Transcript for my conversation with Chloe Valdary 6/10/2024

Speaker 1: Chloe Valdary

Speaker 2: Mark Puls

[Speaker 2] (0:00 - 0:45)

Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Knocked Conscious. Today, I had the pleasure of speaking with Chloe Valdary. She's the founder of Theory of Enchantment.

It was a great conversation. We covered a lot of topics. Here it is.

I hope you enjoy it. Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Knocked Conscious. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Chloe Valdary.

She is the founder of Theory of Enchantment. She is going to be at Freedom Fest, July 10th through the 13th in Las Vegas. I'm going to be there with Media Credentials.

I'm so excited to meet all the people that I've met through this opportunity. Chloe, welcome to Knocked Conscious. Thank you so much for this opportunity.

And tell us a little bit about yourself.

[Speaker 1] (0:46 - 1:52)

Sure, Mark. Thank you. Thank you for having me on your platform.

I really appreciate the opportunity as well. I am Chloe Valdary. I am 30 years old.

I am the founder of an organization called Theory of Enchantment. We do inclusion and belonging work, which means we train companies and their teams to develop the proper skills that are necessary to handle conflict in productive ways, to welcome a rich, diverse set of backgrounds, not only reflected in the staff, but also ideas, intellectually speaking, so that whatever they do at an organization, the products and services that they develop can be done in a healthy manner and in a way that's productive. So that's a little bit about me. We could definitely get into some of the details.

A lot of people associate Theory of Enchantment as an alternative to diversity, equity and inclusion organizations that were, I guess, in greater vogue closer to 2020, 2021. So we can talk about that if you want. But that's a little bit about me and my professional background.

[Speaker 2] (1:53 - 3:03)

Well, thank you so much for sharing that. I would like to actually get into that a little bit, because I guess that's where we come into the woke, anti-woke thing, the DEI thing, the CRT stuff. How does that play into everything?

Because, like I said, I watched a couple of podcasts with you, and it seems to be that you are the, you hear about the anti-racist movement. And so I shared with a lot of people, I'll share with you because it's something we'll talk about, but I'm actually an anti-theist, which is one of those things. Yeah, so it's one of these things where it's, and I'll explain that obviously down the road, but the anti-racism, it's kind of like if you're an anti this, you're an anti that.

You use the forces of those things to counter. You're just a 180 to it. You're not a solution, right?

It doesn't seem to be the solution. It just seems to be the counterforce in a weird way, blowback, right? You seem to approach it from a very unique standpoint.

So I'd love to hear a little bit about it. I did pull up, first of all, I pulled up your logo and it's very interesting because what I've seen over the last handful of years is a closed black fist.

[Speaker 1] (3:04 - 3:06)

Yeah, you notice the difference, huh?

[Speaker 2] (3:06 - 3:14)

And yeah, it's like the second I saw your logo, I see an open, you know, I'm going to show it's basically an open black hand.

[Speaker 1] (3:14 - 3:15)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (3:15 - 3:21)

And automatically I just think of a contrast there. Is that something that was intentional?

[Speaker 1] (3:22 - 4:56)

It actually wasn't intentional. We had our we had our our designer design, our logo's name is Ryan. Shout out to Ryan Patterson, who designed that logo.

And there's actually different colors of the logo. It is an open hand. We have it in red, white and black.

And it did strike me. I did notice when we first came out with it that it was a contrast to the the closed fist, as you pointed that out, which is a symbol of many things. Like it's been associated with the Black Power Movement.

It's been associated with certain historical time periods in our nation's history that I don't begrudge, per se. But it also definitely connotes a certain type of attitude and orientation that is associated with power. Whereas I would think our company and our company's philosophy and message is explicitly associated with love.

And I don't know if you're familiar with the writings of Carl Jung's work. Carl Jung is a 20th century psychiatrist whose philosophy and ideas deeply inspired a theory of enchantment. He actually says that the opposite of love is power, which is interesting.

Again, we didn't we didn't like come up with this on purpose. We didn't intentionally design it in that way. But it is meant to be an open hand to denote the shared human experience that everyone has as a human being.

Right. It's a very like species wide symbol and it's meant to convey that kind of feeling when you see it.

[Speaker 2] (4:57 - 5:11)

And I really like that. So in the contrast to the anti-racism movement, I guess, how would you describe you speak of compassion and love? Would you like to go through the three principles of each and go through the three principles?

[Speaker 1] (5:12 - 6:16)

Sure. Yeah. So there are three principles.

Theory of enchantment. First principle is treat people like human beings, not political abstractions, which basically means don't treat human beings like symbols. Right.

Don't don't treat human beings like symbols of good or symbols of evil. Don't treat human beings like amulets or, you know, you see this a lot happening in current discourses around the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, for example, where some people treat groups of people as symbols of good or symbols of evil. So like that's first rule.

Like, don't do that. Treat people like human beings, not political abstractions. Second rule is criticized to uplift and empower, never to tear down or destroy.

This is all about how to both receive and give feedback in ways that are productive, in ways that are healthy, in ways that show the person that you're giving the feedback to that you care about them. Because if you don't care about them, there's actually no point in giving the feedback. Right.

Like if you don't think if you see a person is committing harmful behavior and you don't think they're actually capable of changing, why are you telling them to change? You don't even think they're capable of changing. So it doesn't make sense.

And then the third principle is.

[Speaker 2] (6:16 - 6:19)

So it's like a constructive criticism basically would be that kind of way.

[Speaker 1] (6:20 - 6:21)

It is a constructive.

[Speaker 2] (6:23 - 6:27)

If you're going to say it that way, the best way that's, you know, in that comparative way, because I'm old school.

[Speaker 1] (6:27 - 6:33)

So, yeah, you do it constructively, right? You do it to build. Is that what you mean by constructive?

[Speaker 2] (6:34 - 7:03)

Absolutely. Yeah. So when I say constructive criticism, it's like this is where I feel like you could tweak and enhance it.

You know, it doesn't have to be to tear down the project as a whole. So, yeah, I'm glad I use that. I'm glad I use that terminology because I probably have some older people, like I said, I've got 20 years on you.

So we'll probably have that Venn diagram crossover. OK, so and the third what's the third principle based on or what's it called? What is it?

And what's it based on?

[Speaker 1] (7:03 - 7:26)

So the third principle says everything you do in love and compassion is deeply inspired by the centralizing of agape or unconditional love in the civil rights movement. And we believe that by practicing the first two principles and their skill sets that come with those two principles, you'll be able to show up in a way that is embodying love and compassion. So those are the three principles.

[Speaker 2] (7:27 - 7:38)

That's beautiful. So you implement these with businesses. And what kind of what kind of, I guess, verticals or disciplines do you implement your practices?

[Speaker 1] (7:38 - 8:37)

So we work with a whole array of different organizations. We've worked with tech companies. We've worked with schools.

We've worked with hospitals. There's actually no common denominator, except it's primarily small to medium sized businesses. But they just both in the for profit or nonprofit space.

We've done everything from run, you know, 90 minute virtual workshops with executive teams in an organization to working with an organization for two plus years, putting all of their managers through a training program where they're actually learning how to practice those skill sets on a daily basis. And it's been fun. It's been a really great time.

I've definitely learned a lot as an entrepreneur and as someone whose business partner, shout out to Peter Stein, brings a really like design systems level thinking to the business. I've learned a lot from working with him and building all of our products and services rooted in that sort of mindset.

[Speaker 2] (8:38 - 8:57)

That's really awesome. So we've talked about a lot of the philosophical stuff. How did you get to this point?

How did you get to enchantment? What are some of the foundations on which you build it personally in your life? And how how did you scale that out to a bit like a business?

I mean, how did you pass your business?

[Speaker 1] (8:58 - 11:30)

So I in terms of my personal motivation, I first started out as I majored in international studies. So I studied international relations, basically a university with a concentration in conflict and diplomacy. And I studied the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

So I actually wanted to originally develop a paradigm that would be responsive to that conflict in a way that was healing, in a way that was loving, in a way that was compassionate. The reason I was particularly drawn to that conflict, as opposed to any other conflict, is because I grew up as a Christian observing Jewish holidays. So my sense of meaning, time and space and culture has been heavily influenced by Jewish culture.

And as a result, I have a very strong allergy to anti-Semitism. I originally majored in film, but I actually switched majors to international studies when I was learning more about the Islamic Republic of Iran and the things that Ayatollah were doing back in 2012. So that motivated me to switch majors.

And then I graduated in 2015, moved to New York. I'm originally, I think I said this already, from New Orleans. But I moved to New York and got a job at the Wall Street Journal.

And while at the Wall Street Journal, I developed a thesis on this topic of trying to build a paradigmatic response to the conflict that was rooted in love and compassion, because in spite of the really beautiful education that I received and I don't want to, I cannot understate that or I cannot overstate that, rather. I received an incredible education at the University of New Orleans. There was nothing about how to respond to conflict that was rooted explicitly in love.

And so I thought I was missing. And so I wanted to develop that. And so I asked myself the question, well, if I want to know.

How we could get people to respond with love, maybe I have to ask, how do we learn how to love in the first place and what are we already in love with? Maybe that will reveal to us or to me something about the human species and how and why we love. So from that point in the research paper, the thesis that I was creating, I started researching pop culture.

I started researching Disney and Nike and Beyonce and brands that human beings have quasi-religious devotion to, at least historically speaking.

[Speaker 2] (11:30 - 11:32)

Yeah, like a gravitation towards, right?

[Speaker 1] (11:32 - 12:04)

For sure, yeah. To see if there's a common theme, a common denominator. And I discovered that many of these brands create content where their audience, where we the audience, saw ourselves and our potential reflected in the content, which is why we continue to gravitate towards it.

It's like every major or good Disney film, it's a motif for the human condition. Some flawed, imperfect human being has to go through a series of obstacles, come out on the other side, basically having achieved or come to their higher self.

[Speaker 2] (12:04 - 12:10)

So there's your hero's journey, right? There's your Peterson hero's journey in every Disney movie.

[Speaker 1] (12:10 - 12:27)

Joseph Campbell, right? Like there's the classic hero's journey. And of course, you know, I can tell that prior to switching majors and majoring in film, I had a love of screenwriting and I had a love of storytelling.

So you can see that also embedded in this drive as well.

[Speaker 2] (12:28 - 12:34)

That's beautiful. Well, yeah. I mean, you hear enchantment.

I mean, come on. Yeah, it hearkens to a different thought than other.

[Speaker 1] (12:34 - 12:55)

Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

You can hear my love of storytelling. You can hear my love of film. You can hear my love of like otherworldly sort of landscapes.

I was a huge fan of Star Wars growing up as a teenager. I had a crush on Anakin Skywalker, embarrassingly so in retrospect. But I did.

[Speaker 2] (12:56 - 13:28)

So, yeah, I was in the theater with my parents. We watched Return of the Jedi in the theater. Now, I remember on the posters they used to there was words that said Revenge of the Jedi and they renamed it.

And you can actually look this up. It was Revenge of the Jedi. But the reason they didn't do that is because Jedi's don't have revenge or Jedi don't have revenge.

So they did Return of the Jedi. And that's why you see Revenge of the Sith in the like the sixth one or whatever. It's because of Sith would have that would exhibit revenge versus the more compassion, which is the return.

