Transcript of my conversation with Howard Bloom 3/24/2023

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Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Knocked Conscious. Today I had a great conversation with Howard Bloom. You all know him from the previous conversations I've had with him.

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Today is February 24th, 2023. We spoke a lot about Ukraine and Jordan Peterson, which is a unique combination, but that was a lot of our conversation. I put it together and I've decided to end the shows now with a three-part recording.

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It's the first thing I ever recorded at my podcast studio at my previous place that I never actually released. It is a song that everyone probably knows, but I think it's public domain, so I am allowed to put it out there, so I will. I hope you enjoy it and I hope you enjoy this conversation with Howard.

Enjoy it. Take care. In other words, Vladimir Putin has the official blessing right now of the Chinese government, and especially the Chinese government is one man, Xi Jinping.

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Right. And he has Xi Jinping's blessing in this war of his. Yeah, and what we're finding too, and they're talking about the weapons of, the weapons obviously of death or whatever you want to call it, destructive weapons.

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It's the microchips. It's microchips. It's a hell of a lot more.

Remember, both China and Russia. I mean, microchips, they were taking them out of appliances, I heard, in Russia. Amazing.

Well, you know, both China and Russia have developed hypersonic missiles. Yes. This is something we do not have.

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Right. We're testing them now. Howard, did you want to turn your video on by any chance or? Oh, is my video off? Oh my God.

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It doesn't show it, but- I had no idea that my video was off. There you go. Welcome.

Welcome officially, and let's keep going. Okay. So the problem is, you know, in my first book, The Lucifer Principle, it talks about the fact that a Swedish researcher named Sheldra Beb, from the time he was about five years old, started observing the chickens in the backyard of his parents' vacation home.

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And he noticed something over the years. He eventually turned this into his thesis for graduate school. He noticed that one chicken got to go first in the trough whenever there was food.

And that one chicken got the privilege of pecking every other chicken in the yard. When that chicken was finished eating, chicken number two stepped up to the trough and ate. Chicken number two had the privilege of pecking everyone in the yard except chicken number one.

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Right. It's basically a game of asshole. Yes.

He called it a dominance hierarchy. Yes, absolutely. And he also called it a pecking order.

And woe be unto you if you were the last chicken to the trough, because then everybody can peck you. Everybody. And you generally are featherless, a runt, alone.

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Well, this principle of dominance hierarchies isn't just exclusive to chickens. It's actually prevalent even throughout. We even talk about lobsters.

If you talk about Jordan Peterson and the hierarchy. Yes, I wonder if he got his lobsters. I suspect he got his lobsters for me.

Jordan and I know each other. Do you? Yes. Let's talk about that after.

I'd love to hear some stories, but let's go through this because I'm very interested in hearing your thoughts on. Well, think about this for a second. Lobsters have dominance hierarchies.

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Yes. Two lobsters go up against each other in a showdown. And the purpose of the showdown is to show who can rise the highest toward the skies.

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That's correct. Who can define nature's most basic law. The best.

That law is gravity. And the lobster who wins is flush with a new set of hormones. Yeah.

Those are the hormones of victory. That's correct. They make him walk with an arrogant strut.

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And at night when all the lobsters are going to sleep in their little caves, he goes knocking on the doors of all of the caves just to have another showdown with these lobsters who've already lost to prove he's still boss. Right. It becomes it becomes a cycle in a way that becomes self-fulfilling to the point where confidence breeds itself and it becomes this larger than life kind of entity.

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Right. And the lobsters who lose get the equivalent of what some researchers have called an entire brain transplant because they, too, have a new set of hormones in their system. And those are the hormones of defeat.

And the hormones of defeat mean that whereas the top guy who won struts around as close to the sky as he can get, those who have the hormones of defeat skulk around. They stay close to the ground. Sounds a little like human nature a little bit, doesn't it? It's like evolution.

Yes, it certainly does. Going through every single facet of humanity and every species, right? Right. So there are two major points here.

One is that, by the way, lizards do this, too. So lobsters, lizards. Chickens and human beings parted from each other on the family tree, on the tree of life, about 550 million years ago.

So that tends to indicate that dominant hierarchies go back 550 million years that we got them from a common ancestor. Which is not surprising, because if you look at the cosmos, the cosmos is set up in dominance hierarchies at the center of every galaxy is a black hole. All the other material in the galaxy rotates around that, plays, pays constant obeisance.

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There's an odd structure, right? Yeah. And then next in line are the suns. And the suns dominate their solar system.

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So the planets are bowing and scraping in a circle. Around the satellites, like the moons that are circling those planets. Exactly.

So this dominance hierarchy structure goes back a long, long way. Seems to work. Seems to kind of work.

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It applies also to social groups. Social groups struggle for a position in a dominance hierarchy. If there are subcultures within a culture, the one who wins, the subculture wins, becomes the eyes and ears of the group.

Speaks for the group. Now, we found some interesting things with apes and gorillas, where not always the most physically dominant, but the one that can arrange the best packs or arrange the best strategy with others. Yeah, it takes diplomatic or it takes almost a political kind of a politician mind.

It takes political skill to make it to number one and stay there in the chimpanzee world. The rules go like this in the chimpanzee world, but let's not forget Russia and the Ukraine here. But it's not the the rules go like this.

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Suppose you are big and strong and you gather together a group of bullies like yourself, and then you go out to dominate the group, to topple the alpha male and become the alpha male. The minute you become the alpha male, the rules change. You don't just owe your loyalty to your fellow bullies anymore.

Your job is that if a bottom, it's not a chicken in this case, if a bottom chimpanzee on the pecking order is being beaten up, you are now the manifestation of justice. You have to stop siding with the bullies and start siding with the poor and the downtrodden. And if you don't master that very, very fast, if you still stick with your bullies, the women in the group will basically vote you out of power.

That's right. You'll you'll last two or three days. Well, we what what we still have yet to understand, which we have to understand is the female of the species has has the mating power, has the power, the choice.

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And it's true. I mean, well, I I call it and this is a crude phrase, so excuse me, but the power of pussy work in every marital relationship. You know, you you wrote about Prince, right? There was a song called P control.

Right. And he had Prince wrote a song called P control and it was the same thing. You know, now the point of all of this dominance hierarchy material is back to Ukraine, right? Is is that right now there's one more thing you have to understand about dominance hierarchies.

