Transcript of my conversation with Jin Chohan 2/17/2023

(0:21 - 0:29)

I appreciate it. Excellent. Yeah.

So this is your time. So however we want to start, I'm, literally, we're hitting record now. So it's going to be played like this.

(0:30 - 1:44)

Jin, welcome to Not Conscious. I know very little bit about you, but I understand you, you started your life as a dancer at a young age. Is that correct? I, I did.

And just before we start, actually, can I just really quick clean it? I think it's yeah, it's a little smudgy. It might be the light coming through. Absolutely.

Take your time. I apologize. Not at all.

Not at all. Hopefully. Oh, there you go.

That's a little better. Excellent. Much better.

Yes. Welcome. So, so like I said, I mean, I, I know very little bit about you.

I'd love for you to share something. I, I, I, like I said, we got thrust in this because a couple of reasons we'll get into those later, but initially the, the part about this is I'm here for you to share your art and where you came from and how you got to where you did. I'm not here to ask you the generic interview questions.

I'd love for you to share it, how you see it. And this isn't question answer stuff. This is just a curiosity about picking your brain and how you got to where you got.

(1:45 - 1:49)

Yeah. No, first off, thank you for reaching out. I appreciate it.

(1:51 - 3:05)

Absolutely. I was seeing the invite and it was through a Twitter conversation, so. Yeah, absolutely.

It was an interesting conversation. We'll get to that a little bit later, I'm sure, because I got a little, well, we'll talk about it, but nothing too crazy. So yeah, a little about me.

I started as a dancer quite a while ago now. And I'm sorry, let me take my phone and see it. I started off as a dancer at 15.

And of course I was inspired by Michael Jackson. I was inspired by the Twins and Daniel Craig, these other dancers. And just watching like hip hop dancers on TV, like Mr. Wiggles, he was in a Limp Bizkit video, and I just went absolutely insane.

So I watched that. And then I basically, I went to university to study forensic science, but that was more, my parents wanted me to be educators. And I kind of, I graduated, but I got straight into dance after.

I knew that's what I wanted to do, so I threw about seven or nine years of training full time. And then I started auditioning. So were you dancing while you were going to uni at the time? Yeah, I was.

(3:06 - 3:16)

Were you part of like a dance troupe or some kind of group? I wasn't, no. And actually I never was. My whole point with dance was to create my own style.

(3:16 - 4:15)

So I kind of learned it backwards. And it's only now that I realize that, it's like I was having an egg. I tried to create the shell and then have the foundation.

So I kind of did it a little backwards. But you know what though? We find a lot of creativity that way though. I mean, it's kind of like sometimes reinventing the wheel does come up with a new idea.

Maybe not a new wheel, but a new, a different idea in offshoot. Yeah, absolutely. Because my whole point was, if the Boogaloo's can create a dance style in the seventies and they had no base to go off, I mean, of course they had jazz and certain dance forms from South America, from South America.

Why can't we today create something new? That was my whole point with dance. And I kind of got to a level where I was creating my own language in dance. And then I got a little older and now I still dance, but I don't want to pursue it professionally.

(4:15 - 4:53)

I kind of had a natural transition into video because I used to film my own. I used to actually, I filmed every single rehearsal. I think I can count them on one hand, the ones that I didn't rehearse, didn't film.

Because I used to go home and watch it and see my mistakes and click my angles and everything. So that kind of fell hand in hand with that. And I would have the idea in my mind that I would start filming stuff.

And then from there, it was a real quick transition back home in England. So I started filming weddings and, you know, artists here and there. After years, I fell in love with documentary.

(4:54 - 5:20)

You filmed behind the camera when you were performing in front of it. Yeah, that's right. Interesting.

Have you ever thought about releasing all yours on YouTube or anything like that? Just putting a progression of all the dates and... Oh my God, no. And actually a lot of the rehearsals I lost because there was a hard drive that actually broke. I do have some of them still.

It was for years. I think I trained full time for about seven or nine years. It was like six to seven days a week.

(5:21 - 5:36)

So do you mind if I ask what, I didn't look up your specific bio, how old are you or what year were you born if you don't mind me asking? Eighty three. No, no problem. Okay.