[Speaker 1] (13:29 - 13:33)

You know why? Did they get feedback or something that it was?

[Speaker 2] (13:33 - 13:49)

I think it was a George Lucas thing. He said he said Jedi don't don't do revenge or something like he kind of. But they had everything printed.

I mean, they had posters and everything. You can find like really rare posters and it's really interesting to see that and how that I want to find one of those.

[Speaker 1] (13:49 - 13:51)

Now I want to get my hands on this.

[Speaker 2] (13:51 - 13:57)

Yeah, you can you can look that up. Internet search real quick. You can find a problem.

Just type in Revenge of the Jedi.

[Speaker 1] (13:57 - 14:31)

Yeah, I'm going to look that up. That's awesome. So, yeah, all of those influences got put into this thing that ended up being called the Theory of Enchantment.

And in 2015 or by the end of 2015, I just had three principles and I was lecturing on college campuses in the United States, Europe and South Africa. I ended up touring those areas of the world. Specifically about the Palestinian conflicts, I would lecture.

I remember being in Frankfurt, Germany, in Berlin. I was in the Hague at some point. I was in.

[Speaker 2] (14:31 - 14:32)

Wow, you were in the Hague.

[Speaker 1] (14:33 - 16:20)

Yeah, I was in Durban. I went to Soweto and, of course, all over the United States. A different kind of campus is reintroducing a way to understand and approach the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts through the lens of those three principles.

And then afterwards, I did this because I was working for a non-profit and I worked for that non-profit for two years. And after that is when I officially established Theory of Enchantment as my own company. So I basically had an opportunity to sort of like workshop the ideas, at least on a lecture-y basis, working for that non-profit.

And then I was fortunate enough to get severance after my contract ended, which gave me space to just like work on things. At which point I developed the Theory of Enchantment full course curriculum. And that curriculum is awesome.

It's got 25 lessons and it really expands upon those three principles and builds a whole set of modalities and practices that go with those three principles. And it uses pop culture to reinforce those three principles. So we talk about speaking of revenge.

We talk about how parental baggage can be linked to taking revenge on someone else or feeling vengeful against someone else. And we use this is in the course. We use Killmonger from Black Panther as an example of that.

And we contrast T'Challa with Killmonger. And and so, yeah, there's a lot of pop culture. And it is a central piece of Theory of Enchantment's long form course curricula.

So it's really important because it's a great tool to use to teach people like these these three principles ultimately.

[Speaker 2] (16:21 - 16:40)

And it does sound like it's more universal, it doesn't sound like it's I'm not I hate to say politically aligned, but it's not aligned in any specific political ideology, I would guess. But I would guess Enchantment has come under fire recently with Disney's stuff. Has have you experienced any backlash from any from the name Enchantment with with Disney?

[Speaker 1] (16:40 - 16:49)

No, I personally haven't. The organization hasn't. You know, yeah, I know people associate some things.

[Speaker 2] (16:49 - 16:52)

I always ask those weird questions because what have you seen?

[Speaker 1] (16:52 - 16:53)

I make connections.

[Speaker 2] (16:54 - 16:58)

Well, I mean, just Disney with Florida and how they just have the back and forth, you know.

[Speaker 1] (16:58 - 16:59)

Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 2] (16:59 - 17:05)

Far right's doing X and far left's doing Y and, you know, all that. Just the back and forth on that.

[Speaker 1] (17:05 - 17:10)

I see. Yeah. No, nothing has happened with regards to us, but we'll see.

[Speaker 2] (17:10 - 17:42)

Oh, good. Good. Well, so you spoke of Christian and Jewish, Jewish faith or growing up that way.

I grew up Lutheran. My mom worked at a catering company and she was basically number two underneath the person who owned it. She was Jewish.

So we always did Passover dinners and we did. And so we had a rabbi in that in the actual catering company come in and bless the watch to watch us prepare. So I was very much entrenched in that.

And growing up, I grew up in the 80s and Israel was we were partners with Israel.

[Speaker 1] (17:43 - 17:43)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (17:43 - 18:32)

And I really would love to delve into this subject with you because I want to learn. I don't I'm not here to preach because you you clearly were taught on the subject. So I'll share what limited I know or what I feel at least.

And maybe go from there. I was a neocon. I was a neocon all the way.

You know, I enlisted. I enlisted in the military at 17. I just failed the physical.

You know, it's like I thought I was going to be that guy who is going to be, you know, Iraq. I was all for it, all that. I had a T-shirt that said, this is for you.

Not going to lie. And then I woke up like later, like it took me. Mine came from experience, not from knowledge, but everything was a lie.

Right. Or we find that we're getting our hearts broken by our country because they keep we keep finding out that they keep sneaking out on us at night. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (18:32 - 18:32)

You know what I mean?

[Speaker 2] (18:33 - 19:32)

They keep stepping out on us a little bit. So I'm kind of getting a little heartbroken from it. So I'm a little bit, Scott Horton, anti-war.

So I'm kind of more like it's I am. Absolutely. The people are not the nation that I'm criticizing.

I want to be clear. I want to clearly bifurcate the people who are the Jewish people are not the people who are the ideology of the whatever's going on there. So I'm criticizing that ideology only.

I just think that we have a have a way to just pull the funding in that way. That should be our voice. But I want to hear what you learn, because please share everything that you know about or understand about it.

Well, not everything, but yeah, we could start more recently because I'm familiar with. I watched like Martyr Maid, the Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem. I watched that twice or listened to it twice.

I you know, I mean, I'm like very much entrenched in my grandfather was a Nazi soldier.

[Speaker 1] (19:32 - 19:33)

Oh, wow.

[Speaker 2] (19:33 - 19:44)

Oh. The whole other story, but my mother was under Hitler, Stalin and Eisenhower. So so you can you can imagine that story.

But but please share that if you can.

[Speaker 1] (19:44 - 21:28)

Well, I guess I would zoom out my my my paradigm, the way that I perceive the reason why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is such a charged conflict more than any other conflict. I really believe this because it implicates our identities. Like people sometimes say it's a foreign conflict.

But I actually don't think it is. Puritans who came to this country escaping religious persecution conceived of themselves as the new Israel. Right.

They're using a language and informed by a set of stories and ideas that developed in that part of the region. Slaves in the South, my ancestors, as they eventually were brought from West Africa to the South and, you know, made to work the cotton fields, developed songs and oral sort of like art form that ended up becoming gospel, the blues, et cetera. That was taken up from stories of the Torah.

Right. Conceiving of themselves as the Hebrews in Egypt, toiling under Pharaoh's iron fist. So those are just two examples to illustrate why or the power of the paradigmatic influence on how we conceive of ourselves as a Puritan nation, as a Protestant nation, as a nation that has obviously been shaped and formed and deeply influenced by African-Americans, that sense of self.

Of Israel is that the I wouldn't say center, perhaps, but it's there, it's prominent. So that's the first thing I would say. That's why I think it stimulates.

[Speaker 2] (21:28 - 21:30)

I mean, we do speak of Judeo-Christian values, right?

[Speaker 1] (21:31 - 21:31)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (21:31 - 21:33)

We say Judeo-Christian values.

[Speaker 1] (21:34 - 21:34)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (21:34 - 21:51)

And that's the thing where we'll talk probably down the road about it. But yeah, to your point, these values were based in these traditions in some way. They are based on a book, which happens to be the most, you know, printed and sold and, you know, read or shared, shared, you know, book.

[Speaker 1] (21:52 - 22:15)

Yeah. I mean, the seal of the United States almost was going to be literally a depiction of Moses, like guiding the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt. And then it changed to something else.

But that was the original edit for the United States seal. So it's deeply embedded in our psyche, even if we're not conscious of it. And I think that's why we are so charged.

[Speaker 2] (22:15 - 22:22)

But it makes sense. I mean, think about the think about the escape. I mean, think of I mean, Moses's journey in the Protestants coming here.

[Speaker 1] (22:22 - 22:23)

Yeah, exactly.

[Speaker 2] (22:23 - 22:41)

Persecution. And I could totally see that because you have to your point. It's a it's a it's a hero story.

You know, it's like the one that you're going to emulate to get you to your. It's the one that motivates you to do it. Right.

Because it's like, oh, my gosh, somebody did it before me. That's yeah. Now we can do it.

[Speaker 1] (22:41 - 22:47)

I don't know if you've read Massive Meaning or seen any of Jordan Peterson's lectures on on that particular topic.

[Speaker 2] (22:48 - 23:29)

I have. And it's a deep book. I mean, I've done I've done all the 12 rules and all that.

And we can talk, Peterson, too, because I'm I'm hot and cold and warm and lukewarm, and I'm kind of all over the place on him right now because of what's going on. But I have seen him lecture live. And like, I remember my girlfriend sitting next to me and I'm mouthing along or like ahead of her, like, I'm like that, you know?

And she's watching me going, stop doing that. You know, I'm like, I it's I just like following. And when I saw your podcast with him, to be completely honest, I'm absolutely blown away just by the conversation.

And I'm I'm hoping that I can even scratch him. Yeah, I'm enjoying it so far.

[Speaker 1] (23:30 - 24:18)

I appreciate you saying that. I bring up Massive Meaning. Massive Meaning is the only book by Jordan Peterson that I've read.

And like the story of Israel has that kind of power now, charged power. Now, I would say that if you're Jewish, this is very hard because what that means is that people are constantly going to be either projecting their own light onto you or they're going to be projecting their own darkness onto you or a combination of both. This goes back to the first principle.

Actually, people like human beings, not political abstractions or not like symbols or amulets. Right. And so this is one of the things that I think is prominent in this conflict.

You also have people, of course, projecting their light and darkness onto Palestinians.

[Speaker 2] (24:19 - 24:29)

And that, for me, you're saying you're claiming there's an external force that is projecting all the pieces onto each, both the Palestinian and the Israeli side.

[Speaker 1] (24:29 - 25:23)

I'm saying that human beings, when they're commenting as a whole, like they could look like a collective unconscious or whatever, like a collective unconscious of the United States is like simultaneously projecting its light and its darkness onto Israel-Palestine. And the conflict would be probably that much easier to solve if that wasn't happening. And it's hard because that's that's a psychological thing.

That's not to me that the issue is not of like. I mean, for geopolitical reasons, I don't subscribe to the idea of like. We can just remove aid and everything will be fine if we remove aid.

Hamas will continue to receive aid from Iran. Hezbollah will be emboldened and Israel will really be under threat. So just from a geopolitical strategic perspective, I don't think that's wise.

I do think that it's wise to make some aid conditional. But I don't know.

[Speaker 2] (25:23 - 25:30)

Yeah, I don't think yanking a carpet out is any good idea to anything. I mean, I don't think just yanking the plug at the bottom of the tub is smart.

[Speaker 1] (25:31 - 26:11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, not a good idea. Some some aid making conditional.

Absolutely. But it has to be like very. Very thought out.

I think that there should be a multinational like. Cooperation plan similar to the Marshall Plan to reinvest in Gaza. But that requires some sort of significant defeat of Hamas, some sort of demonstration of Iran's power or influence in the region.

That's like a multi-pronged, multi-government coordinated action that I have no level of expertise on how to bring about. But what I do have some expertise on how.

