Ariela Moscowitz of Decriminalize Sex Work (https://decriminalizesex.work/)

Mark welcomes Ariela Moscowitz of Decriminalize Sex Work for an interesting conversation.
Website: https://decriminalizesex.work/
X: @DecrimSex
Outro: ”Goodnight, Sweetheart, Goodnight” – This score is in public domain and may be freely downloaded, printed, and performed. The sound file may be downloaded for personal use. For more information see https://lincolnlibraries.org/polley-music-library/

Transcript:

(0:00) Hey everybody. (0:00) And welcome to another episode of Knocked Conscious today. (0:04) I had the pleasure of speaking with Ariella Moskowitz.(0:07) She’s the director of communications for decriminalize sex work at (0:12) decriminalize sex dot work. (0:14) It was a very interesting conversation. (0:16) We talked about a lot of topics.(0:18) I learned a lot about the topic as a whole. (0:21) Here it is. (0:22) I hope you enjoy it.(0:26) Hi everybody. (0:26) I have Ariella Moskowitz with me. (0:29) She is the director of communications with decriminalize sex work.(0:35) The website is decriminalize sex dot work. (0:40) Ariella, welcome to Knocked Conscious. (0:43) I met your team at freedom fest this year, but I understand you were (0:46) not there, so we did not cross paths.(0:48) Tell me about yourself. (0:49) Welcome. (0:49) I’d love to hear about, uh, everything.(0:52) So start at where you’d like to start and we’ll certainly have (0:54) a great conversation about it. (0:56) Yeah. (0:56) I’m looking forward to it.(0:57) Well, I’m thrilled to finally meet you. (0:58) I heard wonderful things from my coworkers and colleagues (1:01) who were at freedom fest. (1:03) Um, a great, you know, conference every year.(1:07) We have a presence as I was saying, I got to go for two years. (1:12) I went to my first freedom fest was in South Dakota. (1:15) Um, it was the first convening, um, you know, in South (1:19) Dakota had fewest restrictions.(1:21) I did get COVID on that trip for the first time. (1:25) Um, but then we returned to Vegas and in all our glory. (1:28) And I, you know, made it to Mount Rushmore on that trip things.(1:31) I never thought I would get to do. (1:33) Um, did you go to the Vegas one in the Mirage two years ago? (1:37) Yes. (1:37) It must’ve been at the Mirage.(1:39) Were you there? (1:40) That’s actually my first freedom fest experience. (1:42) I was actually with my girlfriend having dinner at (1:44) Colicchio’s at the Mirage. (1:46) We weren’t even planning.(1:47) And all of a sudden like Steve Forbes walked by and I’m like, (1:50) what the heck Steve Forbes is doing? (1:51) And then I looked up and like all the signage and I looked at her and I said, (1:55) I’m going to be here in two years. (1:56) And then I got media credentials. (1:58) So I was really happy.(1:59) So, so decriminalize sex work. (2:01) I watched a podcast years. (2:03) I understand that you are not, you’ve never been part of the sex work field.(2:09) Is that correct? (2:10) You were never been a sex worker. (2:14) Um, I will just point out, you know, it is, it is a lot to ask somebody, you (2:20) know, kind of publicly whether or not they have been a sex worker. (2:24) I’m, I’m perfectly comfortable answering, um, that I don’t have (2:28) lived experience as a sex worker.(2:30) The, the ways. (2:31) And the only reason I asked, I apologize. (2:33) I only asked that because I saw it on the other podcast and you would not (2:38) normally do it in this way.(2:39) I only, I only, and I apologize if I came across, I could tell that you were (2:44) somebody who could be receptive to what I was about to tell you, which, you know, (2:49) because of stigmatization and criminalization and the reasons we are (2:54) here to talk about these issues. (2:56) It’s a really difficult thing to, to ask someone, but I’m glad you asked, you (3:00) know, we were talking about Freedom Fest in South Dakota, um, the decriminalization (3:05) of, uh, consensual adult sex work kind of goes hand in hand with, um, putting (3:12) the fewest restrictions possible on people’s lives and kind of accepting (3:18) where we are in, in reality and, and not forcing people to conform to theories (3:25) and, and outdated notions of ideology and morality that we have. (3:30) So, you know, a lot of words to say, um, you know, that the decriminalization (3:37) of consensual adult sex work is one of the most common sense, vital harm (3:42) reduction measures I can think of.(3:44) You know, we’ll just start at the top. (3:46) Um, sex work is not inherently exploitative or dangerous. (3:51) It is the criminalization and the stigmatization of it, which go hand (3:56) in hand that make it dangerous because our society criminalizes sex work.(4:00) And therefore the individuals engaged in it, they are pushed to the (4:04) margins where they’re vulnerable, where we put them, where we make them vulnerable. (4:10) And then we say, Hey, look at your bad choices, look what you did. (4:14) And we’re gonna, we’re gonna fix it by arresting you.(4:19) Um, and that goes both for the sex worker themselves and, and for the fire. (4:24) And we, we’re, we can go into all the different theories, you know, (4:28) around this regarding policies. (4:30) Um, but the bottom line is that the decriminalization of consensual adult (4:35) sex work is how we can best eliminate violence and exploitation in the sex trade.(4:42) Right now, you know, as we get into a policy discussion, you’ll hear about (4:47) how a lot of, uh, we call it the, the establishment anti-trafficking (4:54) movement, um, which are a number of organizations involved in spreading (4:59) a moral panic right around what trafficking is, um, spoiler alert. (5:06) They’re, they’re wrong. (5:08) And their, their inability to see the reality of the world, you know, aside (5:14) from the lens they would like to see it through is putting the very people (5:17) they are saying they want to help in, in further danger.(5:21) Um, I’ll let you ask me a question there and then I can kind of go (5:25) back to the beginning a little bit. (5:27) Well, and that was perfect. (5:29) Yes.(5:29) And I would love to go to the beginning. (5:30) So this, this is the thing. (5:31) The reason I ask these types of questions, what I find interesting is I, if you (5:36) can show your work, if people can show me how they got to where they got, whether (5:41) it’s through that personal experience or something, that is how I think we’re (5:44) able to show others so that they can have a different perspective.(5:49) A lot of these, a lot of these back and forths are like, no, you’re wrong. (5:53) No, you’re right. (5:54) No, you’re wrong.(5:54) And it’s, it’s not about this. (5:56) Okay. (5:56) You have this, this is your stance, decriminalize sex work.(6:01) Now you just told me all of these things about it. (6:03) Now that obviously comes from experience from data you researched. (6:07) So I’d love to hear, wind it back to like how you first came across this, how this (6:12) touched, how this touched you, like your heart, obviously, because you clearly (6:17) have compassion and want to help.(6:20) Thank you for that question. (6:21) You know, I do, I’ll just stop and say quickly here for the most part, the (6:26) voices that we want to put forward are people who themselves, you know, have (6:31) been engaged in sex work or, and, or who have been victims of exploitation and (6:37) trafficking, you know, those are the, the two groups that there’s a lot more (6:41) crossover than people like to think about. (6:45) But I do do, you know, these kinds of big general broad discussions where I can lay (6:52) out some of the theory and kind of the, you know, the zoom, the zoomed out view, (6:56) because I am the one sitting in the dark somewhere reading lots of research and (7:01) writing about it.(7:03) But I’ll tell you, (7:03) Hey, you have to communicate. (7:05) I hear, I hear that’s part of your work. (7:06) yeah, yeah, I do communicate professionally.(7:09) I talk a lot. (7:10) You may have already become aware of this. (7:14) So, but yeah, as I said, by the time it gets to be 730, it’s been a lot of talking for the (7:18) day already, but I’ll, I’ll try to zoom in quickly on how this became an issue on my (7:24) radar, you know, cause really I can only speak to, to my experience.(7:30) So I always grew up involved in social justice. (7:35) My parents were both attorneys. (7:38) That was something they instilled in us that when you have the opportunity to, to (7:43) give back, to, to lift another one up, when you have that, that free time in your space (7:49) and, you know, in your mind and in your life, you, you do what you can.(7:53) So it was always geared kind of towards a helping profession. (7:56) And I’m also an older, you know, first, I’m a first daughter. (8:00) So there’s lots of, lots of stuff there, but I graduated college, I graduated college (8:06) with a major in psychology and a minor in women’s studies.(8:12) I’m old enough that it was women’s studies and not gender studies. (8:15) And throughout my years in high school and during college, I volunteered nonstop in (8:22) domestic violence shelters and in homeless shelters for men, women, children, you know, (8:27) anyone needing assistance. (8:29) My first job after college, I moved to Philadelphia and my first job was in a court (8:38) mandated drug rehab program.(8:41) So people would, you know, accept a reduced sentence in exchange for attending mandatory (8:47) treatment. Another thing I kind of thought sounded great at the outset, you know, (8:52) as we all know, when we know better, we do better. (8:57) And my work there led me to a wonderful organization called People’s Emergency Center in (9:03) Philadelphia.I don’t, you know, you said you’re from there. (9:06) It’s a wonderful community development organization and place for unhoused women and (9:13) children to land. (9:14) And I spent a couple of years working with families in West Philadelphia.(9:21) And I really, my office was in an apartment building in West Philadelphia. (9:27) So I was in these families lives and my job was to connect them to services as much as (9:33) possible as they, you know, some of them had had jobs and lost them. (9:39) There were various reasons people had ended up, you know, in the shelter and then (9:44) transitional housing and then emergency housing.(9:46) It became very clear to me very quickly, you know, and all these things are crystallizing (9:51) that the systems we force people to operate within in this system, in this country, are, (10:00) you know, it’s the fancy words we have for structural violence, systemic violence. (10:04) We set people up to fail and then we punish them when they do. (10:09) So I. (10:11) We talk about government, like government creates, you know, solves the problem that it (10:16) initially creates through these weird things, you know, it’s it’s crazy because a buddy of (10:22) mine says no one’s born a libertarian.