Mark Welcomes Bobby Azarian, author of ‘The Romance of Reality’. We discuss Howard Bloom, conspiracies, consciousness, religion, philosophy, theism, base reality, simulation theory & turtles, turtles, turtles, all the way down. This week has been the most amazing of my entire life, intellectually. Thanks to those I met & those with whom I plan to have future conversations.
Road to Omega Substack: https://roadtoomega.substack.com/
X: @BobbyAzarian
Outro: ”Goodnight, Sweetheart, Goodnight” – This score is in public domain and may be freely downloaded, printed, and performed. The sound file may be downloaded for personal use. For more information see https://lincolnlibraries.org/polley-music-library/
Transcript:
(0:00) Hey everybody, and welcome to another episode of Knocked conscious today. I had the absolute pleasure of speaking with Bobby Azarian (0:07) He’s the author of the romance of reality. It was an amazing conversation (0:13) We spoke about myriad topics amazing discussion (0:17) We went a little woo, but we went a little woo.So I hope you enjoy it. Here it is (0:24) Oh my gosh, it was so much fun. My head’s still buzzing.Enjoy it. Bye (0:28) Well, no, well very nice to meet you thank you so much for gifting your time man, yeah my play a lot of talk (0:36) Yeah, I mean it’s all okay (0:41) The world’s crazy (0:42) Yeah, I’d love to start a little bit back to your Rogan episode if I may sure because you mentioned a person (0:52) Whom I came across (0:54) Totally differently and I think this is where synchronicity and everything that we’re gonna talk about kind of blends in right the reason we’re all connected (1:02) you mentioned Howard Bloom and (1:05) I (1:06) Met Howard through I’ve not met him personally yet (1:09) But I’ve had about five or six podcasts now with Howard from Palestine to science to Michael Jackson (1:15) All the running the entire gamut and I love that. Yeah, I was enjoying this (1:22) Right before our conversation (1:24) Checking those out.Yeah (1:26) Yeah, so tell me a little bit about your your connection with him (1:29) If I may and and then we’ll certainly get into everything that you have to offer. Yeah, Howard’s awesome, isn’t he? (1:37) He really is (1:38) So I have a friend named Justin and we’ve been friends for a couple decades (1:46) Kind of science and philosophy buddies and we have a little group (1:51) We met on a message board back like in probably (1:55) 2003 on myspace way before (1:59) Facebook and myspace had these cool groups like these kind of (2:02) group discussions, which was kind of like a reddit I guess of that age and (2:09) Somewhere called like the edge of knowledge. I think that’s the one we met met on and (2:15) Yeah, so while I was writing the book he was like this reminds me some of the stuff you’re saying reminds me of this book (2:21) The Lucifer principle by Howard Bloom and it’s this kind of big history (2:27) Cosmic evolution book and I hadn’t heard of him (2:31) and then I checked the book out and the book was really popular and I was reading a lot of it and (2:37) I was like wow this I got to meet this guy because um, we seem to be on the same (2:44) Path towards (2:46) Cosmic truth, I guess you could call it (2:49) and (2:49) So I reached out to him when the book was done (2:52) asking him for a blurb and he was nice enough to to read it and (2:58) And to give a blurb for the book and I just started learning more about him (3:02) I started coming to his he has the Howard Bloom Institute and they have these meetings these weekly meetings (3:07) They go to those that’s gonna be a part of that.Yeah. Yeah, it’s a fun group and there’s great discussions one time we filmed (3:16) little question answer thing and I love Howard because he’s this cosmic philosopher for anyone out there who hasn’t (3:23) Read his books once called the Lucifer principle once called the God problem. He has one coming out called the sexual cosmos (3:30) I think it’s the name (3:32) And it is really really excited.Yeah. Yeah, so (3:36) I’ve looked at it and (3:38) it’s very similar to the book I’m working on right now and (3:43) He’s also interesting because he was the publicist for Michael Jackson (3:49) Prince like Bob Marley David Bowie (3:53) Do you see the guys in the background Billy Joel Bob Marley? (3:57) Right, yeah, it’s great everybody Michael Jackson and me (4:01) Einstein Michael Jackson to me was (4:03) And that’s how I actually came across was I actually interviewed Michael Jackson’s nephew Taj Jackson (4:08) Oh, that’s cool out about the shenanigans around Michael and I watched leaving Neverland on HBO (4:15) And I was very compelled to believe that and then I saw a counter (4:21) Documentary that basically debunks all of it and it’s very interesting interesting. So it’s hard to get to the truth (4:27) And what’s interesting is watching the overlay of like a Rupert Murdoch who’s in power (4:33) Yeah laying over that story.For example in 1995 AJ Benza had testified (4:38) That Howard there was going to be a Harvey Weinstein story (4:43) Allegation in 1995 20 years prior. That’s interesting to the actual him getting caught, right? (4:50) So AJ Benza was paid by by Harvey Weinstein to put a Michael Jackson article in instead (4:56) And he testified to that (4:58) Oh, so it was just kind of a random filler article like just to get that story out (5:03) It was a lie, right and it was to cover up Weinstein for 20 more years and it’s on (5:09) I mean, it’s just weird how it all comes together. But once again, I think this speaks to the synchronicity of you and I connecting (5:16) yeah, I’ve been really interested in like (5:21) Analyzing different conspiracy theories and (5:23) Because if you take like if you think about epistemology (5:28) which is like the study of knowledge and you start thinking about like the world in terms of we have a (5:34) Statistical model of the world encoded in our mind and we’re trying to get at certainty, but there’s always uncertainty (5:39) There’s definitely gonna be things that we don’t know about.So the question is how much do we not know? (5:46) Like how transparent is the world? Are we seeing it as it is? (5:49) Are these there, you know, we so we know that there are definitely things that we don’t know about (5:55) but the question is how much and (5:58) I’ve been interested in stories about (6:02) Conspiracy theories about Michael Jackson’s death being (6:07) intentional and a way to silence him because he was being very critical as was Prince about (6:15) The way the music industry is run and the way artists basically aren’t (6:20) Treated right and they’re not giving their fair share and that when someone dies all that royalty money (6:26) goes to the the labels and (6:30) so with the the wake of the in the wake of the the Puff Daddy scandal (6:35) We actually do you know that connection with Puff Daddy? (6:38) well, I mean I was gonna I was gonna say all those people up top like (6:45) Jimmy Iovine and (6:48) Jay-z’s mentor Lior Cohen, I think is his name and (6:54) Like there’s a few people at the top and they’ve been aware of lots of (6:59) Nefarious stuff going on in the music industry and you can’t help but wonder (7:05) How like what’s been orchestrated like Tupac and Biggie? I mean their deaths like it’s you know (7:13) They’re saying that Puff might get charged for for the Tupac murder, right? Yeah (7:19) And so maybe the name has been (7:22) killing people in (7:24) collecting royalty money (7:27) Yeah, so I love I (7:30) Think you and I I mean that might be a start of something great because I actually delve into conspiracy theories as well from (7:35) the from both the debunking side and just the intrigue of what what what’s the (7:39) Psychology that makes someone believe something or trust something (7:42) I think they’re so interesting and I’ve I’ve written articles from the you know, the perspective of neuroscientists (7:50) who does cognitive psychology research like (7:53) Websites have been interested in like oh, you know right about (7:56) You know what’s going on right now cover what’s in the news? (8:00) so (8:01) conspiracy theory (8:02) kind of that topic like with (8:06) When Trump was in office and there was the Q stuff going on (8:09) I had to look into that to write the article (8:13) But when you go down that rabbit hole and it’s interesting when you’re a rational principled (8:18) and I’d say Bayesian thinker and that word just means you look at all options and you actually (8:26) map out like the evidence for all of the theories and then you try to (8:32) Come to some conclusion (8:33) based on what you know, but you actually go through the process of giving every theory the benefit of the doubt during the (8:42) Evidence collection part you can call it epistemic foraging like you’re searching for for bits of knowledge. And when you do that (8:51) It may not turn out that the conspiracy theory is true (8:54) But you find out a lot of stuff in the process about other things maybe about that and you realize (9:00) Our society has this massive blind spot because basically (9:06) The word conspiracy theory has rather than being a theory about a potential (9:13) Conspiracy that’s a crime which we know happens (9:17) It’s become a word meaning a theory that’s fake (9:22) When there’s no way that was actually done by the deep state. They actually planted that as a fake thing (9:27) They made they made it like the woo word like woke they made it like made it made it toxic (9:32) Anybody anybody in power who doesn’t want to be questioned? (9:37) about what they’re doing in secrecy is (9:40) going to benefit (9:42) from (9:42) having the word conspiracy theory have this blanket definition where it just means (9:49) ridiculous things and (9:51) It’s it’s really stupid for anyone to believe that you know (9:56) Let’s say poor people go to prison all the time for organized crime.We know crimes like a big part of reality (10:03) To think the government is by the way, it’s basically organized crime (10:06) Well, I was gonna say to think that elites are people in you know, higher status people (10:13) wealthy America doesn’t (10:16) Participate in organized crime that they’re all angels (10:20) Law-abiding citizens and only the unwealthy people in the world are the bad people. That’s pretty messed up bias thinking so (10:28) there’s a lot we don’t know about but we have to be really careful at the same time because if we’re wrong it can (10:35) Have really bad consequences for people’s lives (10:39) But we should that’s where the Bayesian comes in, right? (10:42) Exactly to eliminate we have to eliminate those probabilistic outcomes (10:47) Yeah, and I’m too and and it’s interesting to that extent. It’s kind of like the world’s an equation.Everything’s an equation, right and the more (10:55) Fine-tuned we can get the beginning of that equation the more fine-tuned the answer becomes (11:01) so the more (11:02) accurate data getting in we can get to from point one to point zero one to point zero zero one and (11:07) Just fine-tune it more and more to get a more accurate (11:09) Yeah, exactly so the way I like to think about it is that we have this (11:16) Our mind is a mental model (11:19) it’s a mental map of the world and there’s all this uncertainty in the model because there are all these things we don’t know and (11:26) the process of living and learning is filling in (11:32) the details of that model filling in the gaps and (11:35) Reducing your uncertainty and the more you can reduce your uncertainty or ignorance about the world (11:41) The better you can navigate it and the more causal power you have the more power you have to influence the world (11:49) But just the more knowledge you have in general (11:52) Usually the more successful you’re going to be in life (11:55) So we always want to be doing I dropped that kind of big word, but I think it’s a good one epistemic foraging (12:01) It’s basically just like I love it knowledge all the time (12:04) We need to do this and (12:07) In today’s age like we we have to do this with everything. You have to be curious (12:12) When a president when an assassination attempt happens on a president no matter who it is, no matter which side they’re on (12:20) Yeah, I just like you have to know I was I was in Las Vegas at Freedom Fest when Robert F (12:27) Kennedy just spoke the night before (12:29) And I actually talk with you about I want to talk to you about the attempt because we have some woo things to talk (12:35) down the road (12:38) Like it’s crazy because (12:40) You you wouldn’t you’ve just recently spoken with me (12:43) You can tell him I can tell I mean you can tell that I am a lucid thinking thoughtful individual (12:48) But I’ve had experiences that I’m trying to understand. So I hope we can talk about I love that (12:53) That’s a point and then I’d love to and then I’d love to get in just a little synopsis of romance of reality (12:58) And then maybe touch, you know on the world view part and your and your new book and stuff like that (13:03) But please finish your point, but I just wanted to interject there.We were all at Freedom Fest (13:07) I’m talking about we had very we had Steve Forbes there. We had Brett Weinstein and Michael Schellenberger (13:12) I spoke with for 15 minutes and this news comes across about the assassination attempt and (13:17) Everybody’s buzzing about it. I mean we’re talking about political thinkers here and we’re all talking about a date, you know the last two days (13:23) So it’s been amazing (13:24) Back (13:27) The way (13:28) first all of us libertarians think football flag like that, so (13:32) And that’s a bias too (13:34) But I mean you have to consider it is but we don’t know and in the fact that I didn’t I didn’t you didn’t roll it (13:39) Out make that accusation.I asked the question, right? I didn’t make you (13:45) Question and when people tell you you can’t something’s fishy there (13:53) Absolutely, so it’s not the way you figure it out isn’t so much it’s it’s not just looking at the evidence (13:59) It’s also when you make a claim like that looking at the response and making predictions saying, okay (14:04) Let’s say I say this. How are they going to respond? What would be the typical response if? (14:11) This is true. What would be the typical spot response if it’s not true? (14:16) What would be the typical response (14:18) If they don’t want us to know whether it’s true or not true and (14:23) Yeah, there’s no transparency right now, it’s just a really bad state of affairs and (14:29) Speaking of RFK.It’s messed up that he doesn’t have Secret Service. That is really strange and (14:35) It is but let’s let’s see how great they did. Look out.Look how great a bang-up job they did (14:39) You know, I met the actual personal detail for RFK over at Freedom Fest (14:43) I trust those men and way more with my life than I do any stranger from some political ideology or some deep state (14:49) That’s protecting me. I (14:51) Bet there. Yeah, I bet they’re great.But um, they were awesome. He has to pay for that out-of-pocket too, right? (14:58) Right. Yeah, I mean, I’m not saying that I mean he should have it funded for (15:02) He’s got the best guys.Yeah, right the Secret Service isn’t exact (15:05) I’m not going to any of the any organization from the government anymore to looking for answers. You know what I mean? (15:11) I’m trying