Thomas Sheedy, Founder & President of Atheists for Liberty

Mark welcomes Thomas Sheedy, Founder & President of Atheists for Liberty, for an interesting conversation.
Website: https://www.atheistsforliberty.org/
X: @sheedythom
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@AtheistsforLiberty
Rumble: https://rumble.com/user/AtheistsLiberty
Outro: ”Goodnight, Sweetheart, Goodnight” – This score is in public domain and may be freely downloaded, printed, and performed. The sound file may be downloaded for personal use. For more information see https://lincolnlibraries.org/polley-music-library/

Transcript:

(0:00) Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Knocked Conscious. Today, I had the pleasure of speaking with Thomas Sheedy. (0:06) He’s the president and founder of Atheists for Liberty.It was an amazing conversation. Here it is. I hope you enjoy it.(0:13) Hey everybody and welcome to another episode of Knocked Conscious. Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Thomas Sheedy. (0:19) I met him at Freedom Fest about a month ago.He is the president and founder of Atheists for Liberty. (0:26) Thomas, welcome to Knocked Conscious. How are you? (0:28) Mark, thanks for having me on, man.Good to be on here. (0:32) Thank you so much for joining. I met you at Freedom Fest and I have my first question for you.It’s real simple. (0:37) It’s like, why do you hate God, man? Why are you going to hell? Just let’s start. Let’s start there.(0:42) Yeah, well, I hate God. I like eating babies. (0:46) I have no moral framework for anything, no ethics whatsoever, and I just get enjoyment out of attacking people’s beliefs without reason.(0:54) I love it. I think that’s the best way to do it, is just completely irrational, just attack, right, without having to worry about your own stances, right? (1:01) Well, certainly, it’s very refreshing to see this. I met John.I met Justin at your booth. (1:07) Really great people. (1:09) Absolutely stand-up individuals.(1:11) These are people you would meet in the street, seem to have very stand-up people, shake your hand, look you in the eye, have a (1:16) conversation with you, and then you find out, oh my gosh, (1:20) they don’t believe in this thing that a lot of people believe in. So, you obviously came from somewhere. (1:27) So, I’d love to hear your story, how you, (1:30) where you started, and how you came to, (1:32) got to where you are, because I think what’s really important is what I like to have on my show is how we show our (1:37) work, because I think if we show our work, (1:39) we can always go back to where we split to see where those challenges may have come.(1:44) Maybe there are places that we can patch them up, or maybe we steered wrong, right? (1:48) So, I’d love to hear how you kind of came to this (1:52) epiphany. (1:53) Yeah, I won’t go into every tiny detail, (1:56) but I’ll give a very basic overview, and I explain this sometimes in greater detail on certain podcasts, sometimes in shorter detail. (2:02) So, I’ll go, I’ll test out the short version to see if it’s palatable, and we’ll see what people think.(2:08) So, was Catholic until I was 15 years old. A few years between 12 to 15, (2:13) I was already very, very skeptical of the Catholic Church’s activities. (2:16) This was in the early 2010s, when gay marriage was being debated a lot in the United States, (2:22) and while my mother was very, very fervently Catholic, in fact, (2:26) she was part of the moral majority, the Christian moral majority growing up.(2:32) She became an early adult before I was born. (2:35) I was always raised in my area, suburban Long Island, New York, with a sense of (2:39) separation between church and state already being drilled into my head. (2:42) There’s the public school that I go to, where I learn about things, and then there’s the church that I go to, that’s my (2:47) own private religious faith, that I was already kind of skeptical of anyways.(2:52) So, you went to public school. You did not go to actually a Catholic private school, because I’m from the East Coast as well. (2:57) Okay, I’m from the Philadelphia area, and that’s a prevalent thing, is that a lot of people would take their children to a private (3:02) Catholic school.So, you actually stayed in the public system as well. (3:05) Okay. (3:06) I stayed in the public system.Not all my family members did. A good chunk of my family went to Catholic school, (3:10) but among those in my household, (3:13) we went to public school. (3:15) So, I was already very conscious of church-state separation.I was already conscious of secular life (3:22) growing up in the 2000s and the 2010s. (3:26) And so, when I saw the Catholic Church, a kind of feudal medieval institution, caring so much from a U.S. (3:32) secular public policy perspective, what two adults could do in a secular setting, (3:37) not in the church, but outside of the church, (3:41) it made me kind of ponder and question Roman Catholicism, and it made me also compare Catholicism to other belief systems. (3:48) It made me actually grow a little bit of respect for those who were fervently Catholic, (3:52) even though my respect for the belief system itself was decreasing.(3:56) So, I became very fiery in my skepticism, (3:59) but I retained my humanism and sense of coexistence with other people in America. (4:05) Now, would you attribute some of that, because I have a Lutheran background, (4:10) would you attribute some of your (4:14) foundation? Obviously, there’s some of it based in the religion, (4:17) but I would think it’s more based in the family structure than is based in the religion. (4:21) Yeah, I think it’s more the family structure.(4:23) I think it’s more of the environment that I grew up in and what religion loves to do, and I’m not singling out any one faith. (4:29) Once again, we’re just having a deep dive into this. Yeah, for sure.(4:33) I would argue that religions, whatever religion you’re born in, they take credit for the individual (4:38) geographic way that you communicate with others and say, ah, (4:41) you were able to be nice to people because you were raised Catholic, because you were raised Jewish, because you were (4:46) raised as a Muslim, because you were raised Mormon, Hindu, etc, etc. (4:52) So, I would argue that it’s just due to how I was raised. It’s very interesting with me.(4:56) Well, I would say there are bits of my family that are very, very pious and very, very religious. (5:01) It’s funny how the (5:04) largest bits of (5:06) religiosity always come out and praying for you kind of conversations go out whenever those once-a-year calls to family members (5:13) happen. All of a sudden, then, you know, the Christianity is really, really showing.But, you know, during every other day of the year, (5:20) it’s just normal secularism, day-to-day, American standard, you know, house talk. (5:27) Not to say, again, not to diminish the fervent religiosity of others in my family, but it kind of made me realize how (5:34) growing up in a secular way, a lot of Christians grow up in a secular way, (5:38) they just don’t attribute it. They don’t name, call it secularism.(5:41) They claim that it’s Christian, or they claim that it’s Jewish, or they claim that it’s Muslim, but it’s not the case. (5:46) So, I was already becoming a fervent skeptic towards Roman Catholicism in the early 2010s. (5:52) And then what really put the nail in the coffin, this was in 2013, the spring of 2013, I was 15 years old.(5:58) I was watching, I’m studying for my Regents exams, and I remember Bill Maher. (6:03) He’s a comedian. (6:06) Religiosity, are you watching or something? Well, I love Religiolus, but I was watching one of his… (6:10) Oh, Religiolus, that’s what it was, yeah.(6:12) He did like a 2005 comedy special. (6:14) He always has like a different comedy special each year that usually is released either on YouTube or I guess back then DVD or whatever. (6:21) And this was the big one in 2005, and this is like a viral video that went around, and in this special, (6:27) he talked about how, I (6:29) guess a lot of poisons were used in modern medicines back then, like mercury and other things that we didn’t know of, and (6:34) later on in his life, he got it drilled out of him for his own body.