There is peace in the barnyard as long as there is a well-established dominance hierarchy. But if you throw in a new chicken. And that new chicken tries to establish her place in the dominance hierarchy, the whole barnyard is going to break out in chaos because everybody's fighting now for a position on the dominance hierarchy hierarchy, and nobody wants to be below the new chicken.

Right. And until they settle where the new chicken is on the dominance hierarchy, it's going to be World War three in the barnyard. And right now we're in a position in in human societies when a social group, a nation, for example, or an empire becomes strong, but its strength is not yet recognized in the formal hierarchy, it will struggle for position like that new chicken in the barnyard struggling for position.

China is not the same China was in 1980 when Deng Xiaoping said, let them get rich. China is now the number two economy in the world. Now, predictions had been that China would overtake the United States as the world's largest economy sometime around 2030.

Those predictions have gone out the window because Xi Jinping has crippled the market system. That's correct. And their real estate is reeling from a few years ago when they had some of those real estate collapses.

And it's not just the real estate. No, no. But it was that remember that snowball effect.

They had like a real estate collapse and then that underfunded all the other technologies and all the other pieces. But there's something else major. A country only goes as far as its visionaries can take it.

And there are very few visionaries in a generation. So you have to cherish them. In the United States, the visionary who is giving us the world's leading space program is not NASA.

It's Elon Musk. During the COVID lockdown, the visionary who made it possible for us to order stuff and have it in our house in 24 hours without having to go to a store, Jeff Bezos. It was.

And you have to basically honor your visionaries. Well, Jack Ma was the Elon Musk. Yes.

And he was locked up for how long? What's that? How long was he locked up for? He's not locked up. He's nobody. He was locked up for a few months for some reeducation.

Didn't he disappear for a little bit and then come back? He disappeared. He's been forced to disappear. He's been forced to resign from his position as he was the richest in the country or some ridiculous.

Not sure. But he is you know, he was a superstar. Right.

And in and and there's a remarkable parallel between Deng Xiaoping and a man who admires him tremendously, Donald Trump, like Donald Trump, Deng Xiaoping thinks that he is the solitary genius and the only one who can fix it. And like Donald Trump, he wants all the spotlight of attention on just one person himself. So he cannot tolerate having other superstars in China.

So Jack Ma has been made anonymous. When you take a creator, a visionary like a Jack Ma, if we did that to Elon Musk, we would no longer have the world's leading space program. We'd be back to NASA's space program, which is a repeat of the 1969.

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That's all it is. I know. Yeah.

Space program. They haven't really updated that much. We are leading.

Well, taking Jack Ma out was like taking Elon Musk out. Also, um, you know that Xi Jinping has ruled the country in part through a nonstop anti-corruption campaign. And not only is he has he been cracking down on corruption, which is a positive thing because it was running rife in the country, but he's been using the anti-corruption campaign to sideline anyone who is a critic or a potential rival to Xi Jinping.

And he's particularly doing this in the tech sector. And he's been passing new laws like crazy that have set the sets, the sector. So China was predicted to become the world's largest economy by 2030, but the growth rate has slowed down dramatically.

And nobody knows what the consequences are going to be of Xi Jinping beheading all of the private industry in the country. I don't have insider information, but I am a very well aware of the theocracy that's in India, which was once the greatest democracy, the largest world democracy. Well, it's not only the world's largest democracy, but right now it is the fastest growing country in the world.

Right. And and what's happening is a lot of companies are shifting their their monies from China investment into India now thinking they can get in low and ahead of the curve. This is creating a new tyranny in India, which is another billion people who could get on the side of Russia and China with energy needs.

I mean, this is very concerning. If another billion people shift to, you know, to that side. Well, the the prime minister of India is very eagerly.

First of all, his major source of weapons has been Russia and oil and his energy. He is eagerly sucking up Russian energy at discounted prices. Not only that, he was buying from Russia and selling to the United States through brokers at the elevated price when they were buying it discounted from Russia.

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Amazing. It's unbelievable. So India, we we call India a friend, but India is equally a friend to Russia.

Correct. Well, they are very much in a tipping point with Modi and what happened with the BBC and him using the tax people to sweep through Twitter, sweep through the BBC and make that documentary banned. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that.

No. What was the documentary? So there's a there's a BBC documentary that links him to this massacre, some some really bad thing that happened in India, and he banned it from India to be watched. And he also has those ties to Adani, who's the fourth largest person in the in the world or was.

Yeah, it was. I mean, who's collapsing? All of Adani has been spectacular. Yeah.

And they are connected in exert. They're inexorably connected. It's pretty exorbitantly right.

Yeah. And exorbitantly. Exactly.

Yeah. So Ukraine, let's do it, my friend. Point me through the hierarchy here.

So they're trying to pack. They're trying to fight for position. Is that what you're saying? China is trying to fight for position.

Russia is trying to fight for position. The great humiliation, both China and Russia have one thing in common. They both have great humiliations, huge complaints, huge ways of looking at themselves as victims.

And the great humiliation for China were the wars, the colonialist wars of the nineteen hundreds or the eighteen hundreds when China was humbled. China, which regarded itself as the greatest empire in the world and the source of everything of value that humanity had ever wanted, was suddenly humbled, brought to its knees in the what what China calls today the great humiliation. And China is determined to rise from that great humiliation and to be the great humiliator of the future.

Although I ask you a question about Trump very quickly. Yeah, because this is what gets me. And it's I want to be clear, I am not a Trump supporter by any means in a way that I am on that person's side.

And he that guy is obviously a megalomaniac. I mean, we're not kidding ourselves, OK? That said, in this in this world and with our ability of checks and balances, if we use them properly, for example, taking away the president, declaring war and maybe getting it back to Congress. Right.

Perhaps if we had that check and balance, for example. A person like Donald Trump gives people like Moon and Matt and she all these attention and this megalomaniac attention that they all crave, because that's what that's what it is. Right.

The reason North Korea is launching every missile is because they're like, what about us? Here's where exactly. And Trump went there. And look, it's not it's not to defend any person, but someone sometimes an act can be a pretty darn good act.

Right. It's pretty gutsy. Well, yes, because God knows what to do about North Korea.

It's trying to rise in the dominance hierarchy as well. With Trump and Putin, too, they have that ego that they share that they stroke each other so well, don't they? They write each other constantly. Well, we have a problem with this at this very moment.