So you were born, right? I guess, what, Thriller was 82? I think so. Yeah. 82.

(5:36 - 6:11)

82, 83, something like that, I think, right? So you would have been born right about that, the peak, right? So how, how did you at 15, did you grow up enjoying that, you know, the style of Michael Jackson or did it hit at 15? Yeah, it hit at 15. I actually, I was never a fan before 15. I'm talking artistically at that point.

I remember watching certain things as we do, it's like osmosis. He was so big at that time, but I was never a fan. Right.

(6:12 - 7:32)

It was Thriller and Beat It that really got me. And then I got into hip hop and jazz. But way in the beginning, probably for that year, it was, I was just addicted to Michael Jackson's style and learning where that came from.

And then watching all of the, you know, the Jacksons, the variety show, there was little clips on the internet. Absolutely. Yeah.

I just watched, I watched a documentary called Hitsville and it's about, it's about Motown and they show a little Michael Jackson in the, in the studio doing James Brown and just watching him just glide, just glide at like at eight or 10 years old, you know, it's like, it's amazing. So, yeah. Absolutely.

So you, so you grew up, obviously outside of that, I'm a little older. So I grew up with, kind of with him. I grew up, I was born in 74.

So he was a little older than I am, but so young Michael Jackson would have been, my parents would have introduced me to Jackson 5 and all that. And then I grew up obviously with the other stuff. So, so you got in the dance.

So then you really got into Michael Jackson kind of as a person as well with the dance. Did it kind of go hand in glove or did that come later? I kind of came later. I was only interested in the artist side, the creative side of it.

(7:33 - 8:39)

And although I was in, I was inspired by Michael Jackson's dance style more, more because he had an emotion attached to the dance and I couldn't really find that with another performer. And actually I would say the twins, these two twins are probably inspired me more as dancers than Michael Jackson. I don't know if you've seen them, the twins, they're absolutely incredible.

I have not. I, I, I'd love to though. I'd love to hear some of that.

If you have some information you can share it, I'll even post some information on the, like in the notes of our, of our conversation for sure. Okay. They're pretty established now.

They were on tour with Beyonce and stuff. They were amazing. It's amazing.

Yeah. It's I'm more, I come from a singing background more than a dance, a physical background. So I come, I come from the easy stuff.

I can sit there and sing versus having to actually sweat and do motion things like that. So you graduate uni, you dance for seven, you said seven years professionally. I trained professionally for about seven and a half years.

(8:39 - 9:56)

And then did you go right into film after that? Or did it go into actual dancing on and performing on stage before the film part came in? Um, it was kind of a natural transition really. Um, I kind of always films, but then it, the, the paths kind of switched as I got older. Yeah.

I think that's what happens. Okay. So what kind of things have you done prior to, to the, to the Michael Jackson piece? So I've worked with a, so I have a company take flight.

Yes. I saw that take flight, take flight.com. Uh, is it take flight.com or take that flight? Take flight.film that film, take flight.film. Okay. Thank you.

I just want to share it with everyone so they can. Yeah, no problem. Um, so what, so what I do is that company kind of makes social media content for companies.

It's totally unrelated to the documentary, but it's just how the business runs. Right. Absolutely.

For sure. And then the documentary side is another aspect of that, but if it's all the funding, actually all the funding that I'm getting, I need profit to go straight into the film. So that's what I'm doing with that.

(9:57 - 10:03)

I hear you're very close. To the end. To, to the funding portion of it.

(10:04 - 10:34)

Um, no, no, I've done about half. I've done about half to go. So, okay.

Half. Yeah. Well, everybody out there, you know, do you have a GoFundMe or anything? I do have a GoFundMe.

Yeah. You want to, if you'd like to feel free to share it now and then we'll, we'll also post it on the notes as well. Okay.

Should I send it online? Yeah. Is it, uh, is it, can we look at under your name or is it under the title somewhere in GoFundMe? It should be under the title. Let me just double check it.