to become a lot more self-reliant (15:13) yeah, and in the whole investigation being done about the assassination attempt should be like an (15:19) Open thing it should be a cross department thing and it should be like a publicly transparent thing (15:26) But it’s not and until it’s not people are gonna have conspiracy theories and they can’t be blamed (15:33) Because people aren’t being transparent want to get rid of conspiracy theories make everything transparent (15:39) Right, I mean Biden’s it says let the FBI do their job. Are you kidding me? (15:45) Terrorist two years ago.Yeah, I called parents terrorists two years ago and he wants us to trust them with the information they get (15:52) yeah, I mean I (15:55) Gotta I gotta admit. I don’t know how much we can trust (16:00) You know our government and our agencies I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for most things but um, (16:07) I should you should I don’t know if we should that may be too generous. I don’t know.I don’t I mean, yeah (16:13) I mean, that’s for the other side of it. I’m a kind I’m a kind disagreeable person (16:18) You know what? I mean? Like yeah, I’m on the side definitely leaning more on the side of (16:23) 90% of it is balderdash (16:26) Yeah, but I still want to be compassionate because I do want to allow them to become transparent, right? (16:33) So I don’t know every at every angle (16:37) Yeah (16:40) but so (16:43) We have to to recognize the fact that (16:48) They’re mortal enemies now and a lot of people are gonna lose their jobs if Trump becomes president that are in those organizations and (16:58) Trump’s probably gonna be out for revenge at some point even if that’s why he named the vice president right away (17:04) That’s why he named it. But JD Vance is the vice president (17:07) Yeah, I that’s something.Yeah, I saw that and I’ve been here (17:11) Yeah, I don’t know much about him. So (17:15) Yeah, I need to learn more like (17:19) This strategy. Yeah, you can fill me in but um a (17:24) Lot of people (17:26) their livelihoods at stake and so there is a natural motivation to (17:34) Do whatever they can to keep Trump out of office (17:36) And that’s the same thing with keeping Biden in office because the people that are keeping Biden in office (17:41) That’s it.That’s his meal. That’s their meal ticket (17:43) Yeah, and and what if he goes out then they get replaced because that’s how you do it (17:48) Administrations get replaced so they don’t want to lose their jobs either and once people are in a self (17:53) Preservation mode then you can’t trust them because they’re doing what they have capable of doing almost what’s biology biological, too (18:01) I mean, they’re gonna do what’s is if everything’s on the line (18:06) It’s their life. Like yeah, we don’t know so I don’t want to speculate too much.But um (18:12) No, I mean the point is we have to speculate like I don’t want to write. That’s the thing (18:17) You gotta you gotta ask all questions. Yeah you and they need to be trained.I don’t want to speculate conspiracy (18:22) I want to speculate everything. You know what I mean to be yeah (18:28) Yeah, exactly so (18:31) that that should always be allowed because when people say don’t ask questions I (18:37) Yeah, that’s that’s when you have to ask questions. That’s when you have to ask questions.Yeah (18:42) So, thank you for sharing that (18:44) I think we might have a future about (18:45) Conspiracies because I actually do delve in some in my podcast and I’d love to talk about those. I would love in the future (18:50) Yeah (18:52) One project I’ve had in mind is kind of taking a Bayesian approach to the different conspiracy theories (18:57) Let’s say you take the top 10 or top 20. It’s kind of like a Mythbusters type show where you’re we’re but I would love that (19:03) But in the process of trying to bust them you’re gonna find out that okay when you look at the evidence (19:11) Yeah, actually the true stupid people are the ones believing the narrative one (19:16) I saw that got me interested recently was the the death of Soundgarden’s Chris Cornell (19:21) You know a lot of people die and I don’t question it Matthew Perry for example from front (19:27) Like I kind of saw that coming (19:28) But if you if you look into the details of Chris Cornell’s death, it is super sketchy nothing makes sense (19:36) So there’s a lot I would love to talk about that one because I’m a huge (19:40) Fan and I just missed him in Phoenix and I didn’t go see him (19:43) And I heard the night this is interesting because I do I actually did a podcast about suicide (19:48) I lost a good friend to suicide at 27 and some and actually that has a woo component to once again (19:55) Probably, you know either a conversation for another day or later down the road, but (20:00) Chris Cornell and the guy from Lincoln Park (20:02) They were very troubled but I heard that Chris Cornell was super happy the day that he did it and I’ve heard (20:08) Stories of people who commit suicide when they’ve made that decision that it’s they feel free (20:14) And I found that to be one of the interesting counters to possibly what you were saying, but I would love to talk about it.Yeah (20:22) Yeah, who knows? (20:24) So, yeah, and you will probably never get full certainty on that (20:28) But um, some of the details are really interesting when you look into (20:32) For example with suicides, there’s not usually like blood splattered around the room and stuff (20:36) There there were strange injuries like on the back of his head lots of stuff. Well, let’s go (20:42) Let’s go into the Clintons. For example, come on, how many you know (20:45) Foster (20:46) I’m (20:48) Just twice I’m almost there to talk about that stuff.I know (20:55) Emailing me for the next podcast and you won’t get a response and you’ll know why but um, yeah (21:02) Hours and rainbows and sprinkles if you want, I will I will say the journalists that reported on (21:09) the meeting between (21:10) The Clintons and the Attorney General that happened right before the election that everybody found out about and probably cost him (21:17) Yeah that guy (21:21) Committed suicide (21:23) We can talk about he wrote a book a marriage super happy. He had no one (21:27) He left Phoenix to go back to Alabama I know him because he did traffic in my town in Phoenix really (21:34) I know yeah, cuz it was on in Sky Harbor where he broke that news (21:39) Yeah, he’s a University of Alabama alumnus, yeah, yeah, I just look Chris Chris Simon Chris shield Chris something (21:46) Yeah, I just learned about that (21:49) Recently, but then we need to talk because I actually have the whole lowdown on that. No, no joke (21:55) yeah, that’d be interesting so (21:58) There’s some yeah in this (22:01) hypothetical project of (22:03) Bayesian (22:05) conspiracy theory busting (22:07) Busters, um (22:09) There’s some I probably won’t touch because I don’t want to die (22:13) Yeah, I I know a few as well (22:17) But I think I’m ready to do it.Let’s go. Let’s just you know, better to burn out than fade away, right? (22:27) Bobby Azarian did not say anything your secrets are safe with me (22:35) We got we got to go back to romance and reality because this is really where it launched (22:38) So tell me a little bit about a synopsis that for me and I do have an analogy (22:44) I hope it’s an accurate analogy and we can go from there (22:48) Okay. Do you want to give the analogy you don’t me to give so so you spoke of the emergent properties? (22:54) So the way the best analogy I use is (22:57) Temperature is only the result of molecules banging together faster and faster more and more (23:02) It’s it emerges out of that process, it’s not a thing (23:06) It’s the reverse causal, right? So it’s a bottom line not a top-down (23:12) Yeah, kind of like in touting.It’s an emergent collective property of a system (23:17) It’s yeah, right and we we see (23:21) Emergence being more bottom up in that way (23:23) Not top-down yet our whole lives (23:26) We live top-down from the hierarchy from the father from God from all these different hierarchies (23:33) we always seem to (23:35) Perceive top-down and I love that you perceive bottom-up because with my experiences (23:40) I’m starting to find and align with your ideas on that. I’d love for you to share a little bit about all that (23:47) Yes, so (23:48) The romance of reality is a book that tries to explain a lot of the biggest (23:56) Scientific mysteries that are most interesting to us as humans. So like the origin of life (24:03) What’s consciousness house consciousness created and what’s the ultimate fate fate of life? What’s the ultimate fate of the universe? (24:11) And it argues that we have the picture (24:16) completely wrong right now we have a (24:19) scientific framework (24:21) That’s that’s known as the the reductionist (24:25) framework that (24:27) Implicit in this view is the idea that the universe is just this kind of accidental (24:33) machine like system (24:35) and what I’m saying is (24:38) It’s a system that’s evolving and that evolutionary process (24:43) Isn’t something completely random.It’s a learning process. It’s a process of knowledge creation and (24:49) The evolutionary process is not just (24:52) The biological process will we’re familiar with but it’s a cosmic evolutionary process where nature’s simplest components are (25:01) assembling themselves (25:03) into increasingly complex (25:05) structures and configurations and that leads to life and (25:10) The system that we call life on this planet is actually this integrated network of all these (25:18) Organisms that are these (25:20) agents that (25:22) Form these larger collectives and larger intelligent networks. So basically the biosphere is like a distributed (25:29) intelligence on the planet Earth and (25:32) Use an analogy there.We have the mushroom mycelia right with the roots in the ground (25:37) For example with trees between yes their information and share (25:41) resources and things like that (25:43) Yeah, so life is just interconnected in all these different ways and you see it with (25:48) plant life and (25:50) Trees are an interesting example because there’s all this (25:54) intelligence in like the root system and (25:58) There’s it’s almost a physical (26:01) Personification of or a characterization of the energy that we’re talking about in the consciousness realm (26:07) Yeah, it’s it’s similar because there’s information processing going on it’s like a mind a (26:15) distributed mind (26:17) emerges from those those networks and (26:21) this the (26:24) Human civilization (26:26) connected by all of our communication technology (26:28) You could see that as forming the global brain of the the super organism. That’s the biosphere because we’re analogous (26:36) to neurons where (26:39) The most complex species and we do all this information processing. So we’ve formed something like the global brain (26:45) So you have this planetary intelligence? (26:47) That’s this these interconnected ecosystems (26:52) and they all work together to keep the (26:54) the the temperature and (26:57) the gas composition of the atmosphere in a range that’s friendly for (27:03) complex life and for the continued persistence and (27:07) Continual development of life really the continual progress of life as a whole towards higher complexity (27:14) Not every species is getting more complex (27:16) The system as a whole is getting more complex and the most complex species is getting more (27:21) Complex and what I argue in the book is that the network of life (27:27) It’s all these what are called complex adaptive systems.So it’s these systems that are (27:34) Continually learning (27:36) from their environment and (27:39) Exchanging information and this whole system is becoming increasingly (27:44) resilient (27:46) So it’s better able to deal with (27:50) catastrophe and that (27:53) Life is basically it learns (27:57) it’s (27:59) Basically nature is presenting life with all of these existential challenges and it’s encoding the solutions (28:06) To the problems of survival and through this process (28:10) It’s gaining knowledge and it’s becoming increasingly resilient. And so what the book argues is that you can’t stop this process (28:20) It’s constantly (28:23) Life is constantly adapting and evolving (28:26) To where it just gains more causal power over nature. It’s better able to (28:31) Manipulate nature it becomes harder to kill if an asteroids coming toward the planet (28:37) With our technology now and it threatens all of intelligent life (28:42) We can destroy that with our technology (28:46) If we had to and so basically it’s this self-correcting (28:52) system that (28:54) slowly, but at an increasing rate (28:57) Starts to expand through the universe and then it’s an interconnected (29:02) system of intelligent agents because they’re in contact through communication technology (29:07) And so the evolutionary process is building a distributed intelligence that will someday (29:14) Be at this at the cosmic scale.And so this represents a process of the universe organizing itself (29:20) so the universe is a self organizing system in this view and it’s becoming more self-aware through the emergence of (29:27) Conscious organisms and in those conscious organisms form this ever-expanding network. That is this intelligence? (29:35) that’s basically taking in all of the (29:39) Inanimate matter in the world and it’s integrating it into its computational network (29:43) So the universe is in this process of being transformed into one cosmic (29:50) entity one cosmic intelligence and (29:52) And (29:54) The French philosopher and paleontologist and evolutionary theorist from he wrote a book in like 1940 called the phenomenon of man (30:02) He had this theory of evolution being progressive and going towards what he called the Omega point (30:08) So yeah, it’s just the idea that the universe is a self organizing system (30:13) Which doesn’t sound that radical and a lot of scientists would say I think it’s fair to characterize it that way or it could be (30:22) But when you push it to its (30:23) Logical conclusions, then everything is on this trajectory towards an Omega point and the evolutionary process is essentially building God (30:31) It’s building this cosmic intelligence that we’re all gonna be part of all the conscious agents that are still alive when this is constructed (30:38) Yeah, that is amazing. So so on that I (30:43) Tend to think that we are adapted to the environment more the environment adapted to us, but (30:49) Only initially right and then as the consciousness between things grows (30:54) Then it becomes more symbiotic back and forth because it kind of gets feedback from us, right? (30:59) But it doesn’t initially know it just creates an environment kind of like physics like the gravity all the laws of our nature natural world (31:07) So it’s interesting because we look at fractals and pattern and it looks like all these patterns are (31:13) Starting to emerge at the micro level and at the macro level almost exactly like these fractals (31:19) And they kind of fit whatever the laws of this universe tend to be (31:24) Are you any? (31:25) Yes, so the the whole process of self-organization that I described it’s like a growing fractal pattern (31:33) Because basically it has these systems that