Mark welcomes Laura Johnson Dahlke, author of “OUTER ORIGIN: A Discourse on Ectogenesis & the Value of Human Experience”.
It was an interesting conversation regarding ectogenesis & its possible ramifications.
Website; https://www.laurajohnsondahlke.com/
Outro: ”Goodnight, Sweetheart, Goodnight” – This score is in public domain and may be freely downloaded, printed, and performed. The sound file may be downloaded for personal use. For more information see https://lincolnlibraries.org/polley-music-library/
Transcript:
(0:00) Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Knocked Conscious. (0:04) Today I had the pleasure of speaking with Laura Johnson-Dahlke. (0:07) She’s the author of Outer Origin, a discourse on ectogenesis and (0:12) the value of human experience.(0:14) It was a great conversation. (0:16) Here it is. (0:16) I hope you enjoy it.(0:18) Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Knocked Conscious. (0:22) Today, I have the pleasure of speaking with Laura Johnson-Dahlke. (0:27) She is the author of Outer Origin.(0:30) A discourse on ectogenesis and the value of human experience. (0:35) Welcome, Laura. (0:37) If I may start this conversation, I was at a place called Freedom (0:42) Fest in Las Vegas about a month or two ago, and Mark Skousen is the person (0:47) who sets it up and people like Steve Forbes are there, Brett Weinstein, (0:52) Michael Schellenberger, there’s a bunch of very smart people.(0:55) Robert F. (0:56) Kennedy did a speech there. (0:57) There was a presidential debate. (0:59) The theme of this year, surprisingly enough, was Brave New World.(1:05) I remember speaking to the organizers and I was like, are we Brave New World? (1:11) Are we 1984? (1:13) Are we a little mix? (1:14) Everybody’s talking different things because we’re seeing this almost like (1:18) this Titanic perfect storm of every dystopian book following us all at the (1:23) same time, so you reach out to me after this Freedom Fest thing and Brave New (1:28) World was the whole theme of this and ectogenesis, so please tell us about who (1:33) you are and what ectogenesis is and we’ll go from there. (1:37) Okay. (1:37) Well, thank you so much for having me on the show.(1:42) So actually I do address Brave New World in my book as well. (1:46) I get into Huxley and his commentary, but I really began the journey with (1:54) Outer Origin because I wanted to write about something related to pregnancy, (2:00) childbirth, and maternity care. (2:03) And when I started doing my coursework for my PhD, it led me into (2:10) learning more about ectogenesis.(2:13) We read Brave New World and Frankenstein and other philosophy of (2:19) technology essays and things. (2:23) And so I kind of just, it funneled me into ectogenesis as my topic. (2:30) And ectogenesis as it currently stands would just be partial ectogenesis, full (2:39) ectogenesis or complete ectogenesis is what I really address in my book.(2:43) It is yet to happen, but we’re moving in that direction. (2:48) And it’s depicted, of course, in Brave New World where we are growing infants (2:55) from the blastocyst stage all the way to birth, which we currently can’t do. (3:03) But so the first step would be then to have this partial ectogenesis where (3:11) we’re taking a preterm birth or fetus and placing them in this womb-like (3:19) environment for better outcomes.(3:22) And so that’s the thing that’s really getting going now. (3:25) But there’s always kind of like a, like almost if you had like a premature (3:28) baby, you’d have the incubator. (3:31) This would kind of be a very advanced version of that, that would replace a (3:36) certain time of the gestation period.(3:38) Absolutely. (3:39) So yes, that is what they’re working on. (3:41) And this is currently pretty advanced in its stage.(3:47) It’s research being done at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, led (3:52) by Alan Flake and Emily Carter. (3:55) That’s crazy. (3:56) I actually had a bad car accident in 1988 and I was at the (3:59) Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia.(4:00) Oh, were you really? (4:01) Yeah, very small. (4:03) Is that where you are now? (4:04) Are you? (4:05) No, I’m from Philadelphia, but I’m in Phoenix now. (4:08) But my parents are still there.(4:10) Yeah. (4:10) Interesting. (4:11) So yes, it’s being done there.(4:14) And it’s what they call a biobag system. (4:18) So it’s in a, and they, they put lamb fetuses in, in the bag and had success. (4:24) They kept them alive for about four weeks.(4:28) But they’re putting them in a simulated amniotic fluid. (4:33) And then they’re able to pump oxygenated blood through their own heart, rather (4:39) than an external source, which is what incubators are doing now. (4:47) It’s from an external source.