(6:39) And he said, you can do the same thing with Catholicism, and I remember the exact moment that I became an atheist. (6:46) It was watching that Bill Maher remark, already added on with, you know, (6:50) those years of skepticism, but (6:53) seeing that like was just an absolute game-changer, and that’s how I became an atheist. (6:58) Now, then there were two other journeys that I went on, the journey into atheist activism, and then the journey (7:04) of going to where I am today as president of the Atheist Liberty.I’ll try to make it as quick as possible. (7:09) Right. Well, so if I may, if I may, just very quickly, (7:12) so we had this kind of interesting journey where we kind of go through.(7:16) I had that same kind of thing where I swung the pendulum through to the atheist side, (7:20) and now I’m, I’m actually what, I’ll explain it later, (7:23) but I’m an anti-theist, and I think you even understand what that is, I think, probably from a Hitchensian perspective. (7:29) Oh, I understand it. I technically fit the definition.(7:32) Okay, because, because we kind of, it’s funny, because that atheist thing becomes almost like a hatred-seething, right? (7:38) Like, when I watch Sam Harris on (7:41) Bill Maher, for example, and I watch, it sounds logical and reasonable the way he speaks so calmly about (7:47) destroying other people that he doesn’t agree with just because they have a very different philosophy than you, right? (7:53) It’s like, well, you must understand, they all, they all want to kill us. (7:57) So if they want to all kill us, the only thing we can really do logically is to kill all of them. (8:04) Doesn’t that make sense as they dangle that pendulum and try to hypnotize you into this, this logic trap? (8:10) So, so I came to that thing, (8:12) I swung through really atheist and got like atheist to that point where I hated it, right? (8:16) Like, did you go through that kind of similar swing at that point? Because it was like a Bill Maher-ian kind of (8:23) epiphany kind of for me as well.(8:24) Yeah, Bill Maher-ian, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, I went through it and the difference is, is I never really left it. (8:29) Maybe I (8:31) learned to be more diplomatic in the settings I’m in, but the- (8:34) Yeah, you managed it. (8:35) I managed it, but I’m now actually encouraging people to kind of revisit their teenage past and to actually bring it back out.(8:42) I think, I think, I think we’ve been a little too nice over the past few years because we’re like, (8:47) oh, new atheism, that was like a kid thing when I was on the internet ten years ago. (8:51) No, no, no, we need more of that again. Like, like, we were a little too nice.(8:55) Yeah, yeah, it’s true. (8:55) We need a little bit more of that fervent behavior because we have liberties at stake that we need to fight for. A lot of people are (9:00) trying to corrode our liberties in the name of their faith, and we all thought that, oh, new atheism is just a childish thing.(9:06) Let’s make it an adult thing, please. (9:09) Well, I mean, the new atheism really sprang out of the Mother Teresa Catholic, the right, (9:14) you know, the religious right doing the right thing, the Bible Belt rising, that rise of, the rise of (9:20) profanity and adult lyrics and things in the 80s and the satanic music leading to all the death cults and all the death, all the murders. (9:27) I remember all that stuff because that’s what I grew up in.I’m a little older than you by, well, by 20-some years. (9:33) We won’t go, almost 25 years. So I grew up in the 80s and that was a big thing.(9:37) We talk about Tiber Corp, but remember, it was James Baker’s wife who was really pushing that too. (9:43) It was, you know, Billy Graham pushing that. The same guy who put in Under God in the Pledge in 54.(9:50) You know, it’s like, this is, these are, these are movements too. These are, it’s like, they take, it’s, (9:55) it’s like the religion, (9:57) whatever ideology it is, is the tool. (10:00) And it’s what we use as (10:03) psychopaths and sociopaths to wield (10:05) in our way to get what we want, you know what I mean? And, and that’s what that, (10:10) I hate to come to that because I see such good people joining a church and joining organizations.So you come to atheism, (10:17) so you come to atheism, please continue from there. I know we got a lot of tangents, (10:21) but that’s, that’s the beauty about the conversations. This is my problem.I get into too many tangents half the time. (10:26) So I appreciate someone like moderating me (10:28) and helping me stay on track because I’m, I’m the same way. I can go on.Oh, I’ll get you off track. Don’t worry. (10:34) I mean, I should have called it tangents, really.It should have been the name of the podcast. (10:38) So, (10:39) yeah, I became an atheist in 2013 and then immediately I found cause to be involved and to devote all this energy as a young professional (10:47) in this new atheist movement, the amalgamation of organizations, YouTube channels, podcasts, an online and offline community, (10:55) you know, spreading throughout the world and spreading, especially throughout the West, (10:59) that was saying, you know, you could be good without God. Religion is a problem when it comes to the advancement of enlightenment values.(11:08) Religion is more, does more harm than good. You can be respectful to religious people while at the same time (11:14) condemning bad beliefs. (11:16) This was the (11:18) shtick for me to really get into and to sink my teeth into.I like organizing things. (11:23) I like putting my energy into something, especially a fight that I think I can win. (11:26) I knew atheism was just ready for me.But once, once I got out, (11:30) um, so when I was a high school student, I nearly sued my school district nearly, uh, (11:35) into getting a secular student alliance atheist club kind of started there. Then when I graduated from high school, (11:42) um, I, once I was 18 years old, just 18, (11:46) a lot of the baby boomers and Gen Xers of the Long Island atheists, they made me president, (11:52) uh, going into my first two years of community college. Then, um, we get into an interesting time frame.(11:58) So, so I was already like this, this kind of a young (12:01) atheist leader. I don’t want to, I don’t want to. And like a young influencer, you’re, you’re, you’re young.(12:06) You’re, you’re hitting this market where you’re growing up with the technology. For example, like I’m, I’m a, I’m a Gen Xer. (12:12) So getting into the technology is much different than growing with the technology the way you probably grew.So it, it was a natural (12:19) uh, leap that went along with the social media and all the other stuff. (12:22) Yeah, precisely. It was, it was so easy for me to organize things.(12:25) It was so easy for me to use a meetup.com and Facebook groups to organize, you know, groups of local Long Island atheist agnostic secular types, (12:33) um, into, you know, rooms of Panera Bread and, and people’s houses to play cards against humanity and libraries to watch, you know, (12:40) skeptic lectures and, and, and activism and, and church state stuff and, and cleanups and you name it. (12:46) Um, I did all that at 18 and I loved it. I loved it.I loved it. (12:49) I loved it. And at that same time I was getting involved in a lot of the existing atheist organizations that existed in the United States.(12:56) So the Secular Coalition for America and their, their member groups like (13:00) Center for Inquiry, American Atheists, the Secular Student Alliance, I got a scholarship from the Freedom from Religion Foundation, (13:06) uh, Foundation. Would you write, would you like write articles for these groups or would you, how would, (13:11) how would you associate yourself with them? Just do like side work or? (13:14) Yeah, some side work, their youth content, uh, for American Atheists, for instance, I was an assistant state director for New York. (13:21) Um, so I, I played a bug, I was on the Youth Advisory Council for Americans United for Separation of Church and State.(13:26) So I, I had all these different hats on and roles to fill and everybody knew me was a, as Thomas, this giddy, exciting (13:33) 17, 18, 19 year old atheist, high school slash college student. (13:38) And, um, (13:39) but while I was getting into this movement, especially (13:42) post late 2016, (13:45) I saw that the National Atheist Movement took a dive for the worst. (13:49) They started to embrace religions and cults of their own.