R.I.P. Jess Garcia – Chris and Mark have a conversation about Michael Jackson Square One Documentary with two (2) very special guests. Jess Garcia was both Marketing Director & Research Assistant for Square One. Our other guest? None other than Taj Jackson himself! They were so gracious in sharing their time and stories with us. You can find all of the information we discussed in the links below.
Square One on Amazon Prime USA:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B0887TPJ6Q/
Square One on Amazon Germany / Austria:
https://www.amazon.de/gp/video/detail/B087L14SXS/
Square One on Amazon Prime UK:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/detail/B0887T4PDJ/
Square One on Amazon Prime (all other countries):
https://www.primevideo.com/detail/0PQIRTK4KZKXJ9HIADDJVDE6FF/
Corey Feldman’s “My Truth, the rape of 2 Coreys”: www.mytruthdoc.com
Taj Jackson’s “The Truth Runs Marathons” GoFundMe:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/thetruthrunsmarathons
Taj Jackson: www.twitter.com/tajjackson03
Jess Garcia: www.twitter.com/hatethejess
Intro Music: “Blue Scorpion” Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Outro Music: “Neolith” Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Transcript:
(0:16) Hey everybody, and welcome to a special episode. It’s our square one episode of Knocked Conscious. (0:26) We have two very special guests with us, but before we introduce them, I’m very excited (0:31) because I want to hear the true stories of everything.But before we introduce them, (0:35) I wanted to share something I said a couple months ago. It was after watching Leaving Neverland. (0:42) And obviously, square one is getting a lot of buzz on Twitter, debunking a lot of what (0:47) Leaving Neverland was.So what I’m going to do is I’m going to play that clip first. And (0:52) then I’m going to talk about how I got to watch square one and then my change of heart (0:57) through a Facebook post. And then we’ll introduce our special guests.So here’s the recording (1:02) of the podcast that I did. It was in the Catholic Church interview. But here is what I said.(1:12) Late last year, I watched an HBO special called Leaving Neverland. Had similar content. It (1:23) was two episodes.It was like two episodes. They were long, though. I think I watched (1:26) them one in four hours.So I think I watched one and watched the other. I was with my girlfriend. (1:34) And I was impotent.Shut up. I could not perform. No, I couldn’t perform for a couple days.(1:43) No joke. I looked at her. I’m like, I am so disgusted.It just all felt dirty. I know (1:51) it sounds fucked up, but you know, that’s it all felt dirty. So let me just say since (1:57) then it’s my choice.This is why this is why I don’t understand. You can get out. You have (2:07) choice you the one you’re in fucking America.The one two things you have are speech and (2:13) choice and guns. But look, you have fucking choice. I have not listened to an adult Michael (2:24) Jackson song since that since that documentary.All right. So that’s what my feeling was (2:32) about how I felt about things in this topic after watching Leave a Neverland. And it was (2:39) pretty nasty.So I’d like to introduce our first guest. Her name is Jess Garcia. Jess, (2:45) are you there? I’m here.Hi. Hi. How are you? I’m doing well.How are you? We’re doing awesome. (2:51) Thank you so much for coming on here. And it is absolutely because of you that we’re (2:56) even sitting here because you and I connected somehow on Twitter.Yes. How did this happen? (3:03) You found me somehow. And I had 30 followers at the time.So I don’t know how you even (3:07) found me. I’m a podcast nerd. And so I was following podcasts.And you guys, you DM to me (3:14) and asked me to check out an episode. I was like, Okay, cool. We’ll check out this documentary (3:19) called square one on Amazon Prime.We’ll do a trade. These clear out the same length and time. (3:23) And I guess that’s how it happened.That’s, that’s exactly how I remember. It’s it’s funny, (3:29) you followed me and I wanted to thank you for following. And I we like I said, we did one on, (3:34) this is a very personal topic for me as well.And this was just a really close topic. I had (3:39) asked you to watch that on the Catholic Church. And you had asked me to watch square one.And (3:43) I thought square one without reading anything about it, I thought it was going to be like (3:47) leaving Neverland 2.0. I thought it was just going to be a pile on. So I’m really glad that you had (3:51) encouraged me to do it. So I read I watched the documentary.And I’m going to read my Facebook (3:57) post. And then we’re going to introduce our second special guest. And we’ll, we’ll talk (4:02) about the documentary and we’ll have some questions.Great. So on Facebook, right after (4:08) watching square one, it was really late at night, I wrote right or wrong. I’m a person who has an (4:13) opinion about almost every subject.Because I am so bold in my stances, it’s vital that I (4:18) continually question my own thoughts, opinions and ideas. After watching leaving Neverland, which is (4:23) an emotionally driven story on HBO, I felt that there was little reasonable doubt about Michael (4:29) Jackson’s guilt. My response that I stopped listening to any adult Michael Jackson songs.I (4:35) listened to the music he created when he was a child as I felt he was victimized in his youth. As (4:39) an adult, he had the ability to choose whether you’d hurt someone or not. So I decided that I would (4:43) not support any of his adult accomplishments.Last night, someone had asked me to watch square one (4:50) on Amazon video. I saw it advertised but was not interested in hearing any more about MJ mainly (4:55) because I’m physically disgusted by child abuse. After watching square one, it is my updated (5:00) opinion that if I were on the criminal jury regarding MJ, I would have absolute reasonable (5:05) doubt of his guilt and would therefore declare him not guilty of any alleged charges.That said, I (5:12) have resumed my appreciation for adult MJ songs. Admittedly, it was challenging to avoid any of his (5:17) music in the first place as I admired his music so much. I even bought the microphones that he used (5:22) to record Thriller to use on my podcast.Not his actual mic, but the ones based off of his. I do (5:31) leave myself open to changing my mind again if faced with compelling evidence to the contrary. (5:35) But in my mind, the defense team of MJ has provided reasonable doubt in my mind regarding a (5:40) criminal verdict.In addition, the criminal jury, there was only one criminal case found him not (5:45) guilty on all 14 counts. I write this as proof that we have the responsibility to question (5:50) ourselves as much as we question each other. Perhaps we can bridge more gaps with introspection (5:55) rather than attacks on others.I sure learned a lot this week. So there’s my Facebook post. I’m (6:01) going to shut up now because I talk too much.But Jess, thank you so much for bringing this to me. (6:06) And now I’d like to introduce our other special guest. Taj, tell us a little bit about yourself.(6:15) I’m Taj Jackson. I’m the son of Tito Jackson and the nephew of Michael Jackson. And I’m honored to (6:21) be on this podcast.(6:23) Well, thank you so much for coming. (6:25) Yeah, thanks. (6:26) We’re so great.We’re so great to have you in. And it was very interesting because our (6:30) conversation with Jess escalated when I was speaking with her. And she she was so passionate (6:35) about this that I wanted to just ask, hey, do you want to come on the show? And I didn’t even know.(6:41) She was very excited to do it. And she reached out to you without without us knowing. So we’re (6:46) excited to have you.(6:46) Yeah, I said, like, I just want to maybe someone else who might know a little bit more about it. (6:50) And he goes, Yeah, just get your associate or whatever. And then I was like, it’s Taj.(6:55) It’s Taj. Yeah, I’ll be honest. I mean, the thing is, you know, don’t get me wrong.I’m a (7:01) Michael Jackson fan. But what’s more important here is justice. (7:05) Yes, 100%.(7:06) So my focus on this part is about this particular instance and clearing, clearing, you know, (7:15) Michael’s name as best as you can and everything. Yeah. So so either of you would like to start on (7:21) how how did you get involved with Danny Wu? Or how did the whole process to the to the to the (7:26) documentary start? (7:27) Well, I can start with myself first, since I kind of became, quote, unquote, the spokesperson, (7:35) which I have everything, which if anyone knew me beforehand, if you would have picked, you know, (7:42) probably that one of the shyest members of the family of the Jackson family, I’d probably be on (7:46) the top of the list, me and Brandi Jackson, who also did her rounds and, you know, talked and (7:51) stuff like that.And it was just, as you said, I hate injustice. And it was something that having (7:59) spent 1000s and 1000s of hours with my uncle ever since I was from a baby him holding me to probably (8:06) the last, you know, three months before he passed, I was always close to him. And as someone that had (8:13) been sexually abused on my mom’s side of the family, from an uncle, I see things differently.I (8:18) think I see things through the lens of a sexual abuse victim. And I also see when, you know, things (8:24) don’t add up as well. So I felt like, yes, I, you know, people can claim I’m biased because I’m a family (8:30) member.But at the same time, if I thought that my uncle was even a point point point 0% chance of him being, (8:38) you know, guilty of it, I wouldn’t be supporting him. I wouldn’t waste my time. I would be quiet, you know, (8:43) and that was one of the things but I ended up, you know, going into the lion’s den because I started in the (8:50) US, you know, doing interviews, whoever would listen, basically, because it was literally, literally felt (8:55) like an assassination attempt on his on his, his, I guess his legacy, basically.And we never even knew that (9:05) Leaving Neverland was coming out. They never even approached us. They never gave us the chance to combat (9:10) it.In a way, it was like, okay, it got rushed into Sundance. Here it is. And in the audience was all these (9:18) journalists and sexual abuse survivors.So it was the deck was stacked against us from the beginning. And all (9:25) that time I was like, Can I at least can the family see it so we know what we’re dealing with? You know, who are (9:30) the because at that time, we didn’t know who the two, quote unquote, accusers were. And I am I got knew that one (9:38) of them was Wade, but they weren’t saying anything at that point.And then once I heard that one of them was (9:42) Wade, I knew, okay, I know what this is now. But Leaving Neverland was designed pretty much to be, you know, (9:52) just like horror movies. You know, there’s something called torture porn in horror movies, like those kind of (9:58) movies, like Saw, and the ones that Eli Roth does.And they’re designed to really make you feel this nasty (10:04) emotion, that’s like gut-wrenching emotion. And that’s what to me what Leaving Neverland was, especially the (10:10) wording that they used in terms of how they describe stuff. You, you know, if you don’t know Michael Jackson, or if (10:16) you don’t, you know, weren’t associated with them, that’s the reaction you’re supposed to have, because you’re (10:20) hearing these people talk about the disgusting act.And you’re, of course, you want to take a shower after and (10:26) you’re, you know, you, you know, or you can’t perform, you know, in that way, because it’s like, it really affects (10:32) you mentally in that way. But that was what it was designed to do. And, you know, it was a very heavily organized (10:39) that way, almost like an onslaught.But once you actually take a step back and actually listen to what they’re (10:46) saying, you see that they contradict themselves from their own depositions under court. And they also, they, their (10:52) stories change over time, and not change in a, in a way that, oh, memories, you know, naturally will evolve. No, they (11:00) change in terms of circumstance, and when it benefits them.And so we’ll talk more about that later. But I just became (11:06) someone that was thrust into the spotlight, you know, having had a music career with 3T. And, you know, in that, I (11:13) was always like the George Harrison of the group.I was never the one that wanted to, never, I always said my (11:18) brother, (11:19) Did you go to India? (11:20) You know, that’s one, I mean, my name’s Taj, but that’s one of the places I’ve always wanted to go. But I always, I (11:27) never liked the spotlight completely on me. I was like, OK, that’s for my brothers, you know, let them have it.I’ll (11:35) With this, it just, it irritated me so much, especially since I knew Wade. I was friends with Wade. I helped Wade get (11:41) into the memorial, my uncle’s memorial.I helped, you know, Wade get to see the kids afterwards and all that stuff. So I (11:50) felt really not only betrayed, like, kind of like an idiot, in a way, and it like duped. And then once I started finding (11:59) out why he was doing that, and the sequence of events, which we’ll go over to over as well, it’s just like, it really (12:06) became apparently clear that this guy was just, he was like, a disgruntled worker that wanted to just get revenge on, you (12:14) know, on, I don’t want to say my uncle, because in his mind, he’s probably thinking Michael’s dead.So it’s not (12:19) affecting him. You know, I’m just going after the money. But it was just, yeah, so that’s how I kind of, you know, I went (12:26) to the UK kind of had to, and I don’t like to use the word defend my uncle.I stood up for my uncle, because he’s no (12:33) longer here. He’s not here to defend himself. (12:36) Yeah, it’s tough, because, I mean, the instantaneous defensiveness, it’s going to come through because being a family (12:42) member makes it challenging.(12:44) It makes it challenging in that way. And people are like, you know, people always question, oh, well, that they’re supposed (12:48) to do that their family, you know, they have investment in it. And it’s like, no, I’m doing what is right.And what, you (12:54) know, if you know someone, just like if it was someone else’s family member, if it was your family member, and you knew (13:00) that they weren’t, they weren’t capable of that, or they did not do that, and you have evidence of it, and and facts of (13:06) it, you would support it too. You would be like, I’m going to scream as loud as I can, you know, to, to right this (13:11) wrong. But the media basically, which is why I’m so appreciative when I’m when I go on any kind of podcast or any kind (13:19) of YouTube kind of thing, or just a national network, is just them hearing my story, hearing, hearing who my uncle (13:28) truly was, or why Leaving Neverland, you know, is the lie that it is.And because we were shut out, we literally were (13:36) shut out for a good portion of it, of a lot of the mainstream media would not pick up the story, or the falsehoods of (13:43) Leaving Neverland, because of the timing of the Me Too movement, and the Time’s Up movement, it was, you can’t question (13:49) victims. (13:51) Right. Well, that too, plus they double down, right? We’re, I mean, I, you and I are a year apart.Chris is about two, two (13:58) years older than I am. So we’re within a three year range of each other. And I was an adult 2021, when the trials were (14:05) going on.So I’m very familiar with how, or the information that was fed us, right? Oh, yeah. And the one thing about this (14:14) was really frustrating to me is, you know, you’ve got the, you know, NBC, ABC, CBS, all these big affiliates, you know, just (14:21) burying your uncle. Yes.And now square one is getting such attention outside of the mainstream media, they’re going to (14:30) come back to you. And we need not to give them that satisfaction of, of cashing in on both ends of it. You know, they’re, (14:37) they’re gonna, they vilified them.And now they’re gonna, you know, there’s going to be a point here, because square one is (14:41) taking off like crazy, which it should. Yeah, it should. And with Michael’s birthday upcoming, I mean, it’s going to get this (14:48) global attention again.(14:50) Yes. And it’s and it should because it, you know, it was done extremely well. And I always joke about it.It was not only (14:57) fact checked by, you know, people that were critical of it, but it was fact checked by the fans. Like the fans don’t want (15:03) misinformation out there, you know, because it gives us a bad name at the same time. And so it was, you know, it was (15:09) double.It was doubly critical. I don’t want to say criticized. It was doubly, you know, we’re doubly critical about it.(15:16) Absolutely. Yeah. And and be and like you said, I’m sorry, for whatever you went through with your sexual abuse.But as from (15:24) victim of sexual abuse, sometimes we want to go on a witch hunt, right? Yeah. So so when you have a victim of sexual abuse (15:30) coming and saying, I don’t see this as what I experienced that holds even more, you know, it’s got more teeth to it, it (15:39) actually holds them a water. (15:41) And that’s why I felt I had to be the one out of everyone in the family, because I have I was in a unique situation.And that way (15:48) where they can use the words, Oh, well, you don’t know what it’s like. No, I do know what it’s like. And it was someone on (15:54) on my mom’s side of the family, who did this to me.And so I know what true victims go through. And that’s why I was (16:01) sympathetic. That’s why I, if you noticed, and I mean, people can go back to my old tweets, I never attacked, you know, me (16:09) too, or time’s up.I always just said, Hey, can we talk? Or can you listen to my side of the story? Because I didn’t want to (16:15) sabotage true victims and what they’re going through, because it does take courage to come out and say something. But at the (16:22) same time, I’ve lived this life, you know, for 40 something years of my uncle being a target. And I’m not just saying (16:30) with, you know, with fake allegations for child molestation.But, you know, we’re talking paternity, you know, fake (16:36) paternity cases, you know, where people would say that they were married to him, or people said, Oh, he stole my song. I (16:43) mean, he was constantly getting, you know, in court for things that I grew up watching and going, Okay, you know, there’s a (16:51) lady named Billie Jean who claims that she was married to him, or blah, blah, blah, or this person says they’re Michael (16:57) Jackson’s kid. So it’s not in our world, it’s not anything uncommon, you know, but to other people, it’s like, Oh, well, (17:05) allegations don’t, you know, fake allegations don’t really exist.Well, they exist in my world plenty. (17:10) I can only imagine when you’re I mean, your, your uncle was the king of pop, where else do you go from there? I mean, you’re, (17:18) you’re the top mountain, everybody’s gonna try to take a piece, right? (17:20) Well, you look at every famous person in the world, and they have fake allegations, you know, in some way, and one side, if (17:28) it’s political, you know, will lean towards that the other side will try and defend that. And so it’s just it’s just how it is, (17:35) because you’re an easy target.(17:38) I agree 100%. So I definitely want to get into square one. Taj, are we okay if we talk with Jess about Oh, yes, you know, (17:46) Jess, do me a favor, could you’re in the credits of square one in multiple places.Can you give us your credentials, your (17:53) connection with Danny and how you like, what’s your backstory and how you got into this? (17:58) Well, um, I am a true crime nerd, I kind of mentioned podcasts earlier, and I just growing up, I had always assumed that (18:08) Michael Jackson had did something, but I never wanted to look into it. So I was really liked his artistry. So at one (18:16) point, I was like, I’m just gonna grow up, just face it, and see what he did once and for all.And like, that was pretty (18:22) devastating experience. Because I was like, there’s no way that he went through all this shit. And he didn’t do anything.I (18:28) felt horrible. I felt so bad, because the more and more you look, the more innocent he becomes. So after leaving Neverland (18:36) came out at this point, I already knew he was totally innocent.And I had already known about Wade and James because I’ve (18:42) done this research. And so I had a meltdown. When that was airing, I couldn’t believe that they were taking away voices of (18:49) actual victims, including myself.And I just kind of went on the internet and try to find everything I could find. And then I (18:57) found Danny Wu’s YouTube channel, and he had a few videos. They were awesome.And then I had seen that he was going to be (19:07) interviewing someone that knew the first accuser. And so like, I had made a connection with someone else for him to (19:16) potentially interview, but it didn’t work out. But we just stayed in touch.I sent him information here and there. And he and (19:26) Shania, I don’t know if it’s Shania or Shania Kumar, they’re the two people that put it together. They brought me on board and we (19:35) just helped out more with the Amazon version.But yeah, I mean, I’m just I’m so so grateful to both of them to be involved with the (19:44) project. But yeah, I don’t know. Sorry.