[Speaker 2] (26:11 - 26:25)

Yeah, we seem to have really good questions. I don't have all those answers, but, you know, I'm always I'm always worried about the people with the answers. I love the people with the questions, right?

The people come with the answers are the ones that scare me because they think they know it all. And it's like, no, we don't know it. All right.

[Speaker 1] (26:25 - 26:51)

Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think I would I would hypothesize that one of the things that makes it harder to get to that multinational agreement or coordination is the fact that this is a very not just literal conflict, but it is a symbolic conflict onto which we project all of our identities again, mostly unconsciously.

Like we're not aware. It's like, you know.

[Speaker 2] (26:51 - 26:52)

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (26:53 - 27:06)

You know, David Foster Wallace's commencement speech where he talks about the three fish in the water and one fish says to another, how's the water? And then the other fish says, what's water? It's like that.

[Speaker 2] (27:06 - 27:09)

It's water. Because when you're in the water, you don't know what water is.

[Speaker 1] (27:10 - 27:15)

Yeah, like it's the water totally with it. It's the water. No one realizes.

[Speaker 2] (27:15 - 27:24)

Try. Try the philosophical question. Is water wet?

Try that because water is actually water. So is it actually wet? But that's a whole other one.

[Speaker 1] (27:24 - 28:39)

But anyway, that's funny. So, yeah, I mean, I I would say that like my my not task, but my charge to people who are interested in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and we actually just put out a mini lesson, a mini course in the theory of enchantment framework on the on the conflict. If you like, it's again a question of identity, it's a question of how do you relate to yourself?

How do you relate to your parents? How do you relate to the people around you? How do you relate to the negative parts of yourself?

Are you holding those parts of yourself with compassion or are you projecting them outward unconsciously onto another human or another group of people? If you are doing that, it's OK. We all do it.

We just need to like bring conscious attention to it. Get some skill sets in our arsenal so that we can stop doing that. Because if we stop doing that, once we stop doing that, we can come to the present moment and we can solve problems in the present moment.

Like the difference is is really night and day. If I'm talking to you and you're, you know, triggering a memory of my childhood with my father, then I'm not here with you in the present moment. I'm actually responding.

[Speaker 2] (28:40 - 28:54)

Well, let's let's use let's use Israel Palestine as an example. It did not start October seven. It didn't start 67, didn't start 48.

I mean, these are you know, we can go date after date. These things didn't start like this. Just you know what I mean?

You can always turtles all the way down, right?

[Speaker 1] (28:55 - 28:56)

So, yeah, for sure.

[Speaker 2] (28:56 - 29:03)

You know, we can always find a starting point in a spark. But it's like, OK. You know, OK, now what?

[Speaker 1] (29:03 - 29:59)

You know, I'll give you that's a great example. So. There's this there's this there's this thing that gets branded about this terminology of settler colonialism that gets used, it gets used to accuse Israelis in the West Bank.

The creation of Israel is accused of being a settler colonialist project. This is an example to me of shadow. Why is an example of shadow?

We can separate the question of did the state of Israel and the reestablishment of the state of Israel? Were there actions that were taken that were harmful to Palestinians? Absolutely.

Right. Should there be repatriation and reconciliation and restoration in order to solve for the harm that was done? Absolutely.

When people, however, claim that Israel is a settler colonialist state, they're usually trying to suggest that Jews are not indigenous. To the question, which is simply right.

[Speaker 2] (30:00 - 30:02)

And they're not welcome or something in any kind of way, right?

[Speaker 1] (30:02 - 30:09)

There's some kind of cultural historical right. Like less than or they're, you know, they're condescended to. Right.

[Speaker 2] (30:09 - 30:12)

Yeah. You spoke of supremacy in your in your in your enchantment as well.

[Speaker 1] (30:13 - 30:43)

So this is a perfect example of shadow happening, shadow and supremacy happening like hand in hand. And here's what I mean by that, like the reason why there are Palestinian Arabs in the region is because Arabs colonized at some point. Right.

It's not like it's not like they were there first. I think that there's an overindexing or an overemphasizing on like, are my indigenous, are you indigenous?

[Speaker 2] (30:43 - 30:46)

It's like I believe there was a coexistence.

[Speaker 1] (30:47 - 30:52)

There were there were in some cases coexistence, but there was also the case that like to an extent.

[Speaker 2] (30:52 - 30:56)

Yeah. I mean, certainly you had your tribes and you had your conflicts and whatnot.

[Speaker 1] (30:57 - 31:07)

Well, you you also had Jewish. You had Jews being treated a certain way under the Islamic system. They're treated as less than have pay extra taxes.

All these various issues that came out of it.

[Speaker 2] (31:07 - 31:50)

I mean, they've been persecuted through throughout history. I mean, I I even look at what my grandfather would, you know, he had some brainwashing there, you know what I mean? And when he came to America and he saw the news was kind of this is the way I saw it.

I saw any kind of power from any kind of Jewish people out of competency because there happens to be a competency associated with an Ashkenazi DNA. I don't know why, but there happens to be. Sorry.

It's just like biology. This is how it works. Right.

So when you see that and then it's associated, well, then power doesn't end up getting corrupted, but it's not the it's from the competency of the person initially to get to the level they got usually.

[Speaker 1] (31:50 - 31:52)

Yeah, sure.

[Speaker 2] (31:52 - 32:36)

And it gets corrupted. And then they bring up their cronies with them. And that's when it gets all right.

So like I totally understood, like I never understood my grandfather saying that stuff. But it's like I see how people like Kanye talks about in people. And it just doesn't sit right with me in that way.

And I understand like growing up. But I remember a story hearing something about the it wasn't the Japanese empire. It was like the sub guy to the empire leader.

And he visited Hitler and he said, if we if if Japan only had a common enemy in the Jew, like you do, we could get a lot further. You know, it's kind of like 9-11 galvanized us, right? Like seven galvanized Israel.

And like that, that was their thing is like they saw the other.

[Speaker 1] (32:36 - 32:37)

Right.

[Speaker 2] (32:37 - 32:42)

Other them. And they saw them as the thing to galvanize around almost.

[Speaker 1] (32:43 - 32:53)

Right. And so this is where I guess I would I would try to try to lay out a kind of description of what I mean, again, by shadow and supremacy. The people who.

[Speaker 2] (32:53 - 32:53)

Yeah, please.

[Speaker 1] (32:54 - 33:39)

People who say that Israel is a settler colonialist state in response to, let's say, Palestinian Arabs are not wrestling with the fact that the reason why there are Arabs there in the first place is because of history of Arab colonialism. And that's what the shadow that's like what not seeing your own shadow does. Right.

You don't you can't see your shadow. And then you projected outward onto the other so that you can feel greater than bigger than better than and not have to deal with your your own insecurities. And there's there's inevitably insecurities.

This is where I would say, like, United States foreign policy large is. Of course, there would be insecurities within, let's say, the entire things and insecurity right now.

[Speaker 2] (33:39 - 33:41)

Let's not kid ourselves. This is not for sure.

[Speaker 1] (33:41 - 35:15)

But that's not I'm speaking. I'm speaking psychologically here, though. So like, yeah, absolutely.

We as Americans, I'm generalizing, we as Americans project because of 9-11 and Iraq and Afghanistan, our insecurities onto Arabs. Right. Right.

So that we can feel bigger, better, better, et cetera. And so that gets internalized in certain ways, I'm sure, by by, let's say, people in the Arab community who then project that insecurity further down the line, it's just it's just like projection of insecurity, projection of insecurity, protection of shadow, protection of shadow. And so the question, the great psychological task before us is for all of us or a significant percentage of us to take responsibility for our own shadow and recognize the shadow and light depend upon each other in order to exist.

And this is the true meaning of integration, a word that I love because it obviously has great cultural weight in our nation's history. And it takes it takes a lot of practice to actually say be able to stand and say, here I am, flaws and all. I accept myself completely unconditionally.

Right. I know that I'm a sacred being made in the image of the divine. If you want to if you want to go there and there's nothing that you can do, say, and there's nothing that I can do or say that will ever take away from that.

Right. That's a whole that's a sea change in the way we relate to religion. That's a sea change in the way that we relate to our selves as human beings.

That's basically what we're trying to shift in the culture by contributing to the conversation.

[Speaker 2] (35:16 - 35:43)

OK, so part of it is like when I think about grace is grace is very recent to me. I'm not going to lie. OK, and it's more it's more because I just I am.

I'm very dark. I'm not going to lie. I see dark.

It's very odd how I do it. I it's like I fight darkness because when I see dark things and people.

[Speaker 1] (35:43 - 35:44)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (35:46 - 36:36)

I don't want to I don't want to like throw anybody specific under bus, but when I see it, like I can see exactly how the darkness and where it's going to play out. But I'm so aware of it that I'm like consciously incapable of actually acting that way. And I think a lot of people instinctively act that way without even consciously getting to that point.

Does that make sense? So there's like a middle point in consciousness. Well, they might act evilly because they might they don't have it in their consciousness, so it's still part of their unconscious.

And it's more of a reaction than a conscious action. And then there's some people, I think, that consciously act. We we can use those names.

But it's like I see those paths, too. And it's weird because I see those paths. I just don't choose them in any way because they they're not right.

In my opinion. Yeah, bad.

[Speaker 1] (36:36 - 36:39)

So how does all of that for you?

[Speaker 2] (36:40 - 37:06)

Oh, so so what I've really learned lately is like with that anger, I get angry with that and I've never been able to say, well, I have darkness in me, too. I am also capable of that, even though I don't act on it. I'm still capable of it.

And to think that I wouldn't. Like I said, I come from a very interesting history. To think that not everyone did that.

I mean, my grandfather is no different than any other German citizen in nineteen forty X amount.

[Speaker 1] (37:06 - 37:06)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (37:07 - 38:06)

Nineteen forty X. So the grace comes in now that I'm noticing my flaws and how deeply I'm flawed. So I allow that.

Like I use an example now. Something about like Jimmy Dore said something about about learning about this, some something about that vaccine. And then somebody jumped on him about, oh, now you're talking about it.

And it's like, yeah, I was dumb back then. It's like, have a little grace. You know, guys, you know, Tucker Carlson, have a little grace.

The guy's telling you how he came. He's showing his work, you know. And then I look at someone like a Chris Cuomo and I am incapable of offering grace at this time.

The man is incapable of any humility and any kind of ability to admit anything, you know, whatever, even to say I was bamboozled this whole time. I mean, nothing. So I can't offer someone grace in that way.

So I'm I've learned that way to manage it. Is that a healthy way to manage it or should I offer grace across the board?

[Speaker 1] (38:07 - 39:59)

I mean, I think your process is your process, right? Like I wouldn't like to tell you to you need to to adopt the process. However, so grace to me is related to the word gratitude and grateful etymologically, those words are related.

And so to be in a state of grace is to be able to give thanks for all that comes. The good, the bad, the hard, the easy, the comfort, the discomfort, the joy, the rage, the sadness, like all of it. And so we do have these consumer products.

One is called Dojo. The other is called Tuning Fork, which is building it to the community of practice where every day you're basically expressing gratitude for different parts of yourself, like whether it's your tendency to condescend to people or your tendency to sometimes feel like you're in a state of flow and other times feel like you're in a state of defensiveness. There's also, of course, a noticing piece that's a part of that, those practices like part of the part of the point of awareness.