(13:51) They started to kick members out of their own organizations who didn’t subscribe to what they considered to be social justice. (13:58) They preferred to advertise atheism and normalize atheism in one sect of American politics (14:04) as these quote-unquote neutral 501c3, 501c4 think tank organizations, (14:09) but they refused to do the same for libertarians, for conservatives, for centrists, for just even liberals that didn’t adhere, (14:16) that, that would have been acceptable in atheist circles five years prior, (14:19) but not around 16, 17, 18, 19. (14:23) Uh, you think that got hijacked? (14:25) It got hijacked.It got hijacked very quickly. I mean, it seems like what, what I’m finding with the government, (14:30) I mean, this is the thing, part of this, (14:32) I, I’ve met, I’ve spoken with so many people from Freedom Fest, from all different industries that we’ve met. It’s amazing.(14:37) But the, the pattern we see is that the government finds a way to (14:43) pry (14:44) into what they would consider an extreme organization, an outlier, (14:48) and then hijack it, corrupt it more to give it zero legs so it can’t get traction. (14:53) We see that with, even with the LGBTQ movement where it grows to the point where you just keep adding letters to it. (14:59) It’s like you’re watering down your, your, your cause in a weird way.It’s not that each (15:04) cause isn’t important, but it’s like that’s what’s happening, right? (15:07) So, so would you say that somebody may have infiltrated at that point in some way? (15:11) Yeah, yeah. A series of bloggers and, and other activists who came in, they said our conferences were racist or sexist or (15:17) homophobic or transphobic or whatever they want to say. They did the same for YouTubers.(15:21) They did the same for content creators, those who got scholarships. They said this about ex-Muslims. (15:25) They said this about a variety of different individuals and people within our (15:29) uh, global, you could say nationwide as well from a U.S. perspective, movement.(15:35) And atheism is one of plenty of industries and causes and movements that got hijacked by what we know today as wokeism or social justice. (15:43) Uh, this kind of extreme intersectional belief system. (15:46) And so I was still very young.I was just 17, 18, 19 year old, just getting started, (15:52) just leading a local group, just getting out of high school. But I saw this social justice religious type stuff, culty behavior, (16:00) curtail a movement that I was ready to give them all my resume to be involved in. (16:05) And I saw plenty of my heroes go down in flames due to false accusations of stuff or getting kicked out for not being (16:10) intersectional enough.I saw (16:13) promises and programs that some of these organizations promised to fulfill, (16:16) not fulfilled, because again, they prioritize social justice over atheism. And for a few years, there was this absolute confusion. (16:23) I ended up going from community college after I led Long Island Atheist for two years to (16:27) university when (16:29) I had this WTF kind of moment.What the heck is going on? And I ended up realizing that the (16:34) national conversation, the national counterculture of new atheism that was (16:40) growing (16:41) in conjunction with non-religiosity growing in the West, that counterculture (16:45) needed to be continued. Not only did it need to be continued though, Mark, but it needed to be refined in a way that (16:53) this new movement or whatever didn’t get curtailed (16:57) to death like the old one. (17:00) Well, it also has to be palpable.It has to be palpable, digestible, but then it actually has to stand completely on its own. (17:08) It has to be a complete separate movement. And it’s almost like calling it atheism, (17:13) you know, for what it is.(17:15) That’s what it is. But like it’s almost just the liberty movement, you know, like we’re talking about LFG, right? (17:21) That’s a whole thing. I’m thinking like, what is LFG? It’s like liberty, freedom, and goodness.(17:26) It doesn’t have, you know, it’s goodness. Good is what God came from. (17:30) I mean, when we just look at the etymology, it just makes no sense.(17:33) So that is your task, is to find something that is separate from these hijacked people (17:39) but stands on its own. And that’s kind of where you’re at now? (17:43) Right. Doing all the good things that the new atheist movement did do (17:46) while refining it and not making the mistakes that they made in the past.We’re actually going to be bipartisan. (17:50) We’re actually going to care about individual rights. (17:52) We’re actually going to care about secularism and not care what your party registration is.We’re not going to, you know, (17:58) move you out of our organization just because you don’t ideologically agree with another member. (18:03) We’re going to do what the new atheists and the movement of all these (18:08) think tanks that originally existed promised the American people that they would do, but we’re actually going to mean it. (18:14) And so a few years ago, around five years ago, actually, myself and others from the movement founded Atheists for Liberty.(18:20) And so we have existed since then and continue to grow to this day. So that is kind of the (18:25) Thomas Sheehan journey into atheism, (18:28) atheist activism, and then just seeing all the craziness of the culture war and figuring out where I fit in all this. (18:37) Yeah, so (18:38) you mentioned obviously the things we want to keep.(18:41) The humanity portions, all the beautiful things, right? (18:44) What are a couple of those hiccups that you did find besides the social justice pieces? (18:49) So obviously the only thing you want to unite on is we don’t want religion to interfere with other, with (18:57) governance, I guess. (19:00) And any Republican, any Democrat, any libertarian who cares about liberty and cares about the Constitution should be on board with that, (19:07) even if you’re not an atheist, by the way. (19:08) And so this was a standard message that you think an organization like Americans United for Separation of Church and State (19:14) or American Atheists or the American Humanist Association would want to have all Americans digest because if you don’t have a (19:22) religious left or an apologetic religious left or a religious right, (19:26) like, you know, like clawing onto the coattails of one side in American politics, (19:32) that’s fantastic.That’s completing the mission, right? (19:36) Well, wrong, because you ended up having some of these people prefer their own religion, their own political ideology, their own dogma (19:43) over completing that atheist mission. (19:46) And that’s the problem. So one of the mistakes was is that, you know, funny that we met at Freedom Fest, (19:52) you didn’t see a lot of atheist activism happen on the political right.(19:56) So I’ll make something very clear before I go into some more detail. Atheist Liberty is not a right-wing organization, actually. (20:01) We’re also not a left-wing organization.We are an atheist organization. (20:04) So we have members that are Democrats who are members of the Democratic Party. We have members that are LP people.(20:09) We have members that are in the GOP. We have centrists and independents who don’t even want to have a registration at all. (20:15) And we have a set of values and pillars, though, and a mission that everybody can be on board with.(20:21) Because if you’re not in support of the mission, then just don’t join. Don’t be a part of our organization. It’s simple.(20:26) That’s the simple fact of this. So when the atheist movement was alive, the new atheist movement in the 2000s and 2010s, (20:32) it was fairly non-political. And this would be, let’s once again, let’s just bring it back to that.(20:36) This would be the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. So this would be the Daniel Dennett, (20:40) the Sam Harris, the Richard Dawkins, the Chris Hitchens, and all that. (20:44) And all the orgs that followed it and promoted them, American Atheists.(20:48) When he would have debates with like William Lane, David Craig, or William… (20:51) Yeah, William Lane Craig. That entire counterculture, Bill Nye versus Ken Ham, Ben Affleck v. Sam Harris. (21:00) This whole counterculture, this whole thing we saw online and offline, (21:04) you know, it was fairly, especially in the prime years, it was fairly non-partisan, but it always skewed left.