(10:34 - 10:55)

Yeah, absolutely. So, so very interesting. So you then got into right into film and then is this your first documentary then of, of all the things you've done or did document, is documented brand new to you now? Um, so I would say it's still kind of new, but I have done a few in the past, nothing of this caliber that I'm trying.

(10:56 - 11:23)

I saw, were you doing some editing for, did I see CNN or some other news organizations? Yeah, that's right. So when I graduated here, I actually, I studied film at UCLA and when I graduated, I worked with a production company in North Hollywood and we worked on a bunch of CNN documentaries and that's actually was my education in documentary. I don't know how my work, I was there to do a certain job, but I was just studying everything.

(11:23 - 11:43)

I was looking at how they noted things and actually I'm putting all that into effect now because I've got this room is covered in notes. Right. I know exactly what you mean.

So, so you went to UCLA film school. So you spent how many years in the United States? I've been here since 2016. Okay.

And you're currently in the United States. I am. Yeah.

I'm back. Excellent. Okay.

(11:44 - 12:07)

Welcome. Excellent. Are you looking to possibly get dual citizenship, anything like that? Or you look, are you a UK citizen through and through? I'm a UK citizen, but I don't know, really.

I'm just here to make the film. Um, I've not really thought about that. As long as I'm here to make the film, I just want to make the film and get my interviews done.

(12:08 - 12:16)

All right. Well, do you mind if we get a little bit into the film in a general sense, like a 50,000 foot sense? I don't want to spoil anything for anybody. No problem.

(12:19 - 16:15)

What about the subject matter? Obviously we understand you became a Michael Jackson fan in general, but a documentary takes a lot of effort and a lot of focus about a specific topic. In this case, I would guess the topic is justice in some way, right. Or some, there's a defamation of Michael Jackson.

And there's some kind of overlying or underlying justice issue here. Is that correct? That's correct. But I feel that the film, because it's grown in scope since I started it.

And I knew that would happen. Of course, a bigger issue than justice is as big as justice is. It's more about how you treat one another.

So it's more of a social analysis of Western cultures. The way the West absorbs certain moments in pop culture and what that kind of says about us, that's what the film is about. Very interesting.

It's deeper. I'm sorry, go ahead, please, please. So Michael Jackson is more just the overlay for this underlying.

He's the thread that tells the story. So he's the person where we look through his lens at certain aspects. And I mean, I'm answering questions in this document.

You know, I'm giving people facts. That's absolutely not what I want to do. I want to make something that's real and that's people.

Right. And I want everybody to watch it. Absolutely.

So for example, Danny's is a little bit more in the factual based documentary. This is going to hit a little bit more emotionally. Or more in a soulful way than a than a logic way.

Hopefully. And I mean, with the facts, I do have to share the facts. I'm just absolutely.

Yeah. People don't really want to be forced. You don't want to watch a documentary with just enough.

Right. Right. Well, I don't know if you know my background, but I actually was I actually watched Leaving Neverland and it affected me very poorly.

And yeah, I did. Like I said, I did a podcast with Hajj and basically the beginning of it tells I share exactly what happened to me. But then I spoke with Jess Garcia, who unfortunately passed away.

R.I.P. Jess, Mr. But she showed me, you know, the other documentary was at Square One and all that. And we spoke a lot. And through that, she compelled me to change my mind.

So, you know, we are capable of these things. And I just want to be clear about where I come from, because I was not I'm not speaking with you about also Michael Jackson. I mean, Michael Jackson's huge.

And the family, the MJ fam that is on Twitter is unbelievable. I mean, if he were alive today, it would rival Taylor Swift very easily without any problem. You know what I mean? Posthumously, posthumously, he's doing he's so influential still, you know, but I it wasn't my things on Michael Jackson thing, you know, it really was about the way we were told a story, a narrative in the news and how untrue that was and how that for me plays into everything from military to oil to even, you know, green energy stuff that we're being told falsehoods or being manipulated in some way or another when we clearly have facts here and they take them and they twist them.

Yeah, absolutely. So share me a little bit about your philosophy, about how how the West treats people and how we could be better. Something maybe not in the film that you're sharing, but something that, you know, your introspection, how you've come to this realization.