That Putin has made it clear Putin and Xi Jinping have both made it clear that their enemy is the kind of democracy that you want, I both love. They call it liberal democracy. Putin has made a list a long time ago of the 12 major attributes of Western democracy, and he's made every single one of those a sin, a devilish scheme, something that the Chinese people must oppose with all their heart and might.

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Putin has done the same thing. He characterizes Western liberal democracy by bringing up the LGBTQ issue, which, of course, is a easy flash button, a hot button, very low hanging fruit. Yes, right.

And he complains that Western civilization has become the most corrupt, decadent civilization in the history of humankind. And there's only one great savior who can come in in a battle of good and evil and who can bring the truth, who can bring goodness, who can bring the Russian Orthodox Church. And that, of course, is Vladimir Putin.

So within his own country, he has the backing of the church, the priest, right, the corrupt priest. Right. And he has characterized this as a holy war, a holy war against the liberal democracy of the West.

Now, meanwhile, we in liberal democracy, what is one of our core inventions? Because liberal democracy is a human invention. The Constitution was a human invention. The Bill of Rights was a human invention.

And the sovereign individual was a very, very, was a bold, unique claim at that point. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And so one of our unique inventions is human rights. But we have become so fat and lazy that we imagine that human rights are an inevitable part of human nature and that they will spring up wherever possible. That is not true.

Human rights are part of a distinctive belief system. The West, they're part of a culture. Right.

And if we truly believe in human rights for the rest of the world, we have to understand that the countries we're fighting, China and Russia, are profoundly against human rights. They see it as corrupt and rotten. First of all, I mean, we have we have Eastern, the Eastern part, you know, in the Eastern world, in China, we have an isolationist country in Russia, we have the Middle East, obviously, is not concerned with democracy as they are in their in their theocratic beliefs.

And it's, that's not a bad thing. That is okay for people to follow their cultural beliefs. But it's not, we can't just smash our democracy into that, you know, that square peg into that round hole the time it hasn't worked, because we're in Afghanistan, Iraq, and let's name it right.

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When we're talking about anti liberal democracy, ideas, Islam is not just what we think of as a religion. We think a religion is something that you put in a shoebox in the back of your closet, and you take out on Saturday or Sunday, right? Then you put holidays and those other special holidays, right? But that's not the Muslim religion. The Muslim religion is a political doctrine.

It contains a set of laws, the equivalent of our Constitution. It there is literal theocracy. Yeah, and it is a theocracy.

Exactly. Muhammad set the example, because he well, he took up he was thrown out of Mecca. And where did he go to a Jewish town called Medina, because they were the most accepting of him.

And then what did he do? He started putting to death the Jews who complained about what they regarded as some of his wickednesses. For example, he decided to support his movement by going out and violently attacking camel caravans for Mecca, the town that thrown him out. Some of the Jews regarded this as terribly unjust.

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And because poetry was a big thing, they wrote poetry about it. He had his men go in the middle of the night when these people were fast asleep, and put a sword literally through their entire body right down to the ground. So Islam, the kind of political system that Islam promotes, is one that totally is intolerant of any kind of criticism of Islam.

Criticism of Islam, it gives you a death sentence. It's considered blasphemy. It's instant death.

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Yeah, it's the criticism of the God or the Prophet Muhammad himself, I would assume. Right, exactly. Yeah, so we have a bunch of systems.

One more thing. The Islamic political military system, and it's all in the Quran and the Hadith, that political military system has a simple goal to take over the entire planet. Why? Because God made you and me from clots of blood.

And God made this planet from a clot of earth. And if God made this planet, surely this planet should be ruled by God's own laws. And God's own laws have been revealed without being tampered with only once.

They were given to over a thousand prophets, and all of them fucked it up. All of them distorted God's word. Only Muhammad was absolutely true to God's word.

So what comes from Muhammad, the Sharia, the holy law that comes from Muhammad. The Sharia law, yeah. Yeah, which says that if you die killing a non-believer, in other words, if you die in a war of conquest on behalf of Islam, you go directly to paradise.

It's an instant ticket for everybody else. It's going to be hard as hell to get into paradise. Not for you, the killer.

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We get within that group, we have, what, three? Is it Shia, Shiite? It's Shiite and Sunni. And those are the two major divisions. Right.

And they're markedly different and responsible for many genocides. Yeah, they're doing it to this very day. I mean, there was a bombing in Kabul that killed something like 100 people.

No, it was in Pakistan. And it was in the city where all of the military commanders live. And it was in a mosque that's attended primarily by people from the government, the military, by high ranking people.

And 100 of them were killed at a time in a bombing. The Muslim community, what the Muslim community does to others in the Muslim community is horrific. Yeah, we all do it to ourselves.

I mean, I've seen a Christian guy shoot up, you know, an abortion doctor. Amazing. You know, in the just name of God, should I not kill? But I guess murder is not killing, right? Or whatever.

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So there really are four contestants vying for the spot as top chicken in the pecking order. Would you argue that Russia is not necessarily vying for top candidate, but they're just trying to vie for survival because they're really struggling? They may be struggling, but they don't see it that way. Certainly, Putin doesn't see it that way.

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And if you want to hear what Vladimir Putin really thinks, look at Dmitry Medvedev, who used to be his prime minister when he was president and president when he was prime minister, he used as a shill in order to be the autocrat. And Medvedev says some really extreme things, but they're totally in tune with Putin's thoughts. Today, Medvedev runs a security council, and he says the goal is to have an empire that goes all the way from the Russian port on the Pacific in the region of China to the Atlantic, to Lisbon in Portugal.

In other words, the goal of Russia is to own the entire Eurasian continent, including all of Europe. About 15 years ago, my collaborator in theoretical physics, Pavel Parakin at the Keldysh Institute of Applied Mathematics of the Russian Academy of Sciences, said, who I regard as a brother, he's very dear to me, Pavel said, look up Eurasianism. So I did.

And Eurasianism is basically the idea that when God created the earth, we're going back to two different creation myths here, one, the Muslim creation myth, the other, the Russian creation myth, when God created, I'm sorry, let's go with the, you mean the convenient creation myth at the time? Is that, is that, well, no, we'll call it the longstanding creation. Right. But you understand, I mean, it's just the one that suits them, them specifically.

So in Eurasianism, when God created the earth, the first people he created were the Russians. And he created them on the Eurasian continent for a reason. He had created them to rule the entire Eurasian continent.