(21:12) And I don’t really care. It did skew left. (21:14) Yeah, it did skew left because it had intellectuals involved.And generally intellectuals, people that come from colleges, live in vacuums, tend to be left. (21:20) I mean, we’re at Freedom Fest. We had Michael Schellenberger.We had Brett Weinstein. We had Robert Kennedy Jr. speak. (21:26) I mean, come on.We had Jill Stein debate and we had, you know, (21:30) it’s, you know, to your point. (21:31) And the problem was, is even in its prime, when the movement was healthy and at its peak and good, (21:38) you still didn’t see a lot of activism where you would see Atheist organizations go to CPAC, Freedom Fest, LibertyCon, (21:44) you name it, Gallup Gulch, all these different things, and reach out to other groups. (21:48) So, you know, (21:49) one of my mentors, the former president of American Atheists, he did force American Atheists to go to CPAC, (21:54) but it was based on his own executive decision as president with barely anybody else really backing him up in it.(21:59) So on the most part, you didn’t see that, but Netroots Nation, which is the progressive equivalent to Freedom Fest and CPAC, (22:06) you saw the American Humanist Association and the Secular Student Alliance and American Atheists go there all the time. (22:12) So that was a problem that was just easily seen even in the movement’s healthy years. (22:16) And if you have this mission, right, to want to normalize Atheism throughout all of American politics, Mark, (22:22) you would think that enough resources would also be diverted every year, (22:27) even in the years that followed the social justice takeover, right? (22:31) If you really care about normalizing Atheism, do it everywhere.And obviously you’re going to get more acceptance from the left in (22:38) 2016, 17, 18, 19 than the right. Boo-hoo. Who cares? (22:41) That just means you got to put more work into doing the same.(22:44) And who cares if you get accepted on the left and then you got to put another 10 years of effort to get accepted (22:48) on the right? That’s what happens with social movements every single year anyways in American history. (22:54) So why not put in that effort? Because once again, (22:57) these other Atheist groups, not to toot the same horn that people have seen me toot for the last few years while going on shows, (23:02) they prioritize that. So that’s just one example of (23:07) issues that that movement had when I was in it.And for many years, (23:10) I was cowardly and I didn’t admit it because I was a young kid getting involved. I was still kind of figuring it out. (23:16) Well, you had to, I mean, look, (23:19) once you start going down a rabbit hole, you’re locked in at a young person.(23:22) You don’t have your focus. (23:24) You don’t get the cognitive dissonance until later after you’ve kind of settled in and then you start (23:29) having time to contemplate other ideas. It sounded like you just put your head to the grindstone and just worked.(23:37) So you didn’t really have time to really think about it. You’re just pushing that window. (23:41) So it’s very interesting you talk about that because like (23:43) even groups like the ECLU, I mean, they protected Nazis marching on a street and they have now been corrupted to no longer, (23:51) I mean, for hate speech, for hate speech now, we’re talking for words on a screen.(23:57) It’s like what is going on here? (23:59) So now FATFOR, we’re in this place now, (24:03) if I could, (24:05) do you have a personal faith or a personal feeling about that? (24:10) Or do you share that or is it not about that in general? Because once again, (24:14) this is more of a, (24:15) what this is is to also humanize us, right? Because we are just like everyone else struggling to find who we are, (24:22) our place in this place, what we’re doing here, how it is. And I know (24:27) a lot of people who don’t have, who lose faith or something, (24:30) lose that other part, right? The purpose, the meaning, those other things. You clearly filled it in with this activism.(24:38) How have you seen the journey for some people that maybe you’ve seen (24:41) that struggle with that and other tools to help them manage that purpose part as they transition (24:48) away from a dogma or an ideology such as religion? (24:53) Yeah, so I’m, as of this recording, I’m 26. (24:56) And (24:58) you know, I’m a young professional. Half my age, man.(25:02) Literally. (25:05) So, you know, I’ve been struggling in trying to figure out things in my life too. (25:09) A lot of the typical things that one that, you know, goes through as an entrepreneur growing up in America, (25:14) trying to find this place.I’ve been through a lot. (25:17) I have been through a lot, you know, just over these last few years, seeing this entire social movement collapse in front of my face, (25:21) seeing some of my heroes, their careers end and blow up right in front of my face, having to go through three (25:28) massive life changes because of these different movements and communities going through splits, seeing people who I once considered to be friends (25:35) go after me, whether it be (25:39) you know, a lefty, a woke, you know, what you could argue, maybe woke-leaning atheists who now (25:44) don’t like me anymore because I came out with my real views on the social justice stuff to (25:49) even certain people on the right. I got involved in Republican politics actually very briefly and I saw (25:54) certain people just see me as a nice doormat.It’s weird. It happens, right? (25:59) Let’s get it. Let’s get into the MAGA cult real quick.Let’s do it. Let’s call that religion what it is. (26:04) The second Kyle Rittenhouse just makes a mention.He cares about 2A. (26:10) He mentions that he’s going to vote for Ron Paul and cat turd comes out of absolutely nowhere. (26:16) The guy with two million followers on Twitter and just attacks him.Joe Rogan says (26:20) Robert F. Kennedy makes sense and these people attack him. Are you kidding me? (26:24) Everybody attacked him. So look, I’m not going to make a stance on who I would prefer for president.(26:29) I don’t care if somebody calls me that. Right, not even that. It’s just watching that kind of behavior.(26:33) Yeah, yeah, it’s absolutely ridiculous. I’ve started to disagree more and more with Matt Walsh from the Daily Wire, (26:40) but he actually made a very good tweet that I really concurred with. (26:43) I don’t know if you saw it, where he was going after those who were going after (26:47) I think Rittenhouse and also those who were going after Joe Rogan (26:52) for simply having a view that he never said he was a right winger, by the way.(26:56) He never said that he was voting for Trump. First of all, he says he’s nothing but he’s only voted Democrat just to be clear. (27:01) I listen to the show.(27:03) It’s kind of funny when, and I’ve seen this, I’ve seen this a lot over the past year to year and a half. (27:09) I have seen, because I’ve been active in the Young Republicans, I’ve been active in certain spaces, (27:12) I’m not going to name particular names, (27:14) but I’ve seen people, people who I once considered to be trusted friends, people who were there for me throughout the years, (27:22) completely. (27:23) They say throughout the years, oh no, on a college campus or something.Oh, yes, we are the good guys. (27:28) We’re the ones who appreciate freedom of speech and we’re not like the woke left. Here we are.(27:32) We really care about this diversity of ideas. (27:35) We’re the real classical liberals to now, you know, maybe that was said in 2018, 19, 2021, (27:41) maybe even 22, but now in 2024, you have some of them completely going back against it and acting just like the woke left, (27:50) religiously left, (27:52) apologist demagogues that we criticize. So it’s kind of funny to see that.(27:57) If anything, it makes me more proud to run a 501c3 because we have great members of our organization (28:03) who are going to vote for former President Trump. (28:05) We have great members of our organization who are going to vote for Kamala Harris. (28:08) We have great members of our organization that are going to vote for Chase Oliver and RF Kennedy Jr. and others.