(10:24) And that’s so true because you speak to that point is sex work is a private act that (10:30) literally is a consensual agreement between whoever’s involved. (10:35) And that has no bearing, does not affect anyone else besides those people in that. (10:41) Correct.But well, I’ll explain why people think it does, you know, and also we, you (10:48) know, we try to legislate morality all the time. (10:51) The issue with this is not only is it is the, quote unquote, morality actually putting (10:57) people in danger. It’s such an outdated notion of morality.(11:00) It’s such a silly place to kind of try to keep people down. (11:05) But anyways, I it became. (11:07) And then it becomes a business because there’s court fees and all these, I mean, the (11:11) prison system, you get that labor for very cheap.(11:14) I mean, there’s so many other parts of that down the road that it goes. (11:18) Absolutely. So I will tell you time and time again in those couple of years, there’s one (11:23) particular story that sticks in my mind.(11:25) But time and time again, I went on Monday morning to visit women who had been arrested (11:30) over the weekend, whose children and they had been arrested over the weekend for (11:36) prostitution. These were women who. (11:41) Doing whatever they could to get their, you know, quote unquote, their lives together.(11:45) Right. And because, again, of the situations we put people in when they have to make (11:51) certain choices that we don’t like, we then punish them further. (11:54) There was one particular woman, I haven’t told the story in a couple of years now at this (12:01) point, but I’ll try to get it right.(12:04) She had three children. (12:06) I knew her for two years before she was arrested and she was doing anything within her (12:15) power to keep her children together, to keep a roof over her head. (12:21) And most of her day was spent running around to various government offices that would (12:26) then send her to another.(12:27) Right. But if she didn’t go get them to sign her little paper, like you were in the wrong (12:32) line, you got to fill out this form, get the yellow form, you got to fill that out, get the (12:35) red stamp from the blue place in the yellow building. (12:38) Yeah.But like across town, you know, so like it’s a complete scape. (12:44) It’s like a like a snipe hunt or like a scavenger hunt. (12:47) And this is just for the bare minimum.(12:49) So there’s no time in the day to earn an income for anything else that you might need for (12:55) your children, which newsflash, you need a lot. (12:59) And so she did sex work on the weekends and that was, you know, I I’m pretty sure if (13:05) memories are incorrect, that was not something that we could discuss with anyone else. (13:09) It was kind of, you know, if the program had and I mentioned the name of the program, (13:14) it’s wonderful.This is not a knock on them. (13:16) But that was not something that it still is not something that unless you are working (13:21) with an organization that focuses specifically on sex workers, nobody can nobody knows (13:27) what to do with it. And they’re terrified by it instead of just treating people like (13:31) humans.Anyways, she was a wonderful mother. (13:34) She was doing what she could. (13:37) She could not work normal hours to earn extra income, because as I just described to (13:44) you, her full time job was running around town to the various government offices that (13:48) she was forced to run around to.(13:50) And the attention you’re even talking about is not just the money and the means for (13:54) providing clothes, food and everything. (13:55) How about the time of being with your child? (13:59) You know, you don’t even get that either because she’s running around doing these (14:02) things. (14:03) And and sex work, you know, we’ll go back to the what for us feels like a cliche, but (14:07) we’re still always explaining to people sex work is work.(14:10) And like any job, it was the job she chose that best suited her circumstances at that (14:18) time. You know, if she had been able to work full time during the day, maybe she (14:22) wouldn’t have turned to sex work. (14:24) But she did.That’s neither here nor there. (14:26) And it’s and it’s really nobody’s business, right? (14:29) On top of even the broader scale, it’s like she’s making a living. (14:33) Her means are providing.(14:35) They’re not affecting, you know, I would assume the children are not involved and (14:38) there’s nothing with that. (14:39) So this is OK, right? (14:41) This is this is adult world. (14:43) This is adult work world in which she would, you know, make provisions.(14:48) She was a single mother, too. (14:51) You know, if you I am I’m a single mother. (14:54) It’s really hard.(14:56) It’s really, really hard. (14:57) And if you don’t have family and if you don’t have, you know, outside help, but she (15:02) would make provisions. (15:04) She would not leave.A lot of people would leave their children unattended. (15:07) This woman in particular never did. (15:09) And she was it was either a Friday or Saturday night.(15:14) And. She was assaulted by, you know, we say that criminal criminalization allows bad (15:22) actors to pose as clients, so she was not assaulted by a client, she was assaulted by (15:27) somebody who knew under the guise of criminality he would have easy access to a (15:32) woman who society had cast aside anyways. (15:36) So luckily enough, she was attacked, but she was able to get out of his home.(15:41) She had to break a window. (15:43) There was property damage. (15:44) I don’t remember the details.(15:46) The cops at some point when she was walking back from, you know, had left on foot (15:51) walking home, cops stopped her and she was arrested for prostitution because he had (15:56) called to report the the damage. (15:59) This was late. (16:00) You know, this is a perfect storm.(16:01) This was late on a Saturday night. (16:03) So she was not going to see a judge until Monday morning. (16:07) She was not.Can you can you say that again? (16:09) It cut out. So she was assaulted by this gentleman and then she fought back. (16:13) She was assaulted and or felt unsafe, you know, for some reason, which happens because (16:19) people, sex workers are not able to do the things they need to do to keep themselves (16:24) safe because of criminalization.(16:25) And we’ll touch on that in a second. (16:27) And we’re getting there. (16:29) It’s like a good Samaritans walking with a sex worker because that stigma that you’re (16:33) talking about, it’s like, why am I going to protect a sex worker? (16:36) They’re just well, we will talk about your society.(16:40) We’ll talk about why sex workers need immunity laws in a little bit. (16:43) But whatever it was, whatever it was, a window had been broken or something. (16:48) She was she’d gotten out.(16:50) And because of the property damage, he called the cops to report whatever it was. (16:55) You know, who knows what was said? (16:57) What happened? She was arrested for prostitution because of the way the criminal legal (17:00) system works in this country. (17:02) That was late on a Saturday night.(17:05) For whatever reason, she didn’t get her phone call. (17:07) She couldn’t reach her mom. (17:09) By the time she saw a judge on Monday morning and could connect with me and with her (17:14) family, the babysitter had reported the children as abandoned to DCF.(17:20) They were they there’s no way for her to contact anyone. (17:24) Right. It’s not like she could contact them.(17:26) No. And this woman thought she was coming home that night. (17:29) So she’s not.You know, these are things people take for granted that your babysitter. (17:34) Anyways, so her kids were taken away because DCF got involved. (17:39) And now this woman, again, with with the systems, this woman was only eligible for (17:46) housing with her children.(17:48) That was the deal was housing for women with children. (17:51) So when she doesn’t have her children, she lost her housing. (17:55) But then if you don’t have a home, how do you get your job? (17:59) Right.How do you get the kids? (18:01) How do you get a job? (18:02) Right. So all that happened from this arrest was this woman and homeless again, this (18:11) time without her children. (18:13) Her children ended up in the system.(18:15) And and why? (18:16) Because she needed to supplement her income and chose a job that if society had (18:22) allowed her the it’s not even allowing. (18:27) It’s just it’s just not messing with something that doesn’t need to be messed with. (18:32) I mean, it goes we talk about prohibition and, you know, we with alcohol, we prohibition (18:38) makes people do terrible things.(18:42) And so the government poisoned alcohol during prohibition. (18:47) The government poisoned its own American citizens in the alcohol during prohibition to (18:52) try to get people to stop. (18:54) They poisoned a number of people to death.(18:56) This is how our government interferes. (18:58) This is how they help. (18:59) The government does terrible things.(19:01) Yes. Well, people, you know, do terrible things to each other when they’re on, you (19:06) know, pushed into the dark and people aren’t allowed to come out of the shadows and ask (19:10) for help. It also, you know, if we want to draw the parallel of poisoning the alcohol, (19:15) police sexual violence towards sex workers is a huge issue.(19:20) I mean, same. It’s aligned with the parallels, the criminalization, decriminalization of (19:25) marijuana, for example, you know, as a candidate, you know, with cannabis and things like (19:28) that. So that that is all supremely interesting.(19:32) And so so this this woman loses her children. (19:34) She loses her house, can’t get the children back because she lost the house and can’t get (19:38) these other. And it just snowballs down.(19:40) All that being able to arrest her for prostitution did was, you know, set her and and (19:46) you know what? And I just I I wonder I wonder where she is now and I wonder what what (19:55) could have been different. And there was nothing that I could do. (19:59) I you know, I don’t know what I thought I might have been able to do.(20:01) But with all the access to resources and and letters and bail money and I couldn’t get (20:07) her kids back and went on through the years working in domestic violent shelters. (20:13) And then landed at a nonprofit immigration law firm because there’s no right to an (20:27) attorney and immigration proceedings. (20:29) So, you know, even three year old children are forced to represent them in Arizona.