(4:48) It’s like an assistance, right? (4:49) There’s more of an assistance. (4:51) And usually the problems occur with these preterm infants because of their lung (4:56) development isn’t where it needs to be. (4:58) And this would assist that and hopefully reduce morbidity and mortality and (5:06) probably reduce the line of viability, which is right now about at 22 weeks (5:12) gestation, so, which is pretty early.(5:16) Cause I think it started out at maybe 34 weeks when all of this (5:19) began in terms of incubators. (5:23) But yeah, so that is, that’s that side of things. (5:27) So that’s the, um, after the baby has started its gestation.(5:34) And, um, (5:34) So there have been some amazing technologies, obviously IVF, that would be, (5:39) I mean, in a weird way, that’s kind of an early ectogenesis and the fact that (5:43) the, I guess the, you know, the sperm gets activated or whatever it gets, you (5:50) know, I can’t even think of the term, but that would happen outside and then be (5:55) put into a, to a human for the rest of that. (5:58) So you speak of oxygenated blood and things like that. (6:01) Are they also talking about a certain temperature regulation, a heartbeat, (6:05) like a simulated heartbeat from what would be the mother, like what would be (6:09) the carrier from a biological standpoint? (6:12) What other kinds of things do they consider when they talk about, (6:16) uh, that kind of environment for.(6:19) They’re really trying to recreate what the womb environment, what it would be (6:24) like, um, with, uh, inside a mother. (6:29) Um, and I think it’s not a direct quote here, but Flake, Alan Flake is, was (6:35) saying, you know, that it’s meant to recreate the womb environment in every way. (6:42) And so they would be looking at temperature and, um, heartbeat and trying (6:47) to recreate this in every way possible.(6:51) Yeah. (6:52) And right now, um, they’ve gone to the FDA and are seeking (6:57) approval for, um, human trials. (7:02) And so the FDA is currently considering, um, this device and it’s sort of that (7:08) first step in potentially being able to put human babies, and it would be at this (7:14) point, um, fetal rescue in a sense, or it would be those born perhaps, maybe, (7:23) you know, at that 22 week mark, which would have very, um, kind of slim (7:29) chances of survival and a lot of, um, morbidity or problems if they did live.(7:36) So, um, I think the public acceptance of this could be high based on that, that (7:42) it could really assist, um, these preterm deliveries, but there is on the other side. (7:51) Oh, sorry. (7:52) Go ahead.(7:52) No, no, that is that, that, that was the question I was going to ask (7:55) is we’re looking at that side. (7:56) And we hear, you know, we, we, we come, technology does a lot of things for us. (8:02) And we’ll talk about that obviously down the road a little bit, but, um, we, it’s (8:07) crazy how we talk about the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right? (8:14) Yes.(8:15) Yeah. (8:15) And I w I would say if I were unable to have a child and if someone came to me and (8:19) said, I’m able to have, I know people who’ve had miscarriages who’ve gone (8:22) through a lot of hardships, if you could just walk up with them and say, this (8:27) is what I’m able to offer you, I’m able to offer you legacy and offspring birth. (8:32) What was something that you’ve, that you just biologically have desired your (8:35) entire life, it sounds on its face.(8:40) Glorious. (8:40) It sounds miraculous. (8:42) And you know, we’re in a very true way.(8:44) It is miraculous. (8:45) It’s the miracle of science, but there’s gotta be a shady side to this. (8:50) Is there not? (8:51) Then I’m, I know your book addresses a lot of that.(8:53) And I’m curious where, where your part comes in from the pro side and (8:57) then addresses those parts and how you perceive all of that. (9:01) Right. (9:01) So, um, well, I think that yes, it is, it would be very, um, alluring and (9:09) potentially liberating that this technology and helpful, so we can’t (9:14) say that it isn’t any of those things.(9:16) But what I think, um, that it could do is really impact our humanity by not (9:24) allowing for these human experiences for gestation and birth to happen. (9:30) Um, and we don’t really know a lot about that uterine environment and that (9:35) intersubjectivity between the fetus and the mother and how much, even on a daily (9:42) or hourly minute by minute basis, um, this might, you know, create the human. (9:50) It may not just be that, um, we have the, the sperm and egg meat and the fetus (9:57) grows, but it might be more that the mother is contributing so much to this (10:02) exchange.