Yeah. To notice, because like you said, a lot of people, for all of us, to a certain extent, is unconscious. Right.

So we can get into a habit of noticing without the stigma attached to it, because you're not going to want to notice if there's stigma attached to it. Right. So in Dojo, there are all these questions like, right about the time where you felt expansive and a time where you felt defensive, what were the differences between those two feelings?

Right about the time where you saw another group of people as a symbol for good or bad, what's the context? We all do this. Right.

So if we can surface that and get to a place where we're able to notice it without judgment, grace will start to come up, because what will happen is you'll start to see the never ending dimensionality of what it means to be you. Right. And hopefully you'll come to a state of awe and grace and compassion.

You'll be able to extend that to another human being as a result.

[Speaker 2] (40:00 - 40:33)

That's beautiful. I like that, because like, I'll be honest, there's a lot of deprogramming. So I'm like I'm the child of two German parents, like I said, both born in Germany.

So they met here. But it's like it's funny because I mentioned the Jordan Peterson only because you spoke with him. But like he spoke about how Germans view things.

They weren't judgmental. They saw everything as disgust. They viewed it with disgust.

And when you see something is disgusting, you have to eradicate it. And everything that every action that was not deemed within the guidelines of that, of growing up was disgusting.

[Speaker 1] (40:33 - 40:34)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (40:34 - 40:41)

So like you can imagine the backlash that I received for anything outside of that really tight box that they had painted for me. You know what I mean?

[Speaker 1] (40:41 - 40:41)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (40:42 - 41:35)

But so it was one of those things. So I want to talk about love if we could, because I watched. Well, I think it was with John Wood Jr. about loving others. OK, I I don't know. I think it's a trope. You have to love yourself before you can love others or something like that.

I hear this love yourself before you love others. I I'm not going to lie with you. I loathe myself.

And it's not a joke. I absolutely loathe almost everything about myself. And that's just I can't explain it.

It's a whole other thing. But I have a healthy relationship of six years and I show every way that I can show love that I can. And when I heard your words about the way to finally love yourself is by showing love to others in a way.

Is that could you share me with me your philosophy on that?

[Speaker 1] (41:35 - 42:16)

Yeah, it goes back to what we were just talking about. If I can express gratitude and I would say gratitude is a quality of love or quality of unconditional love to give thanks for everything as it as it comes, because it's a part of the miracle being alive. You know what a wild experience we're both having right now.

Just being alive and like at this time and place and having this conversation over this technology that's enabling us to do so. Right. It's a it's a miracle, but it's also easy to take for granted.

And so this idea of practicing like toilet paper. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. So many things. So many things we take for granted.

[Speaker 2] (42:17 - 42:25)

Right. Anyway, sorry, I just I try. I always try to like throw one example in there just so people can.

Oh, yeah. I dealt with that. You know what I mean?

[Speaker 1] (42:25 - 43:15)

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, please clean, clean water.

Like there's so many places around the world that don't have clean water. We take it for granted. So I'm with you on that.

That's really important. So there's this idea that we practice in the theory of enchantment, which is expressing gratitude for all that we are, including, let's say, for example, the fact that you loathe yourself. Like there would be a there would be a quest in the theory of enchantment if I were to like tailor it according to according to you specifically to be like, oh, like notice the time that notice the time in the past day or the past week where you felt self-contempt.

I write about it and just the act of noticing it. I bet I am willing to bet would reveal to you moments where you're not loathing yourself.

[Speaker 2] (43:16 - 44:08)

Yes. And I want to be clear about that. It's a general loathing.

And I wanted I wanted to give you the hard one. And then we can always soften back. Let me let me hit the point.

But it is true. It's to your point is I've really learned to manage it. And I worked.

I spent it. It's about almost about 10 years, maybe nine years ago or something that I started just to that's a whole other story. But to manage that part of that loathing, because I do, I'm very aware of the portions that I don't like myself.

And I understand even where they're rooted. So I've gotten to that point about it myself. A lot of people don't have the fortune that I had to afford.

Someone to talk to in the way that was able to talk to me in the way that I could break it down. Right. So like that's where I show a lot of grace and gratitude is like I may have some stuff up here, but at least I I'm fortunate enough to be able to address them.

[Speaker 1] (44:08 - 44:08)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (44:09 - 44:10)

I hope other people can do the same.

[Speaker 1] (44:10 - 44:37)

I relate to that as well. I actually struggled with low self-esteem as a child and to my teenage years. So I also have a little bit of that self-loathing in me.

And the theory of enchantment has helped me, along with many of, you know, teachers, mentors, people who have shown me incredible love and compassion. Parents have helped me with that. But that is something that I've struggled with as well.

And I'm sure there's a bit of that that's motivated the creation of the theory of enchantment. So I resonate with that.

[Speaker 2] (44:38 - 45:21)

It's beautiful. So thank you for sharing that as well, because I think we all have I mean, we kind of all come from similar places in some way, because whatever is, you know, the worst thing that's happened to you is the worst thing that's happened to you. Regardless of that level, you know, we talk about contrast, right?

Like everybody talks about, I want to I want to I just want to feel happy. You can't feel just happy. There's no happy without feeling some other contrast to happy.

What are you going to compare happy to? I don't understand. I don't get like the contrast is like the whole thing about life.

And it's all the different shades. All it's not just black and white and binary. It's all those different colors and shades in between.

[Speaker 1] (45:21 - 45:29)

You know what I love about the word happy, though, or happiness is that like it's related. So I'm a I'm I don't know if you've noticed, but I'm obsessed with words.

[Speaker 2] (45:30 - 45:32)

Etymologist, right? Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (45:32 - 45:55)

The word happy is it contains the same root word for happening. Like something's happening. Or it's the same word.

And you could argue probably. I mean, I have tried to argue this. I don't know if I've been successful, but like the original word, if you just look at it at face value, just really means to be present in everything that's happening.

[Speaker 2] (45:56 - 45:57)

Oh, OK.

[Speaker 1] (45:57 - 45:59)

Through everything that's happening.

[Speaker 2] (45:59 - 46:01)

And that we twisted it, right?

[Speaker 1] (46:02 - 46:20)

Yeah. Whenever I hear the word happy now or happiness. Now I hear that.

And it brings me such joy. It brings me such joy because it's a tangible meaning. All right.

Like I know what that means. That's something I can actually achieve. It's hard, but I can actually achieve that.

I feel that I feel like I can be present.

[Speaker 2] (46:20 - 46:23)

You can achieve presence, right? Like a Eckhart Tolle power of now, right?

[Speaker 1] (46:24 - 46:43)

Exactly. Exactly. I can achieve that.

And that feels like empowering, right? As opposed to, oh, I want to be happy. I have no idea what that word means.

Like a vague feeling word. So anyway, I thought I'd share that, because that that's just that just makes me laugh that that that that word contains such roots.

[Speaker 2] (46:45 - 47:28)

Yeah, and I really appreciate that. And we're going to get to one of the other words as well. But if I may share a story to kind of solidify, this part is like the happiness part.

I've started to kind of get more busy. And with that, I spent a little bit. I've not been able to be as attentive in my relationship, but we always have a date night.

So we always have a date. It's like when it's date night, everything's off. Everything's the phone.

You know what I mean? It's like you have to be present with the person you're with in the moment. You can't think about the next post or the next reply or the next thing you're going to upload or the you know what I mean?

The next piece of news, you have to be in that moment. And it really is important to just kind of really stop and take a breath and look around just for a second. You know, I really appreciate it.

[Speaker 1] (47:28 - 47:29)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (47:29 - 47:33)

So you talk about compassion. So part of that word is passion.

[Speaker 1] (47:34 - 47:34)

Yes.

[Speaker 2] (47:34 - 48:07)

Passion, you know, has obviously been twisted over the years. Passion used to mean the things with through which we would struggle and do anything to to to get to. Right.

So it really is about the struggle, not about, you know what I mean? The thing that we would struggle through, not just because passion now is like, oh, I have a passion for this until it gets boring and then you have a passion for something else. It's not a passion, right?

You know, the passion of the Christ is the same original. So how what are your thoughts about passion, compassion, how they integrate and how like those words and how that work with your with your model or what are your thoughts on this?

[Speaker 1] (48:08 - 49:12)

So compassion with pain, but with suffering to be with suffering. Oh, I would say we talk about like if you do these practices, you'll start to have compassion for yourself. Right.

I think that the contrast is like experiencing pain and trying to run away from it. And what I mean by that in a very concrete manner is let's say that I experience sadness, which I have as a result of having low self-esteem. I didn't like that feeling.

Feeling of sadness made me feel very uncomfortable physically. But over time, I learned to be with my sadness. A great example of this is like the blues as a musical genre.

The blues was invented as a way to be with one's sadness. The idea behind the blues, as Albert Murray says, is that the blues is about love. By singing the blues, I get rid of the blues as such.

But you're not trying to escape the blues. You're not trying to escape the sadness. Are you actually learning oneness?

[Speaker 2] (49:14 - 49:15)

Yeah. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (49:16 - 49:22)

I bring up the musical piece because it's like a very I don't know for I'm a musician. I love singing and playing guitar.

[Speaker 2] (49:22 - 49:37)

You can talk music. I will say two of my favorite documentaries. I don't know if you look in the background here.

I've got a I think I've got Marley Bob Marley's right there. And that's Hendrix. And that's Muhammad Ali there.

And there's Billy Joel over there.

[Speaker 1] (49:38 - 49:39)

Oh, cool. OK.

[Speaker 2] (49:39 - 49:44)

So I've got a bunch of other stuff. But anyway. Oh, please.

Go ahead.

[Speaker 1] (49:44 - 50:02)

So music is a great example. It's like a concrete, you know, you're a musical person. You know what I mean when I say like being with your sadness and the context of the blues.

Right. Now, music is one of many modalities that helps us practice that. Journaling is another modality that helps us practice that.

[Speaker 2] (50:02 - 51:03)

And that's what I mean. Music music is really poetry to to sound right. Like it's not it's just another enhanced step.

Right. Music was poetry. So I just wanted to mention, if I could, two documentaries.

If you haven't watched them. One is called Muscle Shoals. And it is it will it tugs.

You can watch it even on YT. I'm not going to say that group, but you could probably watch it for free on there. And it's about Muscle Shoals music and like how they brought in Percy Sledge and like when a man loves a woman.

When I hear that song, you want to hear pain. And with the suffering, that is all of it. You know what I mean?

And then if I may, the other one was was called Hitsville. And it's about it's about Motown. And if I may, I just saw Smokey Robinson a couple of weeks ago in April.

I saw him. Oh, two years old in Vegas. Yeah.

Oh, I drove up. It was so much fun. Yeah.

So anyway, but yeah. So with the suffering, talk to me about your musical background and that and that piece.

[Speaker 1] (51:04 - 51:23)

So I've been producing my own original songs since maybe 2017, 2018. I like to imbibe on marijuana, isolate myself in my room, go on Logic Pro and just go to town, lay beats, record. I was out of tincture.

[Speaker 2] (51:25 - 51:35)

I know not of what you speak. Yes, it might be. Not sure.

I like when I like the term imbibe. It's just one of my favorite words.

[Speaker 1] (51:36 - 51:40)

Yeah, I love that word, too. It's a great word. So, yeah, I've been producing.