(20:33) So I’m a border town. (20:35) So I’m a border state. (20:36) So I’m very at least familiar with with the things that are going on and how the crimes (20:42) are at the border.I mean, there’s a lot of things that are going on. (20:43) I mean, the border agents, there’s there’s criminal sex workers trafficking through (20:48) there. And so that was another kind of awakening for me, you know, awakening is the (20:56) wrong word.But. (20:59) When people are pushed out of the traditional labor force for any reason, whether it’s (21:03) lack of immigration status, lack of employment, discrimination because they’re (21:07) transgender or disabled, they sex work is often a job that makes the most sense for (21:13) them. And if you don’t have you aren’t giving people the right to work in this country (21:19) legally, you know, they are going to turn to the informal labor sector.(21:24) And sex work is one of those places. (21:27) Criminalizing sex work there is what allows trafficking and exploitation to proliferate. (21:33) I mean, that’s what it allows it everywhere.(21:35) But you see it so clearly when you talk about foreign nationals and labor trafficking and. (21:41) Eighty percent, you know, the number might even be higher now. (21:45) I haven’t looked in a couple of months, but at a minimum, 80 percent of trafficking that (21:49) takes place around the world is in industries other than commercial sex.(21:54) So we’re talking about hospitality. (21:56) We’re talking about agriculture. (21:59) We’re talking about labor, physical labor is one.(22:02) I mean, I remember Qatar hosting the FIFA soccer and the hundreds of people that died (22:08) that were coming, that were slave labor coming into the thing, building the stadiums for (22:13) the soccer games. I remember working. (22:17) And when I say I worked at a nonprofit law firm, I was never a lawyer during any of this (22:23) time, but I worked in direct service at all the shelters.(22:26) And then I legal adjacent. (22:29) Always, and then was in development communications there, I feel like I should just make (22:35) it clear that I am not holding myself out to be a lawyer, but I was just talking about (22:41) the unaccompanied minors that we would represent there, too. (22:46) There would be 15 year olds whose parents were desperate to get them to a family member, (22:51) not even younger, too, in Central and South America, desperate to get them away from (22:56) gangs.And so they send them to a family member here. (23:00) Well, because our immigration system, along with many of our other systems, is also so (23:04) screwed up. There was no way for these people to get out of desperate situations other (23:09) than to reach the border and say, I need help or to turn to a smuggler.(23:16) Smugglers hold people and make them work to pay their debt back. (23:21) It’s what we call debt bondage. (23:22) And I get so worked up talking about this because these are the things that people (23:28) aren’t paying attention to because they’re being fed a false narrative of what sex (23:32) trafficking is.(23:35) And all of the misdirected energy and resources that are (23:41) disproportionately funneled to fight, quote, unquote, sex trafficking and to fight it in (23:45) the wrong ways are being funneled away from all these other industries because people (23:50) want to talk about sex, right? (23:52) It’s the most until they don’t. (23:54) But when sex, drugs and rock and roll, it’s the most salacious. (23:59) And, you know, I live in Miami where we see people all the time talking about sex (24:04) trafficking, but nobody wants to talk about what’s going on in the fields 10 miles (24:08) south of us.And again, you know, (24:13) it is the fact that I have to remind people of this when I talk about it blows my mind. (24:17) But we’re not diminishing trafficking into commercial (24:22) sex at all, where and when it happens. (24:25) It is one of the most horrific human rights abuses.(24:28) And traffickers should be. (24:31) Still a criminal act, that labor like that, obviously, it has nothing to do with the what (24:36) the labor for. (24:38) It’s a criminal act to traffic.(24:40) Correct. You know what I mean? (24:41) So I think we’re aligned that the trafficking is the illegality. (24:44) Well, right.So we want to go back to kind of want to go back to sex work. (24:50) One on one for a moment. (24:51) We talk about it as existing on a spectrum from choice to circumstance to (24:56) coercion.And I guess we should just define trafficking. (25:00) Trafficking is compelling another individual to do something against their will (25:05) through force, fraud or coercion, whether it’s sex, whether it’s forcing them to (25:10) work in the fields while you hold on to their passport. (25:12) You know, I spent years working in domestic violence shelters as well.(25:18) And, you know, taken and movies like that are really have really done society a (25:24) disservice because most of the trafficking into commercial (25:31) sex really kind of appears more like intimate partner violence. (25:36) Right. And again, the root causes of trafficking are systemic (25:41) vulnerabilities.(25:43) So if you seem to be like a grooming aspect with young people at first, you know (25:48) what I mean? It doesn’t seem to be like a I’m grabbing you. (25:51) You know, there’s a Stockholmian aspect. (25:54) They don’t.There are enough vulnerable people, sadly, that nobody needs to be (25:58) plucking white girls from the mall in Minnesota. (26:01) I’m not saying it hasn’t happened, but it’s not. (26:04) No, absolutely.Yeah. Yeah. (26:06) It’s not where we need to be turning our attention.(26:08) And nobody is looking at the root causes, which are the systemic and structural (26:14) violence and inequities that make people vulnerable. (26:17) So as you just said, you know, sadly, a really common example is or (26:23) common refrain is a transgender child who is forced out of their home by their (26:28) family or for whatever reason, loses kind of their social and familial connections. (26:34) And they somebody, you know, they meet somebody who’s nice and who takes them out (26:40) to dinner and who buys them things anyone would like.(26:44) And it’s a nice relationship. (26:45) Gives them attention, makes them feel special. (26:48) There’s.And at a certain point, you know, they will compel them to do things. (26:54) And so it’s not, you know, again, instead of a rough I’m going to let you ask me a (27:00) question. Oh, no, please continue.(27:02) This is I love this because I have a couple of questions, but I they’re very weird (27:07) because I ask odd questions that I haven’t heard before. (27:11) We’re on the defense so much, which so I find myself being defensive, I realize even (27:18) when I don’t necessarily have to be. (27:20) But I guess I’ll tell you a little bit about that shows your passion, though.(27:24) So I like to call it passionate versus defense, because the thing is, you have to (27:28) because you remember there’s a force acting against your cause. (27:32) Whatever your cause is, anybody’s cause you have to hit, not with equal force (27:37) because you won’t move the needle, you won’t move the window. (27:40) So you have to kind of overcompensate a little bit.(27:43) Well, I’m going to get a little bit over passionate and get emotion. (27:46) You know, that’s the whole point, though, because you show that. (27:50) Yeah, we’re fighting.(27:51) You know, we’re fighting the same battle. (27:53) And actually it’s getting it’s getting even harder at the moment for a number of (27:59) reasons. But I think now maybe I’ll touch on some of the actual policy things we’re (28:04) seeing and kind of models for governing sex work.(28:06) So people even have a, you know, can have a reference point for what we’re asking for, (28:11) what we did delve right in. (28:14) So there are four models. (28:19) For governing sex work that are predominant around the I shouldn’t say predominant that (28:23) exists around the world, criminalism, both the buying and selling of sex is (28:28) criminalized.Legalization, the buying and (28:34) selling of sex is regulated by the government. (28:38) Well, it’ll be licensed. (28:39) Do you have a receipt? You pay taxes.(28:42) Perhaps a good moment to point out lots of sex workers pay taxes even while it’s not (28:46) legalized. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. (28:48) I’m sure you’re 1099, right? (28:50) Or not you, but a collective view of the sex workers out there.(28:55) And a lot of sex work, it’s a good you know what, Mark? (28:57) We should go back to some definitions. (28:59) You don’t want to take any of this for granted because a lot of let’s do it. (29:02) Yeah, let’s let’s make let’s make this as accessible to all, because this is really (29:07) important that people understand what it is you’re advocating.(29:11) Right. So. (29:13) I’ll just mention the two more governing frameworks, which are decriminalization, the (29:18) removal of all penalties for buying or selling sex, and then the fourth is the the (29:25) policy model that goes by many names.(29:27) We call it the entrapment model, the Nordic model, Swedish model and demand model (29:32) rebranded in the US insidiously as the equality model. (29:37) And what this model does is it removes penalties for selling sex. (29:41) It keeps and or increases penalties for buying sex.(29:46) And so when you hear the name and demand model that comes from this theory that and (29:52) this is second wave prohibitionist feminists, this is their model and their theory that (29:58) if they arrest enough clients, sex go away. (30:02) And the equality model, that term comes from this really outdated, dangerous kind of. (30:11) Notion that they perpetuate that all sex workers are women and all buyers are men, and (30:17) so therefore there cannot be equality between the sexes, that’s kind of where that (30:22) was born.And now they’ve stretched that to other places. (30:27) But let’s go back to some definitions for a second. (30:29) So sex work really quickly on that, if I may.(30:32) So they were only going to criminalize the buyers, but not the sellers of the sex. (30:35) And they would think, oh, if they get rid of the demand, the supply will go away. (30:40) OK, so don’t worry where we where we left off was the entrapment model.(30:44) And I’m going to go way back to that. (30:46) That’s like what we’re talking about next. (30:48) That’s where I go.Perfect. (30:49) The entrapment model. So basically what I was saying was that’s like when when New York (30:54) started charging extra for like sugary drinks, like you’re going to stop drinking (30:58) sugary drinks just because you’re going to you know, it’s going to stop the urge to do (31:02) that.Right. (31:03) But it’s it’s a step further than that. (31:06) It’s like going into a liquor store and the person can sell me the liquor, but I’m (31:13) going to be arrested for buying it.