(10:04) Um, and of course I get into it in the book, but we want to be wary of, um, (10:11) seeing the processes only this to get this product, um, essentially get, get (10:18) the, um, child, but kind of an end in itself, in a way, um, the experience is (10:25) valuable. (10:26) This is part of what I think makes us human is that we have varied experiences, (10:31) um, and that technology can’t replace those things. (10:37) And we don’t really know, um, you know, with these children of this, um, full (10:44) gestation in these artificial wombs have the same capacity emotionally, um, all (10:51) of those things going in.(10:52) I think that’s where the dark side can come in. (10:55) Um, regarding all of this or just seeing women and their contribution to this as (11:02) just sort of like, um, incubators themselves are just vessels rather than (11:09) actively and, um, very, you know, in, in a very important way, contributing to (11:16) this development. (11:17) So I think that’s, I would say vital considering you’re the makers of (11:20) children.(11:22) Yes. (11:22) It was pretty important to me. (11:23) I mean, you know, yes.(11:26) And I think we don’t necessarily know, um, just exactly how all of that, um, (11:34) creates the human, right. (11:37) The, the psychology, um, in hacking Darwin by Jamie Metzl, he sort of, um, (11:44) gets at that to a degree. (11:46) He doesn’t talk a lot about synthetic wombs, but I actually had an email (11:49) exchange with him.(11:50) I don’t know if you’re familiar with his work, but he says that (11:54) I’ve heard the name. (11:55) So, yeah. (11:56) Um, he just says that we don’t, you know, know that much about this exchange.(12:03) And, um, he’s pretty (12:04) certainly don’t know enough about it, regardless of like, whether we know a (12:08) lot or not, we don’t know enough about it to make kind of bold claims like this. (12:12) I mean, (12:13) right. (12:14) Um, and I think that, you know, there’s also something to be said for the (12:19) mystery, um, or the awe of it all.(12:23) Um, and not just the science and technology and the function of it. (12:29) Um, and so I get into that in, in the book as well, but yes, that’s where (12:34) I think the darkness could lie. (12:37) Yeah.(12:37) So that, that’s an excellent way to look at that. (12:40) I mean, we look at how, for example, uh, abortion’s key in today’s society as (12:47) well, how many percentage of abortions are now taken with a pill? (12:51) That’s literally sent in the mail. (12:54) So we’re finding what I’m seeing is a cultural push, unfortunately, a reduction (13:03) in society, and we’re seeing it from the ease of having these big, these things (13:08) to, in my opinion, this, a machine that makes babies would devalue life because (13:15) it’s no longer, it’s no longer a bio, you know, biological entity that, you (13:21) know, that had that curation with the mother, with the contact, feeling the (13:27) kick and then touching the belly and responding to that kick and all those (13:31) interaction things that you would think have to have to implement or affect that (13:37) child’s not first nine months of growth and, and nurturing you, you would think (13:44) even in the womb.(13:46) So what are, what are some of the specific parts that you thought about in that (13:50) respect that might be lacking or that, that are sufficient? (13:54) Well, I, I just actually was thinking of Brave New World and how, um, in that (14:00) book, he actually, Huxley drops us into, um, the central London hatchery when we (14:07) first get started reading the book. (14:10) And it’s shocking how he just drops you in right there. (14:13) You just dropped in.(14:14) Yes. (14:14) It is shocking. (14:16) Um, and we see right away how, um, this, the world state is trying to (14:23) control and, um, create the society for its own purposes.(14:28) Um, and one of the key things that they are doing for stability and community (14:34) and all of that is, um, is homogenizing people and homogenizing, um, life and (14:42) experience and sort of, um, training them, um, to, to be the same. (14:48) And I think that that’s the danger here as well, is that if we have, um, fetuses (14:55) that have the same environment under the same conditions through technology, then (15:01) we might not get a very diverse, um, you know, population with diverse thinking. (15:07) And I think, um, Huxley really gets at that.