[Speaker 2] (51:40 - 51:44)

And Harper Burn One Down is one of my favorite songs. It's just a great song. I used to sing it.

[Speaker 1] (51:44 - 51:46)

And so I don't know that. I don't know that song.

[Speaker 2] (51:46 - 51:48)

Oh, I'll share it with you sometime. You'll like it.

[Speaker 1] (51:49 - 52:40)

OK, cool. So I like to make music as a like. It's interesting for some people.

Journaling is their thing that moves the energy, like stuck energy out. For me, it's actually primarily music, music and dance. Actually, there's a great toss up between those two.

But music, especially when I can put things to sound, the sound that resonates with me deeply and sing out whatever I'm sitting with or whatever I'm struggling with, wrestling with, etc. It actually moves it out like a clear space for me. And so I've been doing that since, like I said, 2017.

I've just started to perform live for the first time in a long time since since covid, actually. So I'm excited and nervous about that. But I'm excited about it.

[Speaker 2] (52:41 - 52:43)

Do you have any dates or you have like a link with some dates or anything?

[Speaker 1] (52:44 - 52:56)

I don't have a link. But August 8th, I am performing a 30 minute set at Mike Geffner's open mic night in New York, Brooklyn, New York. If anyone is in town and wants to swing by.

I like it.

[Speaker 2] (52:56 - 53:03)

We'll definitely have to plug that for sure. So so do you play and sing or what? What's your instrument of choice or what?

[Speaker 1] (53:03 - 53:24)

I'm primarily just going to be singing over songs that I've produced electronically, but I do play guitar. I play pentatonic scale on guitar and I like to jam with others. I also play a little bit of djembe again when I'm jamming with others.

So and I sing as well. And I really increasingly enjoy singing a lot.

[Speaker 2] (53:25 - 53:30)

Singing is my thing. I was actually a singer, like in a cover band for a handful of years.

[Speaker 1] (53:30 - 53:30)

Oh, cool.

[Speaker 2] (53:31 - 53:32)

So what was that like?

[Speaker 1] (53:32 - 53:33)

What was the touring situation like?

[Speaker 2] (53:34 - 54:38)

It wasn't like that. It was like weekends only. So I had like a full time job.

But I was putting in like 80, 90 hours because I'd work till, you know, six days in a row and then do that. And then, you know, those are till five in the morning. It's a grind, but like I have a weird claim to fame.

You can look it up. I was on a band called Jumper in Philly, just outside Philadelphia. And they were on a show called VH1's Cover Wars.

It was a one season thing. And they actually won the thing. And I was I had just joined them like on like a trial basis when they had won.

So I wasn't in the show, but I was with them at the time that they were going through it. But I knew I was like on a trial basis. So that's my only claim to real fame.

But it was just fun stuff. But yeah, singing, you know, it's funny because singing for me was I took it so seriously because I wanted to be accurate. And I took it.

I didn't get lost in it as much. I have such a perfectionism in me. But when I'm sitting here at the computer and I'm working remotely, tears are flowing and I'm just belting out.

Oh, wow. And I don't care what it is. You know, it's just.

[Speaker 1] (54:38 - 54:39)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (54:39 - 55:03)

So, yeah, like what? I don't know if you're familiar with like a lot of soul R&D music, but the impressions, Curtis Mayfield, people get ready. That song just sings to me.

That song, I hear it and I listen to it. And then I hear a version from Aretha and the Staple Sisters with the weight and the band, and I just get lost in all kinds of music. So music is just such a beautiful thing.

[Speaker 1] (55:03 - 55:29)

So that is a great encapsulation of compassion. I feel like music is actually like the perfect sort of container to describe compassion, because if you're feeling sad or if you're feeling angry, if you're feeling anything to sing, it is to be with it. By definition, to be with the emotion, to be with the feeling as opposed to running away from it, that is what I mean by compassion.

[Speaker 2] (55:30 - 55:31)

That's beautiful.

[Speaker 1] (55:31 - 55:34)

And you can see people, everyone connects to it, right? It's a universal thing.

[Speaker 2] (55:34 - 56:31)

Yeah, it is. I mean, it wouldn't work. I mean, and it's and it's interesting because I actually relate to like rhythm and there's something about I there's people I use, Kanye West.

He has. He understands how the frequency, the pace, the there's it's like I almost I can't I I I'll admit my ignorance. It's almost feels African in nature because we're all from Africa.

So it almost feels like he he strikes at the court, the first 20 people that were dancing around a fire. You know, it's like that beat. And I think of like a weird one.

I think of the song, the remix of Fall Out Boy. This ain't a scene. It's an army arms race.

And that's like, oh, go, go. And it's just like this almost like just rhythm and it just pulls you in. Yeah.

And I listen to 808s and Heartbreak and I'm just like sucked in. And then he opens his mouth and I'm like, come on, Kanye.

[Speaker 1] (56:32 - 56:34)

It's a vortex, right?

[Speaker 2] (56:34 - 56:36)

The vortex. There you go. Yeah, talk.

[Speaker 1] (56:36 - 56:50)

Yeah, it's I'm fascinated by sound. And there is something implicit in the theory of enchantment that is related to sound because it's enchantment, right? There's a chant.

There's there's a singing that this idea that everything is singing. Everything is alive.

[Speaker 2] (56:50 - 56:53)

And if you're not really together in unison, right?

[Speaker 1] (56:53 - 57:17)

And if you're not if you're not relating to yourself and others in that way, then that produces disharmony. And so we want to bring you back to a state of harmony where you're able to really in that way. And I the way you're describing Kanye, that's how I relate to Afrobeats or Afro House.

Like, I guess I feel like I heard that in the womb, like in my mother's womb. But that sound feels so ancient and so primordial.

[Speaker 2] (57:17 - 57:20)

And with a heartbeat, it might it might it might be heartbeat related or.

[Speaker 1] (57:20 - 57:39)

Yeah, for sure. Nina Simone actually talks about this in one of her songs where she actually, of course, it's like when she does Miriam Makeba's. So she was asked Miriam Makeba from South Africa, asked her to do one of her songs, and she did it live.

It's called West Wind. It's a really beautiful song. If you haven't listened to it, check it out.

[Speaker 2] (57:39 - 57:43)

But I'm going to listen to it right after we're done, because Nina, I love you.

[Speaker 1] (57:44 - 58:08)

So she in the beginning introduces the drummers and she says. Like, I want to introduce you to the drummers, the heart and soul of the band. And if you think about it.

All of our lives are centered around our heartbeat and that's rhythm, is it not? That's what she says. And then she does.

And then the drummer start drumming and then she just goes into this. It's a really, really beautiful composition.

[Speaker 2] (58:08 - 58:10)

That's cool. I love that. That's great.

[Speaker 1] (58:11 - 58:11)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (58:11 - 58:16)

Yeah, it's like and it's like there's a song like Paul Simon, Diamonds in the Soles of Her Shoes.

[Speaker 1] (58:16 - 58:17)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (58:17 - 58:20)

The opening part of that that show mama, you know, just that.

[Speaker 1] (58:20 - 58:59)

You know, do you know? So that album, the whole thing is Graceland, right? There's another album, actually, that I'm thinking of.

I think it's like Rhythm of the Saints, maybe. I might get that. I might be getting that wrong.

I think it's called Rhythm of the Saints or something like that, but there's there's songs that there's one particular song called She Moves On, which starts with the djembe. I think it's a djembe, I don't know if it's djembe, but it starts with like that Congo drum sound. It's really beautiful.

There's a bunch of songs on that particular album that he performed a lot in Central Park in like 1991 that are really.

[Speaker 2] (59:00 - 1:01:17)

That's the one I always listen to is the one that live performance. Yeah, it's so beautiful. So, yeah, big fan.

The music is always moving. It's just always been the thing because like we're from like Philadelphia area. So like my mom saw Little Stevie Wonder when he was like 14.

Wow. You know, it's like, wow. You know, it's like, you know, they went down the shore and they put on oldies, you know, and that's what oldies back then.

But, you know, for oldies for us. So like that was my mom kind of just pulled me right in. So, yeah.

And if you haven't seen Hitsville, that's definitely what that's about as well with Smokey, Smokey, Barry Gordy and Stevie and Michael Jackson, for example. And I did a whole podcast with Michael Jackson's nephew, Taj, about the whole allegations. So we could talk about that and we could talk about anything.

I'd love to get in your spirituality side or anything that you'd be interested in, because. I, I, for example, like I said, I consider myself an anti-theist and I'll explain that, but I've had a person who who had me on a I had him on my podcast for two and a half hours sharing this sick religion. Tell me about it.

I'd love to hear, you know, so I'm here to hear what people say, because personally, the personal faith, zero issue with and I'll explain the other stuff, but zero issue with that direct link, because we all there has to be some kind of connection in that way. It's when humans get involved that I always find it to be the challenge. Right.

When you create the hierarchy out of it. So it's almost like it's government for God. It's like I never understood the libertarian thing is like libertarians are Christian.

I'm like, wait, you want to give up your you want to give up your right, your freedoms to God and serve him while you're fighting, serving a guy? Wait, what's what's the difference to me? Like, I always thought is like the birthright wasn't a God, right?

It was a birthright of freedom and liberty. And I've honed this over time. So I'm not like, oh, I was.

Right. I mean, I admit I was like Sam Harrison and like, you know, let's nuke everything, you know, it's the it's the core of all evil. And I've certainly honed that thought process over the years.

But I'd love to hear your evolution over your time and your general ideas and thoughts about it.

[Speaker 1] (1:01:17 - 1:01:24)

Yeah, I love talking about spirituality. I would like to know more at some point what you mean by anti theist. I'm a non theist.

[Speaker 2] (1:01:26 - 1:03:03)

So it's basically the anti part is theism is kind of a human made ideal like idea. So some of the base movement was out of free. It's called free thought that I stumbled upon.

Someone mentioned free thought in the eighteen hundreds, I believe. And it was it was basically about how come people are saying that they're free from other people's tyranny, but not free from God's tyranny. Who's to tell you that God is one?

You should the tyranny because it's like, why am I giving up my service here? Because you're serving God. I mean, there's, you know, passages of serving God.

So it hearkens to wait. You're not free then, are you? You know, in that in that ideology.

So I always thought that theism was humans bastardization and their ability to make us go to war over an idea and a fake thing and an invisible creature that they created and personified for us to fight over. I see I see God as the concept of doing the better thing in the situation. OK, I see it very similar to Peterson in that way.

But he but what gets me is he doesn't say like God's not a thing because God, to me, is not a thing. Yeah, it's like conceptually the idea of doing good. Right.

We talk about etymology, the idea of goodness, the goodness in each situation. And that's where the books of the Bible with Job and these other pieces of Cain and Abel would give you stories to teach you the better of the outcomes or the better act in each of those situations that you come across.

[Speaker 1] (1:03:04 - 1:04:14)

Hmm. OK, that's helpful. So in terms of my journey, I was raised in a very, um, very active Christian home.

So like Christianity was everything that my family's life revolved around. Right. Like even if today I were to go home and visit my parents before we go out anywhere, we stand in a circle and we pray.

We ask God to watch over us as we go wherever we want to go. Right. So that's just how big your family is.

You're you're maybe a family or sisters. So mom, dad, four sisters. So a household of seven in total.