(31:14) Well, what does it make the person who has to sell the liquor do then? (31:18) They’re the ones who now are at your mercy. (31:22) So it’s wild that their system and their idea for eradicating commercial sex, which we (31:29) know will never happen. (31:30) Right.So it’s like a fool’s errand. (31:31) They are literally punishing people and making it more dangerous for them while they (31:37) are telling people that they can end commercial sex. (31:41) And policy wise, we’re in battling it out right now in New York, in Massachusetts.(31:50) In Maine, the entrapment model folks won and they enacted entrapment model policy (31:56) there 16 months ago last summer. (32:00) So, you know, remains to be seen how many suffer there because of that. (32:05) But let me just start with even the definition for sex work and then I’m going to tell (32:11) you more about the entrapment.(32:13) So, you know, it’s it’s it’s important to remind people that a lot of sex work itself (32:19) is legal. (32:22) Stripping, camming, porn, all of those things fall under the umbrella term of sex work. (32:28) When we’re talking about decriminalization, we are most frequently talking about (32:33) prostitution, which is, you know, what it’s called in the in the law.(32:38) And it’s, you know, direct service, sex work, full contact, you know, those are other (32:45) terms you will hear. (32:46) So I guess that’s a good it’s a good I’m going to go back to legalization for a moment (32:52) so people understand that and then we’ll delve into entrapment model stuff. (32:59) So legalization, as you know, we said earlier, would be the imposition of rules and (33:05) regulations to the commercial sex industry, which is not in and of itself a bad thing.(33:12) The issue is where there is only legalization, but not decriminalization. (33:17) The same people who are left out of the traditional labor force for a lot of reasons are (33:21) still left out in the cold and they’re literally left out in the cold because, as we said (33:27) earlier, there’s nothing inherently dangerous about sex work. (33:30) It’s that there are these laws and the stigma around it.(33:34) So then you have with the legalization, like you said, there’d be licensing. (33:37) So you’d have to follow all of those qualifications to be actually legal anyway. (33:43) And if you miss one of the steps, you’re not legal.(33:45) If you don’t get the acceptance, you know, I’m sure the licensing would require, you (33:50) know, they would have to qualify you or they’d have to actually approve. (33:52) Well, I can tell you what it does require, because legalization exists in a couple of (33:57) rural counties in Nevada where people get it wrong. (34:01) You know, they think prostitution is legal around Nevada.(34:05) It’s not. It’s legalized in these brothels, in these very, very rural counties. (34:11) And Las Vegas, at least with the last year’s data, Nevada, you know, had the highest rate (34:18) of arrests for prostitution per capita of anywhere else in the country.(34:22) So that tells you what legalization does for the others operating, you know, outside of (34:27) it, which is why a lot of people have to turn to sex work in the first place. (34:30) But these brothels, you know, women who choose to work there, they have to comply with (34:37) these owners, a lot of times rules and regulations. (34:40) There’s also a lot of benefit to people who want to work in a licensed brothel because (34:46) sex work is criminalized.(34:48) Again, that gives owners a lot more leverage than they should have over people who want (34:54) to organize and work together. (34:55) So, again, legalization where we haven’t also decriminalized is a problem. (35:01) And to that point, if I may, that on a business side, just on the economic side, that (35:05) they’re writing in legislation for current business owners who already have the power (35:11) and already are in the business, who don’t need to make extra payments to adjust to these (35:16) new regulations.They put new ones in to keep other businesses or, to your point, keep (35:20) other groups from getting together to even create their own businesses to counter those. (35:25) Right. Well, it’s funny because we find that the regulations are written now to more to (35:29) keep other businesses out, to keep competition out, not actually for the safety and (35:34) security of people.(35:35) Right. Once you’re in, you’re in. (35:37) And, you know, when we say we want to decriminalize consensual adult sex work, you (35:42) know, you get accused of really awful things like, oh, so you’re like for public (35:45) indecency or you want to see awful things happen to children, all of those things.(35:49) So we do sadly need to make it clear when we those things are illegal and they should (35:54) stay illegal. When we are talking about decriminalizing consensual adult sex work, we (36:00) are talking about it within the confines of a home, a hotel, a brothel, a private (36:05) setting. And, you know, we have we don’t have to like guess about what these models (36:12) can do because they all they exist all around the world, all of them.(36:16) And there’s there’s data. (36:18) So New Zealand decriminalized consensual adult sex work in 2003. (36:23) So there are 20 years of data out of 20 years.(36:26) Wow. More, I guess. (36:27) Twenty one was 2003.(36:30) And the data has shown that violence and exploitation in the sex trade has decreased (36:37) dramatically. Sex workers are able to come forward when they are assaulted to get, you (36:44) know, perpetrator off the streets. (36:46) They have bargaining power when it comes to their workplace.(36:50) They have are able to set rules for themselves about how clients operate within their (36:57) brothels, within their businesses, you know. (37:01) Condomless. And with themselves.(37:02) I mean, you know, even the personal boundaries. (37:04) Well, and, you know, if they don’t get paid, that’s wage theft. (37:09) That’s not the case here.(37:10) Right. And also that’s rape. (37:13) I just need to put that out there because there’s no consent involved.(37:16) If there was correct, there wasn’t the contract has not been completed clearly. (37:21) So that obviously would then be a violation of someone. (37:23) The point is, is that in New Zealand, sex workers can access the same protections and, (37:29) you know, access to justice that folks who are not stigmatized the way they are can.(37:37) And it’s not perfect. (37:38) You know, we talked about how immigration issues on top of being a sex worker is a whole (37:43) other thing. So there’s a battle right now, rightly so, to be sure that undocumented people (37:50) in New Zealand engaged in sex work also are able to access those same protections if they (37:55) need medical care, if they are assaulted, victimized in any way.(38:00) So the data has shown that violence and exploitation decreased dramatically. (38:07) You will hear that you will hear proponents of entrapment model legislations hold out New (38:13) Zealand as a failure because they will say things like, so there have been zero arrests for (38:19) trafficking in New Zealand. (38:22) They claim that that’s because what the Prostitution Reform Act of 2003 did was remove (38:29) trafficking from their code of laws or whatever.(38:33) It did not. (38:34) That is a lie. (38:36) It is.They have a different term for it. (38:38) That’s how they can say that. (38:40) But other countries have not stopped because they decriminalize consensual adult sex work.(38:45) They have not stopped prosecuting traffickers and exploiters. (38:49) So New Zealand, we hold out as as the hope. (38:53) Closer to home, Rhode Island, through a legal loophole in the 90s, there was about 20 (39:01) years, the exact years escape me right now, where Rhode Island decriminalized consensual (39:07) adult sex work.(39:08) It took them a little bit to catch up with the fact that that had happened. (39:13) And then, of course, they recriminalized it. (39:15) But all the data, the good data, the actual data that came out of Rhode Island at that (39:21) time showed that violence against women dropped drastically.(39:25) And again, you know, public health increased. (39:28) There were specific it’s a story, excuse me, a sudden a study out of the London School of (39:34) Economics that I don’t have the stats in my head right now, but it’s in the incidence of (39:41) STIs around Rhode Island during that time period as well. (39:45) And it was recriminalized, you know, hope died there.(39:53) Now, is now how when did that recriminalize and what’s the data since obviously then do a (39:59) direct overlay of. (40:01) Yeah, nobody’s done that enough since, you know, and they’re there. (40:05) Yeah, it’s hard to take time for those.(40:08) Yes. And it is, you know, because it was kind of a, quote, unquote, natural experiment. (40:12) You know, there you have to say correlation causation, but we know what the data showed (40:16) that we also know what the data shows from countries where the entrapment model has been (40:22) implemented.It goes by the Nordic model a lot, but Sweden was actually the first to (40:28) implement the entrapment model. (40:30) Let us let entrapment model legislation in. (40:33) I should have looked at all my years again at the end of the day.(40:36) I believe nineteen ninety nine. (40:38) It’s a long day. (40:39) It’s no worries.Like I said. (40:40) We’re trying to understand the concepts as a whole. (40:43) Since then, in Norway, in Sweden, in Northern Ireland, in Canada, you know, the data is (40:50) unequivocal and abundant that where the entrapment model has been enacted, violence and (40:57) trafficking.Not only continue to proliferate, they increase because sex workers are (41:05) the the the balance of criminality and the, you know, the balance of power has shifted. (41:11) You’ll hear sex workers say we’d rather. (41:15) I didn’t I didn’t know if I’d lost you again.(41:17) We’d rather. (41:18) No, I’m here. I’m listening.(41:20) It’s under criminalization where we at least bear some of the criminality as well, (41:24) because when the client bears all the criminality, they also hold all the cards. (41:29) Right. So we’ll talk about SESTA, FOSTA and those types of things, too, if you want.(41:33) But sex workers have had to devise systems for themselves to keep themselves safe. (41:39) What laws do is disrupt these the very systems that they had. (41:45) To keep themselves safe, so, you know, screening clients is something that everybody (41:49) should be able to do from the comfort of their home on the Internet like they used to do (41:54) before SESTA FOSTA was signed into law.