(15:11) He, and within his system in the book for ectogenesis, um, they have, um, they, (15:19) they, he calls them arrests of the development. (15:22) So some of them have greater capabilities than others. (15:25) I think the gammas, um, are on the lower side of things and they, (15:30) they can’t be individuals.(15:31) They have to follow. (15:32) And they were deprived of oxygen or something and then some alcohol, some (15:36) kind of right in the process to hack actually stop some of their developmental. (15:41) Yeah.(15:41) And then on the other side, we have the alphas and the alpha plus, and they can (15:46) think, um, you know, abstractly and really question the motives of the world state. (15:53) And so they can be individuals in this way, and they’re a threat to this (15:59) society that, that they’re trying to create. (16:02) Um, interestingly in that book, there’s the character, John, the Savage.(16:06) I don’t know if you’re familiar with him. (16:09) I am. (16:10) Yes.(16:11) Um, please, please share, share for the audience. (16:13) Cause it’s an amazing book. (16:16) Like I said, I actually read it in preparation for the freedom fest.(16:19) Oh, you did. (16:21) Okay. (16:21) So it was one of those things where I was doing the audio book and like you said, (16:24) they drop you right in and they talk about literally starving children (16:28) of oxygen to make them dumb.(16:30) Yeah. (16:31) And the first like 10 minutes and I’m like, what’s going on here? (16:35) It’s pretty shocking. (16:36) Yes.(16:37) Um, but John, the Savage is just a really interesting character because (16:41) he was not born in the world state. (16:44) He was born from his mother, Linda. (16:46) And so he’s the only character.(16:49) Um, she was born there and then was like, and then was excommunicated (16:52) or something, correct? (16:53) Wasn’t she exiled to Mexico? (16:55) Yeah. (16:55) Mm hmm. (16:57) Um, but she had, um, John and he’s the only character that’s of woman born.(17:04) So that’s something to note. (17:05) Right. (17:06) Um, and so he can’t really accept the terms of the world state.(17:11) He’s looking at this as an individual and he, um, he says something about (17:18) there are so many of the citizens have this sameness, um, and it makes (17:25) him, you know, feel squirmish that everybody’s the same and following (17:29) in line and it’s very militant and everything. (17:33) And so he has, um, he has this statement that he says to, um, the (17:39) controller and it’s something along the lines of, you know, that he (17:44) wants all that life has to offer. (17:46) Even if it means suffering or contracting a disease or feeling (17:53) miserable, he wants the ability to be able to have these human experiences.(17:59) He values experience. (18:01) And of course he was really interested in reading Shakespeare and, um, just (18:07) getting the full breadth of what it means to be human in terms of experience. (18:13) And, um, both the good and the bad and how this makes us unique and individual.(18:21) Um, and I think that this system could really de-individuate, um, and create. (18:30) And Huxley drives home the point. (18:32) I don’t want to spoil the alert, but only non, you know, only person (18:37) born of human birth takes his own life.(18:40) That’s right. (18:40) So he does. (18:42) The end is the death of it all.(18:44) Mm-hmm. (18:44) Yeah. (18:45) He can’t cope with that reality.(18:47) Yeah. (18:48) Mm-hmm. (18:49) So it’s a kind of a grim end for John the Savage.(18:53) Yes. (18:54) Yeah. (18:54) And it just, it kind of puts a point onto this is at what point do we allow this? (18:58) Because I can imagine once again, the first intention is we can’t have a child.(19:04) We’re trying to have a child. (19:05) We can’t, you know, we, we just can’t, we want to do this. (19:07) Okay, great.(19:08) But then it’s like the people can afford it and it becomes convenient. (19:12) And, and it gets outside of that part where it becomes that medical miracle (19:19) and becomes a commodity, you know, a commercial service. (19:24) Yes.(19:24) And, you know, I think that that’s sort of the way a lot of medical developments go. (19:30) They may start out in for a small number of people, um, that need assistance or, (19:37) um, you know, it’s, it’s for maybe a real problem and then it has a tendency to grow (19:45) over time, like you’re saying, um, to be used more in mass, right? (19:52) Yeah. (19:52) What I’m thinking about currently in a technology, once again, we’ll (19:55) talk about Heidegger here.(19:56) Yeah. (19:56) Okay. (19:57) Um, it is Neuralink, right? (20:00) I mean, we’ve got Elon Musk Neuralink.