That's a nearly 7,000 mile wide continent. But don't kid yourself about Russia being crowded into a tiny space. Russia is the biggest country in the world.

Russia sprawls across 11 time zones. The United States, which is a very big country, is only three time zones. So that's almost four times as many time zones, as if my arithmetic is correct, as we have.

So they are not running out of room, not at all. Their complaints about claustrophobia that NATO is hemming them in on its west flank can be questioned. They're not such absolutes as they look to be.

But basically, so here we are in a barnyard, and you know what happens when there is any kind of contest about who's going to be number one, who's going to be number two, etc. The whole place breaks out in a fracas. Fortunately, chickens can only peck each other.

That can hurt, that can bring, they can draw blood, that can pull out feathers, but they don't kill each other. We do and we now have nuclear weapons. Yeah, that's where we're at.

So if we get around to pecking each other, with our nuclear weapons, it's all over for modern civilized humanity. So as a quick aside, we have nine minutes on this call, we can re-engage if you're interested. So keep going.

And we can see at that time if you're interested in continuing as I said, okay, so so that's the basic world situation at the moment. It's very dangerous, but it's very primal. So what's your what are your thoughts on what the solution I mean, what, what are you supporting? What do you see the United States intervention, the proxy war, the military industrial complex piece? What, you know, talk to me about those pieces.

Well, I am, we had Donald Trump in office for four years. And his goal was to take apart NATO. Now who benefits the most from taking apart NATO? Vladimir Putin, who he practically worships.

Wasn't he also saying that NATO wasn't paying their fair share as well? I mean, to be a little fair to that? Yes. I mean, he was really thumbing his nose at them because of their leaning on the United States in a way. I look, I'm not defending a guy here.

I'm trying to just look at the entire picture. Right? No, he may have had a point. But I but I don't know.

I have never researched. Right. And he may just use that as his excuse as well.

Who knows, right? We don't have the motivations. 100%. Well, remember, he had a huge number of phone calls with Putin.

And those guys, they love each other. Yeah, exactly. So in 1978, I believe it was.

The Soviet Union was busy trying to cultivate as many young and up and coming influencers as it could find. And one of the people it found was Donald Trump. Trump at that point was married to a model, Ivana.

So the Russians flew him all expenses paid to Moscow. And he has been in love with Russia ever since when he had the Miss Universe pageant. Where did he put it in Moscow? Who did he constantly try to find a way to bring to his Miss Universe pageant? Vladimir Putin.

His biggest real estate plan was Trump Tower. And where would Trump Tower be? It would be in Moscow. And in order to promote the place, what did he try to do? He tried to give something like a quadruplex apartment to Vladimir Putin, which Putin never accepted.

So he, Donald Trump, has been trying to get attention from Vladimir Putin for a long time. Why? Because as president, Donald Trump was the biggest bully in the United States. He'd been a bully all of his life.

Now he was the biggest bully in an entire country. But there's a dominance hierarchy of bullies. And the bully that he saw at the top of the dominance hierarchy was Vladimir Putin.

So he was willing to crawl on his knees to Vladimir Putin in order to be accepted as part of Vladimir Putin's gang of bullies. And you saw that hero worship when you saw the press conference after the Helsinki meeting between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. There's a word for Donald Trump's entire demean, his entire demeanor when they had that press conference.

And it's being, damn it, the word just slipped my mind, but obsequious. He was obsequious to the nth degree. And so it's not surprising that when he came back to the United States, nearly every move he took was informed by all the truths that Vladimir Putin told him over the phone.

And one of them was get rid of NATO, basically, which, of course, only benefits. It doesn't benefit the United States because you're only as big as your gang. You know, a little kid when he's beaten up can run home and get his six brothers who are big to come out.

He's got a lot more power than the single child. I agree. I am also I'm kind of in that camp, though, where it's like, you know, you got to pull your own weight as well, to an extent.

I think I look I'm a first generation American from German parents. My grandfather, both my grandparents were Nazis. One amazing one half was a soldier.

One half was a civil engineer. My grandfather, that was a soldier, became a communist when East Germany came up. They escaped East Germany in 1953.

I I'm I'm blessed to be in America. I am so lucky. Well, I've seen fascism.

I've seen communism. I've seen these crazy things. What what concern? I mean, it's crazy where we're at.

You know what I mean? This is how far do we push in this case? So, I mean, are you for this proxy engagement the way we are? Because NATO to a point was getting pretty complacent with the United States. Personally, the United States, in my opinion, should carry the should carry the biggest, broadest sword, but keep it keep it sheathed as much as possible until absolutely Roosevelt carry a big stick. Yes, I'm sorry.

It's just one of those things where it's the Jordan Peterson. So we can get to that point where Jordan Peterson spoke be dangerous. But being able to control the danger is where you show your power, your strength.

Well, and the guy who's doing that, a lot of people are going to hiss and curse at me for saying this. We have a miracle in the White House right now. I don't agree with everything that he does.

But Joe Biden is an astonishment. He's the most consequential president since Franklin Delano Roosevelt. He has been able to do things that even Roosevelt couldn't do.

Everybody, every president has been talking for God knows how many decades about an infrastructure package of some sort. We desperately need it. We now have the infrastructure of the 20th century when everybody else has the infrastructure of the 22nd century.

And we've got to catch up or lead. And only Joe Biden, despite having a paper thin majority, has been able to pass an infrastructure bill. When we went into the COVID panic, there was a theory of economics that people haven't named.

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There's the old theory, the Laffer curve theory, the trickle down theory, give money to the rich. I'm Reaganomics, I voodoo economics. I'm very familiar.

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Right. But there's another theory that really comes from Keynes. And it's put the money in the pockets of the poor and the middle class because they will be forced to spend it instantly.

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That money will instantly go into circulation and will encourage the growth of new businesses. And that's trickle up economics. Biden used trickle up economics in the COVID support packages that he passed, and it worked.

We could have gone into a huge crash. We didn't. We still haven't, despite the fact that it's being predicted over and over and over again.

It hasn't arrived yet. I have a very, very, I'm very concerned because I feel like debt's exponentially increased with credit card debt, for example. And I feel like it's going to be a snap.

And I'm, I'm very concerned because some of the numbers were lies as well. Like the job creations from last year were a million off. I mean, yeah, I can speak directly to that.

It was the July numbers. They said they did a million jobs and they were actually only did 100,000 or something. And it was, I am concerned about the transparency now.