(41:57) But where this happens on the street now because of the entrapment model and and SESTA (42:02) FOSTA, people have to make snap judgments, you know, and the person who’s paying you (42:08) decides where to go, where to be. (42:11) You know, they hold all the cards and newsflash just because they’re not arresting you (42:15) for prostitution doesn’t mean they’re not arresting you for a whole host of other (42:18) things. So in Norway.(42:21) Right. It becomes cumulative. (42:22) So they’re like, oh, you have a little bit of, you know, marijuana or crack on you.(42:27) Plus you have this. Plus you did this. (42:29) Plus you have a previous warrant.(42:30) Plus you have this. And it just keeps piling up. (42:33) And these people cannot get out of that.(42:35) Right. When you when you hear this theory on paper, most people it initially said, I (42:40) don’t blame people for thinking it sounds fantastic. (42:42) We don’t want sex workers arrested.(42:44) Right. So, yeah, let’s not have penalties for them. (42:48) But sure.Buying is kind of, you know, this is me saying it’s what somebody else says. (42:52) Buying is kind of icky. (42:53) So I get that.(42:56) And can we can we talk about SESTA FOSTA? (42:59) Because, yeah, I want to say one more thing just to be clear. (43:03) People will call the entrapment model legislation. (43:07) You’ll hear terms like partial decriminalization or partial criminalization.(43:12) And to me, the point that I want people to remember most is there’s no such thing as (43:17) partial criminalization or decriminalization. (43:21) It’s law enforcement and criminalization that make sex work dangerous. (43:26) And when half of the transaction is criminalized, the whole industry is still (43:32) criminalized.So not only does this not solve any of the problems of criminalization, (43:38) what it also adds to the pile is on this fool’s errand to save, quote unquote, safe sex (43:44) workers from themselves. (43:46) They’re also reinforcing the stigma that sex work is bad. (43:50) Right.Because the industry needs to go away. (43:52) So and they’ve set us up in this awful zero sum situation where they are telling people (43:58) that they have to either choose survivors of trafficking or sex workers. (44:02) Well, that’s not true.(44:04) You know, it’s not one or one or the other. (44:07) We do this to bolster anti-trafficking efforts. (44:09) But anyways, yes, we can talk about SESTA FOSTA.(44:13) So so so share with us what what that exactly means for anyone who’s not familiar with (44:19) that. (44:19) Yes. So SESTA FOSTA, the Stop Enabling Sex Trafficking Act and the Fight Online Sex (44:25) Trafficking Act, one’s the House version, one’s the Congress version.(44:28) So it’s a package of laws, a package of bills signed into law in 2018. (44:35) And what they did was they amended Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. (44:42) Section 230 holds that platforms are not liable for what their users post.(44:50) Platforms can’t bear that liability. (44:52) They just can’t. So what this law was intended to do, or at least, you know, purported to (45:00) do, was to shut down trafficking online.(45:06) It did the total opposite because it put people in much more vulnerable situations than (45:13) they were before. (45:17) Sex workers used a number of sites to arrange dates with clients. (45:24) Having a day or two between contacting a client and meeting that client is a tried and (45:29) true safety practice.(45:30) You ask for a license, you ask for references, whatever it is that you may do. (45:35) If you are not somebody who has to make a snap decision on the street, right? (45:41) And street-based sex work is the most dangerous sex work because people are literally (45:46) vulnerable out on the street. (45:49) And I mean, that is absolutely, I mean, beyond transaction.(45:52) I mean, that is literally like meeting contact, you know, your direct sales. (45:55) I know it’s like a short way to say that, but I mean, that’s your client. (45:59) It’s a service.(46:00) Yeah. And if you are having to negotiate right then and there and you might get arrested (46:04) for just standing there, you might not use your best judgment, you know, and you might (46:10) get into it’s too much to ask somebody to do. (46:14) So when SESTA-FOSTA led to the shutdown of Backpage, Craigslist, Erotic Services, all (46:20) of these sites, sex workers were literally pushed back out onto the street.(46:26) I think one of the stats out of San Francisco was, you know, street-based sex work (46:31) increased three percent, like threefold, three times over immediately after SESTA-FOSTA. (46:38) And so we know that that’s the most dangerous form of sex work. (46:41) And now we’ve pushed people out there to do it.(46:44) It challenged, it’s a free, it’s a huge free speech issue. (46:48) And it was one of those laws where the unintended consequences were never really (46:55) considered, even though sex workers and librarians and many other free speech advocates (47:00) were warning, warning people. (47:04) Well, I have a lot of libertarian minded people.(47:06) So let’s be honest, Silk Road. (47:07) Look at Ross. Ross is still in prison.(47:10) He’s been in prison for 12 years for owning Silk Road. (47:13) The people on his site were the ones doing criminal acts. (47:17) He’s not responsible for that.(47:19) But they needed a scapegoat and they needed him out of the door for Amazon to proliferate. (47:25) Sorry, as you know, as we discussed earlier, I get passionate, so I interrupt. (47:28) I love it.No, bring it. (47:30) So the Department of Justice, while this law, while everyone was watching this horrible (47:35) law, you know, make its way through through Congress in the House and get signed into (47:40) law, the Department of Justice itself said, don’t sign this law. (47:45) The way we do actually catch people is through these online, whatever it is, you know, (47:52) the platforms, the communications they have.(47:54) They said this law was the equivalent of turning on a light in a room full of (47:58) cockroaches. Three years, you know, all their investigations, everything scattered. (48:05) Three years.So 2021, three years after SESTA-FOSTA was signed into law, you know, I (48:11) don’t need to convince you, but these things are just too rich to not share. (48:14) No, no. You have to share that, though, because I’m you know, you’re not you’re not (48:18) compelling me in any way.(48:19) You have to compel other people to share the information because it needs to be (48:22) realistic. But in 2021, three years after SESTA-FOSTA was signed into law, the (48:28) government’s own GAO, the Government Accountability Office, declared it an abject (48:33) failure. It was not used.(48:35) I think it was used in one or two prosecutions where, you know, there were other (48:41) remedies available to prosecutors who they had tried, you know, relied on those (48:46) remedies to to try traffickers for years. (48:50) And the truth is we keep seeing instances of laws like this eroding all our rights. (48:58) You know, the First Amendment, name an amendment, pick an amendment in the name of (49:04) fighting sex trafficking, which we all know is a terrible thing.(49:10) Everybody wants to fight it. (49:11) But because our country is being told it’s something that it’s not, of course, (49:17) people who care about other people are going to support a law like SESTA-FOSTA. (49:21) They are being told that they have to, that that’s the only way.(49:27) Well, this is the thing. When they when they when they paint something criminal, just (49:32) just calling it criminal makes the average non-criminal American think it’s bad. (49:38) It’s like it affects them in a safety and security way.(49:42) So if you can get rid of the crime, then you can be more safe and secure. (49:45) And they’re willing to give up those liberties for the security. (49:48) And we know how that works.(49:50) You lose both. Well, sadly, a lot of the people who make our laws and a lot of the (49:56) people who are most vocal about supporting them. (49:59) Yes, in their mind, because of the places and ways in which they were raised, laws (50:04) keep us safe.The police are who we call when we need help, when something’s going (50:09) wrong. Well, for most of the country, that’s when they’re most at risk. (50:14) The laws don’t keep them safe and the police put them in danger.(50:19) So people are sitting, you know, in their ivory towers and and on their laptops (50:27) advocating for these laws that don’t affect them, you know, that don’t affect them. (50:31) And let’s be honest, they have these degrees and they’re sitting in a vacuum. (50:35) It’s not like they’ve ever been on a street to watch how the how people make their (50:41) living, how they interact, how that how it even works.(50:43) You know, I mean, there are some amazing researchers and academics in the field of (50:50) sex work and economics who, you know, have done really, really good research. (50:56) Yeah. If you have show notes or something, we have a resource page on our website.(51:00) Yeah, I’ll put it in the show notes just because we always want to make sure the (51:04) primary sources are available. (51:06) Yeah, we want to make sure we have people. (51:09) But yeah, to go back to, you know, I guess if you want to talk about like the streets, (51:12) we can talk about like loitering for the purposes of prostitution.(51:16) Well, I have two questions. (51:18) Yeah. One is, OK, so obviously you want to decriminalize that.(51:23) When do you ever come across a case that you’re trying to protect a person? (51:28) Not from being criminalized, but like someone who. (51:33) I guess what do you have any cases that you fight, what kind of cases do you fight for (51:38) these people? Sure, I think I think I know what you’re asking. (51:41) So we hope I’m asking the right question.(51:43) I’m trying to explain. We do policy work. (51:46) Well, so decriminalize sex work ourselves.(51:48) We do policy work. (51:49) We don’t have any individual clients. (51:51) And, you know, wherever we go, we work with grass, wherever we’re working with (51:55) grassroots local organizations.(51:57) But we work on policy. (52:00) But some of the things people at DSW have worked in the past on in the past are for (52:05) protecting individual sex workers and survivors of trafficking. (52:09) DSW was actually it was founded in 2018 in the wake of SESTA-FOSTA by four incredible (52:15) individuals.Three of them are still there, are the first director of communication. (52:23) Bailey has a one woman show, Whore’s Eye View, that I highly recommend everyone check (52:28) out. But she went to pursue that.