are these nested systems.So people have called it like a (31:41) Matryoshka cosmology those Russian t-dolls that stack inside each other (31:45) So you could think that think of the cosmic evolutionary process as nature’s simplest components like fundamental (31:53) Elementary particles subatomic particles coming together to make atoms which come together to make molecules which come together to make organisms which come together to make (32:01) Ecosystems and societies which come together and make this planetary (32:05) Superorganism in that biosphere extended extends itself into the cosmos through intelligence to intelligent life (32:12) Expanding and it’s just one growing network, but you’re right (32:15) It’s this process where you have the universe is basically this dynamical system (32:20) And there’s this tendency towards order and a tendency towards disorder associated with the second law of thermodynamics (32:26) And there’s a constant interplay between those two tendencies and that’s what creates complexity (32:33) So it’s kind of an Eastern philosophy like yin-yang type of relationship and the Western philosopher Hegel talked about this dialectical dynamic (32:41) It’s how cultural evolution happens to you get an idea or a worldview and then the opposite worldview emerges (32:48) That’s why there’s always political polarization (32:50) But then there’s eventually a synthesis of those worldviews into something that is greater (32:58) And basically takes the best elements from both sides. But yeah, there’s this fundamental interplay between (33:04) life and its environment and basically living organisms have to (33:12) Uh (33:13) Continue this struggle for existence. They they have to fight (33:18) To stay alive in a world that tends towards disorder, but the tending toward disorder is only half the story (33:25) Life lives up to that challenge (33:27) It’s always encoding the solutions that it finds to that survival problem.And that’s what propels progress and so (33:38) The (33:38) living network is always expanding and it’s basically interacting with its environment and the environment becomes an extension of the living network and (33:47) Basically life is finding this harmony with the universe around it (33:53) And the whole process is kind of this ratchet that ratchets up complexity (33:59) through these different dynamics the dialectical dynamic and the Darwinian dynamic and (34:04) So you can explain exactly (34:07) how (34:09) Nature is becoming more conscious through life. You can explain all the mechanisms you can explain how (34:17) Agents conscious agents are beings that have to model the world. They have to create a representation of the world and then (34:26) They that basically that model needs to constantly be (34:31) Progressing and being updated for the agents to be able to (34:36) Counter this tendency towards disorder to be able to continue to persist in the world and then you get a really interesting story (34:44) Where little bits of the universe which we call organisms because when you break organisms down they’re made of the same (34:51) You know fundamental (34:54) atoms that the rest of the universe is made of (34:58) You get these (35:00) organisms that are basically (35:02) the self-aware (35:05) Manifestations of the inanimate world and so you get a world that’s growing more alive and conscious (35:12) Through intelligent agents and then you start to see us as having a cosmic responsibility (35:17) We’re actually the stewards of this self-organization process.So our (35:23) progression is (35:25) nature’s progression towards a self-aware state and (35:29) As we are at least as we know the highest consciousness on this earth (35:35) That’s what gives us that responsibility of being stewards of that consciousness or to to expand it exact and grow that (35:42) Is that kind of what you’re saying as well? (35:44) Yeah, the our cosmic purpose is waking up the universe and we’re part of this intelligent network. That is the biosphere (35:50) But that’s just the beginning of the process. So (35:54) progress is going to (35:57) Basically (36:00) But here’s the interesting thing (36:02) I’m saying progress is inevitable like this is going to happen, but it doesn’t happen without us trying (36:08) We have to exercise right we are free will but right we end up doing that at some point (36:15) Because it’s the optimal strategy for survival.So what life needs to do to survive (36:23) Also helps (36:25) Nature wake up, but it’s this kind of unconscious process that (36:31) At first there’s not really a consciousness to it in the way that you know, we’re conscious beings (36:38) It’s more of an unconscious sort of computational process the way a eyes can (36:43) Do computation and seem intelligent without actually having a conscious experience (36:49) But then when humans arise and we realize our role in this process then we start to guide the evolutionary process (36:58) Yeah, so so to that point I look I look at thing people like Jordan Peterson with chaos and order (37:04) You have you have a certain percentage that must be order because that is what ties us to the foundation of structure (37:11) That is what keeps us alive. That is what’s worked (37:15) That’s what’s conservative is and then you’ve got that outlying (37:19) Percentage that is once again within that Overton window of range because if it’s too much (37:24) Ethereal we get lost in that and we don’t hold on to the tradition on the traditions that keep us going (37:31) But we can’t be too rigid because we don’t adapt quickly enough to change when things change around us (37:37) Yeah, the tradition constant. Yeah, and I really like that aspect of (37:43) What Peterson talks about because he’s got that right, but what he has I think he does have that right? (37:49) That’s about one of the things he’s gotten right recently.Yeah (37:53) Yes, so (37:55) I’m writing an article actually about his conversation with this guy Alex O’Connor as a YouTube channel called cosmic skeptic, but (38:04) Here’s the thing. I’m gonna go (38:05) further than Peterson on the kind of (38:09) Religious like spiritual side of things so I don’t think he’s fully recognized this (38:16) teleological aspect to evolution that the universe is waking up that it’s self-organizing towards something higher and (38:22) When you do when you do see that story (38:26) There’s a form of like the the people who came up with this idea (38:30) So the philosophers Hegel and kill hard a Chardin or people who really these are Dan. Yeah.Yeah (38:36) We’re the we’re the first to talk about this (38:38) and they were Christian and so there’s like a like a (38:44) sort of Christian (38:45) Cosmology that comes out of this that if Jordan Peterson is going to talk about religion and use these Christian (38:51) You know these religious metaphors, which I think can be helpful (38:56) He should go all the way and embrace (38:59) teal hearts (39:02) Omega point theory and (39:05) Because it it it reveals a lot more than just understanding that it’s about you know (39:11) This interplay between order and chaos that’s actually the mechanism that generates (39:17) increasing complexity (39:19) And yeah, so you’re exactly right (39:22) traditions are (39:25) That represents order it also represents our (39:30) Collected knowledge like our adaptive knowledge things that have worked in the past and that have proven useful (39:37) to society and some of those things are just (39:40) useful metaphors (39:43) But those patterns are real and that’s what Peterson talks about as well there there the the stories of the Bible represent (39:51) These patterns of nature that do get realized in other ways (39:56) Even if some of the stories aren’t literally true (40:00) and (40:02) Yes, so where we need a we’re (40:07) Conservatism represents our collective knowledge that we’ve built up over our evolutionary history (40:14) You still need to have this (40:17) flexibility where you can (40:19) change and (40:21) Update your belief system to be more in line with what we know today (40:25) So it is this balance of order and flexibility, but we shouldn’t forget that our traditions are (40:35) The consequence of evolution like they contain (40:38) The fruits of a lot of trial and error (40:46) Exploration experimentation by humanity. We don’t want to throw all that out (40:52) Just because we don’t believe anymore that (40:55) Jesus actually (40:57) You know was resurrected and came back from the dead (41:02) Right. Yeah, and to that point go to that Peterson point is (41:06) What I’m starting to find from him is he’s not talking about the God as an entity (41:12) But as God being the concept of the best goodest outcome in each certain situation (41:20) That’s how I read the stories in the Bible (41:22) yeah, yeah, and I think it’s a (41:26) Useful way to look at things and I just go even farther and say that this evolutionary process is actually building God that nature (41:34) Is synonymous with God the the creative principle? (41:39) That this interplay between (41:42) distinctly towards order and disorder that creates life and (41:46) drives life towards higher complexity and (41:50) That to me that’s (41:52) the most spiritual thing (41:55) You can imagine because in this story we are actual (42:00) Expressions of God and expressions of that creativity and then we have a certain amount of free will (42:06) which means we (42:08) Are like vessels of God.We’re actually (42:12) we have that creative power and (42:16) If you believe this story of the self organizing universe, I’ve been describing (42:21) Intelligent agents come together and form this cosmic scale (42:25) intelligence, so (42:27) that (42:29) Conscious agents right now are literally in God’s image if that’s true. We’re sort of little mini gods like micro versions of God and (42:36) It sounds pretty radical but people like Ray Kurzweil Google’s director of engineering (42:45) He is clearly singularity. Yeah the singularity, but that’s just (42:50) That’s just one stage.He has a great (42:53) As the waking up of the universe like ultimately it becomes the the technological singularity though is the moment where? (43:02) intelligence becomes (43:05) Self-improving and (43:06) exponential at that and and once that happens you can’t stop (43:11) Cosmic spread like you can’t you can’t it’s like a runaway train in this it really hits a tipping point for sure (43:17) So on free will let’s be theorists have (43:20) Yeah, a lot of scientists have recognized this but they haven’t followed the spiritual implications (43:25) And I kind of left that out of the first book (43:28) I was just kind of alluded to him but the second book the work the book I’m working on is kind of showing it going (43:33) through (43:34) the history of Eastern philosophy and Western philosophy and showing that if you look at (43:39) The history of philosophy and religion is one human project trying to understand the universe (43:45) You can find all these concepts that map on to this story (43:49) And they kind of pop out pop out at you and you see that there is a universal and true objective story here (43:56) and it’s actually extremely spiritual because it gives a (44:01) Intrinsic purpose and meaning to life to help the universe (44:05) become like self-realized self-actualized and (44:09) That we’re not these, you know, meaningless accidental systems and for me it it kind of fills me with a (44:18) Infuses like life with like purpose and meaning and kind of like a playful spirit to you like (44:25) Basically (44:26) in a fun in a fun way a game like (44:29) Experiment right like we can experiment and test and then find the best outcome (44:34) not by being rigid and strict or not by being completely ethereal but by I (44:39) Using our logic and our reason and stoicism and all these other things to come up with the best answers (44:46) Yeah, and it’s up to us to even define what’s best like what’s optimal? It’s it’s an open question (44:51) So you kind of choose the rules of the game? (44:55) But there are certain constraints like you must get energy. You must get food. You have to have a shelter (45:01) But um, yeah, but I love the human experiment.We look at the unit (45:06) We look at the United States Thomas Jefferson, right? We we talk about perfect. Everyone’s a perfect life (45:11) That is an impossibility because in my opinion the only way you can experience something is to understand its exact opposite contrast (45:19) Contrast is how we see the world (45:21) We don’t know what good is until we know what bad is (45:23) Exactly in order to know what perfect is (45:25) We’d have to know what the opposite of perfect is and I don’t think anyone could endure that (45:30) To to get to what perfect is (45:32) So what I love about even the United States concept a more perfect Union (45:37) It never says a perfect. It’s just to more perfect.It’s always to improve to constantly (45:44) Adapt and change and make more perfect, but obviously striving for that (45:48) We know we’ll never get there (45:50) Yeah, that and that’s this theory makes that explicit. It basically says it’s this (45:56) Never-ending process and it’s good because if you got there, what would that mean? (45:59) It sounds like that would be the end of progress. You have to have these problems (46:03) Don’t get we don’t get good feedback by hitting the goal.We get it by meat reaching little things toward the goal (46:10) Yeah, that’s another Peterson thing that I think he got dead on is you know (46:14) I I just invest in this whole bunch of time and equipment into this thing and it’s over now and almost breathing (46:20) But like I’ve now that’s where my work begins. Actually, it’s not over at that point, you know (46:24) But a lot of people get to a goal and then they think oh they can stop but that’s not where the excitement comes (46:31) It comes with like oh my gosh. I got to talk to this next person that I’ve been trying to talk to.Oh my gosh (46:36) I got to shake this person’s hand (46:38) I got to ask this person a question and it’s the little steps towards the largest goal of that (46:44) Accomplishment that really keeps us going and provides purpose and meaning (46:48) Yeah, totally (46:51) So, okay. So free will you mentioned free will I have to mention them? (46:56) Let’s go to the four horsemen, right? (46:59) Sam Harris, I’m assuming he’s a reductionist of which one of the reductionists of whom you speak (47:06) He because he talks about (47:08) Not really a thing, right? (47:10) So could you tell me a little bit about your thoughts on free will and then what your thoughts and how they contrast his thoughts on? (47:16) that perhaps (47:18) Yeah, he’s just kind of confused. So he’s in between reductionism and emergent ism (47:24) So what he does is he conflates biological determinism and physical determinism (47:29) so there’s a kind of determinism you see in the inanimate world with like (47:35) inanimate objects follow classical mechanics or Newtonian mechanics, so you can use (47:41) pretty simple formulas (47:43) from Newton’s laws to predict where an object is going to go if you (47:48) If you map out all the forces that are acting on it, you can know (47:53) Basically the path of an object (47:56) But you can’t do that for organisms.So (48:01) Organisms have what’s called agency (48:03) so they are more