(20:01) We have the first person who’s done it. (20:03) I think they’re testing the second and it has changed this person’s life. (20:06) Absolutely changed this person’s life.(20:09) When we start having the people and the haves and the have nots, and it starts (20:13) becoming a differentiator that you can access information 10 times faster than (20:17) your rival, you know, this is when those questions really come in of when does it (20:22) benefit, when does it benefit the whole and when does it really benefit, you (20:27) know, specific groups within the whole. (20:29) Right. (20:30) Yeah.(20:30) I mean, I think that that, so we see this, um, right now with, um, like (20:35) cesarean delivery, let’s say where we have initially in the seventies, it was (20:42) about that 5% of deliveries were born by cesarean and it was really used for. (20:48) Um, you know, cases that were, weren’t going to go well without it. (20:53) And now we’re, we’re up to on average, 33% of delivery.(20:59) So in one generation, we’ve jumped 500% in terms of cesarean delivery. (21:04) And it is an operation. (21:06) It has a charge to it.(21:07) They can bill you. (21:08) They’ve manufactured a consent, right? (21:10) Once again, it becomes an industry thing. (21:12) When does the industry come full circle? (21:15) We talk about late stage capitalism.(21:16) I mean, one of the great examples, we have a, we have the (21:20) most amazing company in Boeing. (21:23) Boeing aircraft. (21:24) We have two people stuck in a space station and we’ve had some serious (21:29) catastrophic quality control issues with that company.(21:33) And it shows that it’s kind of come full circle. (21:35) And it’s when, when those things get monetized and then come back around, (21:40) that’s where that concern comes in, you know? (21:42) Absolutely. (21:43) Yes.(21:43) And so now we have so many people, you know, having, having cesareans and a lot (21:49) of physicians don’t even know their own cesarean rate, so they may not even, (21:54) the hospital may not keep track. (21:56) Some, some hospitals, it depends on where you go. (21:59) You might have a 70% cesarean rate.(22:03) Or, you know, it might be lower than, than the average, but yes, it has a way and (22:09) it’s generally moves in the direction of efficiency and control and of course, (22:15) litigation and insurance and trying to be sure that, you know, you don’t get (22:20) sued and these kinds of things. (22:22) But it’s turning into more of a industrialized industry model for sure. (22:29) And so I think that we could anticipate the same thing for artificial wombs.(22:37) Yeah. (22:37) And that concerns me because once again, we, we tend to weaponize things and the (22:43) first, the first application to me is soldiers. (22:46) Just keep, keep churning them out.(22:49) And I, and I hate to say it, but I use Oppenheimer. (22:52) We talk about, we’ll get to Heidinger here, right? (22:54) We talk about Oppenheimer watches the first atomic bomb goes off and you (22:58) watching his sunken face, smoking a cigarette, shaking, saying I am become (23:04) deaf, right? (23:05) Knows science looks at whether they can do something, not whether they should. (23:12) I think that’s where Heidinger kind of comes in.(23:13) Right. (23:14) So I know that Heidinger played a part of your book. (23:17) I’d love for you to kind of explain a little bit about Heidinger’s principles (23:20) and how that plays a role in your book and how it plays a role just in general (23:24) technology, because I think it’s important across the board.(23:28) Okay. (23:28) Yeah. (23:28) So in my second chapter, I really do a deep dive into Heidinger’s essay, the (23:34) question concerning technology.(23:36) I also bring in information from his memorial address where he talks about (23:41) meditative thinking and calculative thinking. (23:44) But he was the first philosopher to sort of take on the technology issue and what (23:50) does it mean for humanity? (23:52) And kind of laid that groundwork for that kind of thought. (23:58) So in his technology essay, one of the big things coming out of that is his rule (24:07) of end framing.(24:09) And so what he’s basically saying is that in Western culture, in industrialized (24:14) nations, the dominant belief in modern entity is that we understand and know (24:20) truth or really the world through calculations, science, technology, and it (24:30) really focuses on expediting and ordering and making things more efficient, maybe (24:38) even just for efficiency’s sake. (24:40) And so when we apply this to reproduction, we see that this could easily happen with (24:47) artificial wombs. (24:48) And I do get into it in a different part of the book about how we have population (24:55) decline, especially in major world powers like China and the United States to Italy, (25:01) Japan.