(52:31) And I was lucky enough to join the team. (52:33) And one of the founders, Melissa Santagrudo, studied at Johns Hopkins. (52:40) She has a JD slash MPH because she knew that she wanted to go into this field at some (52:48) point.And so for years, she represented sex workers. (52:52) And survivors of trafficking, Melissa was the first person to bring and win what’s (52:58) called a vacator suit. (53:01) Just an idea of some of the individual remedies that, you know, the things that have to (53:05) be fixed because our laws are so broken.(53:08) Survivors of trafficking are often arrested over and over again before they are freed (53:13) from their trafficker. (53:15) So, again, you know, law enforcement’s involvement, they are so much more scared of (53:19) their trafficker than of law enforcement. (53:23) And so they’re going to get arrested.(53:24) And they’re not because there is no safe place to actually put them and the systems (53:30) are in place to actually help them. (53:31) It’s not it does it puts them in worse danger to tell the police. (53:36) It just makes a revolving door and they go back to the abuser.(53:38) I mean, so right. (53:40) Who’s right. (53:41) And you said abuser, it’s true.(53:42) It’s, you know, more like intimate. (53:43) And if they talk, I mean, imagine if they talk, imagine their invocations. (53:46) They find out they talk.(53:47) And I mean, I can only imagine how the pressure of police and the police and the (53:53) tactics they use to get people to talk. (53:55) People will say anything to get out of, like, trouble. (53:57) I mean, I’ve seen it, you know.(53:59) Oh, was it John? (53:59) Was it this guy? Was it this guy? (54:00) And they’re like, they just say yes, you know. (54:02) Well, and if you’re in if you’re being exploited, you’ll often say what you need to (54:05) say to protect your trafficker because you know that law enforcement is equipped to (54:12) deal with what you’re going through. (54:13) So people are often arrested multiple times for crimes they were forced to commit by (54:20) their trafficker.So whether it’s prostitution over and over again, whether it’s, (54:24) you know, shoplifting is something that happens. (54:28) So vacator laws allowed people who were convicted of sex work, prostitution in New (54:36) York to who had been compelled to do it through force, fraud, coercion to clear those (54:43) arrests from their record. (54:45) So like that’s an example of you people’s, you know, again, I don’t people take for (54:50) granted an arrest in this country.(54:53) If like you’re not aware it fucks your life up, your ability to sustain life, (55:02) employment, housing, anything from one of one arrest, it can send you into a spiral. (55:09) You know, we call it the collateral consequences of arrest. (55:12) The very general one that we all are aware of is probably a DUI.(55:15) Many people at least know somebody who’s had one. (55:18) Just that alone. (55:20) You talk about the days of prison, the cost of that.(55:23) I’ve seen that absolutely affect people’s lives to a very negative offense. (55:27) Yours is that times a million because it’s on your record to the point where you can’t (55:31) get a job. You’re unemployable.(55:33) They’re going to put a stigma on you. (55:35) A DUI puts other people at risk if you’re driving under the influence. (55:38) Right, even on top of it.Right, right. (55:40) If you’re a sex worker, you haven’t put anyone at risk. (55:44) So, you know, it’s not it’s not an apples to apples by any means.(55:48) It’s just the one that we’d probably be most like most Americans be familiar with the (55:52) effect of what an arrest would do. (55:55) And people are living so far on the margins already that one missed day of work, one (56:01) missed car payment means no vehicle to get to work, to keep your job, to keep your (56:07) apartment. I mean, people are.(56:10) Screwed for a life when we arrest them for prostitution, whether buying or selling, you (56:17) know, the stigma for clients to who. (56:21) Let’s talk about immunity laws for a second, because. (56:24) Yeah, we will.Yeah, it’s a good. (56:27) Yeah, please. It’s your it’s your time.(56:29) And thank you so much for joining me, because I know you’ve had a very long day. (56:33) So it’s very late for you again. (56:36) Thanks for having me.(56:38) And so immunity laws, immunity laws. (56:42) So because sex work is criminalized when a sex worker is assaulted by a bad actor, they (56:49) often don’t go to report it because they fear their own arrest and they may not go seek (56:57) medical attention because they fear their own arrest. (57:01) So eight or nine states.(57:03) So, for example, you went to a hospital, you’d have to report, you know, what happened to (57:07) you and all those kinds of things. (57:08) And those you just you just don’t know because of stigmatization to you’ve been so (57:12) mistreated by doctors, you know, by by whoever. (57:16) But the point is, most sex workers, you know, by virtue of the fact that they are (57:21) criminalized, are are not eager to go to law enforcement for anything, but they do want (57:26) to protect their community.(57:28) So if there is a bad actor in the community and they can’t come forward to say to sound (57:33) the alarm bell or, you know, to sound the alarm bell that that they think somebody is (57:38) underage, whatever it may be, there are things that they would like to do and that (57:45) regular I shouldn’t say regular people that what people consider regular people take for (57:51) granted, which is when you’re hurt, when you’re assaulted, when a crime is committed (57:55) against you, you should have the option to seek justice and to get that perpetrator held (58:01) accountable. Sex workers are denied that that option. (58:07) The biggest, you know, example of kind of this issue are serial killers, serial killers.(58:14) This is, you know, sounds sensational, but it’s not nearly every serial killer in (58:20) history kind of has said that they prey on sex workers because they know that they are (58:26) cast aside and that nobody will look for them. (58:29) Samuel Little, the Green River killer in Seattle, said, I look for prostitutes because I (58:36) knew nobody would care. (58:38) And last summer it was reignited in the news on Long Island and nationally, the Gilgo, (58:45) the Gilgo Beach serial killer.(58:48) So I’ll try to make this brief. (58:50) Yeah, that’s the guy with the hair in the pizza box or something, right? (58:54) Rex Huerman was arrested for it. (58:55) Finally, somebody was arrested for a bunch of these murders.(58:58) So over. (59:00) And then everybody started talking like, oh, yeah, that guy was a creep. (59:02) We thought he was nuts or something.(59:04) And you’re like, you couldn’t say it’s not a thing. (59:07) There’s worse than that. (59:09) There’s worse than that.(59:10) So this who and who knows, there might be other killers out there. (59:13) But just, you know, to orient everyone, about 20 years ago, bodies started turning up on (59:19) Long Island. And when they were identified, most of them, you know, their family or friends (59:25) had come forward to say that they were engaged in sex work.(59:29) And Melissa, who I talked about before, our legal director and Crystal, who is one of the (59:35) founders of DSW, they spent years actually they, you know, Crystal kind of put together. (59:40) It’s called the Sex Workers Project. (59:42) It sadly no longer exists.(59:44) And it’s part of the Urban Justice Center in New York. (59:47) And Crystal is a licensed psychotherapist. (59:50) She provided counseling to survivors of trafficking and sex workers.(59:53) Melissa was a lawyer. (59:54) You know, there were other lawyers as well in New York and in when those bodies started (1:00:00) turning up. Clients of theirs would say, we think we know who this is, we think we knew (1:00:07) who did this, but we don’t want to come forward because we can’t risk being arrested for (1:00:11) prostitution, right, for all the reasons we just said.(1:00:14) So Melissa and Crystal and some others actually tried to broker a deal with the Suffolk (1:00:21) County Police Department for immunity for these people who had information on it, on a (1:00:27) killer. And the Suffolk County Police Department said, no, thanks. (1:00:32) We would rather retain the ability to arrest you than to take any useful information from (1:00:38) you.And so bodies kept turning up and they were sex workers. (1:00:43) And the investigation, because of that and a number of reasons, was botched and over and (1:00:50) handed over and handed over. (1:00:52) And finally, last summer, there was, you know, a break in the case.(1:00:57) And then all these people were able, not were able, but did come forward. (1:01:03) And and this is the perfect example of where, where and why an immunity law is so crucial (1:01:11) and so vital. (1:01:12) It’s like one of the Band-Aids we have to all the dangers of criminalization in the (1:01:18) meantime, is to allow people when they or somebody they know or see has been victimized (1:01:27) to come forward.(1:01:29) Like a whistleblower law in a way, you know, it’s like the closest parallel is like a good (1:01:34) Samaritan law for drugs. (1:01:36) Right. You know, if you are with a friend who overdoses, people used people used to not (1:01:41) call for help because they didn’t want to get arrested.(1:01:43) Well, at a certain point, we realized you’ve got to let people drive their friend to the (1:01:46) hospital and we’ll tell you we’re not going to arrest you, but just get them help. (1:01:49) It’s it’s the same thing. (1:01:52) And we are seeing for a while nobody was really opposing these immunity laws places.(1:01:59) They just wouldn’t kind of get enough traction. (1:02:02) But recently we’ve seen the entrapment model proponents also attacking these immunity (1:02:09) laws, which, again, you know, a law that would help the actual people they’re purporting to (1:02:15) care about. So, for example, in Rhode Island, where an immunity law has been introduced (1:02:21) year after year after year and and survivors of trafficking and sex workers come forward (1:02:27) at the hearings and and plead for legislators to pass these laws.(1:02:33) This year, we were close to seeing it pass again. (1:02:38) And there’s an organization and COSI, the National Center on Sexual Exploitation, they (1:02:44) were called Morality and Media before that. (1:02:47) They’re anti-porn crusaders under the guise of fighting trafficking.(1:02:52) One of their lawyers in the Boston Globe ran this is Total Fabrication said that immunity (1:03:01) laws enabled and encouraged trafficking because we would want to provide immunity to (1:03:09) traffickers, you know, and they love throwing around this term PIMP, which PIMP is, you (1:03:15) know, a racialized term. (1:03:18) But the point is, is if you hate them, it’s like such a stigmatized thing that you draw a (1:03:23) picture in your head the second you correct. (1:03:24) So that’s why they use this word.