I'll take no side. I'll take no, I'll take our side. We need transparency.

Can I, can I cut this and can we start, can we start again? Yeah, I'm looking at the clock. Yeah, we should give it another 15 minutes. Let's do, let me end this real quick.

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And then we'll, please do this. I'm going to end this and then we'll jump back on and then we'll just finish till you're ready to leave. How's that sound? Okay.

Terrific. Thank you, Howard. Appreciate it.

All right. So we're on you on the clock for you, sir. Until when you're ready, please, please continue.

Thank you so much for sharing the time. And if we want to talk about Jordan Peterson, this is probably the perfect time. Well, let me tell you about my relationship with Jordan Peterson.

You know, I was sick in a bed for 15 years. Yeah. And for five of those years was two weeks to talk and two weeks to have another person in the room with me.

And it took me three years to create a new life under those limitations. And, um, I'd been online since 1983. I got on the internet in 1983, which I regarded as very late because I had been envying college professors who had access to the internet for years.

And, um, and, and the internet was basically this dark and lonely place. When Peter Gabriel saw that I was on the internet, he felt so lonely in this big, dark, empty space that he came rushing over. Yeah.

To say hello. He's Peter Gabriel fan. So, so, um, so I resurrected myself completely as an online character basically.

Um, and I founded two international scientific groups, one of which made a big difference in, in evolutionary biology. And I wrote three books and around 1970, no, it must've been around 1989, uh, somewhere, or somewhere in the 1990s, I wanted to put together a science of the soul group. Cause you know that what I've been putting together since I was 12 years old is called the grand unified theory of everything in the universe, including the human soul.

And then a filmmaker came and looked at it and said, no, no, no, you have to change the title. It's the grand unified theory of everything in the universe, including sex, violence, and the human soul. The human soul has been in there and it remains a mystery that has to be brought within the view, the lens of science somehow.

We're trying to figure out like consciousness, if it's an emergent property or, or, or a thing, right? Right. Um, and it's more than consciousness. There's something unique about the soul that includes passions, um, that drive you that make your decisions for you every minute of the day, without your being aware of it.

Um, there are many selves inside of you and many selves inside of me. Where's the soul in all of this? Are they all the soul? Is the soul just one of them? Um, who knows? So I tried to put together a science of the soul group for my bed. And one of the people who signed on almost immediately was a professor of psychology from Toronto, Jordan Peterson.

Well, here's this, the probably around 19, um, hang on 1989 or no, no, but no, it must've been more like 1999. So is he like Harvard at this point or at university of Toronto? He was, uh, he was, uh, in Toronto at the university of Toronto. Okay.

And the only thing I knew about him was he had this book called the maps of meaning, which I marked down as something I should read someday. Yeah. I try, I tried listening to that.

(42:02 - 42:37)

And I'm, uh, I love it. I it's beautiful, but it's deep. Yeah.

It's yeah. It's, it's beautiful, but it fits all of the bloomy and theories in the grand unified theory of everything in the universe, including sex, violence, and the human soul fits them perfectly. Interesting how your connection is.

And I will continue, but considering just your general, um, I wouldn't say political ideologies, but your general ideologies are slightly apart, but you probably agree on some very specific things. Very cool. We agree on all of this business about political correctness.

(42:37 - 44:48)

Yeah. Um, and, uh, we agree about, uh, the West caving in and about speech turning to turning a criticism of Islam into a sin Islamophobia when in fact Islam needs as genuine a critique as Christianity has gotten. It needs an honest, everything needs an honest look from many angles.

Right. And Karen Armstrong, I wrote a book, the Muhammad code, how a desert property ISIS Al Qaeda and Boko Haram. Yeah.

And if you want to read false stories about Islam, um, read Karen Armstrong. Why are her stories false? Because there were two stages of Muhammad's career. One was in Mecca and there he preached tolerance.

Why? Because he was hoping to bring other Meccans into his movement. But then he was forced to move to Medina, the Jewish town, and he started making his living by killing people. And so he developed, uh, uh, an ideology of an autocratic, a dictatorial, um, military group.

Um, and so there are two versions of Islam. One is the peaceful Muhammad. The other is the Muhammad of war.

And Karen Armstrong doesn't understand the Muhammad of war or blocks it out of her consciousness. But one way or the other is dishonest about it. So if you want to read about, yeah, if you want to read about the story of Muhammad, the warrior, the man who actually commanded 147 military campaigns, who laid the basis for an empire that was the biggest empire in the history of the world, five times the size of the Roman empire, three times the size of the United States, 11 times the size of the conquest of Alexander the great, then you have to read the Muhammad code.

Yeah. And it's important to understand what's in the Muhammad code because Islam has been relatively quiescent, silent for the last 10 years. Um, but it's been around now for 13 or 1400 years.

(44:49 - 46:17)

And it does have a goal of the violent conquest of the entire planet that's built into the religion. Um, and it's a force that we have to reckon with because we've been in a world war with Islam for 1400 years. And it's, it is unlikely to keep its head down below.

I mean, let's go to replacement theory, which I think it always, it seems to have will always bubble up. It will not have a finite resolution. No, something that's been this successful 1400 years is not at all dead.

So, and it hasn't been turned into what we call a religion, something you can put into a shoe box and put away in the back of the closet until Saturday. It's a culture. It's a life.

It's a, it's an entire, it's entire lifestyle. It's yes, exactly. And that's what it says reaches out to you and signs up for your course.

What's the name of this course? Um, well, it wasn't a course it was, I wanted to put together a group that would further the interests of the science of the soul. Okay. That would establish a science of the soul to begin with.

And so I was profoundly grateful to Jordan, um, for signing on 13 other scientists signed on as well. And all of them were highly credible people. And then I had, so you'd like to share.

I don't remember them. I'd have to, even if I'm not even sure I, I can go back and look, I'm going to try to look this up somehow. There's the internet.

(46:17 - 47:44)

We can try to dig something up. Right? So I had to abandon when I realized that the New York Academy of sciences had just run a major symposium on the science of the soul. Um, so when, when I was promoting one of my books, probably I signed up with Jackson and me, a search for a soul in the power pits of rock and roll note that word again, soul.

Um, I, I enjoyed that. I enjoyed that book readily. Thank you.

Thanks. Well, so I remember Jordan Peterson. I had heard he had a podcast.