(25:02) They’re losing populations. (25:05) They’re not at replacement level. (25:06) And so I speculate that if we were to have artificial wombs, that potentially (25:12) governments may come in and want to use them and create the citizens that they aren’t (25:19) able to have otherwise.(25:22) That’s a little bit maybe of a leap and maybe more like Brave New World. (25:26) But I do think there’s some potential there. (25:29) I know it sounds like a jump.(25:30) I know it sounds like a jump, but let’s not kid ourselves. (25:33) We have we have someone like Yuval Nourari calling us useless eaters. (25:38) What do you do with useless eaters? (25:39) You get rid of them.(25:40) Now, the ones that you get rid of are the born ones that actually have a sovereign right (25:46) to birth. You start putting them out of you start putting them in out of out of drums. (25:51) And where’s that sovereign right? (25:53) That doesn’t I would argue that every life has some kind of a sovereign right to it.(25:57) However, that does gray that area and that changes all all the politics and all those (26:03) pieces. And I can’t imagine that that that that part is already in their foresight where (26:09) they’re like, oh, yeah, we’ll just replace with the you know, with useless eaters, but (26:13) we’ll just use them functionally for our needs as many or as few as we want and very (26:18) much control that number in a way. (26:21) Jamie Metzl in Hacking Darwin talks about, you know, kind of a genetic arms race as (26:26) well.So with the use of CRISPR and the gene editing tool, there’s potential, right? (26:33) If if there aren’t maybe clear guidelines set that this could be paired with something (26:38) like CRISPR and you could create, you know, a master race. (26:44) And of course, all the eugenic horrors that that would be. (26:47) Right.But there’s potential, I think, for something like that. (26:50) We have the power to sort of control our evolution or we will very soon. (26:59) And actually, I have I came across during my research, you know, Elon Musk had a tweet (27:09) about we should be more concerned about population decline.(27:13) And then someone responded by saying, yes, we need to be thinking about ways to (27:18) basically expedite reproduction and focus on artificial wombs. (27:23) So it’s in the conversation for sure, this idea. (27:26) But if we were to pair it with CRISPR, there’s potential there for creating this, you (27:35) know.Are you familiar with the CRISPR twins in China that that they allegedly took out a (27:41) gene that would that was tied to HIV? (27:45) I did. Yes. (27:46) And then it allegedly increased IQ and memory retention or something.(27:51) You know, what a shock. (27:52) The side effect was that part, you know. (27:55) Right.Yeah, I mean, it could create this have and the have nots. (27:59) And here we go back again to Brave New World. (28:02) And if let’s just say, you know, this did happen, maybe not even in the United States.(28:09) But then you would feel that you need to do the same in order to create or have be able to (28:16) compete on the world stage. (28:18) And so then there would be this almost requirement of using these technologies in a (28:25) certain way, at least potentially. (28:28) So if I may, how did you how did you get into the part into the side that you that you’re (28:36) taking? How did how did you come to those conclusions? (28:38) Some of the things like I, I’ve changed my ideologies over the years.(28:43) I was a great a neocon. (28:44) I came out of a rock thinking, you know, we did all the right things and find out it (28:48) was all fabricated. (28:50) We manufactured consent, all these things that I’m starting to uncover.(28:53) And the deprogramming is still taking a long time. (28:57) But but I’m curious how you came to the conclusion on the side you did versus the a (29:02) different conclusion, because I think if we’re able to show our work, how we got to an (29:08) answer, because when someone gives me an ideology, I just ask questions. (29:11) I don’t I don’t tell them they’re wrong or anything.