(28:14) I don’t care at this point. I care, (28:17) and I made a tweet about this, I care if you want to see (28:21) a civilization that’s propped up on enlightenment values and survive the next 100 years than you (28:26) dying and scrambling on the next election that’ll happen in one year. (28:29) Because guess what’s going to happen? Every four years, the most important elections in my lifetime.(28:35) It’s the biggest election of our lifetimes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I’ll actually concede (28:39) I do think that certain elections more in the modern day with our freedoms of speech being curtailed are more important than past elections. (28:46) But every election, it’s going to get more dire than others. (28:49) I care about who you are as a person because I’ve seen Democrats betray me.I’ve seen Republicans betray me. (28:54) I’ve seen so-called advocates of liberty betray me. By the way, I don’t have a big list of people that have done this.(28:59) It is very miniscule, but I have seen people grift and go, you know, (29:03) get away from what they really stand for and it’s disgusting. And so I care about promoting enlightenment values. (29:10) I care about leading Atheists for Liberty, this org that I’ve been running for the last several years, (29:14) into victory, us accomplishing our mission and one day, (29:17) you know, maybe it takes 10 years, maybe it takes 50 years, (29:20) maybe it takes two years, eventually closing up shop and saying mission accomplished because a non-profit is not meant to last forever.(29:28) And doing a good thing for the betterment of civilization. (29:31) And if it means making more allies where I can and putting, you know, (29:34) being an adult and trying to agree and to disagree where we can, that’s great. (29:38) And if others want to continue to do that with me, that is fantastic, too.(29:41) We all don’t have to agree on everything. (29:42) I’ll act like we’re still in 2020 and we’re all in agree to disagree for the benefit of free speech mode, (29:48) you know, for those that want to play that game with me, but I’m not going to cower away from our ideals (29:54) just to appease people who will go back against what they really care about. (29:58) Right, and it makes so much sense and you sit here and you watch these ideals.It’s like they’re getting stripped away. (30:04) We’re stripping them away ourselves and it makes no sense why we would do this to ourselves. I mean, (30:10) the way I’ve always looked at this, or I guess it’s taken a very long time because I’m still deprogramming at 49, but (30:17) I’m looking at this whole thing and (30:20) it’s like why are we trading one set of tyranny for another? (30:24) Like Christopher Hitchens says it so succinctly.It’s like you’re talking about (30:28) you were born free because God made you free, but that doesn’t make you free then because you’re under that. (30:35) You’re under an eternal king, an eternal North Korea, an eternal North Korea. (30:39) Right, and I try to understand that.I try to parse with that because (30:43) that’s the part where it really just becomes very evident. It’s like (30:48) because we would want to impose our will on others is why no one should be allowed to impose anyone’s will on anyone else. (30:55) Like (30:55) how do we not? (30:57) How is that message not (30:59) clear enough for people to just grasp? It’s like, excuse me, if you had it your way, wouldn’t you want to do it your way? (31:05) Okay.Well, if I had it my way, I’d want to do it my way. So considering that’s the case, (31:09) why should we force any of our ways on anyone? (31:12) Hello? I mean, it’s, you know, (31:15) so I’m kind of there, you know. (31:18) So that’s why I usually find common cause with people in the liberty movement, even though we have atheists for the beginning.(31:22) We’re more of an atheist organization because of a cognitive liberty, but we’re easily able to market in the liberty movement (31:30) because of this. (31:32) Yeah, it’s the ultimate liberty. I mean, it’s really the truth.(31:34) I mean, you want to talk free will that would be the one about stepping away from any tyranny (31:38) or any servitude or anything like that. Just being purposeful and being mindful to your (31:45) compatriot, to your person, because of courtesy, because of humanity, because we have to do this because we’re all in this together. (31:50) I mean, that’s kind of the point of how that’s the way around that other part.You know what I mean? (31:55) Is that we’re all sharing this, so we got to get through it, you know? (31:58) But yeah, exactly. So yeah, so (32:03) how large is your organization? How many? I saw a pretty big list of (32:06) people in your leadership team. We have 300 to 350 members spanning across the country.(32:12) We’re growing day by day, state directors across the nation. (32:15) We’re trying to get to 50 state directors before the end of the year, and I think we can accomplish it. (32:19) Programs offline and online.(32:22) So we do (32:23) different receptions throughout the country, community engagement events throughout the country. (32:27) We do discord events and game nights for members, x spaces with some of the leading figures in the culture wars. (32:32) I host a show on Tuesday nights called Unbound Ideas.It’s showcasing the greatest minds of the 21st century. (32:38) That’s primarily through YouTube, but we’re also on x and Facebook, and we have two other YouTube shows as well. (32:43) We have a show called Atheist Insights, which is Peter Clarke interviewing a lot of rising stars in the world of atheism.(32:49) It’s a recorded podcast. We have a philosophy show called Heirs of Fire. So John, who you met, aka Ruin of the Gods, (32:57) he is getting involved in diving deep into a lot of different ideas (33:01) and challenging a lot of people on a lot of things, which he’s creating, quite frankly, a lot of good content that people want (33:07) to see.So we’re doing so much at Atheists for Liberty. (33:11) College tour coming up. Street epistemology on college campuses.We’re trying to be involved with (33:17) Professor Richard Dawkins, the most famous atheist in the world. (33:19) He is on his final tour, about to embark on his final tour throughout the United States, Canada, and Europe. (33:25) So we’re trying to find ways to be involved there.(33:28) It’s interesting. He’s an interesting one because (33:32) I’ve watched the four horsemen kind of lose a little luster, (33:35) each of them kind of falling a little bit. The only one that kind of survived, I think, in my opinion, was Dennett.(33:41) Because he passed, what, a couple months ago? (33:44) I think in May or March or something. (33:46) And I watched, there was a great conversation between he and Peterson right before he passed, about three weeks before. (33:51) And you saw the bandage on his head.You saw he was kind of worried. (33:54) But he’s serious about getting on, you know. (33:57) Right.Yeah, it was pretty amazing. (33:59) And I found him to be the most rational because he never seemed to get out of his lane in an interesting way. (34:05) I feel Harris completely got Trump derangement syndrome in addition to the Muslim stuff.(34:10) I know Hitchens had his stuff too, but Hitchens was a very unique character. I mean, he’s very complicated. (34:16) But Dennett was the one I always saw.(34:18) Yes, and I have. And certainly, once again, (34:21) your imperfection. (34:23) Well, we look at, don’t we look at the ideas? (34:25) I mean, we can look at the brilliance that they are within those things that they are.We can compartmentalize because (34:29) a person is not just a collection of their ideas. (34:32) They have, sometimes they have a great idea and a horrible idea, just how it is, right? (34:36) So I watched this, but, you know, watching, (34:40) was it Dennett? (34:42) Just be so rational and be so, he just seems so pure (34:46) in the way he spoke. (34:47) He didn’t seem to have the resentment or carry any kind of resentment like (34:51) some of those, but Dawkins has that thing with Israel recently where he had that imperialistic thing.(34:55) It’s like, why can’t these people figure out like what everything that’s good, you know what I mean? (35:00) It kind of like, it unfortunately taints it, you know. (35:03) Especially when it comes to people, you look up to heroes, right? You know, they have a view that’s not always. It’s hard.