(19:48) No, that’s perfect. So so yeah, so you are you familiar with? I mean, are you in the world of like child sexual abuse or anything? Is (19:58) that something near and dear to your heart as well? (20:01) Yeah, um, I was four and I had someone I was married to my aunt. That’s what I refer to him as.And I was gonna wait till he died to (20:15) tell anyone because I didn’t want to tear the family apart. I knew if I had told anyone when I was four, like my dad would probably be (20:21) behind bars for murdering him. So when Libby Neverland came out, I had a meltdown.I got drunk. And I just like went on (20:29) Facebook Messenger and told all my aunts. What’s the most surprising thing to me is that no one was surprised.And it turns out (20:36) that two other cousins of mine were also victims of his so he’s no longer in our family. But (20:43) I’m really sorry to hear that. Just thanks.Um, yeah. I mean, and that’s the thing. Both of you come from this world and see the (20:53) darkness and evil that it is.But you also realize that, you know, going after going on a wild or on a witch hunt, or after people who (21:01) are falsely accused is just as detrimental to the cause, as it is finding the true justice, right? (21:08) 100% and and we have a history of that, you know, in this country of, I guess, false accusations or the wrong person behind bars in (21:19) that way. Just because, you know, I don’t even want to say it’s satisfying. It’s just, you know, sometimes you just want justice for (21:27) something.And in that way. And so my whole thing with leaving everyone was like, you know, take a deep breath. And let’s, you know, and (21:34) because it was such a gut punch, in a way that it was designed that way, that you really there was no air for any other kind of like (21:42) conversation.But once now with some distance, which I think was perfect with square one, there’s now some distance and time in between (21:50) that people can start, you know, at least take accepting, you know, another conversation, another side to something. So it was, it was (21:59) perfect timing. But also, you know, it was led with facts, you know, and, and, and that always helps to and facts and, and knowledge, (22:08) basically.And as opposed to, you know, and I, the thing was just leaving Neverland, the, you know, the problem that I have with it (22:17) mainly, is they don’t even care if it was true or not, like, you know, in terms of with the whole Brett Barnes situation where, you (22:25) know, he was trying to sue to get himself his name taken out of the movie, because he’s like, that never happened to me. And I strongly (22:31) defend Michael, what they gave him the, you know, the legal middle finger and said, Well, we don’t care. (22:37) You know, we’re using it anyway.And so they took his privacy, this is a person that’s, you know, didn’t even want to be named in (22:45) anything. And now, and they just spread him all over the world in that way, implying that he had been sexually abused by Michael (22:52) Jackson, because it fit their narrative. And so that’s the kind of stuff that frustrates me is that they really don’t care.It was all (22:59) about money. And I said that in the beginning, when people didn’t believe that they were suing the estate before this came out. And, you (23:06) know, they made it this crusade, like, Oh, no, we care about victims.And we’re going to be, you know, forefront people for the (23:12) victims. Well, once their interview started contradicting, and they realized that it could hurt their lawsuit, they were mighty (23:20) quiet, they basically shut up. And they haven’t been, you know, been interviewed since because they know it’s going to hurt (23:27) their legal chances of winning money.So their hearts not even in the right place in that. (23:32) Yeah. It’s interesting.There’s one thing that stuck out to me about leaving Neverland. In that, you know, like I said, it was so (23:41) driven emotionally to make you kind of feel dirty about Michael Jackson. That’s just what it felt like.Oh, 100%. What I think it was (23:49) Wade’s Wade said he just wanted it to be on the record. And I looked at my girlfriend who was watching with me.I said, Why is he (23:56) suing for $12 million? Why not sue for $1? And like a symbolic? Yeah, we like I said, Chris, Chris had a best friend who was a (24:05) victim of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. And he just wanted it on the record. They kept throwing money and money after him.And (24:13) it got up to $2 million where the where the lawyer said, Okay, and he’s like, I want it on record, you know, sue for $1 if (24:23) that’s if you’re you know, you have a career, sue for $1 and let you know, you’ll you’ll write a book and you’ll make so much money (24:29) off the back end. But I didn’t understand why the monetary number was so high. If if all he wanted was justice.That’s the one thing (24:37) that stuck out to me. (24:39) I’m Mark, you said 12 million. It’s far more than that they’re suing for.(24:43) Yeah, it’s around 100 something. Oh, holy crap. Yeah.Okay. I thought I thought in the leaving Neverland, there was like a $12 (24:50) million suit or something. I could be wrong.Not with Wade. No. Okay.Yeah. Please for I it’s been I only watched that shit (24:58) show once. So (25:00) yeah, you know, for me, it was really hard to like, I haven’t watched it fully.I’ve watched clips of it because I literally want to (25:07) take my shoe off and throw it at the screen just because, you know, there’s certain things I see that other people probably (25:13) wouldn’t even see just knowing Wade so well. But also just being a victim myself, like no parent in their right mind. When they’re (25:22) reminiscing about, you know, Michael Jackson, are they smiling or happy? You know, this is someone that molested their kid.Why is (25:29) you know, Stephanie, you know, giggling and happy and smiling about, you know, Michael Jackson stuff like that’s a monster to her. (25:38) One point she says that she’s like, he doesn’t know this, but I would like to listen in and then sneak away. What mother would do that if (25:46) she knew that her son was being sexually abused behind that door? Why would she be laughing about that? That makes no sense.(25:52) Yeah. And that’s the thing. And Wade’s, you know, mom, same thing.It’s like, those kind of things. You know, as a parent, you’re (25:59) thinking of it and you look back and you’re like, he tricked us. He made us feel like a family.He made it. You know, you’re you (26:04) should have anger inside of you, not happiness, not joy. But what they did was very smart.Dan Reed, he basically he he told some (26:14) truth in the beginning, which is how they met, you know, Michael Jackson. So you you as a viewer, you you trust these people. You’re (26:21) like, OK, there’s genuine emotion here.They met Michael Jackson. OK, I get it. I trust them because their story checks out and I (26:28) can see that they’re happy.And then they switch it on you. And you don’t even know that they switched it on you. And that’s the (26:33) trick.That’s a trickery that they did. But it’s like so in a way it was ingenious. But I mean, I saw right through it because I (26:41) know them.I mean, I know Wade very well. And James, I never in interviews would talk about because I don’t know him. I never (26:50) knew him.So I never felt comfortable talking about James. But then when the train station lie hit, I felt very comfortable (26:57) about talking about James in that way, because he you know, there’s a bunch of other lies that he had told. And so I was just like, (27:04) OK, now I know enough that I know he’s lying as well.(27:08) Todd, this is Chris. I’m the quiet one. So my question for you at this point is, are would you agree that leaving Neverland was (27:17) basically all for ratings? (27:20) I think it was all for I would hope it was all for ratings.You know, the thing is, is that it for me, it was a hit piece. It literally (27:27) was. You know, it had big muscle behind it, had HBO behind it in the States.HBO at the time, if you don’t remember, it was in its (27:37) last season of Game of Thrones. And so no, no network, no trade, you know, whether it’s Hollywood Reporter or Daily Variety (27:46) wanted to go against HBO because there goes their access to Game of Thrones, you know. So everyone was on HBO’s bidding.I mean, we (27:54) know what that last season ended up being. But at that point, it hadn’t come out yet. And so they really were scared to go against (28:01) the big HBO.So they, everyone was tweeting about HBO, and it got all the support. And then they got Oprah on board to sell it, you (28:09) know, as well. And so it was really a hit piece in a way designed to destroy a legacy.So yes, it was for ratings. But every time (28:18) they use my uncle’s name, it’s usually for ratings. It’s like, they don’t want anything positive.You know, they won’t talk (28:23) about anything positive. They’ll always talk about, you know, the scandals or stuff like that, that, you know, once you look (28:31) beyond, you’ll see that they’re, they have no weight to them. (28:35) Okay, gotcha.As, as I suspected. (28:39) Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, this whole, I think that what’s more disheartening. I can’t even say the word correctly.(28:46) Disheartening. (28:47) Yeah. (28:47) Disheartening? (28:47) Yeah, it was a lot longer than I thought it was, was that, you know, when you have reputable networks that now because of the (28:58) whole TMZ blog kind of atmosphere, they have to keep up, they have to get the clicks as well.So now they’re starting to do (29:06) things that, you know, we used to think, oh, they were straight and narrow. And now no, now they will, you know, they will (29:13) imply stuff or they’ll get, they’ll put a heading, headline in there to grab attention that’s not true. And so it really, I (29:20) always knew the media was like that, you know, because I saw that in 2005 with my uncle, you know, I lived at Neverland when the (29:27) trial happened.And I would literally have the TV on flipping through channels and see all the stuff about the testimony. And (29:36) then Tom Mesereau, which who was my uncle’s lawyer, would come back to Neverland with my uncle. And I would ask Tom privately, (29:44) I’d be like, how did it go today? And he’d be like, Oh, my gosh, it went so well.This person got caught in a lie. And this (29:50) person got caught in a lie. This person, you know, admitted da da da.And then I would be like, I don’t see any of that on TV. (29:56) So either (29:56) It was not on television. (29:58) Oh, it wasn’t at all.And I was like, so either he’s overly confident, and just trying to tell me something that I want to hear, or (30:04) they’re just lying out of their teeth. And I switched through every channel, trying to get a fair assessment. And there just (30:11) wasn’t any.And so I don’t blame the public. I really don’t. Because at the end of the day, they only saw one side to the point (30:18) where they’re like, yeah, he did it.Because we got told that he did it. We got told about this story about, you know, this (30:25) maid saw him in the shower, you know, with with a boy, but then that maid gets on the stand and Tom cross examines her. And (30:33) she’s like, Oh, maybe it wasn’t, you know, maybe it was just Michael, maybe it wasn’t the boy, you know, and it’s like, it’s (30:38) like, but they don’t report that they just told, Oh, Michael found in the shower with a boy, you know, so those kind of (30:44) things, you know, really irritate me, because it’s like, you know, they don’t stay stuck around for all the gossip, but not (30:51) for the truth.And that’s what we’re seeing with, you know, this whole Leaving Neverland. It’s like the story has been (30:56) told. I’ve been told that by media, oh, we already talked about Leaving Neverland.We don’t need your side of the story (31:03) anymore. We got all we can out of it. And I’m like, that’s not how it should work.You know, if there’s some, if you, you (31:10) should revise it, if you found out there’s lies in there, like the train station and the Grand Canyon, and a particular (31:16) dinner that I was physically at, that they claimed, Wade claims that he went to a dinner before his testimony the day (31:28) before his testimony, and saw my uncle and how he interacted with his daughter Paris. And he was like, really like out of it and (31:36) whatever. And that’s when Wade decided he had to lie and protect his friend.And I’m like, that dinner happened after his (31:43) testimony. And I said that on Twitter. And sure enough, it got cut out of the UK version.So it’s like, they’re not even they’re (31:54) lying. And then when they get caught, they make edits. And this, the original HBO thing, it’s a lot shorter now than it was when (32:02) it first got aired, because there’s all these lies that have been cut out of it.And so I think that’s very dishonest. And (32:11) it’s in I’m very upset at the media for not highlighting that. (32:16) So the media is basically catering to the masses for ratings.Yes, like they and which they’re still doing today. Which which (32:28) just with different subjects, which they’ve always done. They’ve always been horrible.And your point about TMZ and how they’ve (32:37) changed the world. And now HBO is a new TMZ. That’s a that’s a what a great point.I mean, that’s, it’s really, it’s sad, but so so (32:47) accurate. (32:48) And it’s, you know, someone that is all about justice, it bothers me because there’s nowhere that you I mean, I’m, you’re, you’re (32:56) starting to have to go to like places like YouTube and podcasts, you know, to get the truth. And that’s, you know, I’m happy that (33:03) they exist.And that’s exactly what we did. You know, when Leaving Neverland came out, it was like, Oh, a lot of the YouTube and (33:10) podcast people, you know, would hear our side of the story. And that’s kind of how I met Danny was Danny.Basically, he’s like, (33:19) would you and Brandy be willing to be interviewed by me? And I didn’t know this guy at all. You know, I didn’t even really care (33:26) what his numbers were anything. I was just like, if he’s willing to hear my side of the story, then I’m willing to, you know, be (33:33) there for it.And so, and that’s how I met Danny. And yeah. (33:38) And that’s kind of our philosophy on it as well is we’ve had some guests on that speak some pretty radical things.But that’s not (33:45) that’s not our job to keep someone from expressing their beliefs or their thoughts. Exactly. You know, so we’re always open to (33:54) having people over.And what we’re finding is, back in the day, there was no internet, there was no decentralized point of (34:00) information like there is now, you had two or three news organizations, all getting their source from the same place and feeding it (34:07) to us like just sheep, right? They’re just spoon feeding us all day. Now we’re finding that we’re information can be (34:13) decentralized. So it’s not always CNN and NBC and Fox or whoever that have this information.The challenge with that, though, (34:21) like to your point is with me too. And with these types of cases, you get some people who cling on to that, right? Because they (34:27) want attention or something. So you just have to be more vigilant about the data that you get.But we’re so blessed now to have (34:34) these different modes of information. (34:37) And yes, and and and that’s why I hope to amplify amplify those, you know, because it really had been, it was really (34:45) frustrating when, you know, places that I knew had millions and millions of viewers, they would not allow me or Brandy to be on (34:53) their channel, you know, telling another side of the story. It was almost like, you can’t question these guys, you know, you (35:00) can’t, this is the narrative, and we’re going with it.So, you know, just shut up. And, and so it kind of forced us and in a good (35:07) way, too, because it came, it became, at the same time, more organic and homegrown in that way, in terms of who we got to talk to (35:14) and everything like that. And it was a, you know, almost like a grassroots kind of thing in terms of this change that happened from (35:23) the combativeness of leaving Neverland.(35:26) Yeah. (35:26) Wasn’t there an interview, Taj, that you were supposed to do, but it didn’t work out or something like that? (35:31) Yes. Good Morning America.Basically, in the afternoon, I was just driving around killing time. And once it was supposed to be me (35:41) and Brandy, and they received a call from, and I’m not going to name names, because but you can probably assume from someone very (35:49) high up, you know, a talk show host very high up that basically from their office that said that killed our interview. And I just (35:58) That is unbelievable.(36:00) Well, it, you know, it just showed me that they weren’t interested in the truth. They’re just, you know, it was about selling a (36:09) story in that way. And that frustrated me more than anything, because it was like, I was looking forward to it.I had been on Good (36:16) Morning America back in the day with 3T. And it was a huge opportunity and stuff like that. And Brandy, who has been hidden from the (36:24) media in that way, because she kills Wade’s narrative about, you know, Wade dating my uncle, which is ridiculous, because Brandy (36:32) dated Wade for over seven years, during the teenage years, from puppy love all the way up, but you (36:39) I didn’t even know that.So thank you for sharing. Yeah, I’ll be honest, I, I’m really can. My, my concern is justice and truth.And (36:49) trust me, as big a fan as I am, I, I’m not, you know, in the world, like some fans are. So that’s, that’s amazing me. So Wade and (36:58) Brandy dated for seven years, (37:00) over seven years, I told her, I told her to say seven years, because I didn’t want it to be like, if it was if it was seven and a (37:07) half years, or eight years, I didn’t want to be accused of over exaggerating.(37:10) Right. And you don’t want to, you don’t want to be caught like, Oh, seven and a half. It’s like, Oh, it’s only seven.So they’re (37:15) gonna get young semantics, right? (37:16) Exactly. But, yeah. (37:19) Tosh, who, how did they meet? (37:21) Yeah, I was just about to get to that.So Wade, you know, Wade did a lot of stuff with like LA gear, the promotion with my (37:28) uncle, and so did Brandy. And so Wade developed a crush on Brandy, and asked my uncle if he could invite Brandy to (37:36) Neverland, so that they could get to know each other. So Brandy and Wade met through my uncle, basically, my uncle set them (37:42) up, which is completely the different narrative of how Michael was jealous of girls, you know, talking to his quote, unquote, (37:50) you know, victims and all that stuff.It’s baloney. And Wade and Brandy dated all the way up to I call it the well, (37:58) I don’t even know, you probably don’t even know the story. (38:01) I don’t.Look, this is your time. I love storytime. We actually have like a special thing for storytime.Can we play it? Hold (38:09) on. We’ve got it for you. Sure.Okay, we’re gonna play it now. It’s time for storytime, ladies and gentlemen. (38:20) All right, go for it.Go for it, Tosh. (38:22) Well, I was just saying that, you know, Wade dated Brandy all throughout his teenage years, and all that stuff. And it’s (38:29) known.That’s why he’s never, he can’t question Brandy, and neither can his friends, you know, because they know it’s (38:34) the truth that Brandy and him dated for all that time. But not only that, Wade, the reason Brandy and Wade broke up is (38:41) because Brandy, Wade cheated on Brandy with a famous singer. And this famous singer, I mean, you can say Jess, I won’t (38:50) say it.But this famous singer, (38:52) we don’t want to name drop. I mean, we’re here. We’re all in good faith here, right? (38:55) Oh, no, it’s already known.It’s okay. I guess. (38:59) So share it because we want to know I want to know.(39:02) Well, Brittany and Justin Timberlake were like the two biggest items at that time. And yeah, it’s known that someone (39:08) came in and basically, you know, cheated. Brittany cheated on someone and broke up Justin and hers relationship.That’s (39:17) where the cry me a river comes from that video. And what (39:19) no way. And that I love the inside stuff.This is this is good. (39:24) And that person was Wade Robson, who was choreographing for NSYNC at the time. And so that was the thing.That’s the (39:31) reason why Brandy broke up with Wade. And that’s the reason why Justin broke up with Brittany was because of Wade (39:38) Robson. And Wade went off to choreograph with Brittany for a time.And then she dumped him. I don’t know what (39:44) happened there. But he had he burnt his bridges in the choreography, graphing world.And that’s why he has no (39:53) footing anymore. That’s why because no one wants to work with him anymore. (39:57) Tonight on TMZ.(39:59) No, it’s I mean, it’s it you can look it up. It’s right there. So it’s not (40:02) it was actually a lifetime move.I just saw this one clip, but it apparently it came to light when Justin and (40:09) Brittany were both doing Saturday Night Live. And there’s this clip with these actors playing Justin and (40:13) Brittany and Justin’s reading this note. And he looks like it was Wade.So this is like documented like in (40:20) Lifetime movies and stuff. It’s not a secret. (40:22) Yeah, and that’s the thing.I would never feel I don’t want to rumors anything. Whatever I tell you, you can look it (40:28) up. And that’s always how you should approach anything.It’s like, don’t just listen to my words, look it up. It’s (40:33) there, you know. And I think that’s what the brilliance of square one is, is if you want to look up anything, here it (40:39) is, you know, in that way, as opposed to them, which is like, oh, no, trust us.And with blind faith, don’t look up (40:45) anything, you know, just trust us. And that’s the difference. One side is saying, no, do your homework.We don’t (40:51) care. Do your homework. The more you look up Michael Jackson, the more you study him, you’ll realize he was (40:57) innocent, while the other side’s like, no, no, no, no, no.Just watch Leaving Neverland and cases close. (41:02) Right? Yeah, prosecution, no defense. Just shut up.