I assume that as a podcast of an academic teaching psychology at the university of Toronto, he had 300 followers and I contacted him to, uh, ask if he'd like to have me on the podcast. And it was a joyous reunion because I agree with him about political correctness. I agree with him about a bunch of issues.

Um, and I, at some point I went back and read, um, the map of meaning. And as I said, I think it's just a fucking brilliant book and it fits perfectly into the principles of the grand unified theory of everything in the universe, including sex, violence, and the human soul. So Jordan was about to put out his first book and he had his publisher get hold of me to see if I would read the book and blurb it if I liked it.

(47:46 - 47:57)

And I, so I got a copy of Jordan's first book, an advanced copy. Please tell me you still have that. Yes.

It's sitting here right where I can see it. Oh my goodness. Popped up in a prominent location.

(47:59 - 48:53)

So I admire the man greatly because regardless of whether I agree with him, I completely see how he gets where he gets. He is honest in how he derives a conclusion. Well, we need a Jordan Peterson.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, we're right now. Let's see where Jordan Peterson stands.

There is a struggle between four competitions, four civilizations for position in the pecking order. It's the Western liberal civilization, the Islamic civilization, Russian civilization, which regards itself as a full-blown civilization with its own world. And of course, it's an isolationist type of culture.

Yes. Yeah. It is the Chinese civilization, isolationist, but expansionist, the Russian civilization.

(48:55 - 52:11)

One way or the other, the Western system depends on a balance of three elements. This is all in my book, The Genius of the Beast, A Radical Revision of Capitalism. And which by the way, says the primary mandate of a capitalist is be messianic.

Uplift, empower, and save your neighbors. If you do it with one, you get a dollar, do it with a hundred, you get a hundred dollars, do it with a hundred thousand, you get a hundred thousand dollars. So how does this Western system differ from the other systems? It's a balance between three elements and constant struggle against each other.

And they are the government, which gave us among other things, the highway system in the 1950s and the internet in the 1970s. And private industry, which gave us automobiles, gasoline, all kinds of things that sound unpleasant, but a ton of things that were very pleasant indeed. The telephone, for example, the typewriter, for example, all kinds of things that gave us additional powers, the television set, the radio.

And the third element, there's government, there's private industry, and then there's the protest industry. And the protest industry has been around as long as the industrial revolution. It started in the seventies.

Sabotage, right? And it started with the abolitionist movement, the anti-slavery movement. No other civilization in the history of mankind has produced an anti-slavery movement. Slavery was still legal in Saudi Arabia until 1962.

And it's still going on, for example, in Libya currently with that power vacuum and some places around the globe that are, it's pretty atrocious. Amazing. So, no other civilization in the history of mankind has produced the concept that you alluded to before, individualism.

No other civilization in the history of mankind has produced the idea of saving endangered species. No other civilization has produced the idea of saving the planet. These are all unique aspects of the protest industry in Western civilization.

In Vladimir Putin's Russia, no protest is allowed. A bunch of protesters were just arrested today for the mildest form of protest, for taking flowers to the graves of Russian poets. In China, no protest.

So, I do have a question about that going through the history. My understanding was Afghanistan, the losses in Afghanistan by Russia, where it was the Russian mothers of all the dead soldiers that really turned the culture to against that conflict. Is that correct? Yes, and helped them eventually get rid of the Soviet Union.

(52:12 - 53:46)

And we're looking at how many, I mean, what's your honest number? It's over 100,000 dead here. It has to be, correct? Well, the figures, which are very unsatisfying, are that the Russians have either had 200,000 deaths or men wounded. Right, I think it's got to be in the half a million wounded.

It has to be. Well, in the meantime, the figures for the Ukraine is 100,000 who have been lost or wounded. And this is on the ground type, like, there's a lot of almost hand-to-hand type combat here, and 100,000, I mean, on the side.

That's incredible. And I don't mean incredible in a good way. Vladimir Putin has come up with a way to have new mass conscriptions without making headlines with them.

Correct. Another 300,000 or 350,000? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, how about all the people breaking their arms or trying to get out of Russia and things like that? Well, one of the things that Putin is celebrating is the fact that he has driven the liberals out of Russia. They've been forced to leave the country, which gives them a pure country. Absolutely.

Who agree with him that the most remarkable thing you can do with your life, the thing that gives it meaning, is to die for your country. He's produced a new cult of death in Russia for a good reason. Historically, Russia has won time after time after time because it's been willing to absorb a number of lost lives.

(53:46 - 54:39)

Always. This is a Russian cultural type of war. It's throw everybody at the problem and then double that number the next wave.

Yes, exactly. It's like doubling down on a poker hand or a blackjack. If you lose, you just double down.

This worked against the invasion of Napoleon and around 18, probably around 1805 to 1810. It worked into defense against the Nazis, to be completely honest. Yes, it worked into defense against the Nazis.

Right now, the Russian people are being told that in every era, a great dominator appears who wants to rule the world. Russia has always been the country that has saved the world from these great dominators. The figure that it's really alluding to is Adolf Hitler.

(54:40 - 55:00)

What the Russian people aren't being told is that Adolf Hitler had an alliance with Russia. It's through that alliance that the Soviet Union got half of Poland and got the three Baltic states, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. I believe the Nazis turned on them, correct? Right.

(55:01 - 55:15)

It was through the initial alliance that got them the land. Let's not kid ourselves. After World War II, America was happy to give their portion to Russia to watch it for us and look at East Germany.

(55:15 - 55:28)

We were grateful for Russia's contributions to the world. What's that? That they would manage it for us somehow. Well, but the Russians claim they single-handedly won the war against Hitler.

(55:29 - 56:20)

And let's not kid ourselves. That is a lot, as much truth as it isn't, right? I mean, 30, 20, 30 million dead. It has a great deal of truth.

We could not have won that war without them. We could not have won the war without the Western alliance, without all of Europe. I mean, it's certainly a huge side of the puzzle.

But when Germany went into, was it Stalingrad or Leningrad? Right. Instead of into Moscow, because he wanted to take the name of that city because of his pride. Right.

And they moved all the troops down there and that's where they met him. And it was that was the beginning of the turn for sure. But I mean, what, 30 million Russians dead? Well, the Nazism and Hitler were defeated by an alliance.

(56:20 - 56:25)

For sure. Not defeated by the United States. They were not defeated by the Russians.

(56:25 - 56:43)

They were defeated by an alliance. And alliances count because when you're talking about the pecking order of groups, one thing that's been happening on this planet ever since there have been human beings is that humans have been learning how to agglomerate in larger and larger groups. Right.