(1:03:26) Right. You could say manager, but so they use like weed or what, you know, like they use (1:03:32) all these slang terms because they evoke in the light of an emotional feeling. (1:03:37) These groups talk about sex work.(1:03:38) You’ll hear them say in the life. (1:03:40) That’s kind of a buzzword for knowing you’re listening to somebody who is doesn’t (1:03:45) actually care about, you know, the health and safety there on this moral crusade. (1:03:52) But there was one.(1:03:54) There’s so many points I was in the middle of making as usual. (1:03:56) But there was one. (1:03:58) Oh, Morality and Media.(1:03:59) So but and COSI now, they were quoted in the media as saying something like the bill had (1:04:05) as many loopholes in it as Swiss cheese and would allow pimps and traffickers immunity, (1:04:12) which. Even on its face value, nobody and they you know, we ask for retractions and (1:04:19) stuff all the time, nobody stopped to think that the bill itself, you know, it says it (1:04:25) there, too. It only provides immunity for prostitution.(1:04:28) There is no way that if you committed another crime and you were being held accountable (1:04:33) for that, that you could get immunity like it just didn’t make sense. (1:04:38) But they would rather see anything that feels like a step towards decriminalization. (1:04:44) They shut down immediately and and people really are dying because of it, literally.(1:04:52) And and whether it’s because I would even think the suffering part is worse, like die. (1:04:58) I mean, death is obviously the worst thing. (1:05:00) But imagine years of just physical, emotional abuse, the suffering and that just living (1:05:07) with that is so typically the immunity laws is more.(1:05:15) For what am I trying to say? (1:05:17) Yes, if you were worried, if you were being trafficked and you wanted to come forward to (1:05:22) report your trafficker, you should be able to do that without fear of your own arrest, (1:05:25) which sadly happens because, you know, our laws lump everything into prostitution or (1:05:33) everything into trafficking and they treat them as the same thing, which means both (1:05:37) groups get screwed. (1:05:39) And again, you know. (1:05:42) Sex workers, because of criminalization that are.(1:05:47) Wanting to eradicate exploitation and violence just as much as anyone, so the fact that (1:05:52) it’s painted as this false binary is is so challenging. (1:05:57) But, you know, immunity laws just drive home, I think, I hope so clearly that. (1:06:05) It’s it’s criminalization that makes it dangerous and, you know, people hear the term (1:06:13) harm reduction all the time.(1:06:17) This is such a basic, basic tenant of harm reduction that you allow people to ask for (1:06:23) help when they need it. (1:06:24) We were telling people like we hate you so much that even if somebody hurts you, we (1:06:30) don’t want to hear about it. (1:06:32) And and, you know, there were things said like to go back to the Gilgal Beach debacle (1:06:37) and tragedy.(1:06:39) There were things said by police chiefs like, don’t worry, everyone, they’re just (1:06:44) targeting sex workers, whoever it is. (1:06:46) Don’t worry, we’re the rest of us are safe. (1:06:49) So that tells you how the the investigation.(1:06:53) It’s a different class. (1:06:54) It’s a subclass of human, the subhuman. (1:06:57) So some of the to touch on policy for a little bit in addition to immunity, which should (1:07:02) be, you know, we say it’s incremental.(1:07:04) It’s needed because of criminalization, but it shouldn’t be maligned by opponents as, you (1:07:14) call it, like where the pimp lobby is is pushing this. (1:07:19) So immunity laws, police sexual violence laws, I think people would be shocked to hear (1:07:25) that in most states in this country, it is not illegal for a member of law enforcement (1:07:31) to have sex with you and then arrest you for prostitution, which is so egregious because (1:07:38) you don’t even need like on the base level, aside from the disgusting aspect of it, you (1:07:45) don’t need to have somebody turns my stomach. (1:07:49) Yeah.But just on a basic level, like aside from all of that, if we remove from that, you (1:07:54) don’t even need to have to have somebody go through with the act of sex to arrest them (1:08:01) for prostitution. So there is no like even if that would still be just as gross, even (1:08:07) if you needed to, because it’s state sanctioned rape. (1:08:11) But.It doesn’t, you know, it’s and it’s because these people are criminalized that we (1:08:17) allow them, we put them in these situations where where this can happen and other (1:08:23) examples of it are law enforcement, because sex work is criminalized, is able to say to (1:08:29) somebody they’re about to arrest for prostitution, well, if you perform this sexual act (1:08:34) for me, I won’t arrest you today. (1:08:38) So and then they’ll still do it, whether they do or not, you know, a lot of right. (1:08:43) Well, obviously.(1:08:45) Right. But it’s like even then it’s like, come on, you know, nonconsensual and nothing. (1:08:51) You know, we don’t have degrees of terrible.(1:08:53) I mean, it’s complete. (1:08:54) It’s absolutely quid pro quo. (1:08:56) It is absolutely unacceptable.(1:08:57) Complete. There’s no there’s no way around that. (1:09:01) Involved when it’s choosing between not getting arrested and all the awful things we (1:09:05) talked about happen and giving, you know, performing a sex act like so the power (1:09:14) balance there because of criminalization presents a whole host of other challenges.(1:09:20) So the power is not in the person, in the sex act, it’s the person in the state who (1:09:25) administers whether you’re a criminal for doing it or not. (1:09:28) It’s like, you know, that’s where those institutions, the institution isn’t good or (1:09:33) bad. It’s with the people who get in it that do the things that see what you’re talking (1:09:37) about to this point where you’re just.(1:09:39) Well, we see it in so many compassion. (1:09:42) We see it in so many instances. (1:09:44) I think of ways, you know, it’s really the pendulum.(1:09:47) Just it swings too far in one direction and we’re always trying to correct it. (1:09:52) And then it swings too far. And we’re like, wait, there’s somewhere in the middle.(1:09:54) Like, can we just we always we always govern through the middle. (1:09:58) We never govern within the middle. (1:09:59) We’re always trying to correct, you know, quote unquote, correct some something else.(1:10:08) But I lost when I when we did our pendulum motion, I lost my train of thought about (1:10:15) immunity. We said we finished up on immunity laws and just protecting the people of (1:10:19) violence. Oh, well, you know, it’s what I was going to say.(1:10:22) It’s a perfect example of preserving systems over people and and putting (1:10:28) ideas, whether they’re good or bad or you think they’re good or bad over the reality of (1:10:33) what people’s actual lives are like. (1:10:36) And so it’s so distressing. (1:10:39) I find it personally distressing when we’re in legislative hearings or when I’m doing (1:10:43) interviews or debates and we’re talking to the media and.(1:10:49) We’re painted as having any interest other than wanting to eradicate violence and (1:10:55) exploitation as much as possible, because it’s not like I said, it’s not a zero (1:11:04) sum game. And so it’s so sad to me that we can’t quite figure out we have the same. (1:11:12) Everyone has the same ultimate goal unless they’re trying to just get rid of porn by (1:11:17) calling it folks who are really interested in eradicating trafficking.(1:11:23) We all have the same goal, but there’s this fundamental disagreement of where do we (1:11:29) exist in in reality? (1:11:32) And so they would rather continue to send the message that they don’t like sex work. (1:11:39) Which puts people in danger than just say whether we like it or not, it’s going to (1:11:45) happen. And so the best thing we can do is let people come out of the shadows and be (1:11:51) safe.And it doesn’t mean they’re shouting it from the rooftops, right? (1:11:53) Like our society treats sex workers like shit. (1:11:57) So you don’t have to worry that they’re going to proselytize. (1:11:59) You don’t have to.We were part of the effort to in Burlington, Vermont, remove from the (1:12:05) city ordinance. (1:12:09) A hundred year old archaic ban on on prostitution, mostly motivated by the awful (1:12:16) misogynistic, archaic language. (1:12:20) And, you know, prostitution remains criminalized in the state of Vermont.(1:12:24) So a lot of this was symbolic, but it was important from a stigma point of view. (1:12:30) And it wasn’t. (1:12:32) It was about the language, but because that language, when it comes to stigma and sex (1:12:37) workers, actually causes people violence.(1:12:39) When you refer to sex workers in ways that they should never be referred to, you send (1:12:46) the message that they’re disposable, that they’re discarded, you know, they can be (1:12:49) discarded. We don’t we don’t want them. (1:12:52) So when this process was happening and Cosi and some of the others descended on (1:12:59) Burlington and predicted and urged city councilors to not pass this, they predicted (1:13:05) that Burlington would become the sex, quote unquote, the sex tourism capital of (1:13:09) America.Well, Mark, I’m sorry, I’m disappointed for them. (1:13:14) I’m sorry to report to you that it has not, in fact, become the sex. (1:13:19) You know, nothing has changed other than wonderful sex worker rights activists.(1:13:26) They’re feeling a little more included in their community and therefore able to (1:13:31) self-actualize a little bit and and and live lives not shrouded in shame. (1:13:38) As you know, shame does terrible things to people. (1:13:42) And these laws perpetuate, you know, there shouldn’t be any shame.(1:13:47) But as you said, when things are criminalized, you know, we’re a law and order state (1:13:54) that tells us they’re bad. (1:13:56) Yeah, look, shame, shame makes you go underground. (1:13:59) Underground’s not good.Anything outside of visibility. (1:14:02) That’s why transparency is important. (1:14:04) It’s like speech.You just have to allow it all because it’s like that’s how you figure (1:14:08) out the good stuff from the bad. (1:14:10) When you can’t allow people to come forward to sound the alarm bell because you’ve told (1:14:16) them that they’re so gross and disgusting, what are you actually accomplishing? (1:14:22) You know, people want to shove help down people’s throats, right? (1:14:26) Like we’re going to arrest you to save you when they’re talking about arrest. (1:14:30) You know, a common refrain in the sex worker rights movement is rights, not rescue.