(35:08) I have my own personal disagreements, probably with which each horseman, two of the ones that are still alive and two of the ones (35:14) that are fortunately no longer alive. (35:16) But I learned to appreciate them for the contributions that they made to civilization and that’s why I love about AFL, (35:22) you know, I’m pulling Mr. HR Manager, being apologetic, totally admit it. (35:27) But that’s what I like about Atheists for Liberty.We can, the fact that we can have, (35:31) agree to disagree, the fact that we can, you know, be in this environment with people that have so many different views, (35:37) but still appreciate them for the good things that they can contribute to where we don’t get off track and dismiss somebody just because of (35:43) those disagreements. So I try really hard to like, (35:47) be that non-profit president and like not let my personal views get in the way because there are some times where I look at (35:52) certain famous atheists from the past and some of the things they said and you know, and just get really upset, but that’s, (35:58) that’s what the woke atheists did. They saw something that Richard Dawkins said that they disagree with.(36:03) They threw him under the bus. The American Humanist Association in 2021 (36:07) took away his 1996 Humanist of the Year award and gave it to Anthony Fauci instead. (36:12) Even though to be fair, whoa, really three as well.Yeah. Yeah. Has anyone written a story about this? Has anybody like a reason? (36:20) Yeah, so we, we, if you go to atheistsforliberty.org, you go to our statement section.(36:24) I wrote a statement that was played on a bunch of different podcasts about the matter and I do talk about that. (36:28) We talk about that as well on our YouTube channel. So you can, you can search it up, especially a lot of my (36:33) appearances from around 2021 going into 2022.You’ll, you’ll, you’ll find me talking a lot about it. (36:39) Um, I, I, I met Richard Dawkins for the first time back in May and I was so (36:45) giddy. It was like meeting, you know, even running Atheist Liberty, it’s like meeting one of your heroes.It was, it was, (36:50) Oh, I mean, I can’t. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.I mean, we saw Steve Forbes. (36:53) I mean, some of the people, Bret Weinstein, Schellenberger at, at Freedom Fest was just like absolute starstruck, you know? (36:59) Yeah. And so with me, Dawkins was one of those, you know, because he helped shape my life in many ways.(37:04) And I, I was like, I think I went up to him and I said like, (37:06) people told me to make an interesting comment to you about your socks to try to get into a combo with you, (37:11) but I don’t think that’s going to work. So hi, my name is Thomas. And, uh, (37:14) we met at Dissonant Dialogues a few months ago.And one of the openers, you know, that, that (37:18) had me continue the conversation was, you know, (37:21) it was so disturbing to see what happened to you in 2021 with these people betraying you (37:26) and everything that you accomplished and did for us in the United States, did for our civilization as a (37:31) normal biologist who just wanted to communicate the truth. And he was about to debate Ayaan Hirsi Ali. (37:37) And I said, no matter what, we still stand by you.(37:40) Don’t, don’t deviate. Be the Richard Dawkins that we know you to be. I said that to him.(37:44) I don’t know if he remembers, but, um, right. (37:47) I think that’s the one where they actually, that’s where Russell, Russell got, (37:50) got, Dabler got him after about the thing with Israel. It might’ve been after the Hirsi Ali one.(37:56) He must’ve been, because he seemed a bit rattled. He seemed a bit, a little off his, (38:00) yeah. (38:02) He might’ve not been a little under the weather or something.I don’t know, but, but it seems (38:06) interesting. He’s, he’s in his eighties, you know, he’s, he’s been doing, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, (38:10) yeah, this tour is going to be the final one.I don’t blame him. Absolutely. I think he’s accomplished.(38:15) Yeah. I mean, the selfish gene is just absolute. (38:17) I mean, come on, meme, literally meme.I mean, we have, (38:22) it’s like Monty Python invented spam and he invented meme. I mean, who, I mean, what weird, (38:27) what kind of weird world are we living in? You know, it definitely makes you think it’s a simulation, right? (38:32) So, (38:34) so it’s, so you have these, these interesting liberty things and, and it is beautiful. (38:37) So you met Dawkins and have you met Harris yet then? I have not met Harris.(38:41) He, of the three that were alive before April of 2024, I only met Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett. (38:47) So Dennett was the first horseman I actually ever met. I was just out of high school, my freshman year of college.(38:51) It was a FFRF, Freedom From Religion Foundation Convention (38:55) in 2016. This was in Pittsburgh. (38:58) And, (38:59) and I met him and, oh my God, (39:02) I had my, my friend embarrassed himself in front of him because I gave my friend wrong information.(39:05) I thought Dennett taught at Harvard. And so I’m like, yeah, yeah, that’s a great end. (39:09) And he’s like, I didn’t teach at Harvard.I’m like, oh. (39:12) But I don’t think, I don’t think he remembered. I don’t think he remembered.I’ve got mouth disease. It’s okay. (39:19) You know what it is though, Thomas, when you’re trying to, when you network, when you network, believe me, (39:23) how many times did you stick your foot in your mouth, misspeak, like even just at Freedom Fest, (39:27) you’re just like, you’re, you’re John Thompson.I’m like, I’m Jim Jordanson. What are you talking about? I have no, you know, (39:33) you’re like, ah. I was starstruck.I was starstruck this year. I was at Freedom Fest. (39:36) I was staying in the Link Hotel, which was one of the two hotels that were linked to the (39:40) Caesars Convention Center, at least that we were staying at Caesars Forum.And, um, (39:45) uh, I remember passing by the hotel check-in because I needed to get something from my room. (39:50) And the guy who read, wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad, (39:52) uh, was just hanging out. Kiyosaki, Kiyosaki, right? Kiyosaki was just hanging out.Robert Kiyosaki. I was like passing by. (39:58) I was like, I was trying not to look too much at him, but like, (40:02) that, that’s him, right? And then he came by the Atheists for Liberty booth and he was like just touring the convention hall.(40:07) I’m like, I’m a big fan of your books. (40:09) I love everything you do because I binge like business. I’m a early Zoomer.(40:12) I binge business and capitalist and entrepreneur TikTok, just for fun. (40:17) I always love like, you know, grind set TikTok. Right.And so there’s a lot of clips of him. (40:21) And so I just binged him, binged him, binged him. And it was so (40:25) crazy to still meet him.Even to this day after doing politics and meeting heroes, (40:29) like you would think that you would kind of just be used to it. And in some ways, I guess I am. (40:33) But, but when you meet somebody new that, that starstruck feeling like I’m in high school, it came right back.(40:39) And I was, well, the one that got me was Massey. (40:41) It was morning in Massey and I was videotaping the front and it was early. (40:46) I mean, it was very early.People were still filing in or whatever. (40:48) Something popped in my head to head to the back, to step to the back. (40:51) And I just almost walked right into him.And I’m like, yeah, (40:54) I’m like, Rep Massey, you know, it’s like (40:57) and it’s the most amazing story. And like I have to share because it’s (41:01) right. And it’s just, it’s just the humanity that it is though.Right. I walk up to him like, first thing, (41:06) obviously, I’m so sorry for the loss of your wife. You know, it’s the first, it just happened, right? (41:11) It was just the first thing.And he looked at me and he just like, he goes, I crawled, cried all night tonight (41:15) so I wouldn’t have to today. And it’s like (41:18) that’s what it’s all about. I mean, he, you know what I mean? He, (41:22) his desire for to spread the liberty message, (41:26) he put himself through that.I mean, he put himself through that agony. It was so recent and I can’t imagine what that’s like. (41:33) So I admire people who are able to have that kind of fortitude.So I just much respect to people who get through that stuff. (41:40) Yeah, it’s something that (41:43) I’ve had to deal with a little bit on a minor level, but I’m unfortunately going to have to deal with it on more (41:48) major levels as I get older. (41:50) I don’t think I’m going to change my views.I don’t think I’m going to change my values or anything like that. (41:55) You know, just saying future people, you know, (41:59) but, I don’t think your values are bad. I think, you know what I mean? (42:03) Views might change, but I don’t think the values are.