(29:13) I ask them how they, you know, to find out how they got there. (29:15) And after a few questions, you can find out if it’s ideologically driven, it’s generally (29:19) falls apart after about three or four questions deep. (29:23) But if it’s if it’s nuanced thought, usually you can follow the path of the of the (29:27) thought.So I’d love to hear how you navigated that in your in your process. (29:32) Well, through through the research and through the reading, you know, it was very (29:38) helpful, but actually it was also personal experience and initially wanting to go into (29:43) the program for looking at pregnancy and childbirth, because I have children and that (29:49) those process, that process for me was very profound and life changing. (29:55) And I would say, though, that it wasn’t only the arrival of the child and becoming a (30:00) parent.It was actually the process, the giving birth and going through the process (30:08) that really the the baby showers and the shopping and the planning and the excitement. (30:15) I mean, there is so much that goes into that. (30:18) And you’ve got nine months of pure anticipation.(30:21) I don’t have children. (30:23) So I can only imagine that excitement and that and that intense feeling that you have (30:27) from that. Yeah.(30:28) And actually, even the birth process, it just changed me. (30:34) It gave me a new perspective on life and what I was able what I felt I was able to do. (30:42) It was in my last chapter.(30:44) I talk about all, but it really was a life changing experience. (30:49) And I think that was a big part as to why I would come in on this. (30:55) And I really value that experience and the ability to have it.(31:01) And I think that. (31:04) I’d like to celebrate that rather than outsource it, as I think there is a lot of value (31:11) and I think that, you know, it’s interesting, right, we talk about toxic masculinity and how (31:16) the male all of a sudden the males interfering in the child’s development versus part of (31:22) the nurturing process, it seems very odd to me. (31:26) And now you’re devaluing the female side of it.(31:29) It’s like, where where’s the value of and it seems this weird orchestrated thing where (31:34) they’re devaluing the parent and replacing it with some kind of government or just some (31:41) kind of other structure that is outside the parent, almost an ectoparental, you know, (31:46) they’re almost going and ectoparental in a way. (31:49) Right there. Don’t listen to your parents.(31:51) Listen to us. We’ll be your parent. (31:52) Right.Whereas these these people that we elect, these people that get administered, they (31:56) should be our children. They should be doing what we tell them to do. (31:59) They are the ones now the ones making the rules for us.(32:02) And we’re as culturally, it seems we’re we’ve softened to the point where we’re allowing (32:07) that. And there seems to be a reckoning about to happen where the pushback is going to be (32:13) pretty strong here in a little bit because this sovereign individuality is starting to (32:18) really take take footing. (32:22) Yes.And so, yeah, Heidegger’s thought did influence me for sure. (32:30) And so he was talking about that dominant belief, the inframing, the dominant belief in (32:35) the Western culture and how we understand things through science and calculations and (32:41) and all that. And I can see how that thought and that elevating that can create what (32:47) you’re talking about, maybe outsourcing all of this or maybe parents aren’t as important (32:52) or a woman’s contribution or that intersubjectivity isn’t as valuable.(32:59) And that’s unfortunate, right, because that’s that’s kind of the things we need to (33:03) consider going into these things. (33:05) Now, I will say all of the scientific things that have come out of it are amazing (33:10) because out of nuclear weapon does come nuclear power. (33:13) So, yes, you know, there are transitions to certain things.(33:17) But as a whole, it does make sense that Heidegger with the way technology in the last (33:22) hundred years and how it’s exponential. (33:24) We talk about the singularity, right? (33:27) And things like that were rapidly approaching. (33:30) So thank you so much for joining me.(33:32) Did you have any other thoughts, anything else you want to share or talk about? (33:35) Because I I’m here to talk about whatever whatever topics that come up. (33:39) So I don’t know. (33:41) I think that I would I guess I just like to reinforce the idea that there’s value in (33:46) the experience, maybe even apart from the arrival of the child, and that when we value (33:52) that, I think we elevate humanity, you know, as a whole.