(16:15 - 18:18)

I think so. I'm born and raised in Britain, Mr. And my parents from India. And I think having both cultures.

When I'm born and raised in Britain, I'd say I am British, but we have a little extra culture there. So it gives you more of a top down view on certain things in society. For sure.

I think the West, free speech is amazing. And I think it's so important. But I think the way the media, you can't really police the media, because I think it goes against free speech kind of.

But because there's profit to be made, there's certain aspects of society which are going to be pushed forward in the news. And that's just naturally just how things are going to work. People want to make more money, they want to get the views, they want to get those clicks.

So it's kind of an animal within itself. I mean, I think I feel like it's our job to police the media, the public. Oh, absolutely.

Yeah, well, we it is our job. We should not support them in any way, shape or form. Yeah, that's right.

And actually, since the internet, the power of the legacy media has changed because people don't get the information on Instagram and Twitter, you know, TikTok. And I don't even call it mainstream. I don't even call it I call corporate media.

I mean, it's clearly bound to big pharma, big oil, you name it, you name the industry, and God forbid, they speak poorly against it. Right. I mean, let's be honest, in my opinion, if you would think that big film with if you think about Harvey Weinstein, for example, and how that was used to cover up, Michael Jackson is used to cover up his indiscretions back in the 90s.

The early night was 93 was a specific example with AJ Benz. I think it's crazy that that that was to protect big film, because film puts advertisement out on those news news stations. So going into that, did you happen to see? Let's get into free speech, because it is a big thing.

(18:18 - 18:44)

I'm an American. I'm also a first generation American. So I my parents both came from Germany and they met here.

So my grandparents were both Nazis. My one grandfather then became a communist because he became part of East Germany, for some reason, obviously wasn't a choice. And then they escaped East Germany in 1953, and came to East Germany, West Germany, and then came to America.

(18:45 - 20:34)

My father was in Hamburg. And he had four, four siblings, and one of them died from the war from malnutrition. He walked with his mother hand in hand 120 miles from Hamburg to Berlin to avoid bombs.

I mean, they had a crazy, crazy rough childhood. So I saw what fascism and what communism brought to my personal family. And I was born in America.

So you can only understand my natural knee jerk reaction to tyranny, right? Just a general natural reaction to no authority. I have a I have a little bit of a disagreeableness with authority. And that's where speech comes in, right? So this this thing came up with Jimmy Carr, where they played a clip of some other show where the person actually said the word, I'm not going to say the word, it's not worth it.

But clearly made a derogatory comment about Michael Jackson. Jimmy Carr said, well, isn't he? Okay, that one certainly is defamatory. But his other part was a joke.

I understand from a personal perspective, it's not funny because of the emotional attachment. But if we restricted that in any way, what happens when the people in power restrict your voice to show the truth, right? That's and that's the sticky wicket, right? I just want to share my side of it because I am on the side I is my opinion that Michael Jackson is not is innocent, if not not guilty, for sure. Okay, that's not this issue.

The issue is, what happens if it's your speech, that's the one that's actually the truth that gets held down. And we saw this through the vaccines. And we saw it through a lot of different things in these last couple of years.

(20:34 - 21:08)

So I'm going to shut up because I talked too much. But I'd love for you to give your perspective from your parents in India, coming to the UK, you being born in the UK, and then coming here, and you must have all a beautiful round feel of that of the speech issue. Yeah, I feel like nobody really mentions free speech in England.

It's really here. And I think the way America is, people really appreciate their freedom, because the history of America is so convinced of so many things. I've been on this for a long time.

(21:11 - 23:32)

It just gives you a top down view of certain aspects, because the way the media is consumed over in Asia is different. And nobody really mentions allegations or anything when you talk about Michael in black culture over in the East. And I mean, with comedians, of course, they should be able to say anything.

But I think there's a, there's an underbelly that ignoring a certain issue, certain demographics in society, that's not really fair. And it's actually partly, actually not partly, hugely why I'm making the film, because I feel like people, it's almost like people live in different dimensions, and they just don't get it. But I can give you a quick example, actually.