And so everything revolves around religion in that sense. And that was true for me up until senior year in college, when my understanding of Christianity started to become upended, primarily because I had an anthropology professor who was a atheist and a liberal. I grew up in a conservative home and a liberal.

And I was conditioned to see both of those things as like other. I was conditioned.

[Speaker 2] (1:04:15 - 1:04:17)

Yeah, both of those were for me, too. Yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:04:17 - 1:05:10)

Yeah. And and then my teacher showed up in a way that was like very loving. For at a very like she showed us a video of these conservative Christian families that was very critical, but she didn't pass judgment on them.

And she actually ended up fighting with an atheist student who was passing judgment on them. They got like into a verbal disagreement. It was very loud.

But I was struck by how she showed up in a very loving way. And then that totally didn't make sense, according to the heuristics and the boxes that I had built into my mind about how the way the world is supposed to work. And that led to anxiety because times that I was carrying no longer worked anymore.

And so for the following few years, remember, this is when I start developing the theory of enchantment also.

[Speaker 2] (1:05:11 - 1:05:19)

So for the next few years, no pressure, no stress, no problem. You got this. You got just any, you know, Fannie, put the load right.

Just put the load right on.

[Speaker 1] (1:05:20 - 1:05:52)

Yeah. Yeah. So wrestling with with spirituality, religion.

I never have a atheist phase. Or at least I define that as like I get this where I don't believe in the transcendent. That's how I would describe that.

I never go through that. I go through phases where I'm angry with God. I've actually more recently gone through a phase where I'm angry at the conception of God.

I was led to believe in. But I've never sort of like not believe in the dad.

[Speaker 2] (1:05:53 - 1:05:57)

Tell me, do you mind sharing a little bit about that? Or is that a little too personal for her?

[Speaker 1] (1:05:58 - 1:06:00)

I'm trying to think of what's a good.

[Speaker 2] (1:06:01 - 1:06:33)

The reason I ask is this is like, once again, we all come from different things and we have all learned and changed and evolved and tomorrow is different than today. And as soon as we hang up, I'm going to be different than I was when we were talking. So it's always good to know that somebody came from somewhere that you came from.

So if if we can relate that someone feels exactly how you felt at that time, they might be able to watch this, relate to it, and that might help them give them a course. You know what I mean? So if you if you're happy to share them, I'm always happy to let people be open to that.

[Speaker 1] (1:06:34 - 1:07:25)

Yeah, I guess my anger was with the very, for lack of a better word, patriarchic conception of God that I was conditioned to believe in. There's no divine feminine in the heat. You're right.

There's there's no she. There's only he there's only got the father. There's only got the son.

God doesn't have any daughters. There's no like there's no presence of the female, really, on the same level in any of the stories that I was raised to believe. And of course, also the church that I grew up was patriarchic, you know, was very much like women can't be preachers, can't be pastors.

There's nothing which, you know, the implication is that there's nothing that women have to say about relationship with God. This is actually one of my critiques of Peterson, which is that I don't know if you saw he did. I heard that.

[Speaker 2] (1:07:26 - 1:07:30)

I like that because he did the the Exodus series and there wasn't a woman.

[Speaker 1] (1:07:30 - 1:07:32)

There was a single woman on the panel.

[Speaker 2] (1:07:33 - 1:07:36)

So there were four there were four total people. Is that correct?

[Speaker 1] (1:07:37 - 1:07:37)

I think so.

[Speaker 2] (1:07:37 - 1:07:47)

OK, no, I'm once again, please don't. This is me asking the question. This isn't me taking Peterson's side.

What's the percentage of women in the field? Is it 25 percent?

[Speaker 1] (1:07:48 - 1:07:48)

I have no idea.

[Speaker 2] (1:07:49 - 1:08:11)

And I don't know what his circles are. And, you know, he's got his buddy circles that kind of agree with what he agrees. I'm not defending it.

Please understand, because I do have my criticism. But when I saw that, I thought that was a very healthy criticism of him. Yeah.

Of his. Because of four, you would think, I mean, one person out of four would be a good balance, at least to have another viewpoint from the from the matriarchy side.

[Speaker 1] (1:08:11 - 1:08:37)

I think also even more from my perspective, the reason why I want to see it is like. By definition. I relate to.

The divine differently from a man does because I relate to reality differently from the way a man does a very basic biological difference is that I experience death once a month. Right.

[Speaker 2] (1:08:38 - 1:08:57)

Because I guess I really thought about that. Right. So I was looking even broader is that men deal with things and women deal with people in a more general sense.

But I thought, yeah, tell me about this. So tell me about this, because I've never you just like there's an epiphany that you just shared with me. And I never thought of it that way.

So, please.

[Speaker 1] (1:08:58 - 1:10:16)

Yeah. So I am because as a woman, I am in touch with death and with the cycle of death and life and death and life in a very concrete, tactile way, because I experience cycles every month, once a month, that relationship. Informs how I relate to time, how I relate to space, how I relate to the seasons, how I relate to agriculture, how I relate to food, how I relate to reality itself.

And so it inevitably colors and informs how I relate to the divine. What we mean when we talk about the sacred. Right.

So by definition, I'm going to have a different take. Then what a man how a man will relate to, whether it's the Old Testament or the Bible or any other sacred text, I would say I'm going to have a different relationship to the sense of the sacred than a man would have. And that's OK.

These different takes are complementary, I would argue. Right. And actually, it's a beautiful thing to have both of those takes represented because they can shape each other.

They can, you know, wrestle with each other. They can inform each other. And a third thing will emerge from the two things coming into being.

[Speaker 2] (1:10:16 - 1:10:16)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:16 - 1:10:27)

And that that's a missed opportunity when you don't have the foresight to. To platform that or to demonstrate that or to even be thinking about that, that's a missed opportunity.

[Speaker 2] (1:10:28 - 1:10:39)

So, yeah, I know what you mean. And to your point, if I know you didn't watch his other or read his other books, but like in a weird way, calling the feminine chaos. Oh, yeah.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:40 - 1:10:41)

He does.

[Speaker 2] (1:10:41 - 1:10:42)

Like a little bit of that.

[Speaker 1] (1:10:42 - 1:10:43)

And that's the meaning.

[Speaker 2] (1:10:43 - 1:10:56)

But he does a little chaos order. They're like little digs almost like. Yeah.

And I hate to say it, but it does seem that way. But it's almost like he's so traditionally conservative. It's like he doesn't know how to explain it because it's just worked all this time or something.

You know what I mean?

[Speaker 1] (1:10:56 - 1:11:14)

Well, he's a Westerner also, right? He's not in the east. There's a whole other cosmology.

And I've I've been I've been on an eastern trip like we can talk about that, if you like. And yeah, we can. Religiously, since 2020, I started meditating, started like.

[Speaker 2] (1:11:14 - 1:11:24)

OK, so out of Christianity. So college, you had this breakdown. Now I have a similar cognitive dissonance.

And now what do you do? You're lost in college, right? With the religious.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:25 - 1:11:27)

You're religiously homeless. This is after college.

[Speaker 2] (1:11:27 - 1:11:28)

OK. OK.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:28 - 1:11:32)

This is like 2015 to 2020, I guess.

[Speaker 2] (1:11:33 - 1:11:40)

Oh, wow. Yeah. So right during right before COVID, right when you get to look at yourself in the mirror every day for three years.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:40 - 1:11:42)

Right. Right. Perfect timing.

Divine timing.

[Speaker 2] (1:11:43 - 1:11:43)

Perfect. I don't.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:43 - 1:11:48)

By the way, I wasn't like. Depressed every single day between. Right, right.

[Speaker 2] (1:11:48 - 1:11:53)

I totally get what you're saying. Is we who wrestle with God? Let's not get ourselves.

[Speaker 1] (1:11:53 - 1:12:21)

Yeah, exactly. I was wrestling. I was really like there would be times I would go home and I would sleep for most of the time because I wasn't I hadn't been able to reconcile myself to my home.

It was it's so interesting. It had a physical like correlate. It wasn't just an intellectual thing.

Like I would go home and I would feel so tired and I would sleep for most of the time. It changes purpose. Yeah.

Something wasn't alive.

[Speaker 2] (1:12:21 - 1:12:24)

Literally does. Just there's the purpose.

[Speaker 1] (1:12:24 - 1:12:31)

I mean, yeah, it was like an alarm bell was going off and I like an Alice in Wonderland or something. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:12:32 - 1:12:37)

You know, so you start so you started getting into 2020 comes and tell me about your evolution from there.

[Speaker 1] (1:12:38 - 1:13:18)

So in December of 2019, I watch a great film by my favorite film director of all time, Terrence Malick. The name of the film is called A Hidden Life. It's a true story.

It's the only film he's done to date. So there's no true story. It's about this Austrian man who becomes like a nonviolent dissident against the Nazis.

And he goes all the way up to Berlin in the prison system until he's killed. But I walked out of the theater, I started in the theater and I walked out so deeply feeling like I need to start meditating because it's very meditative film. It's like a it's like a meditation as he makes this journey.

[Speaker 2] (1:13:18 - 1:13:21)

It has like a music and kind of pulls you through than that.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:22 - 1:13:22)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:13:22 - 1:13:23)

Kind of meditative way.

[Speaker 1] (1:13:24 - 1:13:48)

And all of Terrence Malick's or most of Terrence Malick's films. Nature is a character. So the way his cinematography is done is very, very unique.

And he's just an incredible storyteller in that sense. So I come up I come away from that, but I'm still not like fully on the bandwagon. I've I'm also talking to Coleman about his experience meditating Coleman Hughes.

So I'm asking him about it a little bit.

[Speaker 2] (1:13:49 - 1:14:04)

And then, of course, I'd like to get in a conversation with Coleman as well, because, yeah, and I want to go back on that in a second. But yeah, because he had some Israel Gaza stuff that I'd like to circle possibly back on. Curious if you talk with him about that.

But if you didn't, it's totally OK.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:04 - 1:14:05)

I did it. I did it.

[Speaker 2] (1:14:05 - 1:14:08)

OK. No worries. So you talk with Coleman about his spirituality meditation.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:09 - 1:14:19)

Yeah. And then I March 2020 descends on us. And I a friend of mine told me about the work of John Verveche.

Do you know John Verveche is?

[Speaker 2] (1:14:19 - 1:14:25)

I know John Verveche. I know that name so well, please. It's like on the tip of my brain.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:26 - 1:14:34)

So he's a cognitive scientist at the University of Toronto, same place where Peterson came out of. He's actually Peterson's colleague. There's actually a great debate or debate between the two of them.

[Speaker 2] (1:14:35 - 1:14:37)

I probably watch that. That's probably where I remember that.

[Speaker 1] (1:14:38 - 1:15:03)

It's really, really good. So anyway, I start following his stuff. He has a really beautiful podcast called Awakening from the Meaning Crisis.

It's 50 episode podcast where he goes through, like the history of the world, starting from the Axial Revolution all the way to the Hellenistic times. I want to say, actually, Mel Brooks, first of all, all the way to Martin Luther, actually. Like, it's really, really good.

[Speaker 2] (1:15:04 - 1:15:10)

Oh, Martin Luther. That's like, is that medieval times, right? Catholic Martin Luther 15, 16.