(41:06) Yeah. And I’ll be honest, that that’s kind of, like I said, as the layperson who was alive and watching the trials (41:13) initially, and just being fed this information, whatever they wanted us to have. Yeah.And then seeing square one, (41:21) that raised enough reasonable doubt I’ve gone down the rabbit hole since and all I see are just picks at everything. (41:27) And we definitely can go through we definitely have a couple questions from that. But I’m, I’m really enjoying how (41:32) you’re sharing everything.So please continue, you know, your thought path, path on where you’re at, and what we (41:37) want to talk about. (41:38) No, I was just saying, so that was just one of the things. So that’s why Wade had lost communication with our (41:43) family, because he had cheated on Brandy.And that’s why he was so excited when I reached out to him about the (41:48) memorial, because our family wasn’t talking to him anymore. I didn’t realize that at the time, you know, he had been (41:54) ostracized from the family. So, you know, I still regret inviting him to the memorial, but I felt like, you know, I (42:03) wanted to invite whoever was close to my uncle or that I felt was close to my uncle at the time.And I was he was one of (42:09) those names that could slip through that no one would remember. And so that was the that was the problem that I had (42:14) with it. But it’s just like, you know, so he plays this innocent victim, you know, in this way, but Wade was anything (42:22) but innocent and the dancing community, which has gone a lot of them have gone on record who have known both Michael and (42:28) Wade, they believe Michael, you know, and so it’s like, there’s a problem when your own, you know, peers don’t believe (42:35) you in that way.And it’s like, and it’s not a lack of, you know, them just saying, Oh, we want we want to believe (42:41) Michael, it’s just that they know Wade’s character. (42:45) So he’s been shunned in the choreography industry, then? (42:48) Yeah, he’s I mean, that’s why that’s why he’s not in it anymore. I mean, (42:52) and I’ll be honest, I didn’t know that he was kind of booted.I’m not that familiar with the ins and outs of that. I (42:58) just knew that he was a choreographer. I just he was one of the biggest choreographers he was doing NSYNC and Britney (43:02) Spears at the time of you know, the boy band craze, right? He was the hottest choreographer at that point.And so it (43:11) just it goes to show you that, you know, you burn enough bridges, and then all of a sudden, you have nowhere else to go (43:18) in that way. And he always built his career on being the hottest choreographer at the time. So I can imagine.Yeah, I (43:24) mean, look, you make personal decisions, you you suffer consequences, unfortunately, you know, if you’re the if (43:29) you’re a good person, I think that or you blame others, which is what he did. You know, it sounds like it, you know, (43:35) so that’s, that’s, that’s why I have really no respect for him is because, you know, we all face hardships, we all (43:41) face setbacks. But Wade’s been known, you know, Wade blamed Michael for his dad’s suicide, which had nothing to do (43:50) with Michael Jackson at all.But somehow they twisted it to make it seem like, you know, his dad was jealous of (43:58) Michael, which is not true at all, you know, (44:00) Wait, so hold on a second. I just got a weird blow up in my face thing. So Wade’s dad committed suicide and Chandler (44:07) and Evan Chandler’s dad or Evan Chandler committed suicide? (44:11) Yes.(44:11) Yeah, that way. (44:12) Both fathers of accusers of alleged victims committed suicide. (44:18) Yes.You know, (44:20) that seems odd. (44:21) Yeah, well, (44:21) Why wouldn’t you bring that up? They’re leaving Neverland, you know, seems relevant, but (44:25) why wouldn’t you? (44:25) Yeah, that was not brought up. That is a bombshell for me.I did not know that Wade’s father committed suicide. Also, I (44:30) just knew of Evan after square one. (44:32) Well, Wade, you know, Wade’s family, you know, they left Australia, the father stayed and so they left to pursue (44:42) America and the American dream.And so, you know, Wade stopped having a lot of contact with his father and stuff (44:49) like that. And, and I think there’s a, I don’t want to say a hurt, but there’s something like, you know, there’s (44:56) probably some guilt in there. And it’s easy to blame Michael for that, you know, in a way, but Michael had (45:02) nothing to do with that.(45:03) Oh, go ahead, Jess. (45:07) I was in living Neverland, Wade had said something that he had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And that when (45:15) this happened, like, Wade just wanted him to go away, which he’s a kid, I don’t blame, you know, kids for having (45:21) these feelings.But exactly. Yeah, it’s none of that involves Michael Jackson. That’s a family issue.You know? (45:27) Yeah, yeah. Well, I had no idea that that is a bombshell for me. I, I’ve seen it in some newspapers about Wade (45:35) blaming Michael Jackson for, you know, his dad’s death, and them running stories about it.So that’s why I brought (45:42) it up. Because it’s, that’s very frustrating to me. It’s almost like, you know, you can blame Michael Jackson for (45:47) anything in that way.And so that was one (45:50) I blame him for good music. (45:53) Which you should, which you should, I mean, (45:55) and arguably still the best music video of all time. Come on.(45:59) Which is for you, which is thriller, of course. Okay. I don’t know.I mean, don’t get me wrong. Billie Jean’s (46:04) phenomenal. I mean, they’re all great in their own.(46:06) My favorite is Smooth Criminal. That’s why I was asked. (46:08) Oh, Smooth Criminal is great, too.Good song. Anyway. (46:11) But so I think the thing that, you know, one of the things that’s just so frustrating about this whole thing is (46:17) just, you know, before Square One, it was like, it was very hard to tell the story and, and to just have people (46:25) listen.I think Square One put it in such a great bite, not even bite size, but just a tangible way for people to see (46:33) it visually, you know, and go, wait a minute. Yeah, that doesn’t make sense. Or, okay, I understand that.See, I (46:40) was around for, you know, the, the first allegation, you know, and I say, I, me and my brothers were around, we (46:46) actually, when the first allegations hit, we flew. (46:50) What year was that? Was that 93? Then? (46:52) Yes, 93. That was 93.(46:53) So you would have been 22 ish or 21, 22? (46:57) 21. I’m 1973. So (47:00) Oh, 73.Okay. So you’ve been 20, 1920. (47:03) Yeah.Okay. And my mom was still alive at that point. And I, I’ll never forget, she’s like, you got to leave school, you (47:13) know, your uncle needs you.And we were on a plane, like within hours to fly up to Asia, to be with him, because we’ve (47:22) always been that close to him, me and my brothers. And they, he explained to us that there’s, you know, these people (47:28) lying about him, and he’s gonna fight it. He’s, he’s upset about it.You know, and he was, he was angry, which is the (47:36) emotion that you would expect. He was, he’s like, I’m not gonna let them get away with this. I know who’s behind this, (47:41) blah, blah, blah.(47:42) And interesting, if I may, interestingly enough, when I remember him doing those video recordings, and then putting (47:49) them on television, you can tell he’s angry. (47:52) Yes, you can. (47:53) You can tell a serious, there’s an underlying anger out.Now seeing it through a different lens, you know, the innocent and (48:00) the guilty would probably deny it. But he had such underlying anger underneath that, that he was trying to choke down. (48:07) You know, it was a mixture of anger and hurt.And I think that was the thing, because one of the things that he never (48:13) expected, he never expected, I mean, there’s always been tabloids. And you know, this was the time of, you know, court of (48:19) hard copy and current affair, you know, that’s when they were taking off. And they just, they had a field day with it.(48:26) And yeah, they really did. I remember those those tabloid type television shows. (48:30) Yes.And one of the people, AJ Bensa, he actually, was it New York Times or New York Post that unveiled that he was (48:39) hired, his firm was hired by Harvey Weinstein to make up stories to kind of spin stories to keep Harvey off the (48:47) headlines. And one of the people that they found out they did that to is Michael Jackson. (48:53) So they use, they use Michael’s allegations to bury what Weinstein was doing in the entire time in his… (49:01) Exactly.And Hollywood knew it, which is one of the things why I’m not, you know, and this is, this is an industry that I (49:08) want to be part of in terms of like, I’ve always wanted to be a director. And I’m just like, this was this whole (49:14) leaving Neverland, I’m literally burning bridges, like with a match every place I go like, well, there goes Daily (49:20) Variety, because I just yelled at them. There goes Hollywood Reporter, because I just yelled at them.There goes (49:23) HBO, because I just yelled at them. There goes Sundance, which is, you know, a place that I thought I could debut (49:30) something at. And so, but at the same time, it’s all about justice.And I could care less if they’re lying about my (49:35) uncle or if they’re lying about a scenario or my family. So for me, yes, that’s, that’s the thing. Like, it’s all about (49:42) justice.And it’s all about truth. And so I’ll stand by that. And, and, you know, it’s really hard when people go, Oh, (49:49) well, you weren’t there.It’s like, you know, but neither were you. And so people’s words matter even more, you know, in (49:57) that, right? If you weren’t, if both people weren’t, if you’re not there, and the guy is no longer there to defend (50:02) himself, and the words of the accuser matters, and their and their track record matters. (50:08) Well, what was so interesting is how all of the cases built on the sandy foundation that was the original case.Yes. So (50:16) the truth is, it is the house of cards. If you can, if you can really disprove one of those foundation pieces, the whole (50:23) thing really doesn’t stand on its own.It doesn’t stand on its own. And it’s all been and it’s all been built very (50:29) flimsily in terms of with the you know, with the 2005 case. I mean, they’ve changed the date of the allegations because (50:36) they realized that, you know, Michael wasn’t, I think either Michael wasn’t there at Neverland, or they had done a (50:42) rebuttal video.And so they pushed back the date of the allegation, the prosecution did, and said it was another date. (50:49) And the date that that they pushed it back was after the Martin Brashear documentary, where everyone was upset and up (50:55) in arms. So they want, they want the public to the public doesn’t even know this, but they want the public to believe (51:02) that, you know, right when Michael Jackson was at the most scrutiny that he could be because of Martin Brashear (51:07) documentary, he decides, that’s what I’m going to molest this kid.(51:11) Right. That was after he had already kidnapped them from a station that didn’t even happen yet. Yeah, he held them (51:17) hostage somehow.I don’t know. (51:18) Yeah, like if you if you do the if you look through the court documents, and you actually look through the top, the (51:24) time signatures and linear everything, you’ll realize that it never made sense. It was just soundbites that the (51:31) media fed to the people.And the media has gone on record, I’ve, I think it was the head of CNN, or the owner of CNN (51:39) that’s basically said that, you know, they would have made way more money if Michael was guilty. And that’s, you know, (51:45) and so you should as a news organization, you should be impartial, you know, and be for the truth, not about how much (51:53) money you were going to make. You know, so that’s why I feel like all those media lean towards one way, because they (51:59) wanted him to be guilty.I mean, Oprah did. Oprah did a episode on child molestation during the jury selection of (52:09) Michael’s (52:10) during the deliberations before the verdict back to the trial. Yeah.So so it’s like, that’s the thing like that bothers me is (52:18) like, there’s so much manipulation going on. And that normal, when I say normal people, I just meant the average public (52:24) doesn’t even understand. But once you go down that rabbit hole, as you said, say, you know, it’s like, this all becomes (52:31) clear that this guy was just, he was someone that was misunderstood.But, you know, that’s enough for them. It’s almost (52:37) like that movie where it’s like the neighbor that’s just misunderstood or this, you know, I don’t like to use the word (52:43) weird, this different neighbor, you know, and so they, you know, there’s a crime that happens. And they all point to the (52:49) neighbor that no one understands, like, oh, he did it, because he’s different, or, you know, or unique.Well, I’ve always (52:57) used the word unique, you know, but I’ve always used it because he was he was, he was one of a kind, he was unique. And (53:03) it’s his life growing up was unique. I mean, this is a, this is a guy that was singing professionally at the age of like, (53:11) six, you know, years old, and was traveling on tour buses and this and that.And, you know, people always go, well, it (53:18) it’s weird for an adult to be friends with a kid. And I’m like, but Michael was friends with Diana Ross and Stevie (53:27) Wonder and, and Marvin Gaye, and he was a kid friends with an adult. And that wasn’t weird at all.And so that’s a thing. He (53:35) grew up in that world of like Motown where it’s like, they were just his peers. So he never looked at it as like, I’m not (53:41) supposed to be friends with kids because I’m an adult now.And I always make a joke about Back to the Future. No one ever (53:48) questions Marty and Doc’s relationship. You know, I mean, you know, probably wouldn’t fly in today’s world.It’s one of my (53:55) favorite movies of all time. I never you don’t you don’t think like that. You don’t think well, you know, why is Marty over (54:00) Doc’s house and you know, watching Doc’s stuff? What’s going on there? You know, but maybe now in today’s more cynical (54:06) world, you know, 510 years from now, it won’t hold up because people will be looking at it differently.In in a darker way, I (54:15) should say. (54:16) That’s a really good point. I mean, it’s kind of funny, because akin to how I think Michael saw the world, like through (54:22) those childlike eyes is like, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve walked by a sandbox and just plopped down next to a kid and started playing in (54:29) the sand because I like sandcastles.I mean, what’s wrong with that? You know, it’s just unfortunate how it can get viewed (54:36) and skewed. And all the evilness we see, you know, (54:38) and that’s a great point. You’re not allowed to do that anymore.Like, that’s, that’s just like, it’s, it’s almost like (54:44) robbing humanity in a way. You know, you can’t even, you have to be careful just saying hi to a kid today, you know, or (54:52) just waving at them, just because they make a face at you and you think it’s funny. You know, it’s like, you know, then you (54:58) get the parent that looks at you like, you know, stay away from my kid.(55:02) Yeah, I get that. It’s like, I’ve got that thing with crying babies, where I can look at a crying baby and then they’ll (55:08) stop. Yeah.And the parent looks at me like, there’s an arm growing out of my head. I look at him, I just shrug and go, I (55:13) don’t know what it is. I’ll walk away.And I like back away because it, it can be seen as this weird thing, right? It’s (55:19) like, creepy now. It’s, it’s got painted such a dark light now because of the allegations. (55:24) And, and it’s, you know, I mean, as a parent should always be cautious, but it’s just sad because there’s a loss of (55:30) innocence now, in that way.And I grew up, you know, wanting to always be a child. I grew up in Michael’s world or my (55:37) uncle’s world. And I saw the benefits of that.Like, I never wanted to grow up. And I still don’t want to grow up. I (55:42) still refuse to know my age.I still, you know, play hide and go seek with my cousins, you know, all the time. And, you (55:50) know, just grown guy playing, but it’s so much fun. And it’s like, the thing is, is that I just, I’ve, I’ve seen the (55:56) other side.And it’s just bills and payments and credit and debt. And it’s like, it’s not fun. You know, and that’s a (56:04) thing.Like, so it’s like being a child, sometimes you can escape that world. You know, I mean, you know, trust me, we (56:10) all have that. But I’m just saying that, in that way, it’s like, you know, I hated the words grow up, you know, you (56:16) should grow up.You know, I just didn’t like those words at all. I think, you know, (56:20) I totally get it. I mean, it’s interesting.We do have to recapture that in in ourselves at times, right? (56:25) Spielberg has that magic, like Spielberg would always talk about that was the secret of his, his directing was he was a (56:31) big kid. You know, you never, you know, I don’t know, you know, as a family man, he might have lost some of that, you (56:37) know, because he’s not been the same. But when he was doing those movies, like E.T. in Jurassic Park, he was just that (56:43) big kid playing in that sandcastle or the sandbox, I should say.(56:47) Exactly. Totally makes sense. So so to go back just a little bit.Yeah, I remember Oprah being very pro Michael. (56:55) What? (56:55) For all in the beginning. No, we’re talking like a mid 80s when he was hot, right? When she was growing her audience.(57:03) Oprah goes with what the audience like, (57:06) that’s my point, right? That’s what I’m trying to point out is like, I remember in the mid 80s. I thought she was on he was on (57:11) her show and she was gushing. (57:14) Oprah, it’s actually the most famous interview of all time.The one that they did together in February 1993 is that (57:22) interview is viewed by the most people of all time. (57:24) Yeah, it’s so my uncle, basically, the Oprah interview that happened, I think it’s like 93 million people saw it. It’s the (57:32) most viewed interview of all times over president over anything.So, you know, he basically put her on the international (57:41) map because a lot of people had no clue internationally who Oprah was. So he made Oprah an international star because (57:48) people tuned in from all over the world to see it. And he chose Oprah to do it.And so that is another reason why it feels (57:55) such like a backstab. Because, you know, Oprah has had these opportunities that our family has given her. Same thing with (58:04) my grandma who gave her the first interview with the kids and her, you know, once Michael passed, and it was in such high (58:12) demand.And Oprah comes, you know, slithering back, basically saying, you know, Michael was misunderstood, and I want the (58:20) world to see who Michael truly was, let me do this interview. And I was there for that. I actually heard that with my own (58:26) ears.And then, you know, here we are, you know, later on, and she’s over here doing a special about child molestation saying, (58:37) Oh, it’s bigger than Michael Jackson, but has every person in the audience is a child abuse victim. It was like, it’s almost like a (58:45) court case where the jury is actually rigged in that way, where everyone is designed to be a support system for Wade and James, even (58:54) though they’re telling lies. And she covered for them at times.She, she helped them at times in that way. And it just, it really (59:01) bothers me. And I think the other thing that people don’t understand, I know I’m talking a lot, and I’ll be quiet.(59:07) No, please. No, please share, share. This is this is the truth, though.We want the truth to be exposed. (59:13) Well, from what I heard, and a magazine or a newspaper printed that Wade and Wade had accused the family and Michael Jackson’s (59:25) production companies of kind of aiding and abetting, you know, this molestation. And that was supposedly in the special that (59:36) Oprah did.Well, they cut that out, because we could sue if that was the case, you know, because Michael’s no longer liable, (59:43) right? Yep. You know, we, the dead can’t sue, which is one of the reasons why it’s so frustrating. We have no leg to stand in as a (59:50) family of suing these guys for lying.(59:53) Do you have a trust of some sort that can sue or no, (59:56) no, the you can’t, you can’t sue for libel or, or defamation, or slander for if, if the person is dead or deceased? Okay, I can (1:00:07) make up any story I want about Elvis and not get sued. You know, and it’s the saddest thing that that’s, you know, there’s no (1:00:14) protection there. But that’s what they had going for them as well.Because most people go, well, why isn’t the family suing (1:00:20) them? If it’s, you know, if that’s the case. And so, but yeah, so what what Wade had to do to get money, you know, was sue the (1:00:28) estate, he had to sue the estate, and basically pretend that, you know, the production companies were involved in all this as a, as (1:00:37) a hush hush, you know, and help enable it in that way. And that’s what they’re doing now.They’re suing the estate, you know, for (1:00:44) that reason, because Michael Jackson is no longer liable to sue. (1:00:47) I’m actually gonna jump back a little bit there, Taj, because we were talking about his choreography career, and the lawsuit, but the (1:00:55) last thing he tried to pursue choreography wise was the NJ1 production in Las Vegas. And when he didn’t get that, oh, lawsuit.(1:01:03) Yes. And I don’t think they know that. Um, so basically, what happened was, Wade, you know, from the memorial, you know, actually (1:01:12) 24 hours after, within 24 hours of Michael passing, he sent, so you think, so you think you can dance? Yeah, he sent them (1:01:23) basically, an email saying, you know, hey, if you ever do a tribute of Michael Jackson, I want to be involved, you know, so and (1:01:30) then he also, on the MTV Awards, where Janet did a tribute to Michael, he’s in, he’s one of the dancers of that.So he was doing (1:01:41) tributes to Michael all the way up until, as Jess said, basically, he got denied the Cirque du Soleil job. And that’s when all of a (1:01:51) sudden, he decides to write this book. (1:01:54) So it’s very convenient, right? (1:01:56) Yes, basically.So I, it’s like, I honestly feel if he would have gotten that job, none of this would have happened. (1:02:02) Yeah, because it wouldn’t be as good of a show, though. (1:02:06) But that’s, that’s, I mean, that tells you something, that his moral, his morals are based on, you know, can he make money or not? (1:02:15) It seems obvious that he’s grasping at straws.Because he doesn’t, he doesn’t have anything. (1:02:21) He doesn’t have anything. And he even got caught lying by because of the statute of limitations.Basically, he had to say that he (1:02:28) didn’t know the estate existed, because it was a certain amount of years that he had to file this claim. So he lies and says, Oh, I (1:02:37) didn’t know this is the Michael Jackson estate existed. Well, they went back to him and said, Well, then how did you meet with the (1:02:44) Michael Jackson estate when it came to Cirque du Soleil? Yeah, because you met with John Branca, who’s Michael Jackson, you (1:02:50) know, head of Michael Jackson’s estate.And so that’s one of the reasons that judge basically throughout the case, they know, no (1:02:55) person in their right mind would believe these guys. And that’s literally what the judge said, you know, and because we just (1:03:02) kept lying. And so the dates are convenient to whatever the lawsuit will allow.