(56:44 - 57:30)

And the world was tending toward globalism. Toward global agglomerations. Yeah.

And the alliances in the world are still global agglomerations. We are allied not just in the Eurasia with all of the European nations. We are allied in the Pacific with Japan and South Korea and Australia.

And we know from the experience of World War Two how important those alliances are. Absolutely. And Joe Biden has a great gift to bring to the United States because he is 80 years old.

(57:31 - 58:30)

He remembers a lot of things that other people don't. And he has drawn political lessons from those things that other people haven't. And he has learned how to pull Democrats and Republicans together in ways that no other president in my lifetime that I can remember anyway has done at a particular time when the Republicans and Democrats are at each other's throats.

Ten days ago in I think it's Berlin, there was a huge strategy, international strategy session. It's an annual event. And it's very big.

The country with the biggest delegation was America. And that delegation was totally bipartisan. It included Mitch McConnell.

(58:30 - 59:02)

It included I think his name is Mike McCaul, the head of the Foreign Relations Committee, the Republican head of the Foreign Relations Committee. It included Nancy Pelosi. It included Chuck Schumer.

There were apparently as many Republicans as Democrats. No other president in our lifetime could have pulled that off, despite the odds of these two parties ready to slit each other's throats. So Joe Biden, I mean, for some people, being 80 can be a burden.

(59:03 - 59:33)

For some people, they're going into senescence and they're losing their physical strength. Well, Joe Biden has lost a great deal of physical strength ever since he had his bicycle accident and injured his ankle. He had another fall up the stairs to Air Force One yesterday or the day before.

Amazing. Well, he doesn't walk with the stride of a strong man. To the contrary.

No. What do you expect, though? I mean, come on, the guys. But when he sits down and talks.

(59:34 - 1:00:12)

He is not the senile old duffel bag that the Republicans are trying to portray him as not at all. And when you watch his actions in doing things like pulling together Republicans and Democrats for this major international security conference taking place in Europe, it becomes obvious that he has certain skills that he didn't have when he was 50 years old or when he was 60 years old, that it took him to the to the age of 80 to develop the contacts and the skills. And he has contacts in depth because he's been in politics for so long.

(1:00:13 - 1:01:15)

So Joe Biden doesn't get credit for it, but he's a walking miracle. And he's a gift. Now, I don't agree.

I mean, I think we should have given planes to the Ukrainians the minute they asked for them a year ago. So I just want to be clear, not that I need to put you on the record at all. And please don't I'm not here to put you on the spot in any way.

Right? You you're you're all in on the defense of Ukraine in this case. Yeah, support everything. Okay.

Yes. November and December of 2021. I think it was Vladimir Putin made it very clear what he wants.

He said, it's time to come up with a new European security agreement. I want all of the countries, I think there are eight of them that were part of the Soviet Union. I want them back within the Russian sphere of influence.

And until we and I have red lines, and these are my red lines. He announced what he was after. He's after a third of Europe.

(1:01:15 - 1:01:43)

Right. And that you're going to share any culpability for pushing the those nations into NATO when we had the verbal agreement in 91. Just we're talking provocation.

Look, it's not it's not that he wouldn't be this this monster anyway. But he has a better excuse, right? Yeah, so weird. So yeah, the I have not researched the verbal agreement, but I remember that it was sort of a buzz.

(1:01:44 - 1:02:38)

In the zeitgeist, the United States made it very clear verbally that we will not go anywhere, we're not going to do anything, we were going to be gracious in our victory over the collapse of the Soviet Union. That's at least what I've researched. Look, we're going to see every side of it.

Right. And this is a conversation. So I'm just grateful for it.

So thank you. Well, yes, there is a provocation. If you call prim bring these countries into NATO, a provocation, they had to have a genuine democratic wish to be part of the Western liberal democratic civilization.

That's what they want. And I don't I don't disagree with that either. Once again, right.

We're talking about a very nuanced conversation here that we don't write or have. And they lived under virtual slavery under the Russians. Oh, communism.

(1:02:38 - 1:03:55)

Well, like I said, I I'm very familiar with every side of from fascism to communism. My family's experienced it. So.

Right. So, you know, that, you know, we walk into a supermarket. Khrushchev was astonished when he when he had a super right.

And there are a dozen brands of bread there, each one trying to tempt you. But in Russia, there were lines a block long in front of the bread shop and you had to stand in line for three hours to get a loaf of bread. That's a huge difference.

Which one best reflects to to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities. Right. Long line, the bread line or the bread pantry, the bread shelves in the supermarket.

They spoke of Gorbachev weeping when he saw the full produce produce in the just sitting in the baskets. Right. Available to grab.

Right. So look, I mean, like I said, I'm very familiar with that side of it. My parents, I remember sharing the story of it wasn't that they didn't have something.

They only allowed you to have something. So they say, OK, this season, tires are what we're going to get. We're not going to give cars.

(1:03:56 - 1:04:41)

There's a 13 year wait on cars, but we're going to give you all the tires. So you're backing up, you're piling up, stockpiling your tires so you can barter them later for coffee or food or some sugar possibly. Or it's it was unbelievable, the kind of craziness and even more corruption possibly that goes on in that kind of beautiful sharing of everything.

Right. This mandatory sharing of everything. Well, have you ever seen the movie? Oh, God, what is it called? My girlfriend just showed it to me for the second time this weekend.

It's a Ryan Reynolds movie. And he is a guy in the in the blue shirt. Yeah.

Free guy. Yeah. Free guy.

Yeah. He's a non-player character or whatever, like in a video game like simulation. Howard, we could talk about that, too, you know.

(1:04:41 - 1:05:53)

Well, so he's in this video world that's been created by a piece of software. That software has built been built off another video world that was created earlier and has been stolen. And it turns out that when you tilt your Venetian blinds in a certain way, you don't see the reflection of the city that seems to be spread out around you.

You see the reflection of the city that was created or the landscape that was created in the previous version of the game. Well, when I was a teenager. Yeah.

The big thing was existentialism. So I was busy reading existentialist tracts. And under every single one of them was this kind of vision in the Venetian blinds.

It was this implication of a different form of social organization that would bring paradise. And it took me 20 years. To realize that what I was what was happening was I was being fed Marxism and Marx had been given a chance, Marxism had been given a chance to prove what it could do.