[Speaker 1] (1:15:10 - 1:15:14)

I don't know. I don't know. But it's it's pretty.

[Speaker 2] (1:15:14 - 1:15:30)

I'm happy to feign my ignorance there. It's kind of like whenever like I whenever I get something wrong about like somebody in pop culture, who's like a woman, you know, somebody who's hot, like if I don't get Taylor Swift's birthday right. I'm OK with that.

Like I kind of take that as a badge of honor that I don't know it.

[Speaker 1] (1:15:30 - 1:15:33)

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what I'm going to do with it.

[Speaker 2] (1:15:33 - 1:15:38)

But so so spirituality, meditation through through outside of our Vicky.

[Speaker 1] (1:15:38 - 1:16:26)

We're thinking he was teaching meditation during COVID. So he would go on to YouTube and like produce videos of himself teaching Vipassana meditation. So that's when I started meditating.

And I would go, I would do every day for eight minutes, 45 minutes. At some point, I was doing an hour a day. And I did that for a number of years.

At the same time, I'm starting to study Taoism. I read like the Tao of Pooh, which is about how Pooh Bear is like or Winnie the Pooh is a Taoist text. And I'm reading more Carl Jung as well.

And yeah, just like slowly but surely. Oh, I also watch Avatar, the Last Airbender for the first time in my life, which has a huge impact on me. The cartoon of the movie, God forbid.

The cartoon, right.

[Speaker 2] (1:16:26 - 1:16:29)

The movie was a little different, but you're talking about the cartoon, right?

[Speaker 1] (1:16:29 - 1:17:08)

Cartoon, the cartoon. Yeah. So all of a sudden, the East is entering into my consciousness.

And what has happened since now I have a morning chanting practice. I studied with a woman for the past seven months who's a vocal coach who like used the chakra system and studied with many different traditions in the East and the Amazon all over the world and came up with a system based on the chakra system where there's a chance that's associated with each chakra. And you chant basically for 30 minutes a day.

And I've been doing this for the past several months.

[Speaker 2] (1:17:09 - 1:17:12)

It's basically like you're talking about all the seven chakras, correct? Core, heart.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:13 - 1:17:14)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The seven chakras.

[Speaker 2] (1:17:15 - 1:17:17)

But yeah, but you're going through all seven. But you do one at a time.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:18 - 1:17:24)

You do one at a time and you do like one for 40 days and then you move on to the next one for 40.

[Speaker 2] (1:17:24 - 1:17:28)

Right. So it's like systematic. Yeah, like focus on each one.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:28 - 1:17:29)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:17:29 - 1:17:32)

Constant cleansing or. Yeah, it's like a sound bath.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:32 - 1:17:34)

You're like giving yourself a sound bath every morning, essentially.

[Speaker 2] (1:17:34 - 1:17:35)

Yeah, I hear that.

[Speaker 1] (1:17:36 - 1:18:23)

And it's been really cool. I really enjoy it. Like it really.

It's like a tuning fork. It really orients me and harmonizes me and gives me a sense of balance and a way to start my day that feels really beautiful and sacred and full of reverence. Like I feel when I wake up in the morning that there is form.

And that's another thing that I admire about the East and many different traditions, including like Japanese traditions that I've come across. There's a lot of like obviously also with like Tai Chi, stuff like that, there's form, right? There's form in the way things are done.

And as a dancer, someone who loves dance, I resonate with that deeply. I also simultaneously to all of this. Last August started playing Capoeira.

Do you know what Capoeira is?

[Speaker 2] (1:18:24 - 1:18:29)

And I know that once again, I know of it. I've heard of it. Is it?

Yeah. Is it a percussion?

[Speaker 1] (1:18:30 - 1:18:36)

No, no, no. It's not an instrument. So it's a Brazilian.

It's a Brazilian martial art form. It's also known.

[Speaker 2] (1:18:36 - 1:18:49)

Oh, yeah. The thing with the dancing where you're like fluid, like doing the dance. OK, yeah.

Capoeira. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome.

So that must be great because you come from a dancing background. That must be like this perfect integration of that for you.

[Speaker 1] (1:18:49 - 1:19:00)

It's really what's cool about it is that when I'm reading, let's say, Buddhist texts on the Bodhisattva tradition, which is about loving kindness and compassion.

[Speaker 2] (1:19:00 - 1:19:03)

And I have the Dharma Parna, the Dharma Parna.

[Speaker 1] (1:19:03 - 1:19:04)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:19:04 - 1:19:06)

So I read through that every once in a while.

[Speaker 1] (1:19:07 - 1:19:18)

So what's interesting about having a movement practice in Capoeira is that it actually we talk about contrasts earlier. It actually makes the text make more sense to me.

[Speaker 2] (1:19:19 - 1:19:37)

That would make sense. Well, you think increased blood flow? Well, I mean, that makes sense.

Increased blood flow would be increased cognitive ability. Also, the flow of your body in tune with the energy or the frequency of the of the idea, all of your everything then tunes to your point, the tuning fork. It all makes sense to me.

[Speaker 1] (1:19:38 - 1:19:50)

Yeah. And those have so having those two together, the chanting practice in the morning and I do usually do Capoeira in the evenings. They start to like these exercises, start to talk to each other or they start to relate to each other.

Right.

[Speaker 2] (1:19:50 - 1:20:02)

And it's like really, really does the evening or does the morning kind of instruct your evening Capoeira routine? Like depending on your day, like when you wake up, like in the way you say they talk to each other, do they ever kind of in that way work?

[Speaker 1] (1:20:02 - 1:20:07)

No, not in that way. Although maybe I should pay extra attention to see if it is doing that.

[Speaker 2] (1:20:08 - 1:20:11)

But I wouldn't have asked that if it probably isn't a thing to pay attention to.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:13 - 1:20:30)

So not explicitly, but just in a sense that. Like the chanting practice is basically a stillness practice and the Capoeira practice is a movement practice, and it's like, that's true, they be still, you don't know, you can't know how to be still unless you know how to move, you know, you can't know how to move unless you know how to be right as contrast.

[Speaker 2] (1:20:31 - 1:20:31)

Right. That's true.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:31 - 1:20:32)

Contrast actually really.

[Speaker 2] (1:20:33 - 1:20:40)

So once again, it's almost like with movement or with with the lack of stillness or with stillness or something like in that way.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:40 - 1:20:43)

In the same way that we're talking about compassion and being with something.

[Speaker 2] (1:20:43 - 1:20:51)

Yeah. Integrating the two. Right.

The movement with stillness, because the stillness is more of the mind. It doesn't have to be a physical stillness. Right.

Exactly.

[Speaker 1] (1:20:52 - 1:21:12)

Exactly. But what chanting I'm in a seated lotus position, you know, and I'm on my little meditation seat and I'm just chanting and it and it really harmonizes my well, it it it activates the Vegas, the Vegas system and which slows down the fight or flight or freeze brain, which is nice, the limbic system.

[Speaker 2] (1:21:13 - 1:21:16)

So, yeah, it kind of slows everything down. Almost like a frame by frame kind of piece.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:17 - 1:21:18)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:21:19 - 1:21:37)

So you've done this a lot. I have to ask. I'm I'll ask if you've done any kind of alternative ways of getting to a different kind of consciousness outside of drugs.

Yeah, sure. Drugs. Let's go with drugs.

I don't whatever it is. I don't know what they are.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:37 - 1:21:39)

I love anything. Some people are cool.

[Speaker 2] (1:21:40 - 1:21:44)

OK, well, tell me about that. Is there something about that etymology or something? Yeah, there is.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:44 - 1:21:44)

Yes.

[Speaker 2] (1:21:45 - 1:21:46)

I will tell you about it because I want to hear this.

[Speaker 1] (1:21:47 - 1:22:01)

I was walking past the pharmacy, the pharmacy the other day, and I noticed that the logo above the pharmacy, it's a local pharmacy. It's not like a corporate pharmacy, but it was like a bowl and a thing to match mortar and pestle.

[Speaker 2] (1:22:01 - 1:22:02)

It's a mortar and pestle.

[Speaker 1] (1:22:02 - 1:22:20)

Exactly. Exactly. So the word comes from the French, meaning dried herbs.

That's all a drug is. It's a dried herb. That's what a drug is.

And of course, I have all this baggage that we've attached to it because of laws and, you know, crazy, crazy laws, insane laws. We could get into that if you want.

[Speaker 2] (1:22:20 - 1:22:21)

But all right.

[Speaker 1] (1:22:22 - 1:22:22)

We can.

[Speaker 2] (1:22:22 - 1:22:32)

Oh, we certainly can talk about anything, any of that. I mean, you're going to be at Freedom Fest. So we're definitely going to talk about having laws, laws being a little excessive and a little ridiculously weighted.

Right.

[Speaker 1] (1:22:33 - 1:22:36)

Yeah. So anyway. Yes, I microdose.

[Speaker 2] (1:22:36 - 1:22:38)

Drugs. Do you do them? No.

[Speaker 1] (1:22:38 - 1:23:00)

Yes. Yes, I microdose psilocybin. And the first the first psychoactive drug I took was LSD back in 2020, actually.

Oh, forgot about that. So in January 2020, which I'm sure contributed to my decision to eventually meditate. I did.

[Speaker 2] (1:23:01 - 1:23:09)

I want to hear about that experience, because that that sounds like an opening, right? It's a mind opening, not in mind, altering. So I'd like to hear your experience with that.

[Speaker 1] (1:23:10 - 1:23:38)

So LSD, I did it inside. I took it inside my house with a friend. And the first thing I noticed was the patterns of the carpet started moving.

And. The outcome of that whole experience is about a four hour, five hour trip. We put on music.

We had grapes and other fruits to nosh on. The outcome of that was actually an interest in fashion. So like prior to LSD, I didn't really.

[Speaker 2] (1:23:39 - 1:23:41)

Like when you say fashion, like.

[Speaker 1] (1:23:42 - 1:23:45)

Yeah, but like clothing, you know, like like.

[Speaker 2] (1:23:45 - 1:23:52)

Right, right. But I'm saying like, did you start seeing patterns in the carpet? Like when you talk about the carpet moving, it makes me think of that's where you would have gone in that kind of.

[Speaker 1] (1:23:52 - 1:23:57)

Yeah, the patterns, the patterns on the carpet started like moving. Right.

[Speaker 2] (1:23:57 - 1:24:03)

Like prior to like almost exposing themselves, like almost like emerging, like emerging out of the car.

[Speaker 1] (1:24:03 - 1:24:17)

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So after that, I started paying closer attention to geometry or to colors, to geometry.

And the way it manifested for me was an interesting fractals and all that kind of interesting stuff.

[Speaker 2] (1:24:17 - 1:24:17)

Right.

[Speaker 1] (1:24:17 - 1:24:25)

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. OK.

And then shortly thereafter, I think I did shrooms, but I don't remember the first time I did shrooms, actually.

[Speaker 2] (1:24:26 - 1:26:40)

I've only done cannabis. I'd like to do the ayahuasca and all that, but I've done in your meditation. Yeah.

So I back on the spirituality, if I may, because it's so fascinating because I am at 40 years old. I had like a midlife crisis and my bottom. My bottom was high, set higher than most people, like it's kind of like, you know, people are like, I'm broke, like people are like a four hundred dollar emergency away from being completely bankrupt, like everybody is.