(1:14:35) This country uses arrests to quote unquote, rescue sex workers, survivors of trafficking, (1:14:43) police raids on suspected brothels or massage parlors are often the most traumatic, (1:14:53) dangerous thing that happens to sex workers in the course of their. (1:14:57) And I can imagine no-knock warrants would be part of that, just like they are for drugs. (1:15:01) And I’ve seen the effects of no-knock warrants and how people are inside the place that where (1:15:07) they administer the no-knock warrant.(1:15:09) And they’re just they have no idea who that is. (1:15:11) And they’re just defending their home. (1:15:12) It’s not a thing that needs to be regulated by law enforcement.(1:15:17) And that’s the perfect example of it. (1:15:19) Right. Like people have died during police raids a number of times in New York.(1:15:25) For what? For what? (1:15:28) You know, you didn’t offer them services if you thought they were trafficked. (1:15:32) And and, you know, actually, with a lot of these sting operations, like you think about (1:15:36) Robert Kraft in Jupiter, a lot of these sting operations and raids in the name of fighting (1:15:43) trafficking. Well, you know what? (1:15:45) If they were aware that trafficking was going on, they watched it happen for six months (1:15:51) and then went in and raided and arrested the victims.(1:15:55) It happens all the time, you know, and I again, I can’t help but point out when you see in (1:16:01) the newspaper. (1:16:03) Human trafficking ring or prostitution ring, that’s busted, if you read the article, (1:16:11) usually it’s consensual adults being arrested for prostitution, so they don’t they’re not (1:16:18) arresting anyone for trafficking, which that if somebody is engaged in trafficking, please (1:16:23) like get them. (1:16:25) But they’re calling it a trafficking ring bus, but they arrested two consenting adults.(1:16:33) I’ll just touch on quickly one of the other things, terrible things that gets slung at (1:16:37) individuals. Asking for the decriminalization of consensual adult sex work is, you know, (1:16:44) what about the children? (1:16:46) Clearly, you don’t care about children and clearly, you know, this is going to lead to the (1:16:50) sexual. It’s about the children, any any of those acts written with children in it.(1:16:54) I know it’s balderdash right off the bat because that’s what they use. (1:16:57) Well, what people need to remember, too, is that trafficking, anyone engaged in, quote (1:17:05) unquote, sex work under the age of 18, even if they tell you that it’s consensual under (1:17:11) the age of 18, it is trafficking. (1:17:14) So there’s no there is no what about the children? (1:17:18) And to the extent that it is about the children, it allows people, again, immunity laws, (1:17:25) decriminalization.(1:17:26) They allow people to sound the alarm bell when something isn’t right. (1:17:32) I’m not exaggerating when I tell you you hear all the time of clients who meet with somebody (1:17:37) and have the suspicion, you know, and so they don’t go through with, you know, the the act, (1:17:43) but meet with somebody, have the suspicion that they are underage and have to walk away (1:17:48) and not go to law enforcement, not go because they themselves will get arrested. (1:17:53) So here these are actual opportunities for people to come forward and say something bad (1:18:01) is happening here.(1:18:02) And instead of allowing that, we’re telling everyone that their daughters are going to be (1:18:06) plucked off their porches in rural Ohio. (1:18:11) And so therefore, we need to have all these laws and we need to eradicate commercial sex. (1:18:17) Prostitution is not who we indict for trafficking, right? (1:18:22) Because prostitution exists because, you know, because you wouldn’t say that because (1:18:26) agriculture exists, you know, there’s trafficking into labor.(1:18:31) But it’s it’s prostitution that is often or that is being indicted when the real causes of (1:18:39) trafficking are structural inequities, poverty, lack of education, their power, their power (1:18:45) differences that they that people take advantage of. (1:18:48) And yeah, when you when you have no, you know, no ability to support yourself and your (1:18:54) family and somebody offers you a job at a restaurant in Miami, this happens all the time. (1:19:01) You know, you come and you take the job and then you find out that they’re keeping your (1:19:04) papers, they’re not paying you.(1:19:07) And again, it’s it’s how we treat people. (1:19:14) We make them vulnerable and then we tell them that they’re on their own. (1:19:21) When there’s a regulation written, there’s someone already thinking of a way to usurp it or (1:19:26) use it to their advantage to to exploit it.(1:19:29) And that’s all that is. (1:19:31) Those those laws are nothing, nothing. (1:19:33) Everything’s fallible.(1:19:33) There’s always ways around and through. (1:19:35) Right. And, you know, it’s you know, this is like preaching to the choir, but everyone digs in (1:19:43) when they’re wrong instead of adjusting course.(1:19:47) And like what I always want to say to the entrapment model folks or the you know, there’s (1:19:53) nobody really talking about prostitution related form. (1:19:56) That’s like anyone who’s really talking about it’s either entrapment model or (1:20:02) decriminalization. (1:20:03) Nobody’s like really pushing for legalization.(1:20:05) And and when I say this conversation, it’s happening in the states where there’s any kind of (1:20:10) discussion away from criminalization. (1:20:15) But I just. (1:20:18) Yeah, I lost my train of thought.(1:20:21) It’s been a long day. Yeah, I had the model. (1:20:27) The model.Oh, yeah, I don’t. (1:20:30) But it was something, you know, so so basic about like just as another example, we see all (1:20:36) the time this advocate for the entrapment model, who is a human rights lawyer, cares deeply (1:20:43) about people clearly who she talks about the foster care to prostitution pipeline. (1:20:50) This is an example of indicting the wrong issue.(1:20:53) So we all know that foster care in this system is horrible for a number of reasons. (1:20:59) And children end up at 16, 17, 18 out on their own on the streets with no resources, no (1:21:08) support. It’s not surprising that a number of them involved, you know, end up in being (1:21:14) exploited because of those vulnerabilities.(1:21:17) But we in these hearings, all we hear over and over again is indict prostitution, right? (1:21:23) The foster care to prostitution pipeline. (1:21:25) So prostitution is issue. (1:21:27) Well, guys, why are we not looking at the root causes? (1:21:31) You know, if you care so much about trafficking, let’s stop punishing everyone for it.(1:21:36) And let’s spend the time and energy reforming the foster care system, looking at these (1:21:41) vulnerabilities. Like if you actually want to help, like, what are you doing here? (1:21:47) Opposing this? (1:21:48) And it comes down to this baseline idea they have that sex work is inherently (1:21:56) exploitative. And that’s just not true.(1:22:01) I agree with all that assessment. (1:22:03) So, Ariella, thank you so much for joining me. (1:22:07) Do you have any final words, anything you’d like to share? (1:22:09) I’m sure we’ll share some show notes and everything.(1:22:11) So many, always. (1:22:13) But I appreciate your interest in the topic. (1:22:17) People ask me all the time if they’re interested in joining us in the fight for (1:22:24) decriminalization, how they can do that.(1:22:28) And so there’s a couple of really simple ways, a couple of concrete ways are to talk to (1:22:32) your legislators and electeds and let them know your concerns if you have them. (1:22:36) But a really simple thing people can do anywhere, anytime is to challenge the (1:22:43) narrative that you consistently hear about sex workers. (1:22:47) When you hear somebody use derogatory language, when, you know, whatever it may be, it (1:22:53) does matter to remind people that sex workers are human and that they have agency and (1:23:01) that there’s choice involved.(1:23:03) Because when, you know, the entrapment model proponents tell everyone that there’s no (1:23:10) agency involved because it’s inherently exploitative, they continue to send the message (1:23:15) that these aren’t human beings engaged in it. (1:23:19) And it’s so dehumanizing to hear the way they talk about it. (1:23:24) And again, I know we’re trying to wrap up, but you use the word supply and demand (1:23:29) because they have this end demand notion.(1:23:33) It’s just another example of, you know, they talk about bodies being sold, the bodies, (1:23:38) the commodity. People aren’t selling their bodies, they’re selling a service. (1:23:41) But the same people who keep saying you’re selling your body, you’re selling your body (1:23:45) are also talking about supply and demand.(1:23:50) We’re, you know, we’re not. (1:23:52) So just there’s a humanistic issue there that I think we all need to keep in mind. (1:24:00) Well, thank you again for joining.(1:24:02) You are now an official member of the Knocked Conscious family, Arielle Amoskowicz, Director (1:24:08) of Communications for Decriminalize Sex Work. (1:24:11) It’s decriminalizesex.work, is that correct? (1:24:15) Yes. Thank you so much, Mark.(1:24:16) Excellent. Thank you again. (1:24:18) It was great meeting your team and everything.(1:24:20) And like I said, I’m just here to push the Overton Wind towards some kind of liberty. (1:24:24) Everyone should take just a step back at everything in their lives and just think about it. (1:24:31) Does the end result, does the sex work affect you as a human being? (1:24:37) The trafficking we know hurts someone.(1:24:39) We know that’s not a good, we clearly know that, but laws are already in place for that. (1:24:43) But does actual, do these things happen? (1:24:46) Does someone smoking marijuana in their bedroom affect you? (1:24:49) Does someone engaging two consensual people or more consensual people engaging in some (1:24:54) act? How does that affect you personally? (1:24:57) And take a step back. (1:24:58) The truth is it might offend you, but it doesn’t affect you.(1:25:01) And I think that’s a good way to look at it. (1:25:02) And it shouldn’t offend you to the level that you feel like they should suffer and be exposed (1:25:07) to violence because it wouldn’t be your choice. (1:25:12) So that’s, you know.(1:25:14) Exactly. So thank you again. (1:25:16) I’m going to hit stop here, but it’s been great meeting you.(1:25:19) Please don’t go anywhere just in case because we had that little technical hiccup. (1:25:22) I want to make sure we get it. (1:25:23) So thank you again, Ariella.(1:25:25) Have a great day. (1:25:26) Take care.