(1:03:09) Right. So I mean, it’s, it’s, and it’s so different in a civil case, unlike a criminal case, where criminal case must be (1:03:15) unanimous, and a civil case, I believe, is just a majority, isn’t it like a simple majority, (1:03:19) which is what they were probably hoping with leaving Neverland to sway, kind of, quote, unquote, the jury pool. He’s, he’s a (1:03:26) monster, or scaring the estate to like, let’s just settle because we don’t want the heat anymore.Let’s just give it. (1:03:34) Right. So that’s where we’re at right now.I watched square one, about four or five times, four and a half times. Sorry, I (1:03:45) watched it. I didn’t watch double digits, guys.I’m very sorry. But we took a couple notes. And I hope I’m going to ask these (1:03:53) questions correctly.A lot of these are clarification, please understand if there’s something that I’m not asking correctly, (1:03:59) please feel free to correct us. I definitely want to get back to some of this other stuff. But like, I, I know that a lot of (1:04:06) listeners are really interested in, you know, the square one stuff, and let’s do it, you know, making sure that we can do it.So, (1:04:12) so Taj, I’m gonna just go down my list. And, you know, if there’s anything that I misunderstood in the documentary, correct me, (1:04:19) because I have a comprehension problem sometimes. So you talked about the photo shoot, I remember the beginning, the risque (1:04:26) photo, right with with with Michael.What I found interesting, what I really liked about Danny is Danny, for example, had (1:04:34) juror eight and juror nine, I think he had two jurors, but in your case, you spoke about that. But there was there anyone (1:04:40) else that he had recorded to corroborate what you had said, or any of your brothers or anybody? Get why he anyone else (1:04:48) wasn’t on footage, you know, just to get on record for that. (1:04:51) You mean in terms of the photo shoot? (1:04:53) Yeah, the photo shoot part because remember, I remember that being a big emphasis in beginning about this, you know, the (1:04:58) sensuality or the sexuality of the photos.And yeah, that that one guy saying how, you know, that’s all he wanted to do was (1:05:05) take pictures of boys or some. (1:05:07) No, I mean, there were people there, you know, in terms of that Karen Fay has spoke up about it in terms of Okay, you know, so (1:05:13) they’re (1:05:14) makeup assistant. Yeah, I just want to make sure it wasn’t only had you on it.(1:05:19) Yeah, no, it was it was a limited set. But it wasn’t like just Michael and us. Right, right.And that way. So that’s why I’m, you (1:05:27) know, they can’t go too far on it. Because there are people that have collaborated and said, basically, no, no, no, we were (1:05:33) there.I mean, first of all, I, you know, I’m very bashful about my body, in general, you know, in that way. But we were at (1:05:43) that time with 3t. We were called, you know, we were sex symbols.And yeah, you’re a hot, like a hot commodity type thing. (1:05:49) And I actually had a six pack at one point, you know, you know, it was one of those things. But we also were, you know, our (1:05:56) main target audience was women, and we were trying to be sexy for them in that way.And, you know, we were known as kind of (1:06:02) like a saccharine group in terms of very, you know, we were in the time that like Jodeci was, Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre. So we (1:06:09) were, you know, we weren’t very edgy in that, in that. And so we wanted to do something that cut more and something that (1:06:17) people could talk about.And, you know, we trusted our uncle, because he’s the one that out of anyone in the world, we would (1:06:23) have trusted because we knew that he would have the photos and that it wouldn’t get out and leak and all that stuff. And (1:06:30) little did we know that the other people leaked it anyway. But that’s what how we looked at it was like, if we’re going to do (1:06:37) it, we’re going to do it now.We’re not going to do it in Germany with some photographer, we don’t know we’re going to do it, (1:06:42) you know, with our uncle who we trust, and we know that we’re in good hands. And that’s what we did. (1:06:49) Can I just tell you something funny? Yeah.I’m a big glam metal hair metal guy from the 80s. And that album cover is the (1:06:57) least risque thing I’ve ever seen. (1:06:58) Isn’t it crazy? That’s, I mean, like, it’s like, it’s, but that’s, you know, it’s like, they, they, they take something (1:07:05) small, and they make it so big, in terms of like, they, they want the they over exaggerated to the point where it’s like (1:07:13) folklore.But I know, and especially for like magazine, or, you know, I mean, this is at a time when Janet had that cover (1:07:21) with, you know, with her husband, Renee, where the hands were over her. I mean, the Rolling Stones. (1:07:27) Yes, yes, yes.Rolling Stone picture. (1:07:29) Yeah, you know, so I’m like, you know, we were just like, it’s like, you know, that’s the thing. It’s like, but yeah, so (1:07:35) it’s, it’s like one of those things that is just so frustrating, because it’s like, you know, I don’t know, it’s just, I (1:07:41) think people look at it differently when it comes to Michael Jackson.And it’s like, oh, that’s proof of this, this and (1:07:46) this. And I just, with Square One, I was so mean that you can see it the way I was talking. It was just so annoying.(1:07:53) Because for me, that’s one of the great memories I had, because he had, he was filming Stranger in Moscow at that (1:08:00) time. And it was a great, you know, I don’t have, I have a lot of memories of my uncle, but I don’t have specific (1:08:05) memories of my uncle. And that was one of my specific memories I have, like, I can remember, you know, the soundstage, (1:08:12) I can remember everything about it, you know, and it’s like, to have someone that doesn’t even know him, and doesn’t (1:08:18) even know me try and dirty that experience, and pervert it for their own gain, that bothers me, because they don’t (1:08:25) know the intentions.I know the intentions, because I was there. (1:08:29) Right, I totally get what you’re saying. It’s, it’s pretty interesting.So I guess my, my deeper question, once (1:08:35) again, it’s more for clarification, is, you seem to be the patriarch, because you’re the oldest brother. Is that (1:08:42) correct? For the for three, for the for three T or family? Yeah, I’m just curious why T, TJ, or, or the other brother, (1:08:51) Tara, Tara, right? Why they didn’t get on square one, I guess, just once again, this is more just like, the more (1:08:58) information, the more people you have staying, obviously, the more secure your, your argument is or defense. (1:09:03) I think just because I had a relationship with Danny already, I had done something with him.And it makes sense. And it (1:09:09) was something, to be honest, I didn’t know how big square one was going to be, I had done so many interviews. And so (1:09:16) this was just another interview I’m doing.And it was almost like, okay, I can fit it in here. Let’s, I mean, I hate (1:09:21) how I look in square one. I, you know, in terms of that, the angle and everything, I remember that day.And I just (1:09:27) like, I would have changed a lot of stuff. But it was just one of many interviews that I was doing. And I think (1:09:33) with my brothers to just, you know, one of the things is, like, even with our family, and I’ve had family members (1:09:38) come up to me, and they’re like, you’re doing such an amazing job.And it’s like, so it’s like, I think sometimes (1:09:46) when there’s too many people saying stuff, it clouds, it clouds everything in terms of, you know, that way. And my (1:09:52) brother, TJ, has gone on, you know, when he was doing his music and stuff like that, he’s gone on plenty of, of (1:09:57) things and talked about my uncle, and, you know, how frustrating is about the media and stuff like that. And, and (1:10:04) Terrell’s more private in that way.He won’t do that. But he, I mean, he will, if he’s asked, you know, but he won’t (1:10:10) just volunteer to go on an interview or something like that. And it’s just, that’s the reason.There was no other (1:10:16) reason. It’s just, I was in the kind of the groove of being interviewed. And so they’re like, okay, you got it.(1:10:22) Yeah, I think you make a really good point, too, about it being centralized. If, if it’s coming through one (1:10:27) solitary voice of the family, that’s good. How have you been handling that pressure? I mean, have you been doing (1:10:34) this for the since 93? Or since whatever, 80 or something? (1:10:40) You know, real quick with the my brothers, we did do an interview in France together.We weren’t in France, but we (1:10:46) did an interview for France about leaving Neverland. And so, you know, when the opportunity does arise, you know, (1:10:53) that’s, we do do interviews together. It’s just that was, it’s where one was kind of, you know, a quick one in that (1:10:59) way.But yeah, I mean, me and my brothers, it’s funny, you know, because my uncle was always around, we always (1:11:05) would tell him because we always saw the lies that he had to deal with. And we saw how it affected him. And we always (1:11:11) told him, we’re like, we’ll be your soldiers, like, we’ll be the person, you know, you don’t, because he took it to (1:11:17) heart, you know, even though his person, you know, the persona that many people saw was like, Oh, I got rhinoceros (1:11:23) skin.And you know, it doesn’t bother me. It did bother him. He was a sensitive person.And it, you know, especially (1:11:30) when people were lying about him. And so, since the beginning, we were always like, we’ll be your general, we’re (1:11:36) going to be the ones that, that, you know, we’re not going to let you just go into this battle alone. And one of the (1:11:44) things I did was, you know, when then, as you said, when the, when the 93 allegations hit, we were the first ones (1:11:51) there, you know, out of everyone to, just because we were able to be there for him.And same thing with the 2005, I, I (1:12:02) left, you know, my apartment and moved to Neverland, because I wanted to be there every day for him. Because I knew this (1:12:08) was going to be very hard for him. And I was there every day of that trial, and before the trial, in terms of because I (1:12:14) wanted him to know that he had support.And, and then, you know, one of the things is, is that what do you give the (1:12:24) person that has everything, you know, well, when he’s no longer around, you know, you can defend him, and you can (1:12:31) stand up for him. And that’s what I did. Because, and I feel honored to do that, because I feel like I’m finally (1:12:35) giving back to him.He gave me everything, you know, without question. And now I can give something back to him in (1:12:44) that way. So I feel honored doing this.Yes, it’s been a nightmare. Yes, it’s been the hardest thing. I’ve bit my (1:12:50) tongue thousands of times where it’s bleeding.I have a daughter that was basically born, like, two, two months before (1:13:00) Leaving Neverland came out. And I had to make that decision. What do I do? Do I just, do I be selfish and, you know, raise (1:13:09) my daughter and just let, let Leaving Neverland take its course? Or do I stand up for my uncle? And it didn’t take long (1:13:18) for me to just see my daughter and look into her eyes and go, I’m not going to let her grow up in a world that thinks (1:13:24) Michael Jackson’s a child molester.It’s the, it ends here. And that’s why I do it. I do it for her.I do it. I see (1:13:32) her. And I’m like, I’m not going to let her live in this in a world that thinks this way, because it’s not true.And so (1:13:38) that keeps me going. But I do miss out on a lot of things from her, but it’s a sacrifice. (1:13:44) How do you take care of yourself, emotionally and spiritually, to make sure you’re not? I don’t even know how to (1:13:51) I know what you mean.Okay. It’s, it’s called unplugging at times. I mean, one tweet on Twitter can ruin your day, you (1:14:01) know, especially if it’s very ignorant.And that and I’ve had to kind of step away or just like, you could read 30 (1:14:07) supportive tweets, and one really nasty one, and it could really ruin your mood. So you have to kind of unplug, you have (1:14:16) to take a step back. I’m doing a project, you know, a project for my uncle right now, where I have to study (1:14:25) pedophilia, in a way, you know, in terms of like, cases and all that stuff.And it’s like, it’s, you mentioned it (1:14:32) earlier, it’s such a dirty feeling, that I literally have to watch like four comedies or whatever, and space it out so (1:14:40) that I don’t, you know, because it’s such, it’s so dirty, and so, you know, dark in a way. (1:14:45) And, and you were, and you were a victim as well. So it can dredge up all those same feelings, emotions that, you know, (1:14:52) you went through.(1:14:53) But I don’t want to be naive either, you know, and I, in that way. And so I’ve studied those, you know, whether it was (1:14:59) the, the Olympic scandal, or, you know, it’s like that, those kind of things, or Epstein, or, you know, or there’s (1:15:07) certain things that I’ve studied now, because I’ve had to study in a way. And one of the things that’s always is (1:15:15) interesting is that, you know, Michael didn’t have, there was a lot of stuff that Michael didn’t have that they pretend (1:15:23) that he had in terms of, he didn’t have, he had power with the fans, he didn’t have power with the industry, with the (1:15:30) media, you know, which is what we’re seeing with these other people, they were very, they hid in plain sight, because (1:15:35) either people protected them, or, you know, or people, basically, you know, the higher ups kind of were in cahoots (1:15:43) with them, in certain cases, that wasn’t Michael’s case at all, in that way.(1:15:48) Right. And what’s interesting about that, too, is, to your point is, the Weinstein, right, we’re seeing Hollywood being (1:15:55) exposed now. Yes.And it’s very easy to take a single unique individual, who kind is on the fringe, but made (1:16:04) themselves right, the size that they were, and just everyone point their guns at them, to deflect from themselves. (1:16:12) Deflect from, I always say, you know, people say, where there’s smoke, there’s fire. I go, No, you know, where there’s (1:16:18) smoke, there’s mirrors.And that’s basically how I look at Hollywood right now, is that basically, Michael was the (1:16:25) smoke, like they basically, I mean, we saw it clear as day with Harvey, it’s like, wherever Harvey’s name started (1:16:31) coming up, here comes a Michael Jackson story. In that way. I mean, square one, I swear, I’m sorry, Leaving Neverland (1:16:38) debuted the same, at the same Sundance as Harvey’s, Harvey Weinstein’s documentary, you even hear about Harvey (1:16:46) Weinstein’s documentary.(1:16:48) I didn’t even know there was one. (1:16:50) It aired and Harvey’s was out. I mean, Harvey’s was out first and scheduled first.But then it’s like, here comes (1:16:57) Michael Jackson’s documentary, and it sucks up all the air. So to the point where no one even talked about, I think (1:17:02) it’s untouchable, that no one even talked about that documentary. And that’s the thing.That’s, that’s how they (1:17:08) play that game. (1:17:09) In that way. But also the US premiere on HBO happened like the first week of his trial, I believe.(1:17:15) Yes, it did. And they put, they kept pushing it back. That’s the thing, the timing, like, is like the, they wouldn’t (1:17:21) give a date of when the premiere was going to happen until they knew kind of when Harvey’s trial was going to (1:17:26) happen.So it’s like, it’s all strategic, in a way, you see it, you want to, you know, take, once you, as I say, it’s (1:17:33) kind of like the matrix, once you see it, you can’t unsee it, you know, but it is to other people, they’re like, Oh, (1:17:39) come on, you know, or that’s just coincidence. But there’s, there’s enough coincidences to now be like, okay, that’s (1:17:45) just how it was, especially when you realize that Harvey did pay people to deflect. (1:17:51) Yeah, it’s crazy.Because Chris and I, we’re, we’re the guys who see the strings attached to the puppet, we see the man (1:17:57) behind the curtain, we can’t put that toothpaste back in the tube. We’ve always been advocates for just truth. And (1:18:06) look, I mean, it’s so much bigger, how this Michael Jackson incident, this whole thing is showing how others are (1:18:15) being are using things and manipulating the world to their benefit.And now they’re being exposed. So it’s even bigger (1:18:22) than Michael. I mean, as big as this story is, it’s the entire industry being exposed for who they are.(1:18:29) And they should be in that way. And that’s the thing. But even to the point, they’re still being protected in a way, (1:18:35) it’s the story should be a lot bigger than it is.And, you know, Corey Feldman’s been on this case, talking about this (1:18:42) since, you know, the early 90s. And no one took him serious. And he’s been very consistent about certain things of (1:18:49) Hollywood, you know, but they already had their sights set on Michael Jackson.And that’s all that they cared about, in a (1:18:57) way. And even in Corey’s book, Corey says, Michael was my protector. Michael’s the one that, you know, that kept me away (1:19:04) from that stuff.And, you know, in that in terms of the view, like, he was his escape from all that stuff. And it’s like, I (1:19:12) always find that interesting, because it’s like, that’s how he was with me as well. He was my escape out of that, you (1:19:18) know, world.He almost wanted to make sure I was OK. And that I would grow up, quote, unquote, normal, because I had that (1:19:25) bad childhood. (1:19:27) Right.And Corey also is a self-proclaimed victim of child sexual abuse. So we’re finding that and then obviously (1:19:34) Macaulay Calkin story, and how, you know, how he describes the bedroom. I mean, what’s really interesting is like, we hear (1:19:41) bedroom, I hear four walls, you know, you might have a bathroom attached, but that’s about it.You know, this the sizes, (1:19:48) it’s like a wing. I don’t even know why you call it a bedroom to begin with. (1:19:50) I mean, yeah, his, his bedroom would be something that people would dream would be their house in a way, you know.And I (1:19:59) just think it’s interesting, because the word bedroom, you know, it, it already sounds sensual. And same thing with the (1:20:04) word bed, you know, and that’s something to me and to, you know, I know with my uncle in general, it’s a piece of (1:20:10) furniture. Like, if I would have said the same thing, like, Oh, we, we watched movies and then fell asleep on the (1:20:15) couch, no one would have thought anything.But it’s like, Oh, we watched movies and fell asleep in the bed. It’s like, (1:20:20) Oh, whoa, whoa, wait, what? You know, and that’s just, it’s wording, it literally is wording, it’s just circumstance. (1:20:27) But that’s how we’re conditioned.Because we see bed as one, a thing for one thing only. And that’s not one. You know, (1:20:36) that’s not only what a bed is used for.It can be used to actually sit and watch movies and stuff, which is what we did. (1:20:41) We’d watch three studios or whatever, pop popcorn and throw it at the TV. And it was just, it was fun times.And it was (1:20:48) never sinister. It was, trust me, I was looking through a different lens at that time. You know, in general, if I would (1:20:57) have seen any, like going back in my 30 years of, you know, and going, Okay, let’s rewind.Let’s see if anything in my (1:21:05) brain could say that was weird, or that was uncomfortable. Or I saw how he did that with this person. And that’s not right.(1:21:14) I’ve not one time thought that because and I’ve rewind plenty of times because he didn’t think like that, in that way. And as (1:21:22) many people want to try and make it sound like he did. It wasn’t what he thought.(1:21:28) Yeah, it’s totally crazy. Like I said, it’s like, when you hear bedroom, to your point, you just hear room, bedroom, that’s (1:21:34) where all the magic happens, right? All this stuff to the bedroom. And it’s like, it’s, it’s almost like you’re a victim of a bad (1:21:40) word choice.Like, don’t call it a bedroom. Just call it like a winged house or something, you know? (1:21:44) Yeah. But that’s the thing.And especially with my uncle, it’s like, he didn’t, you know, he was so on the run. And he didn’t (1:21:51) sleep much at all, anyway. So it was like, it was just a room to him.In that way. He was always somewhere else. And it’s (1:22:00) just, I don’t know, it’s hard for me, because I just, I know the scenario.And I know, I’m putting on two hats. I know what the (1:22:09) public kind of, I’m not in a bubble. I know what that sounds like.And I, so I can understand certain people’s point of (1:22:15) view. You know, well, I would never let my kid blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I understand that.But you also didn’t have (1:22:21) the experience that my mom had, where my mom did allow that, you know, because my mom knew my uncle’s heart. Just like, you (1:22:28) know, if you know someone well enough, and you trust them, then it’s like, I would, I’m gonna give an analogy, I hope it’s a (1:22:46) female friend. It’s like, they can sleep in the same bed and be fine with it.Because they know, you know, the gay guy’s not (1:22:53) interested in her. And she’s not. (1:22:55) Yeah, there’s no, there’s no funny business going on.