autonomous than (48:08) Inanimate objects (48:10) It’s it’s a process that can be understood. I mean used to be really mysterious people (48:15) Some biologists were what’s called vitalists where they thought there was this kind of supernatural force animating life (48:21) And we find out that there is like a puppet on strings kind of basically (48:27) more of like some kind of (48:29) flowing essence in (48:33) Living systems that propelled them towards goals (48:37) where inanimate objects didn’t so Aristotle had this concept of (48:42) intellect e and (48:43) teleology (48:45) Henry Bergson is a French philosopher had the concept of the Ilan Vital and (48:51) They were right in the sense that organisms behave differently than inanimate objects (48:59) But then we start to learn that organisms what what’s special I give this in agency is information like this adaptive information (49:06) they’ve encoded through evolution through this learning process and (49:10) Also this control cybernetic control. It’s kind of like life can use feedback loops life kind of uses (49:18) chaos and self amplification to kind of (49:22) be able to (49:23) Control the environment.They’re like these living. Well, it provides the pressures for evolution to be forced to happen, right? (49:32) What’s that? (49:33) It basically provides the pressure for evolution to happen, right? What does? (49:38) That that last part that you were saying it provides the pressure to make change happen or to oh, yeah (49:44) so so natural selection is like the (49:48) The selection pressure that weeds out all the dysfunctional designs. So yeah, exactly, right.There’s like a (49:55) this constant pressure between the environment and (49:59) organism and so natural selection is needed (50:04) Because it’s kind of optimizing the design of life (50:09) but so we learned that (50:11) organisms are these like computational systems and they have this autonomy because (50:16) They’re these kind of computers, but they’re not just (50:21) The it’s it wouldn’t be accurate to like reduce them to the computers we have because we also have minds (50:27) And so we’re conscious emotion part. We’re conscious computers were like emotional computers (50:32) So that brings a spiritual quality to a computation. It’s not just computation (50:38) It’s a conscious agent.That’s a control system and there are deterministic (50:44) Processes in the brain as well. There’s a lot of stuff we do automatically. So we have this like program and (50:52) That program has been (50:55) Sculpted by (50:57) Our evolutionary history.So there’s instincts that we have that are genetically encoded (51:03) But there’s also a lot of stuff we’ve learned we learn a worldview and that kind of programs is too and we have certain (51:10) behaviors given certain inputs (51:13) So when Sam Sam Harris makes argument against free will (51:18) He doesn’t make this distinction between physical determinism and biological determinism. So we do have (51:25) Freedom in a way that all organisms have freedom in a way that inanimate organisms (51:31) I mean inanimate objects don’t have that some people will just grant them free will for having causal power (51:38) So it’s called causal power. There are these higher level causes in the old view (51:43) Everything was just if you look at everything as particles following mathematical trajectories (51:48) You get this kind of idea of a pool ball (51:50) Universe like everything is like a pool ball and it’s all the molecules are just following these mathematical trajectories (51:56) But what we really find is that these things these computational (52:01) architectures emerge and then the whole system gets control because it’s (52:05) This system that’s taking in patterns through sensory information and it’s understanding that it’s an agent in the world and it’s (52:14) using those patterns stored patterns to make predictions about the future, so (52:19) We have free will because we have agency we have causal power over the world in the way inanimate objects don’t (52:26) But then you might ask well, is it how free is it when you say free? (52:30) So sure we have will we have this autonomous behavior the self-driven behavior (52:35) how much freedom is there and (52:39) So then you start to think about biological determinism like there are these (52:45) Bacteria that are really simple.So there’s they’ll swim away from (52:50) Toxic substances and towards chemical food. They’ll just if they sense (52:58) Food their their their tail their their flagella won’t wiggle (53:02) But if they don’t it’ll wiggle so they’re these little simple programs. So there’s not much freedom in that behavior (53:09) But they are a gentle there (53:11) They are moving towards survival goals in ways that dead things don’t like you see life and you’re like, wow, it has agency (53:18) But free will I think to say, you know to earn the the title free (53:27) that (53:27) comes when you have a certain level of (53:30) Self-consciousness and (53:32) Then you can basically that’s the awareness of being aware.Is that what you would call consciousness or what? (53:38) What would you all that exact level? So the awareness of being aware, I think is self-awareness. It’s just kind of like a meta (53:46) Level like a step up like you you’re not just aware of the world (53:50) You’re aware that you have a mind that you’re an agent in the world and that you’re conscious (53:54) You can almost see you can always picture self (53:56) You can even picture yourself or imagine yourself in like third person with that person. Yeah, so that’s a different angles (54:03) That’s that’s an awesome distinction to make so that’s exactly where I was going.So I (54:07) Think they’re good (54:09) I’m glad you said that because that told me okay. This this is like a meaningful thing to add to that (54:16) Is that and maybe it even counts as another level of awareness? (54:19) So I’ve called this meta awareness. So that word is used sometimes to mean self-awareness in the literature (54:24) But basically (54:26) There’s an awareness that you’re an agent that’s part of a larger network of agents that themselves make (54:35) an intelligence and so that’s when you get that kind of like (54:40) Perspective like an almost godlike view or a drone like perspective (54:45) excuse me, and (54:46) so (54:48) Can we pause for just one second? Can we talk for one second? I think I’ve used a restroom.I’m very sorry (54:54) Well, my voice is dying. I’ve been like dry for like days trying to do my my this whole thing and like I’ve been hydrated (55:00) Like crazy. Thank you so much.I’ll be right back. Thank you so much. Yeah, no problem.Thank you again (56:49) I really appreciate it. No problem. So we’re getting this top-down (56:53) God (56:55) Theory piece.Okay. This is where exactly where we’re going. Let’s talk simulation.Okay, so sure, but um (57:01) Good. Yeah, just to say one more thing about free will so when we have that perspective (57:06) Then we can see that all the possible trajectories and we can choose our path out of the menu of possibilities (57:12) So a certain level of awareness brings free will into the picture (57:17) Because you can literally choose between (57:19) Different possibilities. You can also use consciousness to imagine (57:25) Possibilities that don’t exist yet and (57:28) That’s another Peterson point (57:29) That’s where he says the idea is everything can die in an idea versus in actual trying to make it happen (57:37) Yeah, there’s this and that’s where the chaos (57:39) If every if all the ideas become facts without being tested for their durability or their fragility or their anti fragility (57:47) Then that’s not good for us because it could collapse around us, right? (57:52) Yeah, so the evolutionary process that we’re talking about this self-organization process it it we’re used to thinking about it happening at the level (57:59) of organisms organisms competing and some dying and some (58:04) Existing and making copies of themselves, but it happens in the world of ideas to the world of means and (58:10) Peterson talks about memes and says Dawkins hasn’t gone far far enough.But yeah, they’re (58:15) Started it. I mean he started. Yeah (58:17) Gene, right, so he invented meme.That’s pretty cool (58:21) Yeah (58:21) and and there’s there’s way more to that literature than (58:23) Then Peterson knows because I saw him saying things where it was, you know clear like people I didn’t David Deutsch have (58:30) Really thought about this. But um, yeah, there’s a natural (58:33) by the way (58:34) And I’m so sorry that about his passing and I saw that at least he and Peterson got to talk a few weeks before his (58:40) Passing which was which is yeah, I need to go back and watch that. I got to meet him and talk to it was good (58:46) Yeah, I bet it was (58:48) And yeah, that’s really interesting.You got to meet him difference of use. Yeah, my friend (58:54) has like (58:55) kind of a (58:57) consciousness AI discussion group (59:00) That’s an Air Force group and they invited him (59:04) Like maybe a year ago and I got to ask him a question and we talked about this kind of stuff (59:11) Yeah, it was really neat (59:14) Yeah, cuz he’s he’s actually my of the four he he’s the lead (59:19) He’s the one that’s lost the least amount of luster over the years. I guess he’s (59:24) of (59:24) Of luster over the years.Yeah a lot of people, you know (59:28) they you know, I think Harris has gone a little TDS on some things and I think that (59:33) Dawkins has got a little UK imperialistic about some other things and I yeah (59:38) Obviously Hitchens, you know, I’m I’m kind of an anti-theist and we’ll talk about that for sure (59:43) Because it’s not what many people think people think I’m like anti God and it’s like not that at all (59:49) To me theism is the human (59:53) Interpretation of God and my anti-theism is with what I’ve experienced (59:58) I don’t know what it is. I only know that the human (1:00:03) Translation of it is 100% not correct. It’s (1:00:08) superficial and it became institutionalized through the Catholic Church and all these other institutions and you know, and (1:00:15) Mmm, you know institutions we find are fallible because they’re human and I’ve always now looked at the direct connection as (1:00:23) The the true source of how to do it because it has to be spoken in your language (1:00:28) you’re the only one who understands your perceptions and I will talk about some of the some of the things that I’ve experienced as well because (1:00:36) Like you said you talk top-down (1:00:38) Or at least that’s how we get the top-down (1:00:41) philosophy, right and (1:00:43) To you and I I think we’re at the thought that consciousness becoming emergent.There was a base reality, right? (1:00:51) There was a start (1:00:54) Emergent property. I think we’re actually on a multiple iteration of this consciousness emergence (1:01:00) That could be true. And yeah, that’s that’s what I’m writing about my new book.I kind of wrote that in (1:01:07) So but wait, and that’s where the consciousness come (1:01:10) I’m sorry (1:01:11) that’s where the simulation theory comes back around if I may because if if I may kind of describe it how I (1:01:16) perceive it from my experiences is (1:01:19) consciousness emerges (1:01:20) We get races and biological entities that have millions of years on us or even thousands of years. They don’t need many more (1:01:28) I mean look what we did in a hundred, right? (1:01:30) I mean imagine if we focused and didn’t have war and we just focused on technology or advancement or betterment (1:01:36) We think there was a society like that exist we could demilitarize tomorrow (1:01:40) We could demilitarize tomorrow and put all of that money into funding progress and absolutely would be absolutely. Yeah (1:01:47) So imagine that imagine society like that exists and then they are now (1:01:52) There’s that global con there’s that universal consciousness that we spoke of and now they are that next creator of the next base reality (1:02:00) Right.It’s kind of like turtles all the way down and we keep talking about that. So I I use God (1:02:05) This is my concept of God. I call it the place from which everything came (1:02:10) And by using that statement, there’s no argument from anyone if I go up.Do you believe in the place from which everything came? (1:02:18) Most people’s they might have a name for it like God or Big Bang or whatever (1:02:22) But the concept of that is seems to be universal. What are your thoughts? That’s beautiful. That’s perfect (1:02:30) That’s like you set me up to like knock it out of the park.That’s like what? (1:02:35) Here you go (1:02:37) That’s what my next book is about so (1:02:40) And I didn’t know that by the way (1:02:42) Just so you know (1:02:43) so maybe that’s why I know that and now let me let you down because my answer isn’t as good as it should be if (1:02:48) I’m not gonna know this is something I’m working on. I’m trying to understand it myself (1:02:55) I’m trying to learn from (1:03:01) Religious philosophies (1:03:03) And understand what this story of cosmic self-organization is better (1:03:08) but what you find out when you start looking for correspondences between this theory and (1:03:14) religions and (1:03:16) Western philosophy (1:03:19) Is these are these universal concepts that you alluded to so in Hinduism (1:03:24) There’s Brahman and Brahman just means it’s not really a personal deity (1:03:29) Which you seem to be kind of like that’s what you’re pushing back against (1:03:33) with religion in general (1:03:35) it’s more of this (1:03:37) concept of there being this (1:03:40) meaningful whole this this (1:03:43) totality from which everything emanates and (1:03:48) What (1:03:49) What the German idealists there were some philosophers in the 18th and oh, that’s why I’m so good (1:03:56) My parents are German, that’s how I know this it’s yeah, it’s in your genetic (1:04:02) I’m half Persian and it’s in Zoroastrianism, too (1:04:06) It’s written and I sometimes I feel like huh if our ancestors there is, you know, like (1:04:12) Epigenetic and printing like if they did have this (1:04:15) Concept in their culture. You could very well be kind of primed to think this way (1:04:21) Um, but but with with the German idealists, so Hegel and Schelling (1:04:25) Hegel being the most famous they had this idea that the universe (1:04:30) that that that nature was basically in this process of (1:04:34) developing or a process of becoming and that it was (1:04:39) becoming self-aware through (1:04:42) Self-aware agents like humans basically the story that I’ve been telling (1:04:46) This whole time was what the German (1:04:49) idealists had come up with (1:04:51) But they had a concept called the absolute and the absolute was the same thing as what you described and it was the same thing (1:04:58) as Brahman (1:05:00) but (1:05:01) Where the absolute where Brahman is a little bit more vague (1:05:06) It’s just supposed to be like, you know reality and its totality and everything comes from that (1:05:12) the absolute is something that is (1:05:15) evolving and developing and (1:05:18) Manifesting itself like in more complex forms and through those (1:05:23) forms, excuse me, they come to (1:05:26) Nature comes to realize itself.So it’s the story of cosmic evolution