(33:57) And when we help women achieve their desires and goals throughout that process, (34:03) rather than maybe trying to create a uniform, homogenous experience, then I think we (34:09) also elevate humanity and and celebrate the individuality, which I think is a discussion (34:17) of also how we might be unique in this technological world, right? (34:27) Is what’s our value? (34:29) How are we unique? (34:30) I think it’s when we are virtuous, when we’re, you know, brave and courageous and we (34:39) take chances and fall in love like, you know, John the Savage, you know, we want to take on (34:46) everything. That’s when I think we what we contribute and have value and what we get away (34:52) from if we start moving in this direction of of total technology. (34:58) And I think those are pressures that actually help us evolve when, you know, technology (35:04) removes a lot of evolutionary pressures that change, right? (35:08) Because we can easily become stagnant to a point where when something that’s outside of (35:15) our understanding happens that our technology can’t compensate for, we’re going to have a (35:20) real large gap between those two spots and we’re going to have to learn very quickly or (35:24) else we we don’t make it.(35:26) Right? Right. (35:28) Yeah, it’s very interesting. (35:30) And what’s interesting, you were saying, too, is I would think that having a child, the (35:34) experience of having a child would also build community because you have a woman who’s (35:40) pregnant comes in.All of a sudden, everyone gathers. (35:44) Right. It’s just a natural thing where all of a sudden it brings people together.(35:49) That experience is completely removed from every picnic, every reunion, every holiday, (35:54) every every experience that that’s removed. (35:58) That child doesn’t receive that other energy that’s sent from the outer, some kind of outer (36:03) love. And you can’t you can’t think that you don’t feel that you can feel when someone’s (36:08) loving you or not.(36:09) You can feel it. And imagine eight people gathered around and just sharing that and that (36:15) just being devoid of that at all times. (36:17) I I can’t imagine the implications.(36:19) It’s almost it’s almost like if there’s a soul, if there’s a way to scientifically explain a (36:24) soul, it would be the interaction between the biological mother and and the child through (36:31) that process, through that initial process. (36:34) I’m sure there’s some other piece to it, but I’m just saying if there is a scientific way (36:38) to explain it, that would be a way I would look at it. (36:41) Oh, I love I love that idea.(36:43) I think that’s a beautiful way to to say that one of the first people to talk about (36:50) our artificial wombs or creating creating something outside of a woman was Paracelsus in (36:59) the 16th century. (37:00) And he had a recipe for homunculus, which maybe people have heard about. (37:04) But basically that homunculus was a man without a soul.(37:09) That’s how he was described. (37:12) And so by doing this, by taking this out of a human being. (37:20) This, you know, offspring had no soul, and so I love I love how you describe that, I think (37:27) that’s a beautiful way to see it.(37:29) Well, thank you, I’m I’m grateful for it and thank you so much for joining. (37:35) I was I wasn’t able to read the entire book. (37:37) I was able to really dig into the second chapter, obviously, because I I work a lot with (37:41) technology people and those implications.(37:43) And and obviously I’m working on this part where I’m seeing this larger group utilizing (37:50) this technology and just a few steps ahead of the general public. (37:54) And I’m trying to catch us up to where they’re at so that we can combat, but more just (38:00) kind of work within that structure better, I guess. (38:05) Yeah.So so if you have any final thoughts, any final words, please share all of your (38:09) information, how we can get ahold of you and how we can get your book. (38:12) OK, well, my book is on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and my publisher, Whip and Stock. (38:20) And I have a website, LauraJohnsonDahlke.com. (38:24) That’s probably the best way to reach me.(38:29) So. Perfect. (38:30) Excellent.I’ll put all your information on there. (38:32) OK, great. Thank you again.(38:34) Thanks again. Let me. (38:36) Absolutely.Let me make sure I get this book correct, because it’s very important. (38:39) It’s called Outer Origin, a discourse on ectogenesis and the value of human experience. (38:46) Yeah, that’s it.(38:48) Thank you so much, Laura. (38:49) Welcome to the Knocked Conscious family. (38:51) You have an open invitation if there’s anything else you want to share.(38:54) If something came up, you have a topic or something you want to talk about. (38:57) I like going wide and deep. (38:59) But anytime you have that, please feel free to join us anytime.(39:03) Thank you so much. I appreciate it. (39:06) Thank you again.Have a great day. (39:31) You too. Bye bye.