(1:22:57) Exactly. And she’s not interested in him. So people would hear that and go, oh, we went to Vegas, and we shared the bed and (1:23:01) all that.People wouldn’t be like, oh, well, that’s right. (1:23:03) Or even two women like girlfriend. I was out with my girlfriend.(1:23:05) I’ve used that excuse too. But you know, I was sharing a bed, and I’ll say it, and I’ll explain, because I’m gonna have to (1:23:14) explain. I was sharing bed with my best friend on one of my tours, because I was too cheap to buy another room, because it (1:23:20) would cut into my, to my budget.And my, you know, so he slept on one side. And then, you know, and I was, you know, his (1:23:26) feet were in my face. And I was, you know, in the other.And then I had to change rooms, because I was like, you know how (1:23:32) this looks, you know, people might assume, because we’re two guys, that something’s happening. But he’s just literally my (1:23:38) best friend. And, you know, I don’t want to pay for an extra room.But it’s just like, that’s just society. That’s just how (1:23:44) people think. And, and so it’s just, it’s just frustrating that people sometimes don’t see past certain things.They’re just (1:23:52) like, oh, well, I wouldn’t do it that way. So it’s guilty. (1:23:56) Right.I know exactly what you mean. Oh, go ahead, Jess. (1:23:59) Oh, no, it’s just agreeing with you guys.(1:24:02) So going further down through the conversation, the negotiating of the 20 million to the three $350,000 scripts to down to (1:24:13) one. Was that all like recorded? Or how how did that conversation go? Is that all in documents that Danny provided in (1:24:22) square one? (1:24:23) So, in square one, Danny did play part of an audio clip that see, these conversations were recorded between Anthony (1:24:33) Pellicano, which was Michael’s private investigator and Barry Rothman, who was Evan Chandler’s lawyer. And Pellicano was (1:24:41) having press conferences where he would play these clips for the public to, you know, report on, of course, that kind of (1:24:49) disappeared, because I’m sure you don’t remember that hearing about that when this was going.(1:24:52) I don’t. No, not at all. (1:24:54) But that clip came from like archival news footage that Anthony Pellicano was playing.So Anthony Pellicano, he did go to, (1:25:02) he’s out now, but he went to prison for wiretapping. So I’m assuming he recorded a lot of conversations. But yeah, (1:25:09) that would probably constitute wiretapping for sure.(1:25:12) Oh, yeah. It kind of checks out. (1:25:14) Yeah.Interesting. (1:25:15) Yeah. And so, you know, as I was saying way, way, way back in this, I grew up kind of watching people try to extort my (1:25:26) uncle, you know, in general, in that way.It was a part of life. And that’s what was frustrating was, I don’t think my (1:25:33) uncle, with his heart of hearts, thought that this would get any traction, just because of who he was, and because of how (1:25:40) much he cared for children and going to orphanages, I thought he thought the public would be would see through it. And (1:25:47) it just, it was the perfect storm, because it happened, as I said, with, you know, when Courier d’Affaires and (1:25:52) Hardcopy were at their biggest, you know, in terms of they were getting big numbers.(1:25:57) And right, and they were paying people to interview. So it was make up stories. And yeah, I mean, I would have made up a (1:26:04) story.If I had known I would have said something, I’m sure I could use the money. (1:26:07) And so it, it basically shocked him in a way. He’s like, how could these people believe this? Look what, you know, I’ve done so (1:26:15) much, you know, and why are these people believing this? And he was that and people forget he was at a town on tour at the (1:26:23) time.So he was getting the news of what was going on in America, from other people, in general, too, that some of them (1:26:29) didn’t even want to tell him how bad it was. Some of them, you know, were panicking and telling him how bad it was. (1:26:34) So imagine that push pull to he’s on stage, and everyone, they’re just screaming his name, right? Then he gets to the T gets to (1:26:42) the hotel room to unwind and everyone’s shitting on him, basically.(1:26:46) And I saw that push pull, I’m going to talk about in my project. But basically, I can tell you a little about that. It destroyed (1:26:54) him.It literally he stopped eating. And, you know, he had to be fed. What’s it called? intravenously? (1:27:03) intravenously? (1:27:04) Yeah, intravenously.(1:27:05) Yeah, no appetite, because he couldn’t think straight. And he couldn’t eat. And there were times on tour that literally, me (1:27:13) and my brothers would prop him up on stage right before he did his right before he went on, because he got a certain energy (1:27:21) from the fans.And, and it was like, he needed to re energize, but he was like, it the image still haunts me, because I feel (1:27:30) like part of me feels like, was that the right thing to do? But then I know that the fans gave him that love and energy. And (1:27:36) he needed that, you know, I almost feel like I feel guilty for propping him up on a stage when he’s like, you know, when he (1:27:44) physically couldn’t really even stand at times. But then once that audience hit, he would liven up.And then he (1:27:51) turned, he like turned on like a switch, (1:27:53) turn on like a switch, and then he would be walking back to the van. And then he would just like either collapse or, you (1:27:59) know, and it was like, it was like, deja vu in that way that that’s what happened. And I always thought I was doing a good (1:28:06) thing, because it was like he was giving showing him his love, the love that the people had.But I can’t imagine what he (1:28:12) was going through. And that’s kind of what my project is, is kind of like, okay, all these stories, how did it affect him? (1:28:19) Because he’s human. And, you know, he was a private person.And we’ve never heard really, the stories of like how the (1:28:28) rumors of this or the rumors of that or whatever, how he had to deal with that, and the people around him what they say in (1:28:34) that way. And so that’s kind of the unique scenario that I had that, you know, is kind of a continuation of Square One in (1:28:41) that way. But it’s like, it was just devastating to be there.And that’s why people like Elizabeth Taylor that were there (1:28:48) as well. You know, she was, from what I’ve heard, she was one of the people that was, that had convinced him to settle. I have (1:28:59) to be cautious, because I didn’t hear it, hear it.So I’m just saying I from what I’ve heard. (1:29:03) Right. And we can say, allegedly, you know, we’re, we’re covering our bases.We’re not here to slander anyone. (1:29:09) No, no, no, I look, first of all, she’s, she was the most amazing person. (1:29:13) I can’t imagine.(1:29:13) In terms of like, she was, she went to bat for my uncle, you know, and I even think if she was alive today, this wouldn’t have (1:29:20) happened, because she would have shut down all of Hollywood and put them in their place. But I know what she thought, she (1:29:27) thought, it’s only money. You know, you’re on tour, you have a career ahead of you.You just got, I think he got a ridiculous (1:29:35) publishing agreement, you know, for X, I think it was like 60 million, or maybe it was $70 million. So she’s like, you have (1:29:42) your whole life ahead of you. You know, why would you know, why would you get bogged down in this, make it go away in that (1:29:49) way.And then we saw what the criminal slash civil case in terms of which one was going to go first, that really put his back (1:29:55) against the wall, because then it wasn’t even a choice anymore. (1:29:59) Yeah. And I wanted, I was really curious about that.How the heck did the verdict on the criminal case preceding the civil (1:30:05) case get lost or whatever? (1:30:07) The argument by Larry Feldman, allegedly, is that Jordan Chandler was too young, and his memory might be like fuzzy (1:30:19) after some time. So that’s why he was pushing for the civil case to go first. And he wasn’t helping the, he was letting the (1:30:28) cops do their job.So he wasn’t like, Oh, I got this info. Here you go, cops, they were doing their own thing. And the cops (1:30:34) were doing their criminal investigation, and coming up empty handed.So Larry Feldman was like, I’m just going to keep (1:30:41) doing this. And, you know, it really came down to Jordan Chandler not wanting to testify. But yeah, there was, that would (1:30:53) have been like the only cooperative evidence was his testimony in a criminal case, which he didn’t want to do then, or (1:31:00) even as an adult later on, in the Arvizo trial, which he also had the opportunity to do, but he vehemently fought.He (1:31:07) didn’t want to. (1:31:08) And I think that also the settlement, in the settlement, it never prevented anyone from that family from testifying. So (1:31:16) that’s one of the things that always bothered me is they make it sound like it’s hush money.Well, if they’re still allowed (1:31:21) to testify in a criminal case, then where’s the hush money? (1:31:24) You know, that’s a great point. And I’ll be honest, whenever I see something settle it, the first knee jerk reaction, of (1:31:32) course, without looking at is what are they hiding? Right? I mean, we go that way. It’s unfortunate the way we look at the (1:31:38) world like that.But that’s kind of where we go. (1:31:40) Well, I was gonna say, I also think that, you know, in terms of corporations would do that all the time, whether it was (1:31:46) McDonald’s with like, you know, like the coffee being too hot, and someone spilled, you know, they had a lawsuit, and they (1:31:52) would just settle it out of court. Michael was the first artist or figure that basically became the poster child of why you (1:32:00) don’t do that.Because you’re now you’re considered guilty in that way. And I think a lot of people learn from that. But he (1:32:06) didn’t really have someone ahead of him to go, okay, that’s gonna look really bad if I settle.(1:32:12) Right. And to your point, his hand was forced at this point, because the civil trial was going forward, regardless of the (1:32:18) criminal part. (1:32:18) And, and he made sure with the with the settlement to say that it was negligence, you know, and, and, and, you know, that he there (1:32:26) was no wrongdoing, and he’s presumed that he declares his innocence, he put all this stuff in that made him probably feel like, (1:32:33) okay, I’m putting this in so that people know that I’m innocent.But it didn’t matter, because the media just took it and ran with (1:32:40) what they wanted to say anyway. (1:32:42) Right? Well, it’s like, when you get a speeding ticket, when you sign it, you’re actually not signing an admission of guilt, (1:32:46) you’re assigning that you got the ticket. Yes, exactly.So it’s like, but you’re gonna sign it. So you’re like, Oh, you must have (1:32:52) been speeding? Well, no, I just signed acknowledgement of the ticket. Yeah, I’m sorry.(1:32:57) I wanted to bring up is that Michael’s team went to court four times to try to get the criminal case push first. So, I mean, why (1:33:08) would it which I would have done as well, right? Obviously. Yeah.Anyway. And so but the reason why the judge sided with the (1:33:16) Chandlers is because of Larry Feldman’s argument that Jordan was too young, and his memory might become fuzzy. (1:33:23) Yeah.And what I love about, I mean, once again, out of this tragedy, or out of this smear campaign comes good things, right? You (1:33:32) know, we’ve got an exposure of truth. And now civil cases cannot go forward unless the criminal cases completely aren’t there (1:33:39) laws now in place that almost because it’s almost like a Michael Jackson law. (1:33:43) Yeah, no, there was a lot.So that’s great. After. Yeah, it’s great for them.You know, I mean, right. It’s a great (1:33:48) result. Right.I’ll come out of this tragedy. Exactly. And that’s the thing.I mean, I think, you know, it’s just hard (1:33:54) because yeah, the civil case, if that was allowed to go first, it would have been the equivalent of like, you know, a (1:34:01) championship game from a team, and they get to watch the other team practice and see all the plays. Yeah, that’s literally (1:34:08) what it would have been. And so that’s why Jess, you know, mentioned that the lawyers, you know, went four times to kind (1:34:15) of get the criminal case ahead of it.So almost like, no, let’s play the big game first, you know, because I don’t want (1:34:21) them to see all the plays. And, and, and that’s kind of what is happening with the Johnny Depp Amber Heard thing right (1:34:27) now. She took notes, basically, you know, from this case, the case that they’re going through, she was there every day (1:34:33) taking notes, because she has another case coming up.So now she knows how what exactly what Johnny is going to say, (1:34:39) what their lawyers are going to say. So she can adjust, and she can kind of fill in the blanks of certain things. So in a (1:34:45) way, it’s, it’s very similar in that aspect of it.And that’s the way I kind of look at it. It’s like, okay, now I see (1:34:51) what that means. (1:34:53) Yeah, that’s, that’s crazy.Okay, Jess. (1:34:55) On another note, as far as having, like, fair juries and stuff like that for a court system, the DA was really after (1:35:05) Michael Jackson. Taj, did you ever hear about Tom Sneddon? (1:35:09) Oh, yeah.Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can’t say much about in terms of, he was, you know, I mean, he was after him.It (1:35:18) was almost like, it was beyond a vendetta. It was like a personal grudge in a way. And it’s it, like out for blood, (1:35:28) like, almost like this is gonna make my career.So I’m going to get this guy. (1:35:33) That was a big question of mine, too, especially with this is with all the eyes on it. I mean, one of the things that (1:35:39) prosecutors criminally need is, is persecution, right? They need to have the verdict in their favor, because they have (1:35:45) metrics that matter.It seems like the criminal case was pretty, it was decided pretty quickly, right? The verdict was came (1:35:53) in pretty quickly. It was a two weeks, two weeks, and obviously not guilty on all 14 counts, right? Correct. So it’s (1:36:01) curious why they would have pushed forward seeing that the the outcome was so different than what they went in for, you (1:36:07) know, makes it look bad.I mean, it makes it look bad that you’ve lost on all four, you got 14 counts. (1:36:13) I think arrogance, arrogance, and maybe overconfidence in the media and pushing the narrative in that way. I mean, they (1:36:21) were controlling the press conferences, they were, you know, they if they could paint Michael to be this weird, you know, (1:36:28) outsider kind of guy, you know, then maybe they could get, I mean, I don’t think they, they anticipated maybe getting the (1:36:34) public on their side.But I don’t think they anticipated how good Tom Mesereau was, in terms of talking to that jury, and (1:36:42) them seeing Michael as quote, unquote, a human, you know, which is what they did. They got to see Michael as a human and (1:36:49) actually see, no, this guy that I’m looking at right now is not the guy that they’re trying to make me think he is. (1:36:57) Right, like, they were trying to dehumanize him in a way.And (1:37:03) yeah, yeah, which is which is their whole tactic. Yeah, it’s always been their tactic. And I mean, with everything like (1:37:09) they, it’s almost like not only larger than life, but just like, he’s more like a cartoon character.So and people still to (1:37:16) this day, like, don’t have problems saying bad things about him, because it’s like, they’re like, oh, it’s not gonna hurt (1:37:21) anyone. And but it’s like, he has kids, he has a mother, he has brothers, he has a sister, I mean, sisters, he has, you (1:37:28) know, family, it does hurt people, you know, but they don’t see it that way. Because it’s almost like he’s such a big, you (1:37:35) know, figure in that way.So (1:37:37) yeah, it’s, it’s amazing. So going through that some more. November 12 1995.Something about Jordan Chandler (1:37:49) emancipating from his parents. Do you guys have any more insight on that? It was just kind of brushed over in the (1:37:55) documentary. But I was really curious if you guys had any more information on that.(1:37:59) Uh, I’m looking right now. I have my arsenal, I call it. (1:38:04) Jesse, that was before the, the, like, what the father fight with him? That was because they got in a altercation.(1:38:14) There was an altercation between Evan Chandler and David Schwartz, I believe it was summer of 96. Yeah, got the (1:38:24) file here. It’s July 22 1996.Evan Chandler versus David in June. Sorry, I should have. (1:38:35) No, that’s okay.I kind of I kind of jumped in. But But basically, to help help Taj, to your point, it was something (1:38:41) about Evan beat up Jordan. Yeah.And I was curious why there were there ever criminal charges also against Evan? (1:38:49) Or was it just the emancipation? Or how to how that all kind of came together? (1:38:53) So you’re talking about Evan and Jordan. And that happened? Yes. In 2005.Right around the trial. Let’s see. On July (1:39:03) 7 2005.So this was after the verdict. Yeah, it was a complaint. Yeah, it was a improper behavior, harassment, (1:39:13) improper making communications.There was a restraining order. restraining order that was filed. (1:39:21) But it wasn’t the it wasn’t the criminal charges, right? Because there was an actual physical assault.And he hit him (1:39:26) with something. Yeah, I thought there was like, it was like a baseball bat or something like that. But I read that in a (1:39:32) paper of something.So it’s not something that I Yeah, yeah. But in square one, they also talked about the (1:39:38) emancipation of Jordan Chandler. Right.But that was 10 years prior in 1995. Okay, I’m just curious. Is that I mean, (1:39:46) does that kind of play into the whole story of how his parents and and Jordan were not really on the same page? (1:39:53) Well, maybe Jordan’s never publicly spoken.So I’m not gonna speak on his behalf. But June, his mother did testify in (1:40:01) that trial. And she had said she testified 2005.She hadn’t spoken to her son in 11 years. So that would have put (1:40:07) 1994 right around the time of the settlement. So I mean, it’s the whole situation is sad for Jordan.(1:40:14) Yeah, it’s sad for Jordan. And I truly believe that like, he, he got put in a situation. And yeah, I mean, for you to (1:40:24) get emancipated from your parents just shows it kind of speaks, you know, volumes in my in my, you know, especially (1:40:31) the timing of that.(1:40:33) Yeah, I have the file here with the assault says the judge found that plaintiff had proved that he and his father, the (1:40:40) defendant were members of the same household when defendant struck him on the head from behind with a 12 and (1:40:44) one half pound weight, and then sprayed his eyes with mace or pepper spray and tried to choke him. (1:40:50) Geez, so no bat is like a dumbbell or some barbells. Are you kidding me? This is unbelievable.(1:40:56) But that’s that’s the stuff that I mean, you you went down that rabbit hole and kind of dug that up. But most (1:41:01) people don’t even know that, you know, in that way. And and that’s, you know, that’s (1:41:06) right, because the character of the parents, I mean, the parents are the ones suing on behest of the child, the (1:41:12) child who doesn’t seem to be voluntarily, you know, voluntarily cooperating.And all this stuff, it just, it (1:41:19) just adds more cloud or more shadow to this, you know, to to what people are saying to the narrative of Michael (1:41:26) Jackson is this person, you know? (1:41:29) Yeah. And I think there’s, there’s this, there’s this conversation that I want to, you know, about the 1993, I (1:41:36) call it the extort extortion case, as opposed to the, you know, settlement. But Chandler says, you know, Michael, the (1:41:43) career will be over.And this works, which is, you know, says, Does that help Jordy? And then Chandler says, this is (1:41:50) Evan Chandler says, Michael’s career will be over. And Swartz goes, and does that help Jordy? And Chandler goes, (1:41:57) it’s irrelevant to me. Yeah.And that was recorded on audio. (1:42:02) Yeah, we I was definitely in the in the documentary. And that just that turned my stomach that your father’s using you and (1:42:09) not even I don’t know, however, (1:42:11) not even caring about, you know, I mean, when my mom didn’t tell my dad about my abuse, and as Jess said, because my dad (1:42:18) would have killed him, you know, literally, I know my dad, and I know he found out when I publicly announced it.And I (1:42:27) know why my mom didn’t tell my dad, because my dad would have probably went down there and the guy wouldn’t be a lot (1:42:33) wouldn’t have been alive for much longer. Because that’s what, you know, the anger and the what the parent would have (1:42:39) done. I’ve seen my dad want to fight.What’s it called? The, I guess, people that sell, you know, fake merchandise, you (1:42:48) know, on our tour? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. You know, the, he literally in in your (1:42:54) unlicensed, like the unlicensed stuff, right? The t shirts, and he wanted to go down and fight the guys.And, and our (1:43:02) security is like, you don’t want to fight them. They’re gangsters, you know, and my dad’s like, I don’t care. They’re (1:43:07) ripping off my sons.And and so that’s my dad. So that if he’s willing to do that for some t shirts, (1:43:14) you know, he’s like the true head of your household, right? He’s like a protector. (1:43:17) Yeah, if he’s willing to do that for some stupid three t t shirts that are, you know, then I can’t imagine what he would (1:43:23) have done if he found out.(1:43:26) Oh, wow, I just started to go back on to the emancipation thing. But I just found the file written to Jordan from his (1:43:36) legal team. And it’s dated June 13 1995 10 years to the date before Michael’s exoneration.But it says, Dear (1:43:45) Jordan, we have received your copy of the petition petition for emancipation, which we propose to file. But I could send (1:43:52) this guy to you guys. Wow.