absolute. It’s an absolute in the direction (1:05:32) It’s going not an absolute in a fixed way (1:05:36) It’s always evolving. It’s not this fixed, right? (1:05:39) So adding things a lot of people think of absolutes is like it’s fixed, right? (1:05:43) But this is absolute in its progress of expanding (1:05:47) Yes, it’s everything so it’s reality in its totality, but that reality is (1:05:53) transforming and (1:05:55) Developing and it’s moving towards a state ultimately where it understand it’s understand.It’s understand itself (1:06:02) so the absolute is the story of the becoming of Brahman and (1:06:06) The philosopher till hard a shard and I think the French pronounce it a our day shard on if I’m being fancy (1:06:13) Yeah, this concept of the omega my pinky when we drink our tea (1:06:19) He had this concept of the Omega point which he (1:06:25) Understood as being the cosmic Christ like the point at which this higher consciousness (1:06:31) Emerges and that was kind of the resurrection of Jesus and in the world. They do call it Christ consciousness (1:06:37) They do call that Yahweh Christ consciousness and things like that (1:06:41) Yes, so (1:06:42) These ideas are kind of scattered throughout religion (1:06:47) but if you look at it from the perspective of this self-organizing cosmos story where humans are the (1:06:53) self-aware manifestations of this (1:06:56) creative principle then you get (1:06:59) Brahman is the whole totality of it. It’s the self-organizing universe (1:07:04) The Tao the Tao the is sort of the organizing tendency of Brahman becoming (1:07:13) More complex and more organized and coherent and the story is basically one of Brahman (1:07:20) becoming the cosmic Christ (1:07:22) through (1:07:24) Conscious agents basically (1:07:28) Reproducing like proliferating and then coming together to make this (1:07:32) cosmic scale distributed intelligence (1:07:35) And so there’s another concept in Hinduism aside from Brahman.So Brahman is everything but there’s also into (1:07:42) Individual consciousness and the name for that is Atman (1:07:46) But there’s this, you know principle in Hinduism that says Atman is identical to Brahman and that’s what the German idealists (1:07:53) We’re really saying is that the absolute is everything (1:07:57) but it’s basically evolving and it’s creating these (1:08:01) Self-aware systems these organisms that allow it to it to experience itself and (1:08:09) That this process is (1:08:11) headed towards a more perfect state and what’s interesting is there does seem to be a moral arc to this process as (1:08:20) Organisms get more intelligent. We become more aware of other agents (1:08:25) We recognize that where that it’s all an interconnect passion for example emerges more compassion with when we develop a theory of mind (1:08:33) So we develop a theory of that their thing other things have other minds (1:08:38) We naturally become more compassionate. So there’s a moral arc and that’s (1:08:43) That concept comes from Zoroastrianism.There’s this concept of Asha and so Asha is kind of like this (1:08:50) ordering principle that’s similar to the Tao and (1:08:55) Brahman (1:08:57) But it’s specifically also related to (1:09:00) Ethical progress. So if you look at Eastern religion you have these religions that kind of (1:09:08) explain (1:09:09) deities as (1:09:12) personified (1:09:13) cosmic functions (1:09:16) And not even really personified so much they’re just mapping cosmic functions (1:09:20) And you think about it look at look at the Roman gods (1:09:23) They were they were functions of acts right like God of war God of you know (1:09:28) Agriculture, so they always personified an act or an action or some kind of meaning I guess (1:09:35) Yeah (1:09:36) so you could (1:09:37) construct like a meta religion that takes the things that map on to the dynamics of nature and (1:09:44) You basically get concepts from all of these different religions and you can see this (1:09:48) Kind of evolutionary development in Eastern and Western philosophy and you have the Greeks they’re the seeds for all these things in (1:09:55) Greek philosophy and (1:09:58) so (1:10:00) then you have a picture of a (1:10:03) God like you described where everything is seen as part of an interconnected whole (1:10:10) But we don’t know if this universe is is the beginning of this process or another iteration (1:10:16) And if we are one iteration (1:10:18) Then we could be the creation of an intelligent agent just the same way that we’re starting to create (1:10:24) Digital virtual worlds with agents and you could imagine creating a program if you don’t think you know computers are conscious (1:10:31) There’s neuromorphic hardware. You could imagine a certain hardware that has (1:10:35) biological (1:10:37) Architecture you could even use biology you can string cells together and you can start creating intelligent or link, right? (1:10:44) We’ve only where we’re starting to become transhuman anyway, right (1:10:48) Yes, I think that’s where this process is inevitably heading that we merge with our technology.And that’s what allows us to (1:10:57) basically (1:10:58) cut like expanding through the universe becomes (1:11:01) Something that doesn’t seem impossible once that merger happens, even though people are scared of that merger. It’s gonna happen (1:11:07) Over time it’s gonna be a seamless transition to you. I think there’s a way to do it.That will be (1:11:14) painless and (1:11:15) Just natural. Yeah, but but money’s involved. So it’s not gonna be painless (1:11:20) It’s gonna be that you know, the tops are gonna get it and get that advancement, you know (1:11:24) Yeah, there will be it there will be a day when I think all conscious agents will have the ability (1:11:32) to have life extended basically indefinitely (1:11:36) But you’re right right now (1:11:38) The people with the most resources are (1:11:41) Gonna be the ones that get it and they’re racing.But I mean if that’s true, then in a way, they’re the guinea pigs (1:11:47) So, I mean maybe maybe it’s good (1:11:49) But no bad, right (1:11:52) Yeah, and if our universe is another iteration of this then we do there is a guy there is a creator (1:11:57) So there there could perhaps be some sort of intelligent agent that created this world. But for me (1:12:04) Then you still have to ask where that agent came from (1:12:06) So ultimately the most the deepest explanation is just that reality has this fundamental (1:12:13) Tendency towards life and consciousness that just keeps growing and then that’s where you derive all the meaning from (1:12:21) Right and and to your point once again, we get we do talk turtles all the way down (1:12:24) What what may God to the same point that you’re talking about is I do think there was a zero point like a big bang (1:12:30) Piece where everything was quantum entangled and I’ll explain that because that’s where we go into the woo stuff (1:12:38) But that’s all quantum entangled and that was the first iteration of this base reality. That was ground zero (1:12:44) That was patient zero and then that did become it to your philosophy the emergent property and then that created the first God (1:12:53) That then created the second iteration of the base reality in my opinion (1:12:57) Yes, we might be a multiple so it still didn’t to your point it doesn’t have a starting God (1:13:04) It just followed the patterns of evolution (1:13:07) But then that next when it did become universally conscious then it allowed for the next (1:13:15) Yeah, it’s reality 2.0 (1:13:17) Yeah, so (1:13:19) Yeah, the I think I have the same view and the way I try to describe it when people have that something-for-nothing (1:13:26) How do you get something from nothing question? Is that maybe? (1:13:31) Nothing is inherently unstable.Maybe there’s just this tendency towards higher organization (1:13:39) That (1:13:41) just explains (1:13:43) Where everything comes from? (1:13:45) You just have to accept that there’s an organizing principle in nature (1:13:50) so (1:13:52) But the way you described it sounds like it could explain (1:13:56) how (1:13:57) Organization came about from this universe in this universe (1:14:01) But yeah (1:14:02) It just makes me wonder whether there’s been other iterations and whether there’s a deeper base reality (1:14:09) And whether that same explanation when we’re talking in terms of quantum stuff whether that still applies (1:14:15) I think it probably would in some general sense, but I keep it a little more general and say like (1:14:21) Yeah, there’s just inherent stability in a state of nothingness (1:14:26) and a reality that expresses the totality of possibilities is (1:14:32) Also going to have something in addition to nothing (1:14:36) But yeah, well we talk about Lawrence Lawrence (1:14:39) Brown who’s the yes Lawrence Krauss in the origins project, right? What doesn’t space had space isn’t nothing it’s composed of stuff (1:14:48) It’s not nothing. It’s not a yes. Oh, yeah, so (1:14:53) That’s where I kind of was trying to probe your explanation further because it sounds kind of like what Krauss talks about (1:15:01) There’s kind of this (1:15:03) quantum (1:15:04) ground of everything that (1:15:08) Spontaneously order emerges from that but that’s (1:15:13) Presupposing a different kind of existence where there’s this sort of quantum (1:15:20) Foam reality where there’s still there’s still laws too.And that’s been a criticism right of his things. Well, it would be (1:15:28) well (1:15:30) It could create all the multiverses with different laws in them like physics and gravity (1:15:35) Are they all you know dark energy has a different number than the dark matter does and gravity is a different constant things like that (1:15:41) and that’s where the test the universe has come out and then law of natural selection the universe that (1:15:46) Works or that adapts within it within those laws are the ones that survive (1:15:50) Yeah (1:15:51) there’s cosmological natural selection theory that says that every time there’s a black hole that forms in the universe secretes basically a baby universe on (1:15:59) the other side that inherits (1:16:00) the constants and laws of physics of the parent universe, but with some variation and (1:16:06) through this process you’ll get (1:16:08) universes that create life that are friendly for life because (1:16:14) Basically the conditions that lead to universes that create a lot of black holes (1:16:19) those universes with stars are more likely to give rise to life and if intelligent life can engineer these universes then (1:16:26) that growing evolving multiverse starts becoming mostly populated with (1:16:31) Universes that lead to intelligences and universes that lead that basically go towards these Omega points (1:16:37) So, I think that might be the right answer, but I still think when you look at that process (1:16:44) It’s still inevitably producing life and complexity and consciousness. So to me (1:16:50) There’s always like a spiritual aspect of it because it describes a universe that’s moving towards (1:16:58) consciousness ultimately and (1:17:02) I (1:17:02) Don’t know if you can ever get a fully satisfying (1:17:06) Explanation of why nature is that way but when you recognize that (1:17:10) that’s the way nature is as opposed to a (1:17:15) system that gives rise to life, but it’s only transient and it fades out and we fail in our (1:17:22) Dream of (1:17:24) Expanding past our star because when our star dies if we don’t get out of the solar system (1:17:32) The planets not going to be habitable (1:17:34) so (1:17:37) Yeah, it’s it’s always mysterious and that’s what’s interesting about it, but I think what you (1:17:44) The explanation you’ve converged on it’s like a new type of spirituality (1:17:50) It’s basically not that different from Eastern and Western religion (1:17:54) but it’s looking at it in a more rational way and it’s not placing so much importance on (1:18:03) Literal interpretations of stories that were meant to teach people principles that would be useful in life (1:18:10) Well, thank you for that I really appreciate it I’m trying to keep up with you (1:18:14) I I swore today if I was if I stumbled I I was like Biden I over prepared (1:18:19) I swear I over prepared I didn’t it’s not because I have dementia or anything.Yeah. No, it’s it’s been great (1:18:24) I’m a little spacey (1:18:25) It’s a little bit later in the day than I usually do podcasts because we’re in different times (1:18:29) But I know and I and I’m really gracious for the time and I I’d love to touch into this before we go because like (1:18:35) I know we talked for a long time (1:18:36) I hope we had I hope this compels us to have another conversation because I what you just talked about your (1:18:42) Conspiracy thing I would love to be some part of that in some way (1:18:45) I mean in some way contributing because I’ve actually done debunked and I just love that and I love those kind of those kinds of things (1:18:52) So it would be cool to do it in a really responsible (1:18:57) Systematic way. I’m just 100.I’m just worried that it’s gonna lead us towards things that people don’t (1:19:03) People said that I don’t care. No, I’m actually I seek truth. So this is what happened if may I share my woo? (1:19:11) Sure.Yeah, I love it. Okay, so (1:19:15) Everyone calls it woo. This is what I called.I call it fruit loop and wind chimer. Okay, I’m no (1:19:19) I’m not a fruit loop wind chimer. Okay? (1:19:22) I’m (1:19:25) Okay, I (1:19:26) Call it woo.I was like Wu Tang W you so nice (1:19:31) Wu-Tang all that the Wu-Tang clang would be the greatest podcast name ever (1:19:36) W-o-o Tang clan. Yes. I’m getting that one down Wu-Tang clan calm.Where is it? (1:19:41) Well, so so so woo w-o-o would be the the stuff that’s not real the pseudoscience (1:19:46) It turns out to be fake (1:19:47) But some of the woo the w-o-o will find is real if we did one of these kind of Bayesian exercises (1:19:54) But you know (1:19:54) you don’t know and that’s why I want to share with you if I’m tons of things that we’ve (1:19:59) Figured out that would appear to be a garage door opener would look like magic to someone right? Well lighter (1:20:04) You think about it later? That’s what I use (1:20:06) Imagine imagine a caveman going back in time and making fire come out of your hand (1:20:11) They’d either stone you or worship you. There’s really no there’s no middle ground there (1:20:15) Yeah, so some of its real and so w-u is is the Wu that’s the real Wu I (1:20:21) Like it so on that (1:20:22) I was 13 years old and I was involved in a car accident where I was ejected from a vehicle (1:20:29) I had a near-death experience and out-of-body experience. I recall hovering over my body (1:20:35) It was clumped like I was like in a fetal position curled up on the ground and I remember blue and red flashing lights (1:20:42) We how are my (1:20:44) 13 years old 13 (1:20:47) Fast forward to I’m 40 years old and (1:20:51) I’m struggling with life over time and getting more and more resentful (1:20:56) not understanding my perp not understanding a lot of things and (1:21:01) I (1:21:02) Decided to seek help.So I didn’t want to go psychology didn’t want to do sites (1:21:07) Psychiatry because I didn’t want to be prescribed medication (1:21:11) Plus in my humble opinion, I’m smarter than all of