistakes along the way.

They're coming at you.

[Speaker 2] (2:32:17 - 2:32:18)

They're going to come at you.

[Speaker 1] (2:32:18 - 2:32:46)

Trust me. Yeah. But I'm not a Sikh scholar.

I'm just somebody that connected with his roots and just every day tries to learn as much as he can about where he's from and his tradition and hopefully learns enough that he can then spread it to other people. And hopefully someone possibly in the tradition listens to this and can contact you and maybe start a connection and a network of some sort out of that. So in whatever way, I'm hopeful.

[Speaker 2] (2:32:46 - 2:32:59)

I think actually there's probably a reason for it to your point is like somebody is going to hear this because they were meant to. You know, it's just one of those things. It's kind of how it works.

Yeah. So we've got to surrender. So all right.

[Speaker 1] (2:32:59 - 2:34:31)

Well, if any final words, anything else you want to want to share before we call it a day? Can I have some time to just think real quick? Yeah, absolutely.

Let's see. Final words. No worries, man.

And this, like I said, this is long format, so I don't cut anything. There's no there's no worry here. I mean, we've been having great conversations.

So I guess I'll just end it at this. So for anybody that heard all the things that I said about Sikhism and is interested in learning more about Sikhism, either from myself or from people that are more spiritually evolved than I am, I would definitely recommend on YouTube. There's a YouTube channel called Basics of Sikhi.

They have a lot of videos that are in English so you can learn about Sikhi. They have introductory videos as well as advanced videos. And if you're interested in Sikhism from more of a philosophical take, there's a YouTube channel called Nanak Nam.

There's an individual on there. He goes a lot into the deep philosophical stuff about Sikhi. So I would recommend those two YouTube channels if you are interested in learning more about Sikhism.

Excellent. Thank you so much. Can you share me all the links and everything and I'll happily post everything underneath.

Yeah, absolutely. I can do that. Yeah.

Just send me a blurb or something like that. I'm happy to. I'm happy to add and share whatever you want.

Like I said, I don't have to believe in what you believe in to believe in you, my friend. So thank you for sharing that. I admire that faith.

[Speaker 2] (2:34:31 - 2:34:46)

It seems like a beautiful way to live, regardless of the connection to even a higher presence of some sort. It's if you if people lived that way, I think. Everything would be better and better for sure.

[Speaker 1] (2:34:47 - 2:34:59)

Yeah, I agree. Cool. Well, thank you again.

Have a great day. I'm going to hit stop here, but please don't go anywhere. So thank you very much.

Thanks for joining. Knocked Conscious. Have a great one.