And I hate to really mention Elvis Presley, because I do like Elvis, but it's like, with nothing wrong with there's nothing wrong. Hey, look, every we're all human. We all have positive and negative about ourselves.

So there's no way. Yeah. It's just an aspect that kind of puts it more into perspective.

So with them, so what about Elvis? Yeah. So with the Michael biopic coming out, you got certain media outlets raising issues, and I'm sure it's because they know that the fans are going to click on it and share it. But with the Elvis biopic, there's a moment where he's in Germany, and Priscilla is in his room, and they kiss.

But she was underage at that time. But that's okay, and everybody can breeze past that. But somebody who's acquitted on every count, there's not that same understanding.

And I understand you can joke about it, but saying it with such conviction, I think is wrong, actually. Yeah, that's an excellent point. I mean, it's certainly, it is certainly the media's responsibility to be ethical about the speech.

Yeah, almost to the point and, and only because I come from comedy. If I still believe that Michael Jackson stories, I might make that joke still. So but it's only because someone was able to tell me and show me another wet, right, another truth for me to compel me to change my mind, right? So to your point, I agree 100%.

(23:32 - 25:06)

The conviction part is a little is very hard to swallow. But I'd like to reach out to Jimmy Carr and say, Hey, this is probably not want to joke about let's let's talk about it versus I mean, and it's fine if you want to make a joke. But that's on you.

And obviously, what I love is look at all the beautiful speeches come out in support of Michael Jackson from this incident. So it's like, once again, the positives, still, to me are outweighing the negatives, because I was compelled to change my mind with speech, you know, but you do raise some excellent points about that. But I give you an example.

I understand in comedy, it's a little different in England as well with there are two guys, Chris, they were on Joe Rogan, and they spoke about kind of comedy about you're not you can hold up a card where you don't want to be offended. So you there are certain things that are very not, or that are banned or, or taboo or Oh, you mean in England? In England, that's what I've heard. Now.

I may be wrong. And maybe you don't have that experience. So experience.

And I'm gonna be honest, British comedy is my favorite. dry wit. It's just an absolute thing.

So. All right. So is there anything you'd like to tie in regarding the speech once again, with how, how we're treating each other, right? It's not always what's said, right? It's how it's said.

My, go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say Matt, my Angelou said, people are gonna forget what they what you did for them, but they'll remember how you made them feel. Yeah, absolutely.

(25:07 - 26:50)

Yeah. So yeah, if you'd like to expound a little bit, just put a bow on that. And then we can, I've got one other question for you for me.

And then I'd love for you to share whatever else you'd like to share. Yeah. So it's quite interesting with this film, when I started it, it kind of, I knew it was going to grow as I mentioned.

So with free speech, and just pop culture in general, I feel like the same. So I need to be careful with what I say, because I don't really want to raise too much information about the film. I want people to watch it.

Absolutely. So yeah, absolutely. I don't want to spoil anything.

But you know, like I said, just a general, like, you know, feel of it. Yeah. So it's an analysis of pop culture, really.

And what did you ask me? Oh, I just asking how, when we talk about the free speech part, and how the Western culture has obviously defamed Michael Jackson specifically, and it seems almost like a campaign, right? Yeah. See, I'm very anti-conspiratorial in my mind. And a campaign, I don't really, I mean, maybe it is.

It's possible. I mean, the evidence is there, kind of. Well, if I may restate that as well.

Let's say that it got a lot of clicks. So people followed suit. Yeah.

How about that? That might be maybe a follow the leader kind of thing. Yeah. And actually, it goes to my point with the media functions on profit, sort of like the dollar symbol.

Yeah, that is what drives it. If people can get the attention, and Michael Jackson always gets the attention, which is incredible, really. I mean, it's unbelievable.

(26:50 - 27:03)

Over 10 years. Yeah. Did you have a chance to speak with Charles Thompson at all? Just, well, we're friends.

So I did meet him just generally. Oh, okay. Excellent.

(27:03 - 27:29)

England. I haven't had a chance to meet him. He does some great work with actual real pedophilia and real criminals.