those people. I needed something that we always do (1:21:18) Yeah all do respect and I know but it’s one of those things where it’s like if you if I can trust that someone’s that (1:21:23) I can admire and see something that I can aspire to then I at least have something but if I can’t get that I I (1:21:30) Can’t build that. Yeah trust I guess.Yeah, so I sought out neuro linguistic programming. I’m sure you’re familiar (1:21:38) I am I think it’s really interesting and I I (1:21:42) Imagine there’s some stuff that people claim that’s fake, but I also think language is extremely powerful and that you can (1:21:50) completely (1:21:51) Do interesting things with how you use words? (1:21:56) yeah, so I (1:21:59) The so the person I picked (1:22:01) The reason I picked them is because they had a degree in quantum mechanics (1:22:06) Nonlinear mathematics, you know applied mathematics things like that (1:22:09) So I’m like if if nothing else I can just buy a friend for an hour and talk like cool (1:22:15) Stuff right? Like that’s the way I saw it. So so I walked into this guy’s office and (1:22:22) He he looks at me walking in just his little room where I go to sit down and talk to him (1:22:27) It was like an introduction try it for $35, you know, one of those things whatever and I walk in he looks at me (1:22:34) Instantaneously sees my like me scanning the room and he cocks his head.He goes (1:22:40) You’re different (1:22:42) And come on man, you’re I’m midlife crisis, you know, my love crisis like I didn’t I didn’t really want to be here anymore (1:22:49) I wasn’t sure if I wanted to be here anymore. So like he instantaneously connected with me (1:22:54) I mean, that’s the perfect thing to tell somebody who feels different is oh, yeah, by the way, you’re different because you you know (1:22:59) So he obviously knew I think he just knew what to say to be completely honest (1:23:03) I don’t think it was anything outside of he just knew how to well, that’s a that’s a magical skill in its own (1:23:09) It isn’t a it’s an amazing skill (1:23:11) We’ll get to it because I think there is a deeper component (1:23:13) but I do want to at least acknowledge what we can basically say is (1:23:17) A fact that he knows what to say to to have someone who’s distraught coming into their office talk (1:23:24) so fast forward (1:23:26) I’m learning some things about my subconscious learning things getting better. He he finally says we’re gonna do a guided meditation (1:23:33) I have never done a guided meditation in my life.I don’t know what these things are (1:23:38) So I’m like, okay, he says, okay, you’re you close your eyes. Just relax breathe (1:23:43) You’re on the ocean (1:23:44) You’re in the you’re on the ocean and you’re at the beach and you pick up a sapphire (1:23:48) Then you look up in the sky and you see this feather (1:23:51) In the sky and then you see these shades of our sheets of glass spinning in the sky and in them are visions like pictures (1:23:59) video and (1:24:00) So I imagine all these things and in the sheet of glass and Bobby you’ve talked with me long enough just to understand (1:24:07) I’m absolutely lucid (1:24:10) in the sheet of glass (1:24:12) black man behind a podium (1:24:15) 2015 (1:24:17) Looks to shake someone’s hand to his right (1:24:20) Looks to shake his hand to someone to his left and I see a flash and the flash to me indicated gun. I (1:24:29) Don’t know why or anything I (1:24:33) Never experienced anything ever in the history of my life like that.I (1:24:39) Came out of it and I had tears and this is 2015 (1:24:42) Please mind use and you could probably corroborate this the how the subconscious works. I came out of it (1:24:47) I looked at the doctor or the NLP guy and I said, I just saw Obama get shot (1:24:52) And I was distraught (1:24:55) Completely distraught like I was starting to breathe heavy and I was like crying like almost in the verge of tears (1:25:02) He looks at me deadpan and he goes that either happened somewhere else (1:25:07) Where it’s gonna happen here (1:25:09) No joke, okay (1:25:13) Next Thursday, I come into his office and he goes. Hey, remember that vision you had last week (1:25:21) You hear what happened last night, I don’t know if you heard what happened yesterday and I’m like (1:25:27) Yeah, I heard something about some shooting or something and (1:25:30) He breaks down for me that Clementa Pinckney the South Carolina person was the man that I saw (1:25:38) And there’s a video (1:25:40) He told me I I did not do this.He told me so I went back into a video April (1:25:46) 2015 there’s a video of Clementa Pinckney at the State Senate and it looks (1:25:51) In a suit. He’s behind a podium (1:25:55) He has this mannerism where he takes his hand and he brings it from his right to his left across his body all the time (1:26:01) It’s the weirdest. I’ve never seen anyone have this mannerism and the hairs on my arm stand up every time I see it Wow, I (1:26:10) Love that.I have a friend that oh, sorry. I was just gonna say no. No, that’s it.No, please stop (1:26:16) a friend that is very rational minded to when the (1:26:21) assassination attempt happened (1:26:23) the other night they said that they had a (1:26:26) Kind of vision of that like just not, you know anything mystical (1:26:30) but they had been they had thought of that like that idea like came into their head that that (1:26:35) Might happen and that was weird and then I was kind of probing them like interested in and then they were like (1:26:42) Well, maybe maybe after I saw it happen (1:26:45) I just retroactively like made that memory like they started to question themselves and I asked I was like (1:26:52) it’d be really interesting to know like how many like you could somehow do a survey of everyone and like how many people (1:26:59) Had that in me like it. Yes those kind of things really (1:27:03) interest me because (1:27:05) You start thinking about causality and how everything is (1:27:08) Interconnected and John Wheeler (1:27:11) theoretical physicists and did these experiments where he showed there was like this kind of backward causality this kind of handshake through time where (1:27:21) Yeah (1:27:22) People should look that up. Yeah, it’s it’s really weird (1:27:24) It’s kind of hard to explain but uh, and the mirror of engine is all about causality (1:27:28) I mean, I love that part like in the matrix the mirror of engine is literally describes the whole simulation theory at its best (1:27:34) Yeah, I got to get deeper into the philosophy of it is that in the the sequels just in general, yeah (1:27:44) Yeah, we could talk about another time but yeah, it’s basically through just the I mean matrix is kind of simulation theory (1:27:50) And it was actually a black woman who wrote the initial book that the Wachowskis kind of hijacked allegedly (1:27:55) I’d be interested to see what book it was based on.I didn’t know that but I’ll share that info with you (1:28:01) I have all that cuz like I go down I go wide and deep man (1:28:04) Yeah for the for the record the matrix came out before Nick Bostrom published his simulation theory argument (1:28:11) And the book was written in 1980 actually by the woman I think (1:28:16) It’s really interesting. I’ll share that information with you for sure. So so if I may if I may continue I yeah, there’s more (1:28:22) I didn’t know.Oh, it’s not that that started it by that that that alone is pretty insane (1:28:29) Yeah, so this is 2015 now since then (1:28:35) I I get visions I get I don’t meditate anymore. I can’t meditate because I’ll go places (1:28:43) It’s burdensome because I see a lot of darkness and I’ve got a couple philosophies on it (1:28:48) I love to just I want to play what I love about this is this is this is the thing (1:28:52) Let’s be Bayesian about it. I love that.You’re just open to the ideas and (1:28:57) These are my thoughts. I have I’ve explained my (1:29:02) Experiences and I’ll share a couple more with you just to solidify how like they’re just some are fun (1:29:07) Some are real heavy some are light summer, you know, they’re all over the place, but they’re not controlled by (1:29:12) a little bit of a Bayesian explanation for for what you’re doing (1:29:19) It doesn’t explain (1:29:22) Well the experience the fact that that happened so this isn’t trying to explain away the experience (1:29:29) But it’s giving some insight on what the brain does as a as a Bayesian system (1:29:37) So that that basically means it just makes predictions (1:29:40) It takes what it knows about the world takes the patterns that it knows and it starts to generate (1:29:45) Predictions about what might happen. So when people are having these kind of like prophetic visions (1:29:50) It’s collective human inference and what I think is going on and when I talked about philosophy as being like one (1:29:58) In religion being one like grand project of humanity.It represents this act of collective human inference. So we’re all (1:30:07) Trying to understand the world (1:30:09) Based on what we see and what we know and we start making predictions about the nature of it and we start trying to predict (1:30:15) The future so your brain is doing this kind of Bayesian exercise where it’s constructing possible futures (1:30:23) but whether whether it’s actually (1:30:26) Tapping into things that are going to happen like how it’s (1:30:31) actually converging on real events (1:30:34) that’s something that’s not fully explained, but (1:30:38) We don’t know the extent of entanglement to we did so I’m just trying to point figure out how it can be working. Yeah (1:30:46) There are two things and once again, I I thank you just for delving into this because I’m not telling you that my imagination (1:30:55) Is real I’m telling you that I experienced what I imagined (1:31:00) What I’m telling you my experience is real (1:31:02) I’m not telling you what it means because I don’t know what it means, but it really freaky (1:31:07) And I like I said, we have a lot of conversations down the road probably all just in general to have chats (1:31:13) I’m not I’m not lying.It’s crazy. But I’ve had other people tell me these kinds of stories recently and (1:31:20) It’s always really interesting to hear it from the people who are kind of skeptical minded and rational to begin with (1:31:27) Because then you’re like, well, they have no (1:31:32) Ideological motivation to believe in (1:31:34) this kind of like, you know certain things that (1:31:39) It would be hard to fit into our current scientific framework, which makes it more believable (1:31:44) So I call my podcast Knocked Conscious because yeah, I was knocked conscious at that moment (1:31:54) So to use perception like we talked about perception and how we translate our own world (1:31:59) This is how I got to this direct connection with God versus the institutionalized and you know (1:32:05) My I and this is how I got to my anti-theist philosophy. So (1:32:08) There are two two instances.I remember my last girlfriend. We were on our first date and (1:32:15) we were talking about you know, if we were gonna have kids what we name our kids or something and (1:32:20) She said I know what I’m gonna name. I if I have a girl (1:32:23) I know exactly what I’m gonna name her and no one would ever guess it and (1:32:28) I’m a pilot and (1:32:31) Amelia Earhart popped into my head (1:32:33) No idea why but that’s what I’m gonna go.Is it Amelia and she like turns goes white? (1:32:39) Freak yeah, but this is what’s interesting. He was from Amelia Bedelia (1:32:46) Okay, I wasn’t Amelia Earhart so but I would not have understood Amelia Bedelia (1:32:51) Yeah, I only would have understood Amelia Earhart because I don’t know what Amelia Bedelia like that’s not my thing (1:32:57) Yeah (1:32:58) So it was already the even the image came to me and was perceived the way I would perceive it (1:33:05) Not the way she okay like you got the image from outside but then your brain created a context to create an explanation (1:33:14) Which might not necessarily have been the real reason that it popped into your head (1:33:18) Right, and this is so weird because I honestly think it was a button pushed (1:33:23) Outward thought in I know it sounds correct and I’ll explain that in a second because I actually have something further (1:33:29) If I may and I really appreciate you (1:33:32) Humoring me through these crazy times (1:33:35) I’m gonna I’m in a guided meditation about ten other people (1:33:39) with a (1:33:41) Psychic reader that I know who’s a good friend of mine (1:33:44) Actually, I I really went wide and deep for a while because I was really overwhelmed for a while (1:33:50) But we were in a guided meditation in a circle and we were supposed to go a guided meditation to see loved ones in (1:33:57) The past, you know someone’s who’s passed on (1:33:59) You know see someone, you know, see your grandma or your you know, your aunt or somebody right? (1:34:04) so yeah, so everybody’s going through and we’re doing the guided meditation and (1:34:09) You hear it and they’re talking you through it and all of a sudden I see this fine thin glass with a gold rim on it (1:34:17) You know those beer glasses that are super fine from Germany (1:34:20) They have like 0.5 liter written on them and you know, they’re just really thin and super gorgeous. Mm-hmm, and then I see this (1:34:28) Picture of wheat beer golden wheat beer being poured into it (1:34:32) Okay, and then from this side I see a black smelting ball (1:34:35) You know those smelting balls where it’s heated and then like you pour out the metal out of it (1:34:40) Yeah, and gold goes into the into the glass directly into the glass.So I get a gold rimmed glass (1:34:47) golden wheat beer and gold smelting poured into the glass like Goldschlager like the little (1:34:53) Flakes and I’m like, I can’t drink this. This is useless. Now.This is during a guided meditation to find loved ones in the past (1:35:00) Okay now (1:35:02) I’m just telling you this because this is what I experienced (1:35:05) I I don’t know what it means, but everyone goes around and we’re like, oh I saw my grandmother and I’m sitting here (1:35:12) I saw a picture of freaking beer and (1:35:15) Gold being poured into it. What what the heck like what am I gonna share at the end of this, right? Yeah (1:35:21) So I want to go last like I’m letting everybody go first (1:35:24) Everybody sharing these stories are beautiful stories of how they saw people in a meadow and fields and I’m like, oh my gosh (1:35:31) I can’t even do this, right? You know, I can’t even meditate right, right? (1:35:34) so (1:35:35) It finally comes to my turn. I’m the last person I go.I have no idea what this means (1:35:42) Not at all, but this I explained it I described it the psychic medium is the person whose house it was (1:35:49) She goes I can corroborate she gets up and walks away (1:35:53) Into the back room and I’m like, okay, and I’m like guys, this is what I saw. She comes back and she goes (1:36:01) Before you guys came over. I was dusting the counter the coffee table and I used this goosh scotch liquid gold (1:36:10) I don’t know how much more accurate that could be like I had a meditation of seeing exactly liquid gold this whole time and (1:36:20) She used scotch liquid gold to polish her table before we all came (1:36:26) There’s got to be a connection there, but