Yeah, well, like I set mine at like a thousand, you know, say. So my bottom is higher than other people's bottoms. It's just I always put myself a fudge back.

Like, you know, people like a like the bottom is like a car accident where their leg snaps off or something like, oh, I had my awakening. I should get better. Well, I just didn't want to be here.

I just didn't feel right here. You know, it was weird. So I actually sought a neuro linguistic programmer.

So a person was actually in the military in Britain. He was like one of the Navy SEAL, the SAS guys, some real interesting guy. But he had like a degree in like quantum mechanics and applied mathematics.

So for me, I don't go talking to psychologists because there's no way I can relate to a psychologist or a psych. There's just not it's not happening. It's like you want to like, oh, you can switch.

I'd be switching every time. I'd be like, no, it's not going to fit in this way. So I walk.

I never met this guy. He was doing like an introductory thing. And it's NLP because it's different.

It's not psychology. So, you know, he's trying to get people in. So he's doing some introductory thing.

And I'm sitting in the waiting room and he calls me in his little room and there's a sofa and he's got his little chair. So I just walk in and he looks at me and he said the perfect thing. He cocked his head.

He goes, you're different. And it's like that click, you know, like the water, waterworks, everything. Well, it turns out I had I had a really bad car accident at 13 years old.

And I had a near death experience and I had an out of body experience. And that was a long time ago. So I'm here now, 40 years old, and I walk in this guy's office and he tells like I just had continually felt worse and worse over time to the point where I just was like, I got to talk to somebody about this.

You know?

[Speaker 1] (1:26:40 - 1:26:40)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:26:41 - 1:27:17)

And I it's I'm going to share it with you and I'll stop. I can I can delve into it more, but I've shared it before on a podcast. I don't want to bore people who who heard the same stupid story I say over and over again.

But basically, I went to see this person and I started getting help and he started doing a meditation with me and I had never done a meditation. Didn't understand it. He was doing a guided meditation.

You're on the beach and you pick up the sapphire and you look up in the sky. And no joke, I'm telling you what I experienced. I'm not telling I'm just going to tell you.

It was the Thursday before the shooting in South Carolina with Clement to Pinckney, and I saw.

[Speaker 1] (1:27:17 - 1:27:19)

Oh, wow. Whoa.

[Speaker 2] (1:27:20 - 1:27:43)

And when I tell you, you can look at me and tell you that I saw what I saw. I can't tell you that it's real, but I can tell you that I experienced this. So the direct was it was a black man in a suit behind a podium with like a microphone and he shakes to the right.

He looks to you like he's shaking somebody's hand to the right and he moves his hand to the left. And I see a flash. Because like it was in this vision, in this meditation.

[Speaker 1] (1:27:44 - 1:27:44)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:27:44 - 1:28:36)

And I look at I come out of it and I look at the guy and I go, I think I just saw Obama get shot because this is 2015, you know, and you make that associative, right? That's a conscious association. Black man in a suit.

I mean, I'm the president, for goodness sakes, at the time. Right. And he looked at me deadpan and he goes, that either will happen or it happened somewhere else.

And like, I was like distraught. I didn't understand it. I go home and I come back the next week because it's a Thursday, but it happened Wednesday.

And he actually shared it with me that I saw that like I didn't even make I didn't make any connection to anything. And he like showed me that. And then ever since then, like the floodgates open for me.

And I get this. I get really. I get fun ones, cute ones, and I get really awful ones.

So meditation for me.

[Speaker 1] (1:28:36 - 1:28:40)

They all come as a result of getting into the meditate into this particular type of meditation.

[Speaker 2] (1:28:41 - 1:30:05)

Yeah. So anytime I get relaxed or calm when I do a guided meditation, I don't go to the guided places. I go wherever they take me.

That's interesting. So, yeah. So it's like I've been fighting and my car accident was bad.

My dad is a man of faith and I love my dad. My dad is an amazing human being. He came to America at 19 from Germany alone.

He was born in 1940 in Hamburg. The guy lived a life. You know what I mean?

He had an he had a sibling that died of malnutrition. They walked 120 miles to Berlin from Hamburg. I mean, it's crazy.

I just I don't know how I'm here that I'm here is just a miracle in itself. And that we should all be grateful that we have the opportunities here that we have, like to be completely. Yeah.

And so I watch him and he's a man of faith, and I love that. I admire his faith. I don't agree with it in any way, but I admire it.

And when I had my car accident, I'm bedridden for nine weeks in a full body cast with a broken femur. And he's sitting there. Angel saved you.

Angel saved you. Angel saved you. And I'm like, well, who put me here?

I mean, it's like it's a simple question, right? I mean, that's what a 13 year old thinks, right? So that's where I started my quest.

And since then, I went on that and I became a theist, like anti-theist. And when I say anti-theist, it's really the idea, the way the human has bastardized the personal connection.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:05 - 1:30:08)

Is it the thingness specifically? Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:30:09 - 1:30:31)

Yeah. So so like I said, when I go into meditative states, it's actually challenging for me because I go off in places and I don't know that I don't know that they're real. It could just be my imagination.

I mean, I've done past life regressions. I've done all different things. I mean, I even I even went to an Esther Hicks thing with, you know, son of, you know, what is it?

Son of Abraham.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:31 - 1:30:33)

I don't know. I don't know.

[Speaker 2] (1:30:33 - 1:30:47)

No, it's not son of Abraham. She does channeling and like, like, you know, through stuff. So anyway, there's a whole discipline in that.

And so I was really curious about how how you connected all that and what you came with the East and the West and how you integrate those two.

[Speaker 1] (1:30:48 - 1:31:31)

Well, there's a great author named David Abrams, whose books I love. One is called Spell the Sensuous and the other is called Becoming Animal. I'm actually reading Becoming Animal right now.

And he in Becoming Animal talks about how he goes to the Andes Mountains and he like comes across all these shamans and the spiritual workers in the mountains and how they are so much more like embodied in there. Like we forget that as human beings, we are animals, like we're part of the animal kingdom. And he talks about how those shamans in those mountains understand that and the way they show up is like very much like in tune with the animal world.

I've also.

[Speaker 2] (1:31:32 - 1:31:34)

So they pay respect to like the environment and the.

[Speaker 1] (1:31:35 - 1:31:41)

And not just pay respect. They like are. Right.

Communicating with birds and, you know, stuff like that.

[Speaker 2] (1:31:41 - 1:31:45)

Oh, wow. OK, so they're completely integrated in this ecosystem in a way.

[Speaker 1] (1:31:45 - 1:32:25)

Yeah, which I find very fascinating. And I wonder if there's something in your lineage that's like related or rooted in a shamanistic tradition. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

So that's the first thing that came to mind when you were describing that that story in terms of integrating the East and the West. It's not really like a. I don't know, it's not a.

Explicit project I have, I just wake up every day and I do my chanting and I say thank you and I say I say blessings a lot more, I give thanks a lot more like regularly, which feels really nice.

[Speaker 2] (1:32:25 - 1:32:31)

That's a lot. There's two things, right? Like I'm once again, we go back to the thing.

Encouragement for others.

[Speaker 1] (1:32:31 - 1:32:31)

Yeah.

[Speaker 2] (1:32:32 - 1:33:19)

And gratefulness for yourself, just gratefulness for yourself. Right. Like if someone wants to do something other than obviously hurting themselves, you want to intervene.

But if someone wants to pursue a project, why? Why do you start with? But or no, why would you want to start that?

Like, why not be like, that sounds cool. Tell me more. Like, you know what I mean?

We could we could just shift so many. We could shift so many conversations if we come from that other side. You know, I've always thought about like negotiations.

You sit across the table. What if we sat on the same side of the table and looked at it from the same angle? That's the only way we're going to really understand it.

And we we tend to be so combative and proving our point that we're not willing to entertain another idea, you know, and beliefs become dangerous.

[Speaker 1] (1:33:19 - 1:33:22)

Well, it's because our sense of self is very insecure.

[Speaker 2] (1:33:23 - 1:33:43)

Right, exactly. So like you have a belief, you attack the belief, but it feels like an attack on you because you have that belief. So now not the you no longer talk about the content or the context of the belief.

You're talking about the person who's holding it. And that's never that jumps the gun to the actual problem. You know, we do that all the time.

You know, it seems to be the struggle.

[Speaker 1] (1:33:44 - 1:33:49)

It's another this is water problem because we do it all the time, but we don't realize that we're doing it right.

[Speaker 2] (1:33:49 - 1:34:12)

Right. Exactly. Yeah.

So I'm really grateful for the conversation. It's been an it's been an hour and a half. I hope it's blink for you and hope it's passed.

And I know I would love to sit on some conversations in the future if you ever have any, because I I'll I'll talk with you offline, obviously, once we hit end here. But yeah, I mean, it's been a pleasure. Is there anything else you'd love to share?

Any any anything else you'd like to talk about?

[Speaker 1] (1:34:12 - 1:34:29)

Just if people are interested in finding out more about theory of enchantment, they can go to theory of enchantment dot com. You can also follow me at Steve Aldry on all of the, you know, channels. If you would like Instagram, Twitter, so on and so forth.

And other than that, thank you for having me, Mark. It's been a great conversation.

[Speaker 2] (1:34:30 - 1:35:01)

Thank you so much. Yeah. What I'll do is I'll copy and paste everything in.

And I started doing transcripts. I'll just copy on a page and I'll I'll share that with you. Just for your reference, I have like a Freedom Fest page.

I'll have everybody on there. So if you want to see anybody else that's going to be there, you can just click on their page and listen to their conversations and whatnot and anything if you if you're interested. But thank you so much.

Once again, everyone go to Freedom Fest. Use the code conscious 50 for 50 dollars off the package. The current package.

Chloe's going to be there. Chloe, do you know what day you're going to be there? I know the schedule came out.

[Speaker 1] (1:35:02 - 1:35:06)

Oh, you might not know, but we can put it in. We can put it in the show notes.

[Speaker 2] (1:35:06 - 1:36:54)

No worries. I'll put it in. Yeah, I'll put it in there.

But everybody come to Vegas. It's going to be fun. We're going to be there.

I'm you talk about imbibing. I live in Arizona, so I'm driving. So guess who's going to be bringing a lot of imbibing?

Just so you know, so I will be I'll be taking care of a lot of my people, if you know what I mean. But I really look forward to meeting you in person because this has been for me, it's been enlightening because I'll be honest, I watched your conversation and they are extremely thoughtful and you put so much time into that. And, you know, like even that you spoke with, obviously, you know, Coleman and things like that.

And that's I'm I'm trying to reach up. I'm trying to elevate this. I'm asking people to bend down a lot to reach and talk to me.

I'm not anybody, you know. But I know I can have this conversations. And I know that I hope that we can always find some kind of way to contribute with each other.

And if I can lift myself up a little bit, people don't have to bend down as far. So and then hopefully going down to help lift somebody else up. So I'm still grateful that you reached down to to talk to someone like me and my old and I will be at that level that we will look back and go, oh, my gosh, this is where it all started or something like beautiful hero's journey.

Mark, there you go. Thank you so much. I'm so grateful for the conversation.

We'll talk offline. And thank you again, everybody. Have a great day.

Thank you so much to Chloe for joining me on Knocked Conscious.