(1:05:53 - 1:07:58)

First in Russia, then in China. And it killed roughly 50 million people in each of those countries, 100 million people total, because it got worse than bread lines. It was starvation to death in China, in the Bolshevik revolution in Russia.

So so without knowing it, these intellectuals who I was being told were the dominant intellectuals of the time and within whose world I was supposed to live. Were unspoken Marxists, and because they didn't speak their Marxism out loud, they couldn't, their ideas could not be compared with what was going on in Russia and China. Where do you? Did you ever cross paths with like a Christopher Hitchens? No, Christopher and I never crossed paths.

He was brilliant. Yeah, it is unfortunate. Because I mean, I believe he was a Marxist, but he he went he vacillated with a lot of things.

I just found him brilliant as well. Just he was again, I don't need to believe in the person to believe in what they you know, I don't believe to believe what they believe in to believe in them, right? Well, brilliant mind is a brilliant mind regardless of the outcome of the of the equation. But Christopher Hitchens was the ultimate insider.

There was a little elite in the intellectual community. He was a part of it. Yeah, he was.

He created a lot of elite is I have never been a part of a clique. No clique ever wants me. When people are hungry to come together over a given cause, they will recruit me as their leader.

But they would never allow me as part of their group. So I was never too disagreeable per Jordan Peterson's words. I don't know.

No, I do not find myself in a clique either. So just to be clear, so we could be the way I look. My my advantage is that I see the slats in the Venetian blinds.

(1:07:59 - 1:10:03)

Yeah, that's what I do, too. Right. I was at a rock concert one day, you know, and I used to have all access passes to the rock concerts because I had I found it as a total.

Thanks. Rub it in, Howard. Rub it in.

Thank you. Yeah, please. Yeah.

You know, I'm a science person. I started a microbiology of theoretical physics at the age of 10. I mapped out a timeline of the history of the cosmos at the age of 12.

I came up with the theory of the beginning, middle and end of the universe that predicted dark energy 38 years in advance when I was 16. So I've spent my life in science and I had nothing to do with popular culture because that was the culture of the kids who used to beat me up. Right.

And then I got a chance to I was looking for the gods inside of us. I was looking for those soaring experiences that Adolf Hitler managed to create with a titular parade where he got people to feel they were being sucked out of themselves into some higher entity that was absolutely was the trance of all trances watching that person just gin up a crowd. It is unbelievable what he could tap into.

So I was looking for the forces of history. I was looking for the gods inside. And I tripped into an opportunity to do field work in the land of the gods inside.

And it was in rock and roll, which I had known nothing about until just a few years earlier. And I founded the biggest PR firm in the music industry and worked with Prince and Michael Jackson and Bob Marley and Bette Midler at ACDC and Aerosmith Kiss Queen. Rob Marley's right there, sir.

There's Marley is here. You've got Billy Joel over there. And yes, Billy Joel was one of mine.

And Travolta is over in the corner there. I never got to work with him, but one way or the other. So I got to do this absolutely phenomenal work in.

What would you call it in mass group emotion? Yeah. And it's a hypnosis. It's it's what a comedian does to a crowd when they're when they're on.

(1:10:04 - 1:10:44)

Right. They walk them through and just guide them through the story time of the life. And so one day I'm at a rock concert.

It's a big auditorium, 18000 people. And I have an all access pass, so I have a tendency to go around and check the room from a lot of different angles. And I decided to go into the first 15 rows where everybody's on their feet.

And the artist, I forget who it was, probably John Mellencamp, is getting everybody to clap together. So I clap, too, because I want to feel the emotions of these people around me. And then I discover something really weird, very much like the Venetian blinds.

(1:10:46 - 1:12:39)

And it's that when everybody else's hands are parted, my hands are clapping when everybody else's hands are clapping. You're 180 off beat. You're out of phase.

Right. And it's just automatic. Right.

I'm lucky that I even realized it or I would have walked away without getting a lesson from this experience. And the lesson was that somehow I seem built to live in the Venetian blind reflection, not in the world that's before our very eyes. I can speak directly to that, sir, with the experiences I've had personally as well.

And I don't know if I'm still trying to figure out if it's a genetic component to it or a true spiritual component or anything. But the things I've experienced in my personal life make no sense because I'm come from science and I'm boggled with the things I've experienced. Well, that's so it sounds like we have a lot of parallels.

So it's seven thirty. We should probably send my work. Yeah.

Thank you so much for your time. I'm so grateful. Well, it's a pleasure, Mark.

It's an absolute pleasure. Next time we'll have to get further into your experience. I'm happy to share them.

I mean, once again, I'm one of these people that will tell you as an observation of what I experienced, it is what I experienced. Right. What the meaning of it is completely up for interpretation.

But I can tell you that what I experienced is real to what I have. And I would never have guessed it should have happened to me in any way. Right.

And my my whole job is meaning. Yes. And I can't believe your connection with Jordan Peterson, because like I said, I just saw him in the midterms the night of midterms in Arizona.

He was here November 8th, I believe it was. And he gave a lecture and he's sitting there giving a lecture. My girlfriend's next to me and I'm mouthing ahead of him, like following ahead where his mind's going.

(1:12:39 - 1:12:46)

That's amazing. He looks at me like he sounds just like you. And I don't I am not Jordan Peterson.

(1:12:46 - 1:14:14)

I am not Jordan Peterson. Well, I have to get back in touch with him. I owe him.

He's been crises and he's an important person in my life. Oh, and my blurb for his book. Yes, it's right smack dab in the middle of the back of the book.

Can you share that again? Where is the boardroom? Which book was was it? Or which book was it? It's 12 rules for life. Okay, 12 rules. Okay.

I know that was a cover of the hardcover edition. Perfect three blurbs. Mine is the dominant one.

It's right smack dab. I'll take a picture of the back of that. And I'll share that on Twitter.

If I have one last weird, weird request, because I saw Jordan Peterson with Stephen Fry on the side of political correctness as a con. And I saw Eric Michael Dyson and Michelle Goldberg or Goldman on the pro side. And it was awful.

And I watching them eviscerate the other side was great. Stephen Fry left Twitter because of Elon Musk. Is there any way we can get him back on? I don't know.

But we have to send me away. Thank you so much. Okay, have a great day.

We'll do it again. You take care. I'll put this out as quickly as possible.

Okay, let me know the URL. Thank you so much. I will take care.

Okay, bye.