(1:43:56) Can you just give us like two sentences of why he wanted to do that? (1:44:00) Since I doesn’t, okay, doesn’t say, okay. It says even though juvenile court files are confidential, that in my (1:44:07) opinion, is insufficient to protect you against a claim that you have breached the agreement in the underlying case. (1:44:12) It’s a bunch of like legal stuff.But there’s no specific reason given Charlie Brown’s mom. Okay. (1:44:22) Gotcha.Exactly. (1:44:25) So, uh, is there anything else, Chris, that you had about square one or any other questions? Or do you guys have (1:44:30) anything? Oh, my last question is, um, objectively speaking, but I would like you guys to both answer this. How do (1:44:40) you guys see the future of square one? I mean, what do you in the coming months, years? What do you, what do you (1:44:50) hope it’s going to do? What do you think it’s going to do? How do you see this all playing out? (1:44:57) Do you want to go first, Jess? (1:44:59) I think that after this podcast, it’s done worldwide.(1:45:04) Thank you. (1:45:05) Yeah. I don’t know.I, we just really hope it’s all grassroots. And then he did such an amazing job. I just really (1:45:14) hope it gets out to more and more people.So I know it’s opened the door for other projects. And yeah. (1:45:21) Yeah.I’m very proud of square one. I, you know, I was just interviewed, a lot of people think I have more to do (1:45:28) with it. I’ve helped promote it because I stand behind it.But, you know, I didn’t help fund it at all. I didn’t do (1:45:34) anything to do any of the heavy lifting that anything just went to the premiere and loved it. And, you know, I’m a (1:45:41) big supporter of it.But one of the things I can tell you is that it’s changed a lot of people’s minds, just because (1:45:48) it’s a story that people haven’t heard, because the media hasn’t been fair enough to tell that side of the story. So a (1:45:54) lot of stuff sounds new, it shouldn’t sound new, because it’s been there since 93. You know, if you knew where to (1:46:02) look, but it is new.And Danny, and his team did such a great job of putting it in such a way that it’s under, it’s (1:46:10) easy to understand, and easy to digest to the point where you get it, you understand it. And, you know, it’s like, it (1:46:18) should leave you angry at the end, like, Oh, my gosh, I was duped, or I can’t believe that I thought this way. And, you (1:46:26) know, the best thing for me would be as would be the people that used to rock Michael Jackson, but don’t didn’t feel (1:46:35) good to, like one of you guys said, in terms of, it felt dirty.But now you’ve seen square one, and you realize, okay, I was (1:46:43) wrong. And I’m rocking them more than ever now. And I think that’s the thing, the power of square one in that way, (1:46:49) because it not only just, you know, it’s, it presents the facts, and it allows you to go and look them up and research (1:46:56) them in a way.And it’s kind of like the gets you into that rabbit hole quicker. (1:47:04) My last question is, can you tell us about your next project? (1:47:07) Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, and it’s interesting.It’s, it’s kind of been evolving, because, look, I would like nothing (1:47:15) more to not have to do a project. Because, you know, Michael, people have seen, you know, the truth. And now all of a (1:47:21) sudden, everyone is like, Oh, Michael’s innocent.You know, it’s, it’s happening, but it’s happening pretty slowly. Square (1:47:27) one’s been a huge leap in that way. And one of the things that I’ve always had to do is evolve in terms of like, okay, (1:47:35) what does this project need to be? Because I knew square one was in the pipeline, I knew other things are in the (1:47:40) pipeline.And I don’t want to rehash a lot of the same stuff, unless it’s needed to. And so for me, my project has always (1:47:49) been in terms of, okay, who was Michael Jackson, because that is something that a lot of people forgot, or a lot of people (1:47:58) just didn’t know in general. And there’s a whole generation of people that grew up that don’t know him at all, just know (1:48:04) the tabloids and the headlines.And so I truly believe once you get to know who Michael Jackson was, and what he stood (1:48:11) for, you’ll realize that these, this case, these cases, and in terms of, you know, the allegations, they really don’t have a (1:48:20) leg to stand on once you realize. And so my whole job is to get the people that were closest to him, his friends, his (1:48:27) co workers, you know, his family, and basically, not kind of speak for him, in a way, you know, because he’s not here to (1:48:36) speak for himself. And so if it was a eulogy, it would be something similar to that.But it’s not going to shy away from, you (1:48:43) know, the controversies, because, you know, his life was filled with controversies. And I think that actually shaped him, (1:48:50) whether it was good or bad, or, you know, the 2005 case is the reason he’s still, he’s not around anymore. I think that case (1:48:59) literally destroyed him.I don’t think he was, it almost set him up for it. I have to be careful how I say this, but it wasn’t for (1:49:09) me, it was a, it was a matter of, well, how long does he have? Because it’s just like, it destroyed his soul, it destroyed his (1:49:15) spirit, you know, (1:49:16) And that was one of my questions was coming out of that, right? Like, did that break him? Did that start the substance abuse of I (1:49:24) don’t know, you have his fentanyl, or some kind of opioid, obviously increasing and leading to his not waking up one morning? (1:49:33) Well, he’s always had a hard time sleeping, because he’s, you know, part of, and I’m not a genius. So when I say part of being a (1:49:40) genius, it’s not me.But you know, what I’ve studied, but yeah, because their brain works so fast, and they have millions of (1:49:46) things going on, they don’t sleep, like they want to get to everything. And, and that’s always been the case with my uncle, in that (1:49:54) way. And with This Is It, you know, it was like, besides the pressure of having to deliver, you know, he’s, it was 50 shows, you (1:50:03) know, at the O2, which was never been done.And it like, it, I mean, it was just such a ridiculous record that he did. It was (1:50:12) almost like, it put everyone, you know, wondering, is Michael, does Michael Jackson still have it? It put them in the shame, (1:50:18) basically, because I think Prince had sold, Jess, you might know this, like, I think 20 concerts. (1:50:25) I knew it was less than 50.It’s all I know. (1:50:28) Yeah, it was like, it was like 20 something concerts at the O2. And it’s just like, and Prince is huge.And Prince is one of my (1:50:34) idols. And so it just, I think one of the things is, yeah, my uncle was never the same. And I want to show that, like, because he’s (1:50:44) human.And there’s certain things like the Pepsi commercial that burnt his scalp, you know, third degree burns on his scalp. He was (1:50:51) never the same after that. That was the height of his career.And he gets these burns that he had to live with. I mean, it literally (1:50:58) stapled his scalp back together. (1:51:00) Your dad was there for that.(1:51:02) Oh, yeah. And, and, and I lived with my uncle’s pain, like every once in a while, he would make this sound and he’d say my scalp. And (1:51:11) that didn’t stop, you know, five years later, 10 years, that was through his whole life.He was still having that pain. So he was (1:51:18) always on pain medication for that anyway. So it was like, what if that Pepsi commercial never would have happened? You know, (1:51:27) would he have been introduced to pain medication? So it’s like, there’s so many things, you know, or, or his accident that he had, you (1:51:34) know, on tour where I forgot which song it was, where the the thing that he that the lifter song, yeah, the lifter thing drops down, you (1:51:42) know, and and hurts his back.It’s like, there’s certain things that contribute to, you know, it wasn’t like he’s like, Oh, I like how (1:51:49) these drugs feel in terms of this pain medicine, medication, let me just take them. It’s like, that and the constant bullying. It’s (1:51:57) like, you know, it’s interesting, because people are sympathetic when it’s not Michael Jackson, if you heard that story from (1:52:03) someone else, and they were constantly bullied and made fun of and, you know, they were taking pain, pain medication and numb the (1:52:10) world around them, you’d be like, Oh, that’s very sad.You know, I can’t believe these people did that to him. But when Michael (1:52:16) Jackson, it’s like, Oh, he’s a druggie. You know, he like, what does he have to be feeling bad about? Yeah, he overdosed, you (1:52:23) know, and I hated that word overdose.Because, you know, the doctor, I mean, he was, you know, (1:52:29) well, it was a, it stopped breathing. So it’s just, it was not a good situation for sure. (1:52:35) One misconception is that he was just like, completely addicted to drugs after the trial.And that’s not completely true. Like (1:52:43) doing the research, I found that he actually put himself through rehab. Like 2006, or I know, I think it was, it was before he (1:52:54) passed away, but he was not trying to keep pursuing that.I just, yes, wanted to put that out there. He wasn’t just like, (1:53:01) Yeah. Yeah.And I hope I hope I wasn’t accusing that. (1:53:05) Oh, no, you weren’t. (1:53:05) Line of questioning.But But I can see, you know, your spirits broken. And I come from addiction. And I’m familiar, you know, the (1:53:15) addiction is the effect, not the cause.A lot of time, you know, to your point, obviously, pain medication form a traumatic, physical (1:53:22) experience in the Pepsi commercial. And I recall that I remember the lift with his back. Yeah.But I’m just talking about the (1:53:29) spirit being shattered, when the world is looking at you as this criminal, and you’re still, you know, you’re top of the world (1:53:37) still, it’s, yeah, it’s that push pull that we kind of talked about earlier. But But Taj, to your point, I’m really curious about (1:53:43) your project. Is it? Is it just gonna be much more personal? (1:53:47) It is, but it’s also, you know, it’s gonna go through the controversies, because, you know, I’m not going to skate through those (1:53:53) anyway, you know, if I skate through them, then people will be like, Oh, he’s just trying to hide something.I think what I would (1:53:59) love is for this, my project to be something and it’s a multi episode project. It’s because I can’t get it all in one episode or two (1:54:07) episodes is 2030 40 years down the line, someone picks this up, and they realize who Michael Jackson was, and what his life was, (1:54:16) because it’s almost like the tabloids have had their at the tabloids and the mainstream media have had their chance to tell their (1:54:23) Michael story. But that’s not who Michael was.And everyone that knows him knows that. And but he was such a private person. And he (1:54:31) didn’t believe in, you know, in going on TV and defending himself.I mean, he had to at certain times, but he, he tried to look (1:54:38) past it. And that was one of, I don’t want to say his faults. But that was one of the things that that’s why we don’t have so much on (1:54:44) him defending himself in certain ways was because he just kind of thought it would blow over.(1:54:50) And also, in some places, he couldn’t like with the Chandler settlement, they were not allowed to speak about it. (1:54:56) Yeah. And when he finally did say something, I think it was Diane Sawyer, they sued him.You know, when he said he was (1:55:02) innocent, they sued him. Yeah. So it’s like, you know, but people don’t understand that or know that.And so there’s a lot to (1:55:10) uncover. And especially someone like me, that’s been literally there from, you know, his star on the Hollywood, you know, Walk (1:55:18) of Fame, I was right there in those pictures right next to him with my brothers, you know, to on the set of Moonwalker on the (1:55:25) set of Captain EO, you know, I’ve witnessed it all. I’ve seen it all in that way.And he was the most amazing person. And of (1:55:35) course, people are gonna say, Oh, he’s your uncle. But I’m talking about people that he wasn’t related to, in a way like (1:55:40) workers, and, you know, makeup artists and stuff like that will tell you the exact same thing.You know, if you talk to Karen (1:55:46) Faye, she’ll tell you the exact same thing. You talk to Karen, Carol Lemire, she’ll say the exact same thing. But but it’s like, (1:55:52) but but they can agree on one thing, Michael was amazing.And Michael didn’t know would never have done that. And that’s what (1:55:58) tells me, you know, all these people that, you know, can’t agree on one thing, but they can agree on, you know, Mike, on (1:56:05) Michael Jackson. And that’s how I always look at it.I’ve never ever thought, okay, what about this? Or what about that? I’ve, I’ve (1:56:13) looked at it through the lens of someone that had been abused before. And I can tell you my uncle is one of those rare people (1:56:20) that just he really cared about children. And there’s that.It’s that one speech that he says, I think he’s half, like, it’s a (1:56:31) slurry speech. And I forgot who recorded him without him. No, Murray.Was it Murray that recorded him? Yeah. And it’s like, you (1:56:40) could tell he’s half out of it. And he’s talking to me tell to Murray is real quick, just for Murray’s vacation.You want to (1:56:47) say it, Jess? He’s the person who is charged with murdering Michael Jackson, like legally. He was the doctor. He’s the doctor.(1:56:55) Okay. He was the doctor that was supposed to administer the right amount and whatever. And then, you know, Murray basically (1:57:03) records my uncle without him knowing.And, and my uncle’s like half out of it, you know. And he, my uncle in that time is (1:57:13) talking about building the biggest children hospital. And that’s one of his goals in life to help the kids and to build this (1:57:21) hospital.And I just thought that was so amazing. Like, you know, I think when you’re, you’re like half out of it, you know, it’s (1:57:27) like, or when you’re drunk, or any of those things, when your inhibitions are gone, you tell the truth a lot, you know, in that (1:57:34) way. And that’s, and that was what my uncle wanted to do when he, you know, with all his inhibitions gone, and whatever, he (1:57:43) wanted to help kids and build a children’s hospital for them.You know, and I’m, and I’m talking about the biggest one in the (1:57:49) world. So it’s like, that’s how he was. He was like that.He’d visit orphanages, you know, and hospitals, you know, no (1:57:56) press there, just, you know, and he, as he said, he would visit more hospitals and orphanages than he did concerts. You (1:58:03) know, he would, he would secretly either donate, you know, money to for liver transplants, or, or he would, you know, he (1:58:10) would be on it and make sure a kid had a liver transplant, or this or that. And, you know, one of the things for Square One, (1:58:16) when we were doing promotion in Holland, I got to meet someone that basically her life was saved by my uncle.And that was, (1:58:26) it brought me to tears, because I’ve always known how generous he was, and how much he cared and stuff like that. But, you (1:58:33) know, just her story. And just, you know, just, he just was like that.He, you know, whether it was Dave, Dave, which, you (1:58:41) know, a lot of people don’t know his, his, his dad, there’s a custody battle and between his dad and his mom, and his dad (1:58:50) poured gasoline on him and lit him on fire. And so he had, he had severe burns, you know, and my uncle saw the story and (1:58:58) befriended Dave, Dave throughout his whole life. Dave, Dave, Dave spoke at the memorial, or the private memorial, not the (1:59:05) public one.And it was just amazing, because my uncle always made sure Dave, Dave was taken care of. He always, you know, (1:59:12) made him feel special. He said, You’re not weird, you’re special.And Dave, Dave always felt special, because he had Michael (1:59:20) Jackson as a friend. And I always just Ryan White, same thing when Ryan White had, was diagnosed with HIV and AIDS, you know, (1:59:30) his, his own school would not let him participate, because they didn’t know, you know, this is when AIDS was, (1:59:36) right, HIV was so new and scary, and just unknown, right? (1:59:40) Yeah. And so what my uncle does is he invests his own money to basically find out about AIDS.And he brings Ryan to his house (1:59:46) and lets Ryan, you know, swim in the pool and everything to feel normal, you know, in that way, and hang out with him. (1:59:53) That’s so magnanimous. It’s such a great story.(1:59:55) You know, and, and, and it is, and his mother tells it so well, Janine, you know, I hope to have her, her be interviewed for my (2:00:04) project. But it’s like, those are the kind of stories, you know, and bought him, you know, his car that he, you know, I guess it (2:00:11) was a car that he was dreaming of having, and my uncle saw it and bought it for him. And it’s just like, you know, those are (2:00:19) things that my uncle did not have to do.And they make it seem with Square, with Leaving Neverland, that he’s he was grooming (2:00:26) every kid that he met. And that’s beyond he just was generous. He just cared about people.And, you know, he paid for my high (2:00:34) school, my college and whatever. And so I get really irritated with the word grooming. I know that happens with a lot of (2:00:41) cases.But my uncle was just generous. And there’s a different and they, they made it seem like his grooming was dirty. (2:00:48) And well, if they can pin if they can, if they can pin the atrocities of a child abuser to him, right, if they can pin those, those (2:00:56) allegations, then they can say that what he was doing was grooming.He was, you know, and he was hiding, right? Oh, well, he’s (2:01:02) donating to hot children hospitals, because he’s hiding the fact that he’s a blah, blah, blah. And it’s, these are crazy. (2:01:08) And no, I and I’ve heard them all.I’ve heard them all in interviews of people saying that in that way. Of course, he did that (2:01:14) because he wanted to do this or that, you know, and I’ve heard them pad the numbers, because, you know, the average child (2:01:20) molester, you know, when given the opportunity that has hundreds of victims, you know, and so they try and throw in all these (2:01:27) people just because they need victims, you know, but the fact of the matter is all these kids that, you know, from the (2:01:35) Macaulay Culkins to the Corey Feldman to the Johnny Spencers have adamantly defended Michael, even, even to the point (2:01:42) where in, in 9394, when police were going up to the kids and their families lying, saying, we have pictures of Michael with (2:01:52) kids, when we need you to help us bring them down. And that way, that’s what they were telling these people.They weren’t (2:01:59) saying, well, we suspect they were making it sound like he was this monster. (2:02:04) Right. They were like implying it.So they were putting it in these people’s heads. And, and, and to a testament of the (2:02:12) families, they were like, well, that’s not Michael. No, I’m not doing that.Because that’s not true. And a lot of stuff (2:02:17) because they knew him, and they knew his true heart. And, you know, Corey Feldman says it, Johnny Spence says, you know, (2:02:24) that’s what they did in terms of, you know, they, they were after him, you know, they secretly tapped his phones.I can’t tell (2:02:31) you how many conversations I had where, with him that I would hear a click on the other line. And it’s like, we knew what (2:02:37) that, that meant. And it’s just like, it was just, it’s torture.I mean, off and on 10 years, FBI, you know, secretly (2:02:44) investigating him, two raids at his house, and they won’t find one single shred of evidence. I mean, at some point, facts do (2:02:52) matter. (2:02:53) Yeah, that’s what I heard.I heard something about that. Facts being a good thing. (2:02:58) You know, the description didn’t match, you know, which they will lie and Maureen Orff will said in her vanity fair (2:03:06) thing that this description is matched.It did not match because if they matched, Michael Jackson would have been sent (2:03:12) to jail right away. That would have been enough proof in 93 to, you know, to get to put him in jail. (2:03:18) Well, just on it on its head, right? Wasn’t one.They said he was circumcised, and he’s not correct. Or just that alone, (2:03:26) regarding the vitiligo stuff, not even talking about the skin coloration or anything. That’s a very different look.(2:03:33) Oh, we as guys, we know that look is different. You know, that’s the thing. And, and, and that that, and I say that, you (2:03:49) know, because a lot of stuff was, because he didn’t talk about it and say, I’m uncircumcised.A lot of that was like, we (2:03:57) knew it. But we, you know, I always know about his vitiligo. I saw it all the time.But the public didn’t know, but it (2:04:03) wasn’t a public record in that. And so, you know, his death, you know, vindicated him a lot of stuff in terms of, you (2:04:11) know, the inaccurate descriptions. (2:04:14) Um, one other thing I wanted to tie in again, as far as why the perception is that he’s guilty by the majority of public, I’m (2:04:24) hoping that’s shifting sooner than later.Versus what the criminal case found is, again, criminally, nothing, there’s (2:04:33) nothing there. However, Tom Sneddon was like in cahoots. There was one press conference he gave, and had he was asked a (2:04:43) question, he’s like, Oh, I don’t know, just ask Diane, referring to Diane Diamond.So he was in cahoots with the media. So (2:04:49) that kind of does, go ahead. (2:04:52) No, Rob, Rob Zonin, and who’s one of the head prosecutors, he was going out to dinner with the media, and Stacey Brown, (2:05:01) and, and it’s like, so it’s like, they were using the media to their advantage in that way.And it was just, yeah, I mean, we (2:05:08) saw it clear as day, but a lot of the public doesn’t. So it was like a gang up. It was almost like, you know, an assassination (2:05:15) attempt on his legacy, which in part of the way they succeeded, because they wounded him enough that he never fully (2:05:22) recovered.