(42:05) The whole idea of crisis of meaning and all that, a lot of people, they have these thoughts, (42:08) you know, when they lose loved ones or lose family members or lose spouses. I saw it happen to my grandfather. (42:14) Yeah, because you become a caretaker.(42:16) So there’s your meaning for a while and then that meaning goes away, right? (42:20) You see somebody who you thought had it together because you looked up to them so much, (42:24) instantly (42:26) just fade into an abyss in terms of not knowing (42:29) what to do with life. It scares you a little bit. (42:33) It scares you a little bit because you’re like, oh my god, this could happen to me.Maybe this… It’s a mirror. (42:38) Yeah, it’s a mirror for what is (42:40) unfortunately to come. The way you deal with it might be a little different, (42:43) but the struggle will be the same (42:47) as you’re a human being.(42:49) And even to make that full circle, we talk about religion and everything like that and we talk about family. (42:54) Well, if we look at the evolution, it is the parents would raise the children, the children grow up, the parents would get older, (42:59) parents can no longer care for themselves, the children would then help care for the parents at the end. (43:04) This is the circle.This is the circle. It’s kind of how it is. (43:07) That has nothing to do with any faith in anything else other than faith in yourself and your fellow human.(43:16) Exactly. That’s what makes me connect to people regardless of culture, wars, and who’s this religion or that religion. (43:24) Especially when I’ve gotten older, it’s made me care a lot more about my family and (43:29) the great things my family’s done for me.It makes you a little more humble. (43:35) That’s why I tell people, I’ve already been there. I’ve already been feeling these things and I’m still so early in the game.(43:43) It feels like I’ve been through three lifetimes of activism with movements crumbling and building back up. (43:49) It sounds like you’ve done it about 10 years now at a young age. I mean, that’s a third of your life already.(43:55) I mean, that’s a pretty impressive number. I’m still trying to find myself, like I said, at my age. (44:01) If I may ask a couple questions, we had some social justice, you mentioned some social justice issues and infiltration.(44:07) How did COVID play out with social, with authoritarianism, masking the vaccines? (44:13) How did that religion or that cult kind of thing play into the atheism and how did that infiltrate your (44:20) or did it, you know, how did that affect your organization? (44:24) Especially when we were in our startup phase, (44:26) there’d be some photos that we would put out on our social media back in the day in like 2020, 2021, (44:32) of like us going to an event and us taking a photo like me and my (44:35) board chairman at the time or me at a conference, a free speech conference with a few other atheists that were on our advisory board (44:41) or whatever, all smiling, all having our masks off, whatever. Even at events that required us to have masks, (44:47) we’d take it off for two seconds and we would comply with the mask rules at the time or else (44:51) some of these events couldn’t even go on. We knew what had to be done.(44:55) Everybody knew that the masks were like underneath us, right? And we were taking it for just two seconds (45:00) anyways, and we got attacked by the woke (45:04) crowd that took over the old movement on Twitter, on Facebook and all these spaces saying, (45:09) oh, look at how bad you guys are. When half of them did the same thing anyways, but of course we have the wrong views (45:15) so we have to be called out for it. So Matt Dillahunty went after us a lot, a bunch of these social justice, (45:21) I hate to say it, atheists.(45:23) Yeah, I mean, you know, they’re not, well, they’re not with your movement. They’re not, they’re not liberty atheists. (45:28) They might be atheists, but they’re not liberty atheists, apparently.(45:31) No, they’re not, they’re not the, and they’re not the atheists like in my view that they were (45:34) back in the day when they started. Non-partisan or at least caring about the mission. They prioritized (45:40) a new religion over that original mission.(45:43) And we got attacked in some other ways. We did make one, I guess you could say religion friendly (45:49) comment in one view that we have. It’s that (45:52) we were not a fan of the government forcing churches to do certain things (45:57) when COVID was going on.Forcing to shut down, forcing to do certain, (46:01) to shut down some of their essential services or whatever. I’m a firebrand atheist. (46:06) I fit technically that anti-theist definition.I actually don’t use it because people think that I hate religious people. (46:11) So I say I’m a firebrand atheist. Some people say militant atheist.I say firebrand atheist. (46:17) I’ve been able to articulate my anti-theism, so I’ll share it, but I want to hear the rest of yours in a second. (46:23) I’m not a fan of religion whatsoever.(46:25) I love religious people and I love the first amendment and I care about religious liberty deeply. (46:29) So even as that passionate atheist that I am, (46:33) I made a stance and we made some stances on our social media (46:37) saying that we think churches should remain open even during COVID because of separation between church and state. (46:42) But it’s also authoritarian in general because your stance is liberty.You’re atheist for liberty. (46:49) It just happens to be you’re an atheist, but you’re actually fighting for the liberty part. (46:54) I mean, it’s really, the atheist actually isn’t really the labeling part.(46:59) It’s the liberty part really. (47:01) We’re not abandoning our atheism and our passion for atheism and we’re not (47:04) caring too much about just the liberty stuff and we’re not caring too much about the atheism stuff where we abandon. (47:09) Well, you’re not pushing your atheism on others.You’re not forcing others to not believe. You’re saying I am free to not believe. (47:17) That is what you’re saying.We’ll give our stances and we’ll joke about religion. We’ll be passionate about it. (47:22) We’ll state our views, but we care about the first amendment.(47:26) We are Americans at the end of the day. Beautiful. And you even have the flag hanging correct.The blue is top left corner. (47:32) So, thank you. (47:33) It’s one of those one things like if you’re going to do it, do it right.(47:37) Exactly. If you’re going to do it. I’m not saying to do it or not do it.I don’t advocate anything. (47:42) I’m just saying if you’re going to do it one way, do it the right way, right? (47:45) So, it’s very interesting. So, the anti-theism.So, this is how I explain it. Maybe you can help me (47:51) hone it even better, but it’s like anti-theism is this. Theism is the human (47:58) interpretation of whatever God is.(48:01) I may not know what the interpretation of God is. I just know that humans do not have it right. (48:07) That’s the only thing I know.And the theism part is actually the human (48:12) creation of the God entity and how it interplays. And that’s what I actually combat. (48:19) Not whether the entity exists or what the entity or what (48:22) even if there is one or not, it has nothing to do with that.It is just the interpretation and someone’s (48:30) kind of rule over me using that interpretation, which I don’t know what it is (48:34) because I’m working it out in myself and everyone else is, and I’m sure you are too. We’ve all had personal experiences. (48:41) But I just know that that’s not correct.And that’s what I combat against. (48:45) I mainly combat that too. So, as the leader of Atheist for Liberty, as the founder and president, (48:50) I, of course, will have that conversation.I’m no longer of the view. I have this being like 2020. (48:55) Let’s put the God conversation aside and then only talk about this, this, and this.