The exposes he's uncovered. And I mean, that just speaks to the credibility of this case, right? You have a gentleman who's basically been doing journalism on this for his entire life, and he looks at this and goes, I don't see that. It's interesting.

(27:30 - 27:43)

Yeah. Yeah. And actually, the Michael Jackson community on Twitter, I don't think they get the credit, because a large amount of them are kind of older, and the similar amount have families.

(27:43 - 28:54)

I'd say a large majority are family, kids. But they're not just going to say somebody's innocent because, hey, we like the music. They're going to research.

They're going to find things out. So it's almost like I'm making the film. I started off as a dancer inspired by Michael Jackson.

But who else would make this film? You'd have to have that interest in doing it to make it, but as a film is not going to exist. I mean, if I can ask you a question, have you ever seen a documentary on Michael Jackson that was either neutral or positive post 1985? Well, the only one was square one mainstream on TV. Oh, no, I've never seen anything.

No, the only well, I guess the Oprah Winfrey, the first interview in 93 would have been, but that launched her, right? And then she capitalized on the back end of that. So with the conversation and leaving Neverland. So, you know, she got it on both ends.

She got elevated twice for both sides of it. Very interesting way to look at that. The most viewed interview in history.

(28:56 - 29:46)

It is the most viewed interview in history. That's absolutely right. So it's shown that we have about 10 minutes left or so.

I think something popped up here because I don't have like special zoom, but could I ask you a quick question about India? Do you have any, are you into any of the politics in India with what's going on there? Okay. I'll let, I'll, I won't put you on. I won't put you on the spot then.

So please feel free to continue sharing anything that you'd love to share about just your general, you know, what, do you have any projects upcoming or anything like that? No, the only project is this film. I was on England for three months, visiting family and working. And basically it's just this film.

My whole, it's 24 seven. I just want to get this film done and tested and finished and complete. I've been working on it for two years.

(29:47 - 31:31)

Wow. Over two years now. That's crazy.

Well, I wish, no, please, please. The film's just expanded and grown so much. Like, like I said, it's about pop culture.

It's about the media. It's about Michael Jackson, of course, but it's just everything that pop culture entails and how we kind of perceive each other and the differences between the West and the East in some aspects. Yeah, for sure.

Now, have you, are you familiar when you say West versus East is East Hinduism, Buddhism, or is it more, are we talking China? Cause Middle East is, is obviously different with, with Islam, right? Versus Hindu Buddha. So which, when you speak of East and West, which regions are you speaking of? You just, if you don't mind me asking. No problem.

I'm talking about Asia. So the way you use functions over there, the media. Okay.

Now is how, how would you say it's different? Yeah, I would say it's not so tabloids heavy. Is it a lot more fact-based? I would say, I wouldn't say a lot more because I actually, to your point with India, I'm actually interested in to know what your question would have been. Well, Modi, Modi's kind of scaring me a little bit.

I mean, we've got the largest democracy in the, in the world with over a billion people and it's becoming a religious cult and very, very militant in some way. And I've never thought of Buddhist Buddhism or Hinduism as, as militant Hinduism for sure. Right.

So it's a very interesting thing. And the fourth largest, or what the fourth richest man in the world just got busted. He has direct ties with Modi.

(31:32 - 31:42)

BBC just got, the BBC offices just got raided by Modi. The tax, the tax offices, cause they did a documentary on Modi that paints him in a poor light. So he's been after them.

(31:42 - 38:16)

He's been after Twitter. He's been after, he's sending his tax people into, into all the, the media outlets. I did not know this.

Yeah. He's, he banned this movie in India, the one from the BBC that makes him, that paints him in a poor light. So one seventh of the world is unable to watch this movie.

I mean, just like that. So, right. And it's turning a little scary because he could shift very easily to China and Russia because they need energy to Russia needs someplace to buy someone to buy it.

Now it's a very easy triad, especially with the number of people, the size, the ability businesses, corporations, Apple's looking to move up to 25% of their piece of their business, of their manufacturing to India now, because they're leaving China because China looks bad, but India is not being better. They're not being better. The, the leadership is being very tyrannical in a sense.