(2:05:23) And on that note, I was listening, it was in a podcast, Telephone Stories, where there was a journalist that was saying that he (2:05:32) thinks that the prosecution won. And did they win in the criminal sense? No, but they got rid of the problem because he (2:05:40) left. I thought that was the most cold thing I’ve ever heard in my life.But if that’s what they wanted, that’s, that’s what (2:05:48) the journalist was saying that that’s what the prosecution wanted. They wanted him to go. (2:05:52) Yeah.That just sounds like just a total team up. I mean, how do you win against that? (2:05:58) Well, that’s the thing. And I think that’s the hard thing that my uncle had to deal with is that, you know, my uncle knowing (2:06:06) that what 93 did to him in terms of the settlement, and knowing, okay, this time, I’m going to fight it, man, you know, they (2:06:13) made it sound like he could, he was like, the way the media made it sound in the 2005 trial was he was gonna flee.He’s gonna (2:06:21) flee the country. He’s gonna flee the uncle flew in to get arrested, basically, you know, to go through the court system and (2:06:30) Santa Barbara, no, Santa Ynez. The court.It’s a very conservative town, in a way, you know, and I think there’s only one (2:06:43) black juror as an alternate that was on it was, you know, so it was predominantly white. (2:06:49) So and that doesn’t sound like a jury of your peers, does it? (2:06:51) No, it doesn’t. And I think and that’s what’s so amazing about it is that he, you know, it was almost like he won in the worst (2:06:57) scenario you could possibly win.And it’s like, no, we’re not going to win, you know, and have questions of like, Oh, no, this juror (2:07:05) voted for her, you know, voted for acquittal, because they’re black or that it’s like, No, you know, I’m going to win the right (2:07:12) way. And, and they did. And, you know, the reason that Tom Mesereau at one point was even contemplating not even doing a defense (2:07:20) was because the prosecution did such a horrible job, because they didn’t have anything to work with.There was nothing, you know, (2:07:27) they had, you know, they had scam artists, as the accusers that were known scam artists to people like Jay Leno, who took, who (2:07:36) kept his distance away from them, because he didn’t trust them to, you know, to Chris Tucker, same thing. So it’s like, but for (2:07:43) some reason, you know, when it comes to Michael Jackson, the bar is so much lower. And that’s what we’re realizing with James and (2:07:49) Wade, is that it doesn’t matter if they’ve lied 3000 times, you know, their people are going to do mental gymnastics to (2:07:57) protect them.(2:07:59) Yeah. And I found that interesting that Chris Tucker thing, he was always talking about how generous Michael was. Oh, and I (2:08:04) didn’t know about that relationship until square one that kind of shone a light on that as well.(2:08:08) My Michael was the type of person that would go would be driving and he would see someone like a homeless person. And he would (2:08:14) just grab a wad of bills and give it to him. You know that and not even ask for anything like not just just miraculously and (2:08:23) then drive off.That’s how he was. It was not. There’s so much goals and so much that I want to be like him in terms of because (2:08:32) he was just and it sounds like I’m just a fluff piece, but he was really that amazing that anyone that he knew will tell you (2:08:40) the same thing.Like, you know, he just, he was that person. It wasn’t like an act. It wasn’t like he got in the car and (2:08:46) it’s like, Oh, geez, you know, he was that person.And that’s, and you become a target sometimes when you’re that person, (2:08:52) because, you know, you’re a good person in a bad world. And sometimes people look at you through bad lenses, and they can’t (2:09:01) see the goodness. (2:09:03) Yeah, or they they assume ulterior motives for the goodness, right to hide.(2:09:07) How can someone give something to someone without wanting something back? Like, (2:09:12) right? How dare they? (2:09:14) There has to be something that you mean that he just bought this kid a car, you know, Ryan White a car and didn’t want anything (2:09:19) else. You know, (2:09:21) how dare humanity? How dare you? Yeah. So so you’ve got this project Taj.And do you have a couple episodes already recorded? (2:09:29) Or do you have it already lined up with everything? Or are you still in the works? (2:09:33) Well, the to be completely, completely honest and frank, this the Coronavirus thing really kind of hurt it. Because I (2:09:42) don’t want to do Skype interviews. I don’t want to do zoom interviews.I wanted to be (2:09:46) I would agree with you. And one person (2:09:48) exactly. And one of the other things is that when I started this project, leaving Neverland was still fresh.And a lot of (2:09:58) people that I would have approached probably would have been scared to touch it because it was so new. And it was almost (2:10:05) like everyone that was standing up for Michael was getting slammed. You know, in a way like how dare you’re a sympathizer (2:10:12) towards this blah, blah, blah.And so now the tide is starting to change with things like square one and just people (2:10:18) realizing the truth and all that stuff. So it’s a different environment now to approach certain people. So there’s a lot of (2:10:24) people that are now have come to me say, I want to be part of this.There’s a lot of people ahead of time that did that (2:10:31) anyway, a lot of people that I didn’t expect to do that. But now I even have more support. And I kind of, I’m actually really (2:10:39) excited because at the end of the day, it’s going, you know, I expect probably about 80 interviews, any, you know, which is (2:10:50) completely different than, you know, leaving Neverland that just had two families, you know, in, because I feel like you really (2:10:59) need to get to know who Michael Jackson truly was from all different walks of life, from the people that worked for him, the (2:11:05) people that even the people that he fired.There’s this one lady that I am, you know, that will wants to be interviewed that he (2:11:15) fired for. And I won’t say the reason why he fired her, but he fired her, but she’s (2:11:20) we’re not going to dox her Taj, don’t worry. But I’d love to hear this story.So there’s a woman that he fired, (2:11:25) and he fired that I loved at Neverland, like literally loved like she was like everything in terms of to me like, and and, but (2:11:33) she and she ended up testifying in 2005 for him as well in that way. Because, you know, it just she, if you know, Michael (2:11:44) Jackson, you know, Michael Jackson, and if you care anything about justice, and hate injustice, you know, you’ll speak out. (2:11:52) And that’s what we’ve seen with it.I mean, they even try to twist, you know, Marlon Brando into saying that Marlon (2:11:58) Brando, you know, there’s some stupid story about Marlon Brando until Miko Brando had to go out of, you know, like, you (2:12:04) know, out of, I don’t wanna say hiding, he just was not publicly in the public. And he’s like, that story is so false, (2:12:10) blah, blah, blah. And, and I knew it was false anyway, because I knew how much my uncle and, and Marlon Brando were (2:12:17) friends.And that way, you know, when Marlon Brando was sick, he stayed at Neverland. And, and a lot of people don’t (2:12:25) know that. But it’s just like, that’s the kind of thing like my uncle cared about people.And the only thing that really (2:12:31) frustrates me about all this is that I wish that during his trial, yes, there were the Brandos and the Elizabeth (2:12:38) Taylors. But for all that he had done for people, like certain, certain people, he did not get the same support back for (2:12:45) what he had done for them in that way. And that was because certain agents or publicists told their clients to stay away (2:12:53) from him in that way.And that hurt him more than anything. We talked about the media hurting him in terms of for the (2:13:00) trial. But imagine if your friends stopped talking to you, or your friends, you know, won’t return your phone calls.(2:13:06) Yeah, it’s it’s fickle when you think it’s when it’s true, when you’ve made a true reach to make a friendship, or you and (2:13:14) them, it wasn’t the same depth that you offered them. Exactly. And so it’s kind of funny, we’re actually laughing here, (2:13:20) because, and we did decide to do a video just in case we, you know, we wanted to make sure we got this recorded.I have a (2:13:28) painting of Marlon Brando in my office, next to Muhammad Ali. So they’re both on the video. So when you mentioned Brando, (2:13:35) Chris just tapped me in the shoulder, he just pointed over our heads, because he’s looking over us.He’s watching over us (2:13:39) right now. (2:13:39) I love it. And I think that’s the thing.I mean, you know, it’s funny, the old old Hollywood, like the Gregory Peck’s and the (2:13:46) Marlon Brando’s and Elizabeth Taylor’s, you know, they understood my uncle, they knew his heart, they were super friends (2:13:52) with him. In that way, it was it was the younger Hollywood that, you know, was so worried about their career. And I mean, we (2:13:59) see it today, you know, it’s, it’s kind of like, no one will take a stand against anything, you know, because they’re so (2:14:05) scared of what, you know, what it’s going to do for their career.So they have no backbone about it. (2:14:10) Yeah, well, the cancel culture is just running rampant right now. (2:14:14) Beyond rampant.It’s almost like you put a target on your back willingly, if you say. (2:14:18) Yeah, I mean, we started our podcast, and we actually have two very different podcast themes, for example, one’s just a (2:14:25) screw around, right? It’s called beer Googles. And we get drunk and look up random shit on the internet.Yeah. So that (2:14:32) one, we make really bad, dirty jokes, like, it we’re shameless, but it’s the intense humor. It’s not to hurt anyone.But we (2:14:40) know that coming back around, we’re gonna get stuff that we’ve said. (2:14:45) Exactly. Yeah.No, it’s, it’s, it’s an interesting thing. But I just, you know, I just wish more people did their (2:14:52) research, you know, kind of went down that rabbit hole, because, you know, I, you know, my uncle was amazing, not only as a (2:15:01) human being, but just as an artist, and I want people to be able to appreciate his music. I think it’s very unfair what the (2:15:07) Simpsons Simpsons did, you know, with, he’s the only episode ever to be taken out of the Simpsons.And he still is out of the (2:15:14) Simpsons. And I think that’s, yeah, that’s unbelievable. You know, I mean, there’s a lot of guests on the (2:15:22) Simpsons that have had allegations that they’ve admitted to.And, you know, with underage kids, you know, rock legends and (2:15:32) stuff like that, that are on the Simpsons. And I just it, the hypocrisy bothers me more than anything, at least be (2:15:39) consistent. You know, like that be consistent, don’t, don’t pick and choose.Oh, we care about this person. So we’re gonna (2:15:46) keep this episode in but this person, you know, we’re gonna go with the flow. (2:15:51) Yeah, I mean, it definitely sounds like the cards are stacked against your favorite, regardless of his guilt or (2:15:57) innocence, regardless of that.They’re, they’re definitely leaning on on him. (2:16:02) Well, then the media, because the media, for sure, is such a big mouthpiece, but they’re getting, I think, every, you (2:16:09) know, year, it’s less and less, because people are finding their news other ways, they’re finding the truth other (2:16:14) ways. And so what the media used to be, they used to be the one all be all, but now they’re not, because other people (2:16:21) are getting information, and they’re setting up podcasts, or channels, and they’re delivering it, you know, other ways.(2:16:27) And, I mean, that’s how square one happened was, you know, Danny decided, you know, someone that was like, Yeah, I (2:16:35) like Michael, but you know, I, you know, want to talk to his nephew and his niece about it. And, you know, and that (2:16:41) interview went so well that he’s, he went down that rabbit hole with his team. And, you know, I didn’t know where that (2:16:48) was going to go.I did when I did the first interview, I just was taking any interview that would take take us at that (2:16:54) time. (2:16:56) Absolutely. Yeah.I mean, that’s what it that’s what it speaks to is I, I can just tell from the buzz that’s on Twitter and (2:17:03) in social media, how much, how much this is growing. And I obviously, I’m not telling you what to do. But I, it’s my (2:17:12) opinion that the mainstream media, put your put your uncle in this position, screw them.Yeah, do every podcast (2:17:19) interview, screw that you will get, you will get the exposure you need, but you do not need them anymore. And they’re, (2:17:25) they’re scared. (2:17:26) They are scared.And I’ve realized that I don’t need them anymore. And, and there’s certain people that have come to me in (2:17:32) terms of like, you know, like, Oh, I know someone in Canada that, you know, the blah, blah, blah times. And, you know, (2:17:40) this in this city, they have, you know, a newspaper, and I and I know them very well.And we can do a piece and all that (2:17:47) stuff. And then they come back, I’m sorry, they don’t want to run a pro Michael piece. And I’m like, so they get their hopes (2:17:54) up high.And then I’m like, but I already know the answer. You know, I’m already thinking like, okay, we’ll see if that (2:18:00) flies. And so I’m not disappointed, you know, but they are because they thought, Oh, well, we have all this evidence.And why (2:18:06) wouldn’t they want to talk to you, but you’d be surprised. I mean, look at Good Morning America. (2:18:12) It seems like the, the media, if I try to look at this from an objective or strategic viewpoint, from the 50,000 foot level, (2:18:21) which I hate that expression, the media plays on the masses, and the masses love when the mighty fall, like, like, I’m a (2:18:34) golf person.And, but I’m not a Tiger Woods fan. Because I didn’t, I didn’t get into golf until about five or six years ago. (2:18:41) And I love golf, but I’m a horrible golfer.But I still like it and that which is really stupid and illogical. So but everyone (2:18:47) loves Tiger Woods, because he was amazing. And then he fell off the radar, because a bunch of chicks fell out of a tree.Now they (2:18:57) love him again. But I still remember on Thanksgiving night when his ex wife took a nine iron to his escalator. But I’m the only one (2:19:04) that remembers that.So that’s in and of course, everybody went crazy with OJ. So it seemed my point to this rambling is the (2:19:15) media caters to the masses who love that. But to your point, Taj, they don’t think about the fact that this hurts people (2:19:24) personally, like, personally hurts you, and your emotional well being and your family, and everyone around you.Because they (2:19:35) want money, because they want ratings to get money is basically what they’re doing. And that’s, that’s freaking shameful. (2:19:43) Yeah, that they’re using our family for ratings and stuff like that.And, and, you know, part of that, we know that, like, that’s (2:19:50) what we know we’re going on. And I mean, there were certain channels that we go on, and they didn’t want Brandy, because she’s not a (2:19:56) name. They wanted, you know, my uncle Marlon, because he’s part of it.It’s like, but Brandy dated Wade. It’s like, Oh, no, no, we (2:20:02) want Marlon, because he’s the name, you know, and all that stuff. And so that’s how the game is played in that way.And then (2:20:08) certain people in the media, particularly didn’t want Brandy, because they didn’t want that to destroy the narrative. And so (2:20:15) it’s just like, it’s frustrating when you know, you have a piece of the puzzle that it’s like, is a counter. And, and I say that (2:20:23) only because I’ve seen the media plenty of times, but oh, well, here’s the ex of so and so, or here’s the girlfriend of so (2:20:29) and so.They do that all the time of like, wanting to get that person on. But somehow, when it comes to our family, and it’s (2:20:34) like, she can provide a different viewpoint, you know, it’s like, Oh, no, no, we don’t want her, you know, because she’s pro (2:20:40) Michael. (2:20:42) Right.Shameful, again. (2:20:47) I mean, it’s we grew up, honestly, we grew up with it. I mean, you know, even with my career as 3T, I mean, the first reviews of (2:20:55) our album, you know, before we hit were horrible.And when I say horrible, like, you know, what a disgrace to this family. I (2:21:03) mean, they’d said everything they could gave us the worst reviews, but then we hit, like, you know, the top of the charts. And (2:21:10) all of a sudden, now the same album that they dogged, it’s now every single is an A, you know, when they gave our album an F. (2:21:19) And it’s like, you know, because now they need us.And now they want, you know, want us to be friends with them in that way. (2:21:25) And I’ve seen it’s just hypocrisy, but I’ve seen that that’s how it works. And I’m not only talking about Hollywood, I’m (2:21:31) talking about, you know, this happened in the UK as well.(2:21:36) Yeah, well, we talk I mean, let’s look at BAFTA, right? Yes, you want to talk about BAFTA and what happened there. And then we (2:21:41) can shit on that for a bit before we move on. (2:21:44) Oh, yeah, I thought it was like, hilarious.I was like, are they trolling leaving Neverland? Because the award, it wasn’t best (2:21:50) documentary, it was like most factual documentary, it kind of reminds me of like, when Trump goes on his rambles, it’s like, is (2:21:56) the greatest, most factual documentary that’s ever existed? You know, just ramble. (2:22:01) That was the best Trump impression I’ve ever heard in my entire life. Hold on, hold on, we have something for that.(2:22:07) Oh, wait for it. Wait for it. Wait for it.(2:22:13) That was the best Trump impression I have ever heard. And why didn’t he start the show? (2:22:20) Why? You have orange makeup on and an amazing wig, right? (2:22:23) For sure. Sure.(2:22:24) I didn’t have talent, Jess. (2:22:27) That was amazing. So please continue.But can you can you share what happened at BAFTA before I just jump it? Because I (2:22:33) don’t even think Chris knows what I’m talking about right now. (2:22:35) I don’t want the most factual documentary. I knew that part.I think that’s it. I don’t get why people get so upset. (2:22:43) Yeah, leaving Neverland won the most factual series or something, something, right? Most factual documentary.(2:22:50) Yeah, I was like, are they trolling this? (2:22:51) And that was two weeks ago. (2:22:54) Jokes, literally, especially with all the with the secretive editing that Dan Reed did, basically, as we were, you know, (2:23:03) discovering all the lies, he was taking it out for the UK version. So it’s just like, it’s so dishonest in a way, but at the (2:23:14) same time, I, I know the game, I’ve grew up in the game, I would grow, I grew up watching the Grammys and the American Music (2:23:21) Awards.And like, hey, Michael, can you show up to this? We’ll give you this award if you if you show up because of the (2:23:27) ratings and this and that. So it’s always been a game. It’s always been rigged in that way.You know, and it just it leaves a (2:23:35) bad taste in my mouth, because it shows you that they’re trying to push an agenda just like the Emmys did, you know, because (2:23:41) HBO was a huge sponsor of the Emmys. And, you know, the Emmys, one of the things that was very dishonest was the Rotten (2:23:49) Tomatoes review, you know, it had a great score with the critics, but they wouldn’t allow the audience score to people to (2:23:57) put reviews in the audience score. And so, and, and I called them out on it, because someone brought that to my (2:24:04) attention.And they only released the audience scores, once all the basically the voting was over for the Emmys. So if (2:24:15) you were an Emmy voter, and you didn’t even see Leaving Neverland, if you went to Rotten Tomatoes to see how it was, you (2:24:20) would see like a 98% and go, Oh, okay, well, this is a good, this must be a good documentary. But right now, if you go on (2:24:27) Rotten Tomatoes, you’ll see 98%.And you’ll see audience score. You know, I think it’s like, it’s like 14%. (2:24:33) 24.(2:24:34) We can probably pull it up right now. Yeah, got this interwebs thing I heard about. But what’s really interesting about (2:24:41) that to Taj to point that out, it was very similar, if you’re familiar with Dave Chappelle, it’s his last special that it’s (2:24:47) exactly he got like 15%, or something or zero.And then they did the audience, it was 99%. (2:24:54) It’s it was the exact flip of that. And that told me everything I needed to know is that when the media has an agenda, they (2:25:01) will, they will get on point, and they will, they will sell it, and they will not break rank, you know, but the audience (2:25:09) really dictates.And that’s why I think the threat of them not letting the audience score go until the votes were cast, because (2:25:16) they knew once the vote that that would manipulate people in terms of like, actually trying to look at it from a different (2:25:23) point of view. And I just think that was just so dishonest. And why I say that is because Rotten Tomatoes is related to HBO (2:25:32) with Warner Media.You know, Warner Media owns a part of Rotten Tomatoes. So it’s all, you know, it’s not just random, (2:25:38) it’s something that’s like, hey, you know, it’s as if you follow the trails, like you guys said that you do all the time, (2:25:47) it you see, you see it clear as day in terms of how they’re manipulating this or that. And it’s frustrating, but you know, (2:25:55) more and more people are waking up to it, more and more people see it, and more people see the scam, and they’re not being (2:26:01) sold on it anymore.