(48:59) Well, a few years have passed since COVID. A few years have passed since our inception. A few years have passed since we (49:04) started talking about woke this, woke that, blah, blah, blah, you know.So, no, I’m open to having those conversations. (49:11) I think it’s important to have those conversations. But simultaneously, I still care about the Big Ten.(49:15) So, if we have secularists in the Liberty Movement, for instance, just an example, who care about (49:22) us being in the Liberty Movement, us caring about trusted separation, us caring about religious liberty, us caring about atheists and even other religious minorities (49:30) being treated with dignity and equality of opportunity and the liberty that they deserve to have a voice within the Liberty Movement, (49:38) I am going to, you know, make interfaith alliances when I can, as long as I’m not dishonest with myself or how I communicate to people. (49:46) So, I’ve become friends recently with the head of the Hindu American Foundation. (49:50) We obviously have big disagreements probably when it comes to Hinduism and belief in the supernatural.(49:55) I’m not going to hide that. But just like any coalition that you’re in, you have allies. Allies are not meant to be (50:03) lockstep in your army, right? (50:06) You know, but there’s enough agreement and maybe over 50 percent agreement (50:11) where these people are more on your side than against your side.That’s what allies are. (50:15) They’re not meant to fully be in lockstep with you. And as a leader of any organization or any movement, (50:19) you have to learn who those allies are and to be able to be mature enough (50:23) to have that tent, to have that coalition (50:26) built up for you to care about some important fights you might be involved in.(50:31) And that’s why we’re always welcome to FreedomFest every single year because we recognize (50:34) when we can share our agreements more than our disagreements. (50:39) Yeah, well, Valerie, Mark, they’re great. Valerie Durham, (50:43) and yeah, Mark Stalzin, Haley, they’re just phenomenal.(50:46) Yeah, it’s just amazing watching that. Well, that’s really great. Well, it was just a pleasant conversation, Thomas.(50:53) I know you probably need to go in a little bit here, (50:55) but if you have any other topic you’d like to talk about, like I said, I’m all ears. (50:59) So, you know, Mark, and we’ll definitely chat a little bit, you know, (51:02) I’d love to chat with you for a few minutes after the program because I’ll just tell people I want to talk with you (51:06) about maybe getting involved with us and what we do. (51:09) Whenever I hear (51:11) people like yourself have these conversations with me, either if it’s on the air like this or like (51:15) in a casual format, like if you visit our booth and we got to talking a little bit more, (51:19) I tell people, okay, I have to snag you.I have to get you in the fight. (51:22) And the reason why, you know, I’m not just being a good non-profit president and saying this, (51:26) we do have a fight ahead of us. So we have, you know, it’s great to talk about what we’re for.(51:31) We are for liberty, but what’s great about atheist organizations, yes, (51:35) atheist groups in many ways focus on what they are against. A lot of people find that to be a negative and (51:39) you don’t have this philosophy or that philosophy to show you, you know, to build. But you’re for liberty.(51:45) You’re for liberty. Like it’s just, you got to look at that back part. Yeah, look at the back part.We are for liberty. (51:50) That’s great. And that’s where we’re able to solve that question.(51:54) But sometimes people also think that like being against something is super duper negative in and of itself. (51:58) No, sometimes being against bad ideas is a positive. Sometimes you need people that are willing to throw punches.(52:04) We are in a culture war and we need people to help fight this war. We need activists. (52:09) We need people that are educators.(52:10) We want people to be a part of our community because it helps strengthen our branding and our ability to fight for enlightenment values. (52:17) So (52:18) for people, you know, that are interested in getting involved in our discord server and wanting to see the events (52:22) we have privately for members and our game nights and stuff like that really showing that we can (52:26) provide you with somewhat of a sense of community and purpose, you know, not in person. (52:30) I highly encourage you to join and become a member.(52:32) I highly encourage you to join and become a member, guys, if you’re interested in being involved (52:37) with Atheist for Liberty in a major city or town near you. We’re rebuilding the local atheist meetup apparatus with our state directors. (52:44) I highly encourage you to volunteer (52:47) at Atheist for Liberty.We have a volunteer Google page (52:50) where we’re looking for people to join our various volunteer committees from those that can help us put out social media posts to graphic creation to (52:56) people that have a knowledge of certain state laws to policies, (53:00) to people that want to help volunteer with us at conferences or AFL events or help, you know, (53:05) run the cameras for our college tour, you name it, donors, everything. (53:10) AtheistforLiberty.org, guys, A-T-H-E-I-S-T-S-F-O-R-L-I-B-E-R-T-Y.org. (53:16) You can also follow me at Sheedethom, (53:18) that’s S-H-E-E-D-Y-T-H-O-M, and follow Atheist for Liberty on a multitude of platforms. (53:23) Just search up Atheist for Liberty or Atheist Liberty on most platforms.(53:27) You’ll find us. Give us a follow because we do so many, we go on so many podcasts, (53:31) but we also do interactive x spaces that we allow people to come on in and be speakers in. (53:35) We do so much, and I’m already going on a marketing rant that I shouldn’t even go on.(53:39) Just join. Join the movement. (53:41) If you really understand that there are authoritarians at the gate, (53:45) whether they be Christian nationalists, (53:47) not in the CNN way that people describe Christian nationalists, (53:49) real Christian nationalists, Islamists, or people in various forms of orthodoxy (53:55) that want to tear apart the separation between church and state, (53:58) the woke religion in and of itself who wants to think that America’s an evil imperialist experiment (54:03) that needs to be taken down based on this new intersectional religious way of thinking.(54:07) These are all enemies of liberty. (54:09) These are all enemies of your own autonomy. (54:12) And yes, I know some people say, well, I’m very individualistic.(54:15) I can’t join a collective in any way. (54:17) I get it. (54:18) But if you want liberty, you need to fight for a group.(54:21) Once that fight is done, then you should be left alone. (54:24) Then you can break away from the group and be left alone. (54:25) I want you to be left alone.(54:26) I want to be left alone, too. (54:28) I’m 26. (54:29) I’m trying to figure out as many ways to be left alone (54:31) and have a prosperous, good economic life as much as I can.(54:34) Believe me, guys. (54:35) But we have to fight in order to have that. (54:38) And we need each and every one of you to join us in that fight, Mark, yourself included.(54:42) So I want to say, Mark, end of tangent. (54:45) I told you I go on tangents, too. (54:47) Thank you so much for having me on, man.(54:49) And I’m looking forward to chatting with you more in the future. (54:54) Absolutely. (54:55) Thank you so much for joining us.(54:56) You’re officially part of the Knocked Conscious family. (54:58) I’m sure we’re going to definitely talk offline as soon as I hit end here. (55:01) But I will put all your links and everything up in the show notes and everything like that.(55:08) So thank you again for joining us. (55:10) Thomas Sheedy, president and founder of Atheist For Liberty. (55:16) Just remember the For Liberty part.(55:18) That’s what we need to worry about. (55:19) That’s what we are for. (55:21) That’s what we are all about.(55:22) Thank you. (55:22) Exactly. (55:23) So thank you again.(55:24) Welcome to the Knocked Conscious family. (55:25) Have yourself a great Monday evening, and we will talk in a second offline, sir. (55:31) Take care.