I can’t imagine what that is (1:36:30) Is it possible that you caught a glimpse of it before and then it was in the closet? (1:36:35) She got it out of the closet and and thank you for asking that because that is a great question (1:36:41) Possibly.Yeah, possibly (1:36:43) But I have more I mean (1:36:45) Here’s one here’s the last one and this is where the simulation started really opening for me the simulation of the outward (1:36:51) Message in not me getting it, but actually being outward. There’s a (1:36:58) Let me say real quick. There’s a yeah, please.No, please theoretical physicist physicist named Vitaly venture in (1:37:05) who has this idea that the universe is a neural network and (1:37:10) He’s actually expressed the idea of this possibility of this interconnection (1:37:17) Between like nodes in the neural network to where there’s this (1:37:22) non-local (1:37:23) exchange of information and that you can become like a receiver of (1:37:29) knowledge that (1:37:30) Basically gets like impinged on your mind like the caution record like the Akashic records and things like that (1:37:36) it’s like I mean similar to that it’s it’s it’s like a (1:37:41) Physical theory that has mathematics behind it. That would be analogous to something like that. It’s pretty wild (1:37:48) Does Penrose talk about it too with quantum tunneling or is it slightly different? I I don’t I don’t know if Penrose (1:37:55) thinks that phenomena like that happen (1:37:59) but I imagine he’d say that if (1:38:01) If we did if we collected data and we found all of these reports and then it started actually seem like that happens that he would (1:38:08) Say well, it’s not surprising because realities quantum (1:38:14) At its basis.But yeah, this guy Vitaly he thinks I (1:38:19) Don’t even think he calls it, you know, he doesn’t think the mechanisms quantum (1:38:22) but he thinks that it’s something analogous happening at the classical level and that (1:38:29) He basically thinks like through like he has the same kind of model of kind of the self-organizing universe and (1:38:36) It’s almost like the the the neural network is something that’s like coming into existence (1:38:44) through the evolutionary process and as more there’s like a hidden layer that (1:38:51) you can possibly (1:38:53) tap into where there’s like (1:38:56) exchange of information (1:38:59) According to rules that wouldn’t you know make sense with like normal thoughts of causality (1:39:06) So the last last one I’ll share with you and then I’d love for you to just share a little bit more about your (1:39:12) stuff before you go and (1:39:13) Thank you so much for your time, man (1:39:15) And I really hope that we’ve started some kind of you know, at least you know communication back and forth (1:39:20) Yeah, it’s been a lot of fun (1:39:23) So my girlfriend corroborate this one, I mean it happens a lot of times (1:39:26) I’ll just do stuff. But this one was a very direct one. I actually avoided a car accident and (1:39:32) I was in Arizona (1:39:33) we’re on the highway and I’m in there’s an HOV lane, which is the outside lane where you can go for high occupancy vehicles and (1:39:40) I’m the one lane over from that and there’s a slight drizzle (1:39:44) there’s a pickup truck coming up on that lane and (1:39:48) Rapidly, you know coming to pass us on the left and something pops in my head trouble.This is I heard trouble (1:39:55) I look in the rear and I even said it to my guy said man (1:39:57) That doesn’t look right something bad is gonna happen (1:39:58) I don’t know why but I just said it out loud and it’s interesting because it’s not always I get millions of thoughts (1:40:04) It’s just whatever comes out seems to be where it finds the filter, I guess right? (1:40:10) so we start driving and all sudden I get an input to like I (1:40:14) Start muttering almost like a weird channel I go (1:40:17) No, that guy’s good. That guy’s in trouble that guy that guy’s not gonna go well (1:40:20) and I literally let my foot off the gas and (1:40:24) Instinctively put my turn signal on and move two lanes over (1:40:27) Mm-hmm, and I saw a flash of the truck coming across our lanes (1:40:31) Which is why I slowed down and just moved over just five miles an hour nothing crazy (1:40:36) But just like that enough, you know what I mean? (1:40:38) Like I got like told to do that (1:40:41) We come around the bend and there’s a car accident and that guy shouldn’t even have been involved in the accident (1:40:46) But he locked up his truck and actually came across all the lanes (1:40:50) Came across in front of us and I just came to a stop and I looked at my girlfriend. I went we’re good, right? (1:40:56) Everything’s okay.I (1:40:58) Go, I have no idea how that happened. But I was I was instinctively (1:41:02) told to do that (1:41:04) And she saw that that you guys she was basically she’s a passenger you saved (1:41:09) You saved her and yourself. She was a passenger (1:41:12) I and I and it was in I was in a like in that really unconscious zone (1:41:16) You know, you’re driving and like zoned out driving.Yeah, so I wasn’t like focused thinking about where I’m going (1:41:21) I was just kind of like and I think once again the openness allows that to come in in a way. Yeah. Well (1:41:27) One thing that could explain it in a way that’s less mysterious (1:41:35) But I still think super cool and I think this is happening all the time and explains a lot of these (1:41:41) Reports and it’s something that we should be talking about (1:41:46) The brain is doing all this kind of (1:41:50) Inference this Bayesian inference in this computational (1:41:54) processing of sensory input at this (1:41:57) Unconscious level the conscious mind is aware of only a little bit of that processing (1:42:03) So it might have been the case that something (1:42:07) violated a pattern some sort of (1:42:10) Behavior of the car the way it was moving some sort of trajectory that your brain just noticed at this (1:42:17) Holistic level something is not right here (1:42:20) Right, and it wasn’t that truck wasn’t the one involved in the accident.There was an accident already ahead (1:42:26) Which he got caught up in. Oh (1:42:29) Okay, see so there was already a pile up ahead (1:42:32) Which actually compelled him to slow to step on the brakes which came had him come across (1:42:38) It like I said, he wasn’t the one who did he wasn’t the one who really started the accident. He was just involved in it (1:42:45) It’s weird, but his but his his behavior was also yeah, maybe a concert.It was definitely that would alert (1:42:54) pattern (1:42:54) Yeah, so he might have saw something and then you saw how he behaved in response (1:43:00) Possibly. Yeah, and I do agree with you (1:43:03) I think a lot of it is some of us have this pattern recognition ability. That’s kind of part of the IQ (1:43:08) Right like pattern recognition.Some people don’t have it. So we’re able to take the pieces of information (1:43:13) Connect them either loosely or even more specifically and then come out to some kind of theory or hypothesis or (1:43:21) Something that we can then test (1:43:23) Unfortunately, we just can’t test this stuff right now, you know, yeah (1:43:28) The yeah there there could be ways to test it and that would be interesting for future science (1:43:35) For example of a thing that I would consider woo WU and not WLO. So it’s something that’s real (1:43:43) So this would be two examples of mine reading but once I explain it to you, then you’re like, okay (1:43:47) That’s a rational explanation, but I think this is going on a lot (1:43:52) So (1:43:53) Let’s say some friend calls you and you have that experience where you’re like (1:43:56) Oh for some reason they just popped into my head and then they called and the usual skeptic (1:44:03) Explanation for that is this thing called frequency bias like well (1:44:06) You’re thinking about that person way more than you realize probably on a subconscious level (1:44:10) And when they called and you become consciously aware of it (1:44:13) I don’t think that’s what’s going on in some cases and I think some people have had a real (1:44:19) Compelling experience where you know, I have one of those I’ll share with you after yep (1:44:23) So there are a couple things that could be going on (1:44:26) When you understand the brain is being this kind of Bayesian inference machine where it’s (1:44:32) modeling (1:44:34) Things in the world including other people and other minds and it’s making predictions.So for example (1:44:40) It could be the case that let’s say I met someone at a party (1:44:45) 20 years ago and we had a discussion about let’s say we were drunk and we were talking about the the show Twin Peaks and (1:44:54) Then maybe we became really good friends and maybe we don’t even remember that first conversation consciously and then let’s say (1:45:01) There’s a Twin Peaks (1:45:05) Like a spin-off or a marathon, yeah, like that, you know Twin Peaks came back like a couple years ago (1:45:12) This might have happened with some people (1:45:14) but let’s say they see a (1:45:16) ad for it on the internet or commercial on TV without even knowing that primes their thought of the other friend and (1:45:23) that friend might have seen something similar the same commercial or an ad and (1:45:28) Without even remembering that that’s why they thought of you (1:45:31) You both were primed by a common stimulus and then they called you and that you never even recognized what? (1:45:37) You know is the causal (1:45:39) Like origin of that you could also imagine (1:45:43) let’s say that’s for someone you haven’t heard of heard from from a while, but maybe it’s someone you speak to you kind of regularly maybe (1:45:50) like your (1:45:50) your mom calls you on (1:45:54) Sundays and (1:45:56) Wednesdays and Sunday mornings and Wednesday around 7 or something and maybe you don’t recognize that pattern because it’s not really planned (1:46:03) it’s just that she has nothing she’s off work on those days and maybe has like a sort of routine and (1:46:11) Then so like you don’t talk about the actual schedule. She just happens to call on those times. Yeah (1:46:16) Yeah, and then you might be registering a pattern unconsciously because we’re learning patterns all the time and then maybe they don’t (1:46:23) Call once on time (1:46:25) They call like a minute late and like you had the thought of them when they normally call and then they call right after that (1:46:31) What I’m saying is basically we model other agents and then they become little characters in our heads (1:46:37) and they have those patterns and those things we’re basically our mind is a community of (1:46:43) agents and they kind of (1:46:45) interact and communicate with each other so there’s a lot of room for like mind reading once we (1:46:51) Understand that we make these little copies of people in our heads and there’s a whole realm of science.There’s a whole new (1:46:59) World of psychology like (1:47:02) that we can explore when people start (1:47:04) Taking seriously the fact that we model other minds and that our minds really are these communities of agents (1:47:11) And that we see that with our dreams, you know (1:47:13) Are we our friends come alive in our dreams and they have their distinct personalities all that stuff’s encoded (1:47:20) I can tell you one story (1:47:23) Of something I you know, just kind of like a trivial story (1:47:26) I think I’ve had more stories. I’ve had some crazy stories and I have to actually think about it to try to remember them (1:47:32) I imagine a lot of them are like weird enough to where like I haven’t discussed them because I would think you know (1:47:38) I’m gonna lose credibility if I talk about this, but this is just one example based on (1:47:42) What we were just if I may even just before that just let’s jump in there because credibility wise we’re discussing them because we don’t (1:47:51) Understand their believe them. Yeah, we’re just acknowledging that we had an experience (1:47:54) An artist right an artist who comes up with a movie it’s still out of their quote-unquote imagination.What does it matter? (1:48:01) It’s still the experience of the art right? Like this is like an interesting type of artwork (1:48:06) Yeah (1:48:06) And that’s why I really need to write him down because I know I’ve had it, you know (1:48:10) At least a couple times where things so weird have happened that like I’m like this (1:48:15) I have no rational explanation for this, but this is something that’s not like that, but it’s an example (1:48:21) Of how weird it is that we model other people’s minds what I’m arguing is that we can use this maybe as like a strategy (1:48:30) for (1:48:31) Gaining something like mental superpowers and I’ll tell you why I use a provocative word like that. So (1:48:42) Yeah, well this guy Ramanujan so ultimately I’m gonna talk about it’s evolution, you know, we have evolution too, right (1:48:49) You know (1:48:51) Yeah, our brains. Yeah, like (1:48:54) Our minds there’s all these crazy things going on (1:48:58) We model other agents and they’re always kind of updating in our mind.So (1:49:04) We definitely have like a community when we make decisions. Also, I think we think about subconsciously (1:49:11) What the people in our lives would do or our role models given a certain situation? (1:49:18) So we’re always kind of (1:49:20) Decisions are made according to this kind of averaging like a statistical averaging of all the other minds that you’ve modeled (1:49:28) So you just mentioned Ramanujan or something? Is that yeah Ramanujan. So yeah, I’m gonna go there but yeah (1:49:34) So so one example of this that I think is pretty fascinating (1:49:37) Is I had a dream and Bjork was playing in the dream and Bjork’s one of my favorite artists (1:49:42) But the song that was being performed in the dream was not any song in her catalog (1:49:48) It was a original construction by my brain and I’m a musician too.So maybe it’s less surprising (1:49:55) You do by the way, I’m a singer. So maybe we can come awesome. Yeah, that’d be cool (1:49:59) So yeah, so I’ve I’ve made music that’s you know (1:50:02) I attempt to make as brilliant as hers, but this sounded full-on like the best most, you know, interestingly intricately (1:50:11) Orchestrated Bjork song I ever heard with her singing in like standard Bjork (1:50:19) Style in an avian or something (1:50:21) Yeah, yeah, and just the the quirks and her style right like her (1:50:26) It was weird and it was her it wasn’t something that I could consciously come up with in a moment (1:50:33) It’s something that like would seem like it would have to be created by her brain (1:50:38) But what I think my brain has done is created this, you know (1:50:43) model of Bjork through listening to all of her music to where there’s an agent in my head that thinks like her and then (1:50:50) suddenly I have (1:50:52) Kind of supernatural powers.I can create music. That would be Bjork’s best song if I woke up and I was able (1:51:01) if I had taken the time to like (1:51:03) You know because in this dream in particular I woke up and I could still remember it like I had a sense of it (1:51:09) It’s gone now (1:51:10) but I could have potentially written especially if that was something that was my profession in that like I like looked for (1:51:17) Opportunities like that. They always tell you to have like a have a piece of paper and your nightstand (1:51:23) Medians anybody in the arts has to have that to write down because they wake up with (1:51:27) Epiphany after epiphany.Yeah, just shot him down (1:51:30) Yeah, and like Stephen King is written, you know, I’ve seen when I was writing my book and (1:51:37) I have a novel that I’ve written that might come out next year (1:51:42) Basically (1:51:44) He said that it’s kind of like these stories are there and their totality and you’re kind of like a (1:51:51) like a paleontologist kind of like a (1:51:54) Chiseling away like uncovering like a full structure. That’s like already there like when you were talking (1:52:01) I’m sorry. That’s a Michelangelo’s thing about David was there (1:52:05) He just chip away the stone to reveal it right? Isn’t that the same philosophy kind of yeah (1:52:10) I mean, I guess that’s literally what he did.That’s it’s pretty interesting. I think that’s a copy of that, right? (1:52:15) I think he’s I think Stephen King’s plagiarizing. See I’m not a big fan.So no (1:52:20) But I think Michelangelo’s side it goes the art is there it’s just we had to remove the stone to reveal it or something (1:52:26) yeah, and it’s kind of like (1:52:28) Plato ish too. We had this idea of this theory of form. So it’s almost like there are these (1:52:34) abstractions that are (1:52:35) Perfect in there and they’re kind of being impinged on our mind and and Roger Penrose who you mentioned earlier does (1:52:41) Actually, he he does say that in the Emperor’s new mind if you look up in the index like Plato (1:52:46) he talks about how he thinks that’s how mathematicians get their understanding of the world, so my my my (1:52:54) modeling my mental modeling of Bjork gave me superpowers that (1:52:59) Abled my brain to construct this if we had sufficiently advanced (1:53:03) Neuroimaging connected to AI you could have translated that brain activity (1:53:07) Into the musical pattern into the construction of the whole thing.I mean that like you (1:53:13) Someday, we’ll get there and it’ll be really interesting (1:53:16) We are totally on the same literally on the same brainwave because I was gonna ask about fMRI right now, I’m wondering (1:53:23) It’s not at that level, but they can reconstruct what you were thinking and looking at like they did (1:53:32) Images with AI I’m wondering yeah, right. So I’m wondering I once again I have visions (1:53:37) I have a psychic medium who sees people I have people who talk to you know, talk to people (1:53:42) It’s I that’s what the claims are. That’s what they experience.I’m not staining. It’s fact, but the fMRI would be interesting (1:53:50) I wonder if they could draw a vision of that or a picture when I did see (1:53:53) imagining words, right (1:53:55) Imagine you could just while you were dreaming you have that hooked up and you have it hooked up to everyone you could see if (1:54:00) There were like collect your dreams kind of like that. I think that’s coming.I mean, I think I mean so (1:54:08) Well (1:54:09) To wrap up like the last thing I was yeah, I was gonna relate that to Ramanujan (1:54:13) So Ramanujan had all of these crazy theories. There’s some of his equations which weren’t (1:54:21) Validated until string theory was invented all of these crazy things that he had written down in this notebook (1:54:29) And he didn’t find (1:54:31) You know, he didn’t discover these mathematical principles (1:54:35) The way normal mathematicians do where they have this systematic thing where in and they construct (1:54:42) Equations that have proofs and you can basically derive the truth of these (1:54:49) equations from some some proof that that you’ve (1:54:53) Demonstrated that it’s logically (1:54:55) mathematically coherent and (1:54:58) So a lot of this stuff (1:55:00) like if you you know, there’s a movie about him and (1:55:04) If you watch it, you find out like the history like, you know, some of this stuff just sounds crazy on the surface (1:55:10) But there were mathematicians that it was either Cambridge or Oxford (1:55:14) like this one guy who is, you know, really well established who saw that it wasn’t nonsense and (1:55:21) Brought him over there. And so he became famous during his lifetime, but he died pretty young (1:55:27) I (1:55:28) think he got pneumonia or something, but um (1:55:31) He left behind this book and and since they’re not proofs for (1:55:36) some of the (1:55:38) Theories that he constructed, you know, people didn’t know what to think of him and then we find out like a hundred years later (1:55:46) that he was right about all of these things and and no one knows how he’s able to generate these ideas because it’s not the (1:55:54) normal method that any mathematicians use and (1:55:57) He it seems like the biggest missed chance to explore the psychology of (1:56:03) You know the the most interesting (1:56:06) Psychological phenomenon, it’s too bad (1:56:08) He wasn’t this people didn’t push at this point more (1:56:13) but he was asked like where did he get his ideas from and (1:56:17) He I think he was kind of like shy about like he didn’t want to tell any of you know (1:56:21) The people at the Ivy League school (1:56:23) Um (1:56:24) The real answer because he’d sound crazy, but he said he would get the answers from his God (1:56:31) Namagiri who I think was maybe some sort of (1:56:35) manifestation of Shiva like somehow related to Shiva, but he had a Hindu God and (1:56:40) He would either have visions or dreams and he would get (1:56:43) these mathematical insights from his God and what I think is that (1:56:49) It’s possible to model abstract deities (1:56:53) And then you start to think like they think and it can actually (1:56:58) lead to like information that would be God like yeah epiphanies and (1:57:04) Then that leads me to think that we could (1:57:09) Playfully construct these deities and like start to mentally model.I’m like, what would this person? What would be their characteristics? (1:57:16) how would they think and then our (1:57:18) Our subconscious so (1:57:19) Yeah, cuz you literally bring yourself in the shoes of great like it’s like if you put yourself in the shoes of Superman (1:57:25) You could lift a car right like that can’t same kind of like mental (1:57:30) Overcoming of whatever that if you pretty you thought you were Superman and you lived life like that and you would yeah (1:57:37) I mean if you we’ve had people do super natural feet. I mean, I feel like (1:57:42) Yeah, people like David Goggins. I feel like they probably use strategies like that (1:57:46) I mean the power of belief drives you to have a certain tenacity (1:57:52) That can basically make whatever you believe kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy (1:57:58) Yeah, and Ford even said he goes whether you believe it or not.You’re right (1:58:02) Yeah, right whether you believe or whether you believe it can happen or not (1:58:05) You’re right because if you don’t believe it can happen, you’re definitely not gonna make it happen (1:58:09) Yeah, I believe it can happen. You probably can make it happen, right? (1:58:12) So I know you shared so much time with me and I’m sure we’re gonna talk again (1:58:16) would you want to touch up on your new book and your and the quick worldview piece before we close it because I’m just so (1:58:22) grateful for you for the time you shared and (1:58:24) Please tell us how we can get in contact with you and then and we can close on that and call it a night (1:58:29) Yeah, check out my sub stack road to Omega. So it’s basically (1:58:33) the theory that the universe is headed towards this self-aware state called the Omega point and (1:58:37) that point is reached by like the continual progress of life and (1:58:41) The kind of expansion of intelligent agents outward into the cosmos creating this integrated (1:58:48) Intelligent network, that would be something like a cosmic mind (1:58:53) Distributed mind the size of the universe (1:58:56) That’s already happened to some degree on a planetary scale (1:59:00) We formed this thing that’s been called by to our day started in the newest fear (1:59:05) It’s kind of the collective intelligence that emerges from (1:59:09) The human civilization connected by our communication technology, and so it’s called Road to Omega because basically (1:59:18) Self-aware agents like once we become conscious of this process then (1:59:22) we (1:59:24) we’re part of the process and in becoming conscious of the process is part of the process itself and (1:59:31) Then we have to direct our actions.We have to live in such a way to (1:59:36) Continue this process and help the universe wake up or allow, you know (1:59:42) Enable we have to pay it forward. Oh for your eyes pay it back. We do.Yeah, I guess it’s yeah (1:59:48) I’m paying it back in paying it forward and (1:59:52) So the view is one where life has this meaning and purpose but the way I’m framing it I’m (2:00:00) First of all mapping the story on the concepts from Eastern and Western religion (2:00:04) but then I’m taking those concepts and showing how it’s the story of a of a cosmic game and (2:00:10) Alan Watts is a philosopher. That’s all this parallel between Eastern religions and also looking at it from this game type perspective (2:00:16) and when you look at it from that perspective life becomes kind of (2:00:21) psychedelic and and (2:00:23) Not just it’s not just that it makes life trippier, but you start to (2:00:28) Be conscious about your goals and the way you act so it’s kind of like a system for self-optimization (2:00:34) And the way you play the game best is realizing that we’re all in it together (2:00:40) And so we want to we want to basically convert what are called non zero (2:00:44) I mean zero some games which are competitive games where there’s winners and losers (2:00:48) into (2:00:49) Positive some or non zero some games that are cooperative games (2:00:54) So basically we’re all in it together and to solve the existential challenges we face (2:01:01) All the nations have to come together as like a coherent whole under this meaningful and purposeful world view (2:01:07) I think this is the world view that can do it by basically (2:01:10) Showing a correspondence between universal truths between all the religions and then turning that into something like a game (2:01:18) But it’s not a selfish game. It’s a cooperative game where we understand that (2:01:24) What’s good for the individual? (2:01:26) Ultimately should be is also what’s good for the whole and vice versa and (2:01:34) We really need this mentality right now more than ever because (2:01:38) everything’s more we’re more divided and politically polarized and you’ve ever been in recent times and (2:01:46) The good news is that those conditions (2:01:50) All that chaos is kind of what creates the conditions for the world view like this to emerge (2:01:56) it’s part of this process of (2:01:59) Finding solutions to problems this evolutionary process.So I think this world view (2:02:04) Will have success, you know, it will inevitably be the world view of (2:02:10) Humanity, but we don’t want to go through a disaster in a civilization (2:02:16) Civilizational collapse to learn that that a world view of unity is the right one. So (2:02:22) We’re on a trajectory towards collapse, but the trajectory also (2:02:28) favors (2:02:30) adaptive agents that (2:02:31) Recognize and you know this trajectory and averted so the the trajectory is one of progress (2:02:38) But progress occurs by humans trying to avoid disaster (2:02:44) So, yeah, that’s what the new book is about (2:02:47) basically saying that the evolutionary process is (2:02:50) spiritual because it’s a process of nature coming to understand itself through us and (2:02:56) We have this cosmic responsibility to see that that process continues (2:03:01) That’s awesome. Are you familiar with Samuel T Wilkinson by any chance? No, I don’t think so (2:03:07) Okay, so I had the I the honor of seeing him at Freedom Fest actually a couple days ago and he’s a Yale psychologist (2:03:13) He just wrote a book called purpose what evolution and human nature imply about the meaning of our existence (2:03:20) I love the time and he actually came he came to your exact kind of not conclusion (2:03:25) But just general conclusion of we started with the individual the selfish right the selfish gene (2:03:30) even we spoke at Dawkins in the selfish gene and (2:03:33) It’s the selflessness the compassion that is gonna allow us to actually expand because once we start thinking (2:03:40) Individually, it’s great.We got to put a mask on ourselves, but that’s only so we can help put the mask on the other person (2:03:46) It’s not to let the other person die in first so we can live (2:03:49) We need to still follow through with that other part, right? (2:03:52) That’s second part (2:03:53) Perhaps I can get you to in touch because I I do have a podcast upcoming with him and maybe that might be a very interesting (2:03:59) Conversation I can share with you the link to his book or whatever. Yeah, it sounds very cool. Totally in line, but I just (2:04:07) I’m I’m just so grateful for the conversation.Like I said this week has been absolutely amazing for me (2:04:12) I just am so grateful for you (2:04:15) because I’m just starting out here trying to make an impact and I just want to share your vision and (2:04:22) I got to speak with Michael Schellenberger for 15 minutes and I got to speak with Brett Weinstein ask him a question this week (2:04:27) And Mihaela, oh, yeah. Oh Larry. I’m sorry.Oh Leroy. She’s an AI person and Richard (2:04:34) I mean, I have talked to all these people and (2:04:37) Bobby, thank you so much. You yeah, keep doing what you’re doing (2:04:41) There’s a lot of fun.I look forward to new episodes and (2:04:45) Let’s do it again sometime (2:04:47) Thank you so much. I look forward to that (2:04:49) I I hope we can start a comment corresponds about those other things you discussed because I I think I’ve got some ideas (2:04:55) I’m like already thinking about ways we can talk about the conspiracy stuff because I’ve been wanting to do that forever (2:05:00) So I even do some so Bobby Azarian. Thank you again (2:05:04) Do you have any finishing thought any final thought last word of wisdom for the youth to let us know where we’re going or what? (2:05:11) Where we’re headed or what we can do (2:05:14) And I think I’ve shared all my wisdom I’m always looking for more but uh (2:05:19) Yeah (2:05:20) Road to a mega sub stack has all these ideas.I’ll be posting something on that meta religion this week. So (2:05:27) sign up (2:05:29) subscribe (2:05:31) Support the sub stack the more support I get the more articles I can publish and (2:05:36) Yeah, I’ll be back (2:05:38) Yeah, and feel free to use the place from which everything came (2:05:42) Please feel free to use that because I found that just a great label lists like definition of everything (2:05:48) So it is Brahman. Yeah, check out the absolute by Hegel and Brahman and it’s the same thing (2:05:56) Thank you again (2:05:57) Bobby Azarian stick around because I just got to click this and make sure it takes but thank you again for joining me (2:06:02) on Knocked Conscious (2:06:22) I hate to leave you, but I really must say good night, sweetheart