(2:26:02) I think that just goes to show with everything. I mean, with music, movies, TV, every entertainment type is being and this I (2:26:14) sound like a total idiot. It’s being controlled from above and by who I have no idea.And and it’s just, yeah, it’s, it’s (2:26:24) disturbing. And I know that has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. But it’s a, it’s a, it really, I feel very (2:26:36) uncomfortable with that concept.Because I before we started today, I you know, I’ve been doing some research, etc. And I (2:26:43) looked up who owns HBO. And then you just said it 16 seconds ago, like Warner, but I didn’t know they had a connection with (2:26:50) Rotten Tomatoes.And HBO, I had no idea about that. Like, oh, my God, my eyeballs just popped out of my head. Like, oh, my (2:26:57) God, of course, they’re connected.Why wouldn’t they be? Like? (2:27:00) Yeah, it’s, it’s, yeah, it’s like, it’s, it’s, it’s like those up on top, they’re controlling the food that we eat. And so by (2:27:09) controlling the food that we eat, they control our health in that way. And that’s the thing that our mind is our health.And so (2:27:16) they’re controlling how we think, and, you know, they’re dictating, it’s like, oh, you’re gonna get this, and you’re gonna get (2:27:21) that, we’re giving you this now, and you’re not going to see this. And, and it’s unfortunate. And I really, you know, Hollywood (2:27:29) has a bad problem with pedophilia, you know, in that way.And it’s amazing that it’s still not as, like, you would think that (2:27:38) the media would be all on it, and would be, you know, really adamant, because these are children, you know, we’re talking (2:27:45) about, this would be something that everyone should be in agreement with, you know, but (2:27:50) can we see Dan Schneider? And what’s the other guy, the kid, Drake Bell, right? Dan Schneider, Drake Bell, Drake Bell’s Dan (2:28:01) Schneider’s protege. Dan Schneider was on that head of the class show as Dennis, whatever, the chubby dude. He’s a producer, (2:28:09) right? And now all these allegations are coming out what he’s done, or at least the allegations of what have happened, (2:28:14) right? Yeah.Mark and Chris, what have you heard at all about Corey Feldman’s documentary that came out months ago? (2:28:22) I didn’t know there was one. See, exactly. I didn’t I didn’t know there was an Epstein one either.I didn’t know that there (2:28:28) was one. Wow. But I also I’m the kind of person that I you know, like, I don’t watch the news.I don’t like I don’t have (2:28:35) cable TV. So I just I don’t get on the internet except like to check the Dodger score. So you know, I don’t I don’t say I (2:28:46) don’t think my head’s in the sand.But I don’t I’d stay away from mainstream media because it’s just crap. It’s (2:28:54) leaving Neverland though. (2:28:56) Well, yeah, because I have HBO.I had HBO. Oh, they plug that. No, I will say I got sucked into that.I’m happy to. Yeah. (2:29:03) And it was out for a while before I finally was like, All right, I’ll frickin watch it.I didn’t I maybe Mark told me to (2:29:10) watch it. I don’t remember. It’s probably Mark’s fault.I’ll just hashtag Mark’s fault. So (2:29:16) well, you you guys you guys listen to that reaction that I had from it. Yeah, I’m not gonna lie that I was so disgusted after (2:29:24) hearing it.So real quick. I’m gonna say it. I said it for the first time in three podcasts.I said real quick. Yes. Okay.I (2:29:32) pulled up the Rotten Tomatoes score. So the audience me I’m sorry, let me do the critic or the tomato meter for leaving (2:29:39) Neverland is 98%. And the audience scores 24%.Yeah. Meanwhile, I jump on square one. There is no tomato meter (2:29:50) available.Oh, what a shock. Wow. Yeah, yeah.The audience score is 97%. Yep. So there you go.There’s one tomato (2:29:59) reviewer. Yeah. Oh, is there film threat? film threat? Yeah.Okay. Yeah. So I’m just saying it says tomato meter not (2:30:07) available on my website because there’s not sufficient enough amounts.But yeah, and shout out to film threat for (2:30:14) or they’re hiding it. Yeah, that’s very true. We’re suppressing it.Look, we get shadow banned, too. I mean, the shadow (2:30:20) banning is a real thing. It’s you know, but that should tell people something.You know, it’s like one of those things. (2:30:25) It’s like they don’t want you to know certain, you know, other side of something in that way. And if, if they were truly (2:30:31) honest, they’d be like, Okay, we’ll see both sides and then make your decision.But they don’t want that in that way. And I, (2:30:38) you know, I’ve had to see, you know, you know, all these movies, disgusting movies, you know, the Epstein one, and I said, (2:30:47) Olympic one, with Olympic gymnastic, you know, (2:30:52) Athlete A with Larry Nassar. (2:30:54) Yep.Yeah, that one. I’ve seen open the open an open secret. I’ve seen Corey Feldman’s, you know, documentary, My Truth.(2:31:02) Can you can you talk about that one? Corey Feldman? Obviously, I hadn’t heard of it. So please advertise it propose, you (2:31:07) know, share with our audience. We’d love to hear these places to go or these documentaries to watch.(2:31:13) Sure. He’s basically explaining about him and Corey Haim. And you know, how there’s Hollywood has a big problem with (2:31:21) pedophilia and how he wasn’t protected in Hollywood at all.And a lot of people know this, and know about the you know, (2:31:29) what’s going on, but is hiding it. And what’s the name of it again? I think it’s called my my truth. (2:31:37) My truth.And where can we find it? (2:31:39) He’s still my truth doc.com. Yeah. Okay. My truth.com. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll post a link to it as well.And if there’s any (2:31:48) links you guys want us to put, we’ll put them on the show notes as well. (2:31:51) And I think that’s amazing. Because, you know, people have accused Corey of wanting fame and fortune and all that stuff.(2:31:57) And he’s been consistent since I, as I said before, 93, you know, when he told the cops, you know, who had done this to (2:32:05) him and, and everything like that. And they didn’t even go after the people that because they were so, you know, driven (2:32:11) on Michael that they basically like, okay, okay, well, if it’s not Michael Jackson, we’re not interested. And, and, but (2:32:18) why say that is because the easiest thing for Corey Feldman to do if he really cared about fame and fortune was been (2:32:25) like, Michael touched me too.That’s all he would have to say. And he would be, you know, back in the spotlight and (2:32:32) given all that. Oh, yeah, I think they’d embrace him, everything, you know, and sell his story and blah, blah, blah.But (2:32:38) that’s why I, you know, I’ve always given Corey Feldman, you know, a lot of credit, because he’s easily had that (2:32:46) opportunity plenty of times people have even implied that to him. And he’s been consistent, consistent for last, you (2:33:02) know, that’s what I get for trying to do math, you know, in my head while I’m talking. But yeah, I think that’s the thing (2:33:08) that I would say is that, you know, easiest thing right now to do, which is, you know, would be for other people to pile (2:33:13) on.That’s what they’re expecting with this Michael Jackson. And that’s what Wade and James expected. They were (2:33:19) hoping that more people would just, you know, loosen their morals and being like, you know, okay, I’m going to get onto (2:33:26) this money train now, too.But they underestimated that, you know, not everyone is like them. Not everyone is that (2:33:33) shallow and in that way. And it’s actually backfired, because everyone they’ve approached has basically given them the (2:33:41) middle finger and said, Go away.You know, Michael’s not like that. (2:33:45) Yeah, it’s supposed to be like dozens of victims that were going to come forward after leaving Neverland. Where is one? (2:33:52) Well, that’s what their lawyer said.And, you know, in Radar Online, too. He said, there were, you know, there’s, you (2:33:59) know, 20, there’s 20 something victims, and he paid $200 million, you know, which is a fabrication, but it went (2:34:07) everywhere, you know, because they don’t have to prove anything. But it’s like, you know, then at the end of the day, (2:34:13) it’s like, okay, well, I’m waiting, you know, and where’s the one? (2:34:17) Well, this is thing, I think they’re waiting for the BAFTA award for most factual documentary series.Before they move (2:34:23) forward with their other cases. I mean, come on, this is like such a joke. I’m just sitting here laughing.I mean, this is (2:34:31) laughable, right? (2:34:31) Well, one thing the lawyer, their lawyer had was, I don’t even think people remember this. There was a Jane Doe (2:34:37) attached to Wade and James. You know, and once Leaving Neverland, you know, was announced, she disappeared, because (2:34:45) she didn’t fit the narrative.So (2:34:47) wow, that’s (2:34:49) mentioned in Leaving Neverland. (2:34:50) She’s not even mentioned. So there was a female, but because it doesn’t fit their narrative and Leaving Neverland, she (2:34:55) just disappeared.So I find that truly amazing. And, you know, it’s like, (2:35:00) that’s a crazy thing, right? It’s like, like, it’s funny, because documentaries now have an agenda going in. Oh, (2:35:06) yeah.And it’s like, that’s not what they do, right? Because it’s really ultimately the the evidence supports the (2:35:13) claim that he’s innocent, right? That’s where square one’s agenda is. But, you know, it would be nice for just to (2:35:20) say, I have a topic I want to look at, let me just gather all the information, throw it together, and then like, not (2:35:27) come up with a conclusion. (2:35:28) And let you make the conclusion.(2:35:29) Wouldn’t that be nice? (2:35:30) Yeah. (2:35:31) That’s what I think Danny did a really good job in that way. Because (2:35:35) I think he did.(2:35:36) Leaving Neverland ends with Stephanie saying he was a pedophile, where Leaving Neverland, it gives the Chandlers the (2:35:42) last word, you know, he never says, therefore, he’s innocent. It’s up to the viewer to decide. And I love the way Danny (2:35:50) did that.(2:35:50) Yeah. And to end on Danny’s point, I mean, we’d love we have an open invitation for Danny, if you guys ever want to come (2:35:57) on. And, you know, Taj, when you have your project or want to launch it again, we’d love to have you back on to promote (2:36:02) it however you like.Jess, you’re more than welcome at any time for you know, any subject you want to talk about. You (2:36:09) know what, I think we’re gonna have to record some Trump impressions. And we will use them, we’ll put them on our little (2:36:14) soundpad, for sure.Okay. And you were gonna say something, Taj, I’m sorry. (2:36:18) No, no, no, I was gonna say that’s one of the reasons I call it my my project, as opposed to a documentary is because I do (2:36:23) believe like in today’s world, documentaries are biased, you know, they, and especially coming from a family member, of (2:36:29) course, it’s going to be called biased.And so I’m not even gonna, you know, I’m not even gonna pretend to be, you know, (2:36:34) Oh, I mean, I get both sides, I’m just going to present the facts, I’m going to present the story. And, but I know it’s (2:36:41) going to be called biased anyway. So that’s why I’ve stayed away from the word documentary, because I’m still old school, I (2:36:47) think documentary should be, you know, kind of like, here’s the, it’s presented to you, and then you kind of come up with (2:36:53) your own conclusion.And so that’s not how it works now. So I don’t feel comfortable calling it a documentary. So that’s why I (2:36:59) call it a project.(2:37:01) And I think that’s a great, oh, go ahead, Jess. (2:37:03) I was, you get kind of stuck being labeled as pro Michael Jackson, because the truth is pro Michael Jackson. So you can’t (2:37:12) just say, Oh, it’s factual.But I mean, it that’s just how it is, like, the truth is on his side. It’s pro. So I’m sorry, but (2:37:18) that’s just how it is.(2:37:19) The evidence and the facts are and right. And that’s the thing in, you know, the the slogan facts don’t lie, people do. That (2:37:27) was something that was, you know, said in the press statement to the media that our family released, you know, one of the (2:37:36) quotes that I made, and it’s taken off, but it’s been it’s, it actually is very relevant to, you know, the situation in (2:37:47) general.It’s like, there’s, you know, for the amount of time Michael Jackson lived for someone that was probably one of (2:37:54) the most photographed and recorded people in history, one of the most famous people in history. And, you know, in terms of (2:38:01) staff and, and people that work for him or friends and all that stuff. And it’s like, there’s not one shred of evidence, you (2:38:09) know, an FBI, you know, FBI on and off investigating for 10 years, you know, illegals, I’m not an illegal search, but the (2:38:18) surprise, surprise search, you know, raids, I will call it Neverland, taking his computers, his six computers and not (2:38:26) finding one shred of evidence.You know, it’s like, at some point, you have to go, okay, you know, at some point, you know, (2:38:35) he’s not a pedophile, because, you know, they’ve, they’ve done this with Epstein, they’ve done this, even the guy from (2:38:41) Glee, when they took his computer, he had all this child porn on it. It’s like, (2:38:46) we’ll look at Jared from Subway. (2:38:48) And, and, you know, when the FBI zeroes in on you, they can find stuff really quickly, whether they do something or not (2:38:55) with it is another thing, but they find it very quickly.And they released all their paperwork on Michael Jackson, there’s (2:39:01) no evidence. And, and that’s the thing, they’re very efficient. And that bothers me, because it wasn’t like my uncle knew (2:39:08) they were investigating him.He had no clue. And so it’s like, they were following his every move, at times trying to find (2:39:15) something. And it’s just like, at some point, you have to go, okay, there’s logic involved in this.Do I believe these two guys (2:39:24) that, you know, at one point said Michael was innocent, one of them wanted to get married at Neverland, you know, with his, his (2:39:31) fiance, during the trial of 2005, you know, and, you know, the place that he supposedly got abused 100s of times, right, you (2:39:40) know, yeah, because that’s gonna erase that memory. It’s not gonna print it more, you know, and is doing tribute shows for him. (2:39:47) And, and the other guy, he also did something at Neverland, he did, I think it was a video or something, he went back to (2:39:54) Neverland and did a video this pre leaving Neverland.So he revisited Neverland, then he makes up a story about, you know, (2:40:01) a train station that doesn’t even exist for years later. And he’s rambling all these places like the movie theater and (2:40:08) swimming pool. I can tell you the jacuzzi in the swimming pool is was one of the most, you could see that place from 360 (2:40:15) degrees.Anyone that walked around the Neverland could see it. And so there was no, there was nothing hidden. There’s no (2:40:24) no, like for the end, but, but they rely on people’s, I shouldn’t say ignorance, but ignorance of Neverland, like, you (2:40:31) wouldn’t know that, right? They don’t know the blueprint of the land.You’re thinking, Oh, well, that’s a private jacuzzi. (2:40:35) That has to be our private pool. No, that was an open pool.And at the minimum, my uncle had at Neverland at a time would (2:40:43) probably be 30 people there. That was like, every once in a while, I have to do this, Taj, I have to do I go hello to the (2:40:49) world. Do you realize that Neverland was more like a resort than just like a house? (2:40:53) Yeah, they make it seem like he like he had the key to the gate.And it’s like, okay, let’s go in and like turn on the lights (2:41:00) and all that stuff. No, there are people always there. There are people that work there.My uncle hired former police (2:41:06) officers to be a security guard. You know, why would you do that? If you’re a child molester? Like, (2:41:11) yeah, I mean, the whole thing, the more you pick out, I mean, the more we look at, obviously, there’s just inconsistency (2:41:18) after inconsistency. I mean, we’re we’re almost three hours in.Are there any other thoughts? Any? Anything else? You (2:41:25) guys? Yeah, it’s like a time warp in this place, guys. I’m looking at I’m looking at 242. And I think I think square one was (2:41:32) 89 minutes.So we’re at 162 minutes. We’re approaching leaving. We’re almost double.Yeah, like, we’re approaching leaving (2:41:38) Neverland, which is totally fine by me. I’m really enjoying the conversation. I you know, if there’s anything more personal (2:41:43) about you guys, and obviously, I think we’ll probably have a follow up at some point down the road, maybe if we get Danny on (2:41:49) and all, you know, the four of us or five of us get on.But are there any other final thoughts that you have Taj or (2:41:55) anything else you want to share? (2:41:56) No, as I said before, I just really appreciate the opportunity. You know, I can ramble a lot I get excited because, you (2:42:04) know, every opportunity is a chance for at least me to, you know, share who my uncle truly was. And you know, let the (2:42:11) viewers at least make that educated, like, hey, let’s go down this rabbit hole.Let’s learn more about them. That’s all I (2:42:17) ask. I don’t ask for anything else.But, you know, just be fair, like you’ve heard one side. Now here the other and square (2:42:23) one’s a great way of getting to that point. (2:42:27) Yeah, that’s a really good point.And if I may kind of jump on that back real quick is I remember Amy Winehouse and how she (2:42:35) was portrayed in her last year or two of her life. She was this drunk diva that didn’t care and didn’t want to do anything. And (2:42:43) then I watched the Amy documentary.And it and once again, it it gave me another angle it you know, obviously, you’ve got (2:42:50) three sides to every story, got your side, their side and the truth, right. But it does shine another light on to the, the (2:42:57) struggle and that just the pain. (2:43:00) And that way, and you then there’s one effective thing in that where I saw like, there’s a bunch of comedians making jokes (2:43:06) about her at her worst time.(2:43:09) Yeah, and they and they were the one like Jay Leno made a joke about her a week after she was on his show doing her song that (2:43:14) they made her do rehab over and over and over again. And she was a struggling artist. I mean, she was troubled and they just piled (2:43:21) on.So I can’t imagine the target that Michael had on his back. Yeah. And you know, being the king of pop.Yeah. So are there (2:43:31) any other final thoughts or things before we call it a day? Once again, open invitation. If you guys have something you want to (2:43:36) share, feel free to reach out to us.You can email us directly and we’ll we’ll definitely talk with you some more. (2:43:42) No, just as I said, I’m just super appreciative. And, you know, for and for to your audience, you know, thank you for listening to (2:43:49) me.I ramble, but at the same time, you know, I’m extremely passionate about this. And you can find out all this information (2:43:58) online. And it’s not something that we’re making conclusions to or jumping, jumping to conclusions to this stuff that you can (2:44:05) find court documents or, you know, things that are definitely facts.And that as opposed to just like hypotheticals. (2:44:14) That’s awesome. How about you, Jess? Do you have any final thoughts or anything? (2:44:20) Um, I would say, well, since this is going to air on the 28th, happy early birthday to Michael Jackson.He would have been (2:44:28) 62. I believe. (2:44:31) Yes, 58.He was born and happy belated birthday to Taj. You were August 4th, Taj. (2:44:36) Yes, I was.No, yes. (2:44:38) I mean, happy birthday. (2:44:40) Yeah, thank you.Thank you. I actually had to look to see how old I was. Because I, I honestly, after like a certain age after I (2:44:47) think 27, I stopped counting.So (2:44:49) I think I stopped after like 10. Yeah, just make it easy. Yeah.And Jess, anything else? Did you have anything else? (2:44:56) I did have one last question for Taj. It was kind of, it’s kind of out of the blue. But are you cool if I just go with it? (2:45:03) Yeah.(2:45:04) Cool. (2:45:08) That was it. (2:45:12) That was it? (2:45:13) That was it.(2:45:14) That’s a great question. I mean, I’ll tell you really quick about the song is, you know, that was a song that was supposed to be on (2:45:21) his album, and he had too many songs. And so we got that song just out of, he just gave it to us.But it was only he only had his (2:45:30) backgrounds on it. And whatever. And, you know, we’ve never asked him to do a song with us.We’ve never asked him to do a duet with (2:45:37) us. It’s he’s, he just gave it to us. And it was one of the greatest gifts that we could have, you know, I mean, who wouldn’t want (2:45:43) Michael Jackson on their album? (2:45:45) Right? (2:45:45) You know, (2:45:46) yeah, so that was Jess’s little fun thing.She wanted to just (2:45:52) learn those lyrics, by the way. I mean, because it’s those lyrics are very tricky. And I still have to (2:45:58) end the pace.Yeah, the tempo was off because we were going to do the whole four part of that. And I just told her, let’s just do the (2:46:04) first line because there’s no way (2:46:06) I was like, Mark, I gotta do this. (2:46:10) In advance, but traffic, you know, (2:46:12) I was able to I was able to record it.So (2:46:14) hey, so guys, please stay on. Because what we’re gonna do is we’re gonna shoot the outro music and then but stay on so we can just (2:46:21) talk after. Sure.But once again, thank you so much for this special episode of square one documentary insight with Taj (2:46:30) Jackson and Jess Garcia. (2:46:32) Thank you guys very much. Really, I really appreciate your time.Thank you. (2:46:35) Thank you guys. (2:46:36) Thank you guys.We’re so grateful. And we’re just gonna cut it out and we’ll catch you guys later.