So I see, you know, I do have some friends that are into politics and they've told me certain things like this, but a lot of the details that you shared that I don't, I'm happy to share with you offline, but if you could connect with your friends, I'd love to speak with them as well, because there's someone in India from India, that's in the UK that I speak with. She's at Jaya talk show. I think she was connected in one of my tweets or something, but I'll, I'll send her your information and she's a very interesting person as well.

So, but yeah, like I said, I'm, I'm so grateful for you, for you doing this and showing some of these things, once again, taking a step back, it's kind of with the speech, right? There's a, there's a responsibility to it as well. You know, you don't just walk up to people like fuck off, you know, you just, it's not, that's not decor. I mean, there's a courtesy involved, but you know, there's some gray there.

And if we, if we start trimming the edges, I think more gets trimmed and it gets to the point where unfortunately it could get dangerous where the real voices don't get heard at all because they can't. Yeah, that's right. And actually I think the free, that point that you made on free speech, I think it's so important to hear the rights that we have to put up with the bad.

I think the right is so valuable that we have to make way for all of the BS. Yeah. To have that, the right coming.

And I think that's, that's the problem is free speech. But I think it's the only way really. Yeah.

Well, if you know anybody in the entertainment industry and get us with Jimmy Carr, I'd love to sit there and talk with them and say, Hey, look, man, let's, let's look at this. Let's look at this from a real realistic perspective. There's plenty of bad things, you know? So I love that.

Well, it's interesting because there's a gentleman named Michael Malice, who's a comedian. And I think I liked something he had said. And I retweeted it and someone reached out to me from the Michael Jackson community and said, I don't know if you know this, but he's made jokes about Michael Jackson.

I said, I appreciate that. I really do. However, I didn't like his Michael Jackson joke.

And I, you know, he, he, it's our job to compel him to change his mind. So he doesn't do it. That's how I, that's how I see speech, right? Is to use the speech in a positive manner to help people see different angles that they weren't shown or couldn't see before.

That's right. Yeah. Just to open a door.

And with that, like I said, it doesn't change the fact that it's been used very poorly against Michael Jackson. Both things are true here. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, Michael Jackson was a punchline of the nineties and I do feel like for comedians making jokes about Michael Jackson, 2023 kind of goes to show the caliber of it. It is a little bit, I'm not going to defend the comedian. I'm not going to defend what he said.

He was asked on that show for this obvious point. Mm-hmm. So in my opinion, I actually blamed the journalists, quote unquote, journalists that even brought them on there.

You're asking Jimmy Carr, the offensive British comedian to make an offensive joke about someone who you think or whatever, who you paint in an offensive way. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's unconscionable from that perspective, not from he's going to make the joke because it's there. I mean, what do you want? And I'm not, once again, please, I want to be clear.

I'm not defending what he said. Not at all. Yeah.

You know what? That's very interesting. Actually. They obviously knew exactly what they were doing, what they were saying, what was going to happen.

So just making fun and just not really understanding the issue as it should be. I'm getting the comedian. That's obviously going to say something.

I mean, and the clips all over the, all over the Twitter, all over the because yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, we've got a minute left.

We could, we could restart a conversation or we can end it here if you like. Are there any other words or did you want to continue the conversation? That's totally up to yourself. With the film, I can't really show too much really, because I'm at a stage where I'm trying to, I'm working on the funding sides and I'm editing certain aspects of it.

Right. All right. Well, well, thank you again.

Once again, it's called trial by media, correct? Yeah. Trial by media, the Michael Jackson story. And it was, I think the GoFundMe was the MJ story, something like that.

I think it was the MJ story. So the, the hashtag for the film is trial by media, MJ. Excellent.

Jim, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. I'm going to try to get this up as quickly as I can before the weekend even.

So let me try to get this cranked down and hopefully we can talk in the future. Yeah, absolutely. I'd like to know more about you, actually.

Oh, well, I don't know about that. There's not much to know, but let's have that conversation in the future. Okay.

Jim. Okay. Thank you